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A couple of additions and clarifications
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First, consider the worldbuilding. Narnia appears to be mostly nature, with the inhabitants living in isolated little villages and hovels. There is nothing resembling civilization or large cities – with the sole exception of castle Caer Paravel (Which sounds similar to the characters Caer-Caveral from the ''Covenant'' books), where the rulers of Narnia reside. The same thing can be said of the Land, which appears to be sparsely populated aside from little woodhelvens and stonedowns, with the Lords residing in the grand castle Revelstone. The only time we get to see anything resembling civilization as we know it in the Narnia books is the [[ArabianNightsDays middle eastern-inspired]] Calormene – just like the only real city seen in the ''Covenant'' books is the middle eastern-influenced Bratairealm. ExpansionPackWorld is in effect for both series.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save - and where time passes differently. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to ''Prince Caspian'', with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles ''The Last Battle'' and ''The Last Dark''. Both involve the stars disappearing. In ''Narnia'' those stars are sentient, while in the ''Covenant'' books they’re somehow linked to the Elohim. In the end, the world ends, but it is recreated after. And in both cases, the main characters will live on in the other world, while they are dead in our world.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save - and where time passes differently. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to ''Prince Caspian'', with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles ''The Last Battle'' and ''The Last Dark''. Both involve the stars disappearing. In ''Narnia'' those stars are sentient, while in the ''Covenant'' books they’re somehow linked to the Elohim. In the end, the world ends, but it is recreated after. And in both cases, the main characters will live on in the other world, while they are dead in our world.
to:
First, consider the worldbuilding. Narnia appears to be mostly nature, with the inhabitants living in isolated little villages and hovels. There is nothing resembling civilization or large cities – with the sole exception of castle Caer Paravel (Which sounds similar to the characters character Caer-Caveral from the ''Covenant'' books), where the rulers of Narnia reside. The same thing can be said of the Land, which appears to be sparsely populated aside from little woodhelvens and stonedowns, with the Lords residing in the grand castle Revelstone. The only time we get to see anything resembling civilization as we know it in the Narnia books is the [[ArabianNightsDays middle eastern-inspired]] Calormene – just like the only real city seen in the ''Covenant'' books is the middle eastern-influenced Bratairealm. Brathairealm. ExpansionPackWorld is in effect for both series.
series. Also, while talking beasts are common in ''Narnia'', ''Literature/TheHorseAndHisBoy'' focuses on talking horses in particular, which may have influenced the creation of the Ranyhyn.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save - and where time passes differently. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to''Prince Caspian'', ''Literature/PrinceCaspian'', with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles''The Last Battle'' ''Literature/TheLastBattle'' and ''The Last Dark''. Both involve the stars disappearing. In ''Narnia'' those stars are sentient, while in the ''Covenant'' books they’re somehow linked to the Elohim. In the end, the world ends, is destroyed, but it is recreated after. And in both cases, the main characters will live on in the other world, while they are dead in our world.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save - and where time passes differently. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles
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Another important difference appears to be the role of the local God/Jesus equivalents. In ''Narnia'', Aslan is presented as unambiguously good. The Land’s Creator meanwhile is more ambivalent. In the Last Chronicles, he doesn’t even show up, leading Linden to theorize that he has simply given up on his creation. Although she later changes her mind, we as readers are never told what’s actually up, so we have to interpret for ourselves. By reshaping the world along with Linden and Jeremiah, Covenant has basically become a (re)Creator himself – suggesting that humanity no longer needs God. Also note the largely negative portrayal of the Elohim, whose name literally means "Gods". Pullman’s ''Literature/HisDarkMaterials'' is often described as an anti-Narnia, but maybe ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is the real deal.
to:
Another important difference appears to be the role of the local God/Jesus equivalents. In ''Narnia'', Aslan is presented as unambiguously good. The Land’s Creator meanwhile is more ambivalent. In the Last Chronicles, he doesn’t even show up, leading Linden to theorize that he has simply given up on his creation. Although she later changes her mind, we as readers are never told what’s actually up, so we have to interpret for ourselves. By reshaping the world along with Linden and Jeremiah, Covenant has basically become a (re)Creator Creator himself – suggesting that humanity no longer needs God. Also note the largely negative portrayal of the Elohim, whose name literally means "Gods". Pullman’s ''Literature/HisDarkMaterials'' is often described as an anti-Narnia, but maybe ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is the real deal.
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Text markup.
