History Headscratchers / TheHobbitTheBattleOfTheFiveArmies

###Orcs are a very tribal race, and it's established canon that they cannot form an army unless guided by strong hands (i.e Sauron's will and Azog's and Bolg's AuthorityEqualsAsskicking). Earlier in the movie their boss (Sauron) gets his ass royally kicked by Galadriel and banished, severely weakened, to Mordor. So now they no longer have Sauron's will to keep them strong (at least temporarily) and are solely guided by Azog and Bolg's authority. When both Bolg and Azog die, the Orcs descend into anarchy and chaos amongst their ranks and scramble.

** Given how crazy isolationist Thranduil acted, it does seem odd that he would particularly know Arathorn... However, he may have known him decades ago, ''before'' the Necromancer's influence began to really take hold in the forest. The absence of that threat would have made Thranduil less freaked, so he may have engaged in some kingly visitation to Men and Dúnedain (whom he's not really pissed off at), but perhaps left his son at home, not only to have someone in charge, but [[OverprotectiveDad to keep his only child safe within Mirkwood's borders]]. Knowing Arathorn would make him aware of Aragorn's heir to the throne status and he probably sent Legolas off figuring that his son might be able to help Aragorn fulfill his destiny. It gives Legolas something meaningful to do, and, after Thranduil screwed up diplomatic relations with other races so badly in the last few months, gives the Prince of Mirkwood an opportunity to reach out and possibly help to fix his father's mistakes - or at least, not the make the same mistakes with the humans and Dúnedain that Thranduil made with the dwarves. Perhaps Thranduil really learned a few things by the end of the film.

** Once [[AsskickingEqualsAuthority Azog]] died, the [[KeyStoneArmy Orc forces]] [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere realized it was time to bug out]].

** It's not as much that Orcs are smarter, but that Orcs are a race single-handedly focused on being brutal, war-like thugs, and always (in the movie's chronology) guided by the will of an ancient force of darkness. It stands to reason they know more about war than the elves. Particularly when it comes to Thranduil, who's been a CrazySurvivalist ShellShockedVeteran for a few centuries now and is probably out of tactical shape. All other commanders in the battle (Dain Ironfoot, Azog, Bolg, Thorin Oakenshield) have waged war much more recently than Thranduil (who hasn't warred since the War of the Last Alliance and is a tad off his rocker) and the fact is [[RealityEnsues evident]] in the battle itself, where Dain, Thorin and Azog show much more tactical proficiency than Thranduil.

** Once [[AsskickingEqualsAuthority Azog]] died, the [[KeyStoneArmy orc forces]] realized it [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere time to bug out]].

###Orcs are a very tribal race, and it's established canon that they cannot form an army unless guided by strong hands (i.e Sauron's will, Azog's and Bolg's AuthorityEqualsAsskicking). Earlier in the movie their boss (Sauron) gets his ass royally kicked by Galladriel and banished, severely weakened, to Mordor. So now they no longer have Sauron's will to keep them strong (at least temporarily) and are solely guided by Azog and Bolg's authority. When both Bolg and Azog die, the orcs scramble descend into anarchy and chaos amongst their ranks.

* In the last movie, Azog uses giant wereworms to dig his way underground and have a surprise assault on Erebor. Why didn't he use the worms to actually get ''inside'' the mountain and have a surprise attack on Thorin and co., as well as take away Smaug's treasure? Or use the worms against the human, elven and dwarven armies by digging the ground from under their feet?
** Presumably the worms can't dig through solid rock, so they can't get inside Erebor. As for the other question, it's not clear how much control the orcs have over the wereworms. It seems they can point the worms to a general direction and let them dig a tunnel, but digging the earth underneath a mobile army takes much more precision, and you have to be careful the worms won't hurt your ''own'' army in the process.
** It's also probable that the wereworms were not natural fighters, and thus would not take part in a melee against three different armies.
** Dwarves and orcs have had it in for one another for a very, ''very'' long time. If the latter have a history of employing wereworms as sappers, then the former probably built their city to be wereworm-proof.
** If there's anything in all Middle Earth that wereworms would instinctively fear and shy away from digging near, it's any place where the rock smells and tastes of ''dragon''. If they're as near-mindless as actual worms and can't be told that Smaug is dead, no amount of goading or poking with spears by a bunch of orcs behind them is going to get them to dig into a place where a huge cranky dragon's been snoozing for decades.

** As mentioned, it'd be impossible for Saruman to face Sauron 1v1 and the White Council is likely quite aware of this (even Galadriel, elder elf with a ring of power ''and'' packing the light of Earendil, nearly got herself killed in the process of ''temporarily'' expelling a ''weakened'' Sauron). Elrond talks about how they must hunt down and destroy Sauron but Saruman counter-argues that without the Ring of Power he can never achieve full power (and likewise, it is fruitless to attack him because as as long as the Ring exists, so will Sauron). Elrond suggests that someone warn Gondor and keep an eye on Sauron, which is where Saruman "Leave Sauron to ''me'''" comes in, as he's the one with the best diplomatic relations with Gondor. What he's telling Elrond is that he will keep an eye on Sauron and make sure he doesn't regain his former strength, via helping Gondor and Rohan strengthen themselves, until they can finally find and destroy the One Ring (or just keep him at bay forever). During the interim between the two trilogies, everyone trusts Saruman is doing his job and keeping Sauron at bay (as Sauron generally becomes much less active, a few Orc incursions in Gondor aside). This is why Gandalf heads directly to Saruman in ''Fellowship'' (besides him being his superior); Saruman is the guy who was supposed to be keeping an eye on Sauron, so Gandalf brings him info so they can plan the destruction of the One Ring, as Saruman's supposed to be the Sauron expert who has spent all this time holding Sauron off and must know his strengths and weaknesses, as well as the optimal way to beat him. His betrayal is what sidesteps the entire White Council and throws the entire thing in disarray (as Saruman allows Sauron and his army to grow almost absurdly powerful in secrecy, while the White Council all firmly believe Sauron is no threat and are in no way expecting ''a second'' army of Orcs from Isengard). Really, if Saruman had done his job, Sauron would be fucked. The central reason the War of the Ring was the mess it was is because Saruman covered Sauron's ass and then joined his team.

* At the start of BOFA, it's revealed that Bilbo had the Arkenstone all along--he grabbed it as he was fleeing from Smaug. And at the start of BOFA it makes sense for Bilbo to hang onto the stone, since Balin explicitly tells him it'll make Thorin's sickness worse. But why didn't Bilbo hand it