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There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to Prince Caspian, with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
to:
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save.save - and where time passes differently. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to Prince Caspian, ''Prince Caspian'', with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
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Adding my WMG
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The Viles seem somewhat similar to the Elohim in terms of being [[PureMagicBeings Pure Magic Beings]], nobody seems to know where they came from, and the two races are explicitly compared by Covenant in terms of their natural bent towards self-contemplation (which the Viles ended up abandoning). If the Elohim embody pure Earthpower, the Viles therefore embodied a different force which both mirrored and opposed Earthpower in a yin-and-yang sort of way. Unfortunately, the Viles got corrupted and subsequently destroyed (which may have been explicitly part of Lord Foul's plans to weaken the universe and the Arch of Time), and so whatever power they embodied survives only in the strange magics wielded by their descendants, which are apparently unique in the Land and its planet, and are explicitly stated to lie outside of Law and Earthpower.
to:
The Viles seem somewhat similar to the Elohim in terms of being [[PureMagicBeings Pure Magic Beings]], nobody seems to know where they came from, and the two races are explicitly compared by Covenant in terms of their natural bent towards self-contemplation (which the Viles ended up abandoning). If the Elohim embody pure Earthpower, the Viles therefore embodied a different force which both mirrored and opposed Earthpower in a yin-and-yang sort of way. Unfortunately, the Viles got corrupted and subsequently destroyed (which may have been explicitly part of Lord Foul's plans to weaken the universe and the Arch of Time), and so whatever power they embodied survives only in the strange magics wielded by their descendants, which are apparently unique in the Land and its planet, and are explicitly stated to lie outside of Law and Earthpower.Earthpower.
[[WMG: ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is a commentary on ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfNarnia'']]
'''This entry obviously contains MASSIVE UNMARKED SPOILERS for both series.'''
Let me start off with some facts about the author. While Donaldson is very private about his personal life and beliefs, we know that he grew up as a son of missionaries. It is safe to say that he must have been profoundly influenced by religion, yet from his answers in interviews, I don’t get the sense that he’s a Christian anymore. Indeed, the Chronicles even appear to have some jabs against Christianity. On other occasions, Donaldson has mentioned that the (very Christian) ''Narnia'' books had a big impact on him when he was a child, but that he didn’t like the books anymore when he returned to them as an adult. I think these facts are the key to understanding a number of similarities between the ''Covenant'' books and the ''Narnia'' books.
First, consider the worldbuilding. Narnia appears to be mostly nature, with the inhabitants living in isolated little villages and hovels. There is nothing resembling civilization or large cities – with the sole exception of castle Caer Paravel (Which sounds similar to the characters Caer-Caveral from the ''Covenant'' books), where the rulers of Narnia reside. The same thing can be said of the Land, which appears to be sparsely populated aside from little woodhelvens and stonedowns, with the Lords residing in the grand castle Revelstone. The only time we get to see anything resembling civilization as we know it in the Narnia books is the [[ArabianNightsDays middle eastern-inspired]] Calormene – just like the only real city seen in the ''Covenant'' books is the middle eastern-influenced Bratairealm. ExpansionPackWorld is in effect for both series.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to Prince Caspian, with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles ''The Last Battle'' and ''The Last Dark''. Both involve the stars disappearing. In ''Narnia'' those stars are sentient, while in the ''Covenant'' books they’re somehow linked to the Elohim. In the end, the world ends, but it is recreated after. And in both cases, the main characters will live on in the other world, while they are dead in our world.
As has been noted, the character of Thomas Covenant appears to be a deconstruction of TheChosenOne. Maybe pinning all your hopes on a person just because destiny says so isn’t a good thing. Thomas Covenant’s reaction forms a clear contrast to that of the Pevensie children.
Another important difference appears to be the role of the local God/Jesus equivalents. In ''Narnia'', Aslan is presented as unambiguously good. The Land’s Creator meanwhile is more ambivalent. In the Last Chronicles, he doesn’t even show up, leading Linden to theorize that he has simply given up on his creation. Although she later changes her mind, we as readers are never told what’s actually up, so we have to interpret for ourselves. By reshaping the world along with Linden and Jeremiah, Covenant has basically become a (re)Creator himself – suggesting that humanity no longer needs God. Also note the largely negative portrayal of the Elohim, whose name literally means "Gods". Pullman’s ''Literature/HisDarkMaterials'' is often described as an anti-Narnia, but maybe ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is the real deal.
[[WMG: ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is a commentary on ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfNarnia'']]
'''This entry obviously contains MASSIVE UNMARKED SPOILERS for both series.'''
Let me start off with some facts about the author. While Donaldson is very private about his personal life and beliefs, we know that he grew up as a son of missionaries. It is safe to say that he must have been profoundly influenced by religion, yet from his answers in interviews, I don’t get the sense that he’s a Christian anymore. Indeed, the Chronicles even appear to have some jabs against Christianity. On other occasions, Donaldson has mentioned that the (very Christian) ''Narnia'' books had a big impact on him when he was a child, but that he didn’t like the books anymore when he returned to them as an adult. I think these facts are the key to understanding a number of similarities between the ''Covenant'' books and the ''Narnia'' books.
First, consider the worldbuilding. Narnia appears to be mostly nature, with the inhabitants living in isolated little villages and hovels. There is nothing resembling civilization or large cities – with the sole exception of castle Caer Paravel (Which sounds similar to the characters Caer-Caveral from the ''Covenant'' books), where the rulers of Narnia reside. The same thing can be said of the Land, which appears to be sparsely populated aside from little woodhelvens and stonedowns, with the Lords residing in the grand castle Revelstone. The only time we get to see anything resembling civilization as we know it in the Narnia books is the [[ArabianNightsDays middle eastern-inspired]] Calormene – just like the only real city seen in the ''Covenant'' books is the middle eastern-influenced Bratairealm. ExpansionPackWorld is in effect for both series.
There are similarities in the storylines too. Both series involve everyday people from our world ending up in a fantasy world which they are expected to save. Both involve an unnatural winter caused by the villain. Other similarities like mystical trees, magical rings and a sea voyage are probably just a coincidence as those are very common tropes, but I’ll mention them for the record. Narnia has a giant who will end the world when he wakes up – just like the ''Covenant'' books have the Worm of the World’s End. The Second Chronicles begins very similar to Prince Caspian, with Covenant returning to the Land and finding that thousands of years have passed and that his beloved land has completely gone to hell.
Both series conclude with the end of the world, described in books with the very similar titles ''The Last Battle'' and ''The Last Dark''. Both involve the stars disappearing. In ''Narnia'' those stars are sentient, while in the ''Covenant'' books they’re somehow linked to the Elohim. In the end, the world ends, but it is recreated after. And in both cases, the main characters will live on in the other world, while they are dead in our world.
As has been noted, the character of Thomas Covenant appears to be a deconstruction of TheChosenOne. Maybe pinning all your hopes on a person just because destiny says so isn’t a good thing. Thomas Covenant’s reaction forms a clear contrast to that of the Pevensie children.
Another important difference appears to be the role of the local God/Jesus equivalents. In ''Narnia'', Aslan is presented as unambiguously good. The Land’s Creator meanwhile is more ambivalent. In the Last Chronicles, he doesn’t even show up, leading Linden to theorize that he has simply given up on his creation. Although she later changes her mind, we as readers are never told what’s actually up, so we have to interpret for ourselves. By reshaping the world along with Linden and Jeremiah, Covenant has basically become a (re)Creator himself – suggesting that humanity no longer needs God. Also note the largely negative portrayal of the Elohim, whose name literally means "Gods". Pullman’s ''Literature/HisDarkMaterials'' is often described as an anti-Narnia, but maybe ''The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'' is the real deal.
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Moving to proper title.
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[[WMG: Why doesn't Foul just get a white gold object from his minons?]]
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have one of them buy or steal something made of white gold and just give it to him? We know he can pull people into The Land. So they get him white gold, they deliver it to him, he uses it to break shit, PROFIT!
* While people within the Land can occasionally summon people from our world, it seems like the Creator has some influence over exactly who they get; he was the one who chose Covenant to be sent over, not Lord Foul or Drool Rockworm.
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach into the "real" world is extremely limited, and he was only able to pull ''that'' off after Drool weakened the barriers by summoning Covenant (the spell to summon Covenant was probably just targeted to grab "somebody with white gold on their person" and the Creator intervened to determine exactly who it got). Most of his followers in the "real" world also appear to be deeply damaged people ''a la'' Joan who would be very hard to push into ''anything'' that doesn't play into their particular insanity (he has this exact problem with Joan in the Last Chronicles; she was so broken that even being possessed by a Raver was only sufficient to prod her in the general direction Foul wanted, and was certainly in no condition to use her ring to its full potential). That's even assuming Foul has more than the one cult. Carrying out that level of a plan in the "real" world may simply be unfeasible for Foul to pull off.
** It's also worth noting that the "steal" part wouldn't work in the first place, since a white gold object only has its full power in the hands of its rightful owner (which is why Foul is so determined to get Covenant to fork over the ring of his own free will in the First and Second chronicles, instead of just possessing him or some such). To destroy the Arch of Time, Foul needs every bit of wild magic he can get. Stolen white gold would probably work fine for Kasreyn's purposes, though.
----
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside the world of The Land, Where does Berek manage to get his ring? I thought for sure that [[spoiler: Linden was going to give him Covenant's Ring at some point, since that would fit the lore and explain how Berek could have one]], but that didn't happen either.
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having been any ''actual'' white gold wielders in the Land prior to Covenant (and if such an object had existed in the Land, the question of what happened to it and why Foul hadn't already gotten a hold of it would have to be answered). Covenant resembles Berek because they're missing the same fingers, not because they used the same talisman of power.
----
FridgeBrilliance: Why would a former English teacher give characters in his first novel goofy, awkward names like Lord Foul and Drool Rockworm? The opening chapters of LFB imply that, before contracting leprosy, Covenant was a hack fantasy author. (Indeed, he was also famous enough for Hollywood to make a movie out of one of his stories, according to the words of Troy in TIW.) Since Donaldson repeatedly insists on his website that the most reasonable explanation for the Land is that it is simply Covenant and Linden's delusion, it makes utter sense that a writer's imaginary friends (and enemies) would be limited by his own ability to write. Doesn't stop Drool, Foul, and Kevin from being dorky names, though.
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writing the First Chronicles now, he'd have given Foul a BilingualBonus name like he did with the Ravers, rather than the flat-out ObviouslyEvil MeaningfulName he actually ended up with.
** [[WordofGod "As for Lord Foul: as I've said before, I was young and unpublished, ]]had nothing to lose, and saw no reason not to be overt about my archtypal intentions. If I were starting the whole project today, I would probably want to be more subtle. However (he said ruefully), the name I most wish I could change is 'krill'. When I picked that name for Loric's dagger, I had no idea that it was a real word--or that its real meaning isn't even remotely useful for my intentions. <sigh> And the second worst name, from my perspective, is 'Elemesnedene,' for the simple reason that the spelling encourages a grating mispronunciation. Who would guess from that spelling that I meant 'ele-main-DEAN'?"
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what was in Covenant's novels to draw terribly solid conclusions about him or the Land from them, beyond how their changing thematic content and darkness level reflected his own CharacterDevelopment.
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have one of them buy or steal something made of white gold and just give it to him? We know he can pull people into The Land. So they get him white gold, they deliver it to him, he uses it to break shit, PROFIT!
* While people within the Land can occasionally summon people from our world, it seems like the Creator has some influence over exactly who they get; he was the one who chose Covenant to be sent over, not Lord Foul or Drool Rockworm.
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach into the "real" world is extremely limited, and he was only able to pull ''that'' off after Drool weakened the barriers by summoning Covenant (the spell to summon Covenant was probably just targeted to grab "somebody with white gold on their person" and the Creator intervened to determine exactly who it got). Most of his followers in the "real" world also appear to be deeply damaged people ''a la'' Joan who would be very hard to push into ''anything'' that doesn't play into their particular insanity (he has this exact problem with Joan in the Last Chronicles; she was so broken that even being possessed by a Raver was only sufficient to prod her in the general direction Foul wanted, and was certainly in no condition to use her ring to its full potential). That's even assuming Foul has more than the one cult. Carrying out that level of a plan in the "real" world may simply be unfeasible for Foul to pull off.
** It's also worth noting that the "steal" part wouldn't work in the first place, since a white gold object only has its full power in the hands of its rightful owner (which is why Foul is so determined to get Covenant to fork over the ring of his own free will in the First and Second chronicles, instead of just possessing him or some such). To destroy the Arch of Time, Foul needs every bit of wild magic he can get. Stolen white gold would probably work fine for Kasreyn's purposes, though.
----
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside the world of The Land, Where does Berek manage to get his ring? I thought for sure that [[spoiler: Linden was going to give him Covenant's Ring at some point, since that would fit the lore and explain how Berek could have one]], but that didn't happen either.
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having been any ''actual'' white gold wielders in the Land prior to Covenant (and if such an object had existed in the Land, the question of what happened to it and why Foul hadn't already gotten a hold of it would have to be answered). Covenant resembles Berek because they're missing the same fingers, not because they used the same talisman of power.
----
FridgeBrilliance: Why would a former English teacher give characters in his first novel goofy, awkward names like Lord Foul and Drool Rockworm? The opening chapters of LFB imply that, before contracting leprosy, Covenant was a hack fantasy author. (Indeed, he was also famous enough for Hollywood to make a movie out of one of his stories, according to the words of Troy in TIW.) Since Donaldson repeatedly insists on his website that the most reasonable explanation for the Land is that it is simply Covenant and Linden's delusion, it makes utter sense that a writer's imaginary friends (and enemies) would be limited by his own ability to write. Doesn't stop Drool, Foul, and Kevin from being dorky names, though.
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writing the First Chronicles now, he'd have given Foul a BilingualBonus name like he did with the Ravers, rather than the flat-out ObviouslyEvil MeaningfulName he actually ended up with.
** [[WordofGod "As for Lord Foul: as I've said before, I was young and unpublished, ]]had nothing to lose, and saw no reason not to be overt about my archtypal intentions. If I were starting the whole project today, I would probably want to be more subtle. However (he said ruefully), the name I most wish I could change is 'krill'. When I picked that name for Loric's dagger, I had no idea that it was a real word--or that its real meaning isn't even remotely useful for my intentions. <sigh> And the second worst name, from my perspective, is 'Elemesnedene,' for the simple reason that the spelling encourages a grating mispronunciation. Who would guess from that spelling that I meant 'ele-main-DEAN'?"
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what was in Covenant's novels to draw terribly solid conclusions about him or the Land from them, beyond how their changing thematic content and darkness level reflected his own CharacterDevelopment.
to:
[[WMG: Why doesn't Foul just get a white gold object from his minons?]]
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have oneOne or more of them buy or steal something made of white gold and just give it to him? We know he can pull people into the characters is a WMG/TimeLord.]]
[[WMG: TheLand. So they get him white gold, they deliver it Land is, in fact, either some kind of manifestation of humanity's global, unconscious mind, or in some way linked to him, he uses it to break shit, PROFIT!
* While people withinit.]]
Evidence for this is that first of all, everything in the Landcan occasionally summon people from our world, it seems like the Creator has is in some influence over exactly who they get; he was way a manifest part of human nature, as has been ''more or less'' stated as such in the one who chose books. For instance, Lord Foul the Despiser is the manifestation of human self-despite (which is why he can't be killed - to quote Covenant: 'You can't kill Despite.'). More than this, as the series goes on we see the land feeding back into human minds on Earth, for instance creating a group of mad cultists in the real world that worship Lord Foul, and attempt to sacrifice Covenant to be sent over, not Lord Foul or Drool Rockworm.
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach intohim.
This also explains why the"real" difference in the speed at which time flows in The Land versus the speed at which time flows in the 'real world' is never constant. You can't simply say that ten years in the real world is extremely limited, and he was only able to pull ''that'' off after Drool weakened the barriers by summoning Covenant (the spell to summon Covenant was probably just targeted to grab "somebody with white gold on their person" and the Creator intervened to determine exactly who it got). Most of his followers one hundred in the "real" world also appear to be deeply damaged people ''a la'' Joan who would be very hard to push into ''anything'' that doesn't play into their particular insanity (he land, as it has this exact problem with Joan in the Last Chronicles; she was so broken that even been shown to wildly shift between twenty years being possessed by a Raver was only sufficient equal to prod her about thirty, and a decade being equal to millennia. However, if the nature of the human subconscious as a whole determines the nature of the land, then the rate of change in the general direction Foul wanted, and human subconscious determines the rate at which time flows in the Land. Some humans may also be more strongly linked than others, perhaps even with anyone holding White Gold being the most influential ( as evidenced by Joan's insanity causing temporal distortions in The Land from her bed in a psychiatric unit, while she was certainly holding her Wedding Ring ).
* "Twenty years being equal to about thirty"? ''Where?'' I think it has been established that 1 day inno condition the real world = 1 year in the Land (give or take some, as the seasons don't correspond to use any specific times of day). A decade in the real world has been shown to be roughly 3500 years in the Land, which is the time gap between each of the sub-series. From the start of the caesures in the Land, we can calculate that Linden gave Joan her ring to its full potential). That's even assuming Foul has more than back some 100 days before the one cult. Carrying out that level start of a plan in the "real" Last Chronicles, which fits with everything else. It all fits together (save for times of day and seasons).
[[WMG:High Lord Kevin is another transplanted Earthling.]]
Because in a worldmay simply be unfeasible for Foul to pull off.
of Bereks and Mhorams and Saltheart Foamfollowers, a bog-standard name like 'Kevin' demands explanation.
**It's Jossed. In ''Against All Things Ending'' the ghosts of all the Old Lords appear in Andelain, and Berek, Damelon, and Loric all regard Kevin as their own flesh-and-blood descendant. That his name is also worth noting that the "steal" part wouldn't work in the first place, since a white gold object only has its full power in the hands of its rightful owner (which is why Foul is so determined to get Covenant to fork over the ring of his own free will in the First and Second chronicles, instead of real Earth name may just possessing him be coincidence- or some such). To destroy he might be ''named'' after a transplanted Earthling we never heard of, for whatever reason. In any event, he's pretty clearly a native of the Arch of Time, Foul needs every bit of wild magic he can get. Stolen white gold would probably work fine for Kasreyn's purposes, though.Land.
----
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside[[WMG:When the Elohim say 'the world of has ended now'...]]
...they aren't messing around. No last-minute heroic exertions, no appeals, no second chances. TheLand, Where Land. Kaput. For our time-travelling heroes, this only puts an upper limit on how far forward they can move. But it does Berek manage to get his ring? I thought for sure that [[spoiler: Linden was going to give him raise a bigger crisis -- if Lord Foul's escape is inevitable, what kind of a man will he be when he does so?
** Er, Foul isn't a "man" at all. Depending on what view of the Land you take, he's either the GodOfEvil, Covenant'sRing at some point, since that would fit EnemyWithout, or the lore collective EnemyWithout of ''everyone'', and explain how Berek could have one]], but that didn't happen either.
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having beenin any ''actual'' white gold wielders in the Land prior to Covenant (and if such an object had existed in case, is pure evil. If he successfully escaped the Land, the question of what happened to it and why Foul hadn't already gotten a hold of it would have to be answered). Covenant resembles Berek because they're missing bad news for ''everyone'' (which is why the same fingers, not because they used Creator stuck him there in the same talisman of power.first place).
----
FridgeBrilliance: Why** In any event, [[spoiler: the Arch of Time comes down, but Covenant manages to trap Foul inside himself before Foul escapes, and then Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah recreate the Arch and the Land, so this is all kind of a moot point]].
[[WMG:Stephen R. Donaldson is a troper.]]
Where else would he have gotten the idea to make Covenant aformer English teacher give characters Time Lord?
[[WMG:The Land is a LotusEaterMachine.]]
The old man in the ochre robe is some sort of benevolent MadScientist who sticks emotionally scarred people into hisfirst novel goofy, awkward names like LotusEaterMachine so that they might work out their psychological issues in a controlled enviroment. Lord Foul and Drool Rockworm? The opening chapters of LFB imply that, before contracting leprosy, is just a challenge set up by the old man to give his involuntary "patients" a challenge.
[[WMG:Hurtloam is a psychedelic drug.]]
After Lena rubs hurtloam on his skin, Covenantwas a hack fantasy author. (Indeed, he was also famous enough for Hollywood to make a movie out spends most of one of his stories, according to the words of Troy in TIW.) Since Donaldson repeatedly insists on his website series noticing that sounds now have color, colors now have smells, et cetera. This is a common effect of LSD and similar drugs. It could be that his perception that his leprosy is all better is itself just a drug-induced illusion. After all, [[AgentScully nerves don't regenerate.]]
[[WMG: The Worm of themost reasonable explanation World's End is a baby universe]]
Supposedly the Creator had to include something like the Worm of the World's End as part of the Land because he wanted to create a "living" world, and all living things have to die someday. However, there's something else that living things do besides die: they ''reproduce''. In order for the Landis to be alive, it has to be able to have a child and then ''get out of the way'' so the child can become an adult. The Worm hasn't so much been "sleeping" as ''gestating'' - and now it's awake and ready to be born. When it's finished consuming the old world, it'll use all that it energy to become a new one and start the cycle over again. And I suspect that Jeremiah is simply going to be involved somehow - it's not just because of Linden that the Land's remaining defenders (such as the Ranyhyn and the Dead) have been willing to sacrifice everything to save him.
* [[spoiler: Unconfirmed. The Worm succeeds in destroying the Arch and the Land, and then goes back into hibernation; if it's a new universe, it's probably not mature yet. Jeremiah ''is'' essential in recreating the Arch and the Land, however]].
[[WMG: The Viles were related to the Elohim]]
The Viles seem somewhat similar to the Elohim in terms of being [[PureMagicBeings Pure Magic Beings]], nobody seems to know where they came from, and the two races are explicitly compared by Covenantand Linden's delusion, it makes utter sense that a writer's imaginary friends (and enemies) would be limited by his own ability to write. Doesn't stop Drool, Foul, and Kevin from being dorky names, though.
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writingin terms of their natural bent towards self-contemplation (which the First Chronicles now, he'd have given Foul a BilingualBonus name like he did with the Ravers, rather than the flat-out ObviouslyEvil MeaningfulName he actually Viles ended up with.
** [[WordofGod "As forabandoning). If the Elohim embody pure Earthpower, the Viles therefore embodied a different force which both mirrored and opposed Earthpower in a yin-and-yang sort of way. Unfortunately, the Viles got corrupted and subsequently destroyed (which may have been explicitly part of Lord Foul: as I've said before, I was young Foul's plans to weaken the universe and unpublished, ]]had nothing to lose, the Arch of Time), and saw no reason not to be overt about my archtypal intentions. If I were starting so whatever power they embodied survives only in the whole project today, I would probably want to be more subtle. However (he said ruefully), the name I most wish I could change is 'krill'. When I picked that name for Loric's dagger, I had no idea that it was a real word--or that its real meaning isn't even remotely useful for my intentions. <sigh> And the second worst name, from my perspective, is 'Elemesnedene,' for the simple reason that the spelling encourages a grating mispronunciation. Who would guess from that spelling that I meant 'ele-main-DEAN'?"
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what wasstrange magics wielded by their descendants, which are apparently unique in Covenant's novels to draw terribly solid conclusions about him or the Land from them, beyond how their changing thematic content and darkness level reflected his own CharacterDevelopment.
its planet, and are explicitly stated to lie outside of Law and Earthpower.
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have one
[[WMG: The
* While people within
Evidence for this is that first of all, everything in the Land
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach into
This also explains why the
* "Twenty years being equal to about thirty"? ''Where?'' I think it has been established that 1 day in
[[WMG:High Lord Kevin is another transplanted Earthling.]]
Because in a world
**
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside
...they aren't messing around. No last-minute heroic exertions, no appeals, no second chances. The
** Er, Foul isn't a "man" at all. Depending on what view of the Land you take, he's either the GodOfEvil, Covenant's
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having been
FridgeBrilliance: Why
[[WMG:Stephen R. Donaldson is a troper.]]
Where else would he have gotten the idea to make Covenant a
[[WMG:The Land is a LotusEaterMachine.]]
The old man in the ochre robe is some sort of benevolent MadScientist who sticks emotionally scarred people into his
[[WMG:Hurtloam is a psychedelic drug.]]
After Lena rubs hurtloam on his skin, Covenant
[[WMG: The Worm of the
Supposedly the Creator had to include something like the Worm of the World's End as part of the Land because he wanted to create a "living" world, and all living things have to die someday. However, there's something else that living things do besides die: they ''reproduce''. In order for the Land
* [[spoiler: Unconfirmed. The Worm succeeds in destroying the Arch and the Land, and then goes back into hibernation; if it's a new universe, it's probably not mature yet. Jeremiah ''is'' essential in recreating the Arch and the Land, however]].
[[WMG: The Viles were related to the Elohim]]
The Viles seem somewhat similar to the Elohim in terms of being [[PureMagicBeings Pure Magic Beings]], nobody seems to know where they came from, and the two races are explicitly compared by Covenant
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writing
** [[WordofGod "As for
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what was
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Moving to proper title.
Added DiffLines:
[[WMG: Why doesn't Foul just get a white gold object from his minons?]]
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have one of them buy or steal something made of white gold and just give it to him? We know he can pull people into The Land. So they get him white gold, they deliver it to him, he uses it to break shit, PROFIT!
* While people within the Land can occasionally summon people from our world, it seems like the Creator has some influence over exactly who they get; he was the one who chose Covenant to be sent over, not Lord Foul or Drool Rockworm.
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach into the "real" world is extremely limited, and he was only able to pull ''that'' off after Drool weakened the barriers by summoning Covenant (the spell to summon Covenant was probably just targeted to grab "somebody with white gold on their person" and the Creator intervened to determine exactly who it got). Most of his followers in the "real" world also appear to be deeply damaged people ''a la'' Joan who would be very hard to push into ''anything'' that doesn't play into their particular insanity (he has this exact problem with Joan in the Last Chronicles; she was so broken that even being possessed by a Raver was only sufficient to prod her in the general direction Foul wanted, and was certainly in no condition to use her ring to its full potential). That's even assuming Foul has more than the one cult. Carrying out that level of a plan in the "real" world may simply be unfeasible for Foul to pull off.
** It's also worth noting that the "steal" part wouldn't work in the first place, since a white gold object only has its full power in the hands of its rightful owner (which is why Foul is so determined to get Covenant to fork over the ring of his own free will in the First and Second chronicles, instead of just possessing him or some such). To destroy the Arch of Time, Foul needs every bit of wild magic he can get. Stolen white gold would probably work fine for Kasreyn's purposes, though.
----
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside the world of The Land, Where does Berek manage to get his ring? I thought for sure that [[spoiler: Linden was going to give him Covenant's Ring at some point, since that would fit the lore and explain how Berek could have one]], but that didn't happen either.
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having been any ''actual'' white gold wielders in the Land prior to Covenant (and if such an object had existed in the Land, the question of what happened to it and why Foul hadn't already gotten a hold of it would have to be answered). Covenant resembles Berek because they're missing the same fingers, not because they used the same talisman of power.
----
FridgeBrilliance: Why would a former English teacher give characters in his first novel goofy, awkward names like Lord Foul and Drool Rockworm? The opening chapters of LFB imply that, before contracting leprosy, Covenant was a hack fantasy author. (Indeed, he was also famous enough for Hollywood to make a movie out of one of his stories, according to the words of Troy in TIW.) Since Donaldson repeatedly insists on his website that the most reasonable explanation for the Land is that it is simply Covenant and Linden's delusion, it makes utter sense that a writer's imaginary friends (and enemies) would be limited by his own ability to write. Doesn't stop Drool, Foul, and Kevin from being dorky names, though.
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writing the First Chronicles now, he'd have given Foul a BilingualBonus name like he did with the Ravers, rather than the flat-out ObviouslyEvil MeaningfulName he actually ended up with.
** [[WordofGod "As for Lord Foul: as I've said before, I was young and unpublished, ]]had nothing to lose, and saw no reason not to be overt about my archtypal intentions. If I were starting the whole project today, I would probably want to be more subtle. However (he said ruefully), the name I most wish I could change is 'krill'. When I picked that name for Loric's dagger, I had no idea that it was a real word--or that its real meaning isn't even remotely useful for my intentions. <sigh> And the second worst name, from my perspective, is 'Elemesnedene,' for the simple reason that the spelling encourages a grating mispronunciation. Who would guess from that spelling that I meant 'ele-main-DEAN'?"
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what was in Covenant's novels to draw terribly solid conclusions about him or the Land from them, beyond how their changing thematic content and darkness level reflected his own CharacterDevelopment.
----
We know Foul has followers in our world. Why doesn't he just have one of them buy or steal something made of white gold and just give it to him? We know he can pull people into The Land. So they get him white gold, they deliver it to him, he uses it to break shit, PROFIT!
* While people within the Land can occasionally summon people from our world, it seems like the Creator has some influence over exactly who they get; he was the one who chose Covenant to be sent over, not Lord Foul or Drool Rockworm.
* Per WordOfGod, Foul's ability to reach into the "real" world is extremely limited, and he was only able to pull ''that'' off after Drool weakened the barriers by summoning Covenant (the spell to summon Covenant was probably just targeted to grab "somebody with white gold on their person" and the Creator intervened to determine exactly who it got). Most of his followers in the "real" world also appear to be deeply damaged people ''a la'' Joan who would be very hard to push into ''anything'' that doesn't play into their particular insanity (he has this exact problem with Joan in the Last Chronicles; she was so broken that even being possessed by a Raver was only sufficient to prod her in the general direction Foul wanted, and was certainly in no condition to use her ring to its full potential). That's even assuming Foul has more than the one cult. Carrying out that level of a plan in the "real" world may simply be unfeasible for Foul to pull off.
** It's also worth noting that the "steal" part wouldn't work in the first place, since a white gold object only has its full power in the hands of its rightful owner (which is why Foul is so determined to get Covenant to fork over the ring of his own free will in the First and Second chronicles, instead of just possessing him or some such). To destroy the Arch of Time, Foul needs every bit of wild magic he can get. Stolen white gold would probably work fine for Kasreyn's purposes, though.
----
How did Berek get his white gold ring?
Since White Gold can only be obtained from outside the world of The Land, Where does Berek manage to get his ring? I thought for sure that [[spoiler: Linden was going to give him Covenant's Ring at some point, since that would fit the lore and explain how Berek could have one]], but that didn't happen either.
* Berek never had a white gold ring. He wielded Earthpower, not wild magic.
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, and going through the Second, everybody reacts to white gold and wild magic as something theoretical or prophecied, rather than something they might have actual experience with (or access to the histories of people who'd had firsthand experience). Nobody indicates there having been any ''actual'' white gold wielders in the Land prior to Covenant (and if such an object had existed in the Land, the question of what happened to it and why Foul hadn't already gotten a hold of it would have to be answered). Covenant resembles Berek because they're missing the same fingers, not because they used the same talisman of power.
----
FridgeBrilliance: Why would a former English teacher give characters in his first novel goofy, awkward names like Lord Foul and Drool Rockworm? The opening chapters of LFB imply that, before contracting leprosy, Covenant was a hack fantasy author. (Indeed, he was also famous enough for Hollywood to make a movie out of one of his stories, according to the words of Troy in TIW.) Since Donaldson repeatedly insists on his website that the most reasonable explanation for the Land is that it is simply Covenant and Linden's delusion, it makes utter sense that a writer's imaginary friends (and enemies) would be limited by his own ability to write. Doesn't stop Drool, Foul, and Kevin from being dorky names, though.
* I believe I've seen a quote from Donaldson where he said that if he was writing the First Chronicles now, he'd have given Foul a BilingualBonus name like he did with the Ravers, rather than the flat-out ObviouslyEvil MeaningfulName he actually ended up with.
** [[WordofGod "As for Lord Foul: as I've said before, I was young and unpublished, ]]had nothing to lose, and saw no reason not to be overt about my archtypal intentions. If I were starting the whole project today, I would probably want to be more subtle. However (he said ruefully), the name I most wish I could change is 'krill'. When I picked that name for Loric's dagger, I had no idea that it was a real word--or that its real meaning isn't even remotely useful for my intentions. <sigh> And the second worst name, from my perspective, is 'Elemesnedene,' for the simple reason that the spelling encourages a grating mispronunciation. Who would guess from that spelling that I meant 'ele-main-DEAN'?"
* Having just reread the First Chronicles, it actually never specifies what genre Covenant's bestseller was (or indeed anything about it other than that post-leprosy Covenant thought it was garbage). On the one hand, Covenant being a fantasy author actually adds further context and depth to his Unbelief (since he'd have reason to believe from prior experience that his mind was capable of producing a HighFantasy world), but on the other hand Covenant displays no particular knowledge of or insight into fantasy tropes beyond those he personally experiences. Basically, it boils down to the fact that we just don't know enough about what was in Covenant's novels to draw terribly solid conclusions about him or the Land from them, beyond how their changing thematic content and darkness level reflected his own CharacterDevelopment.
----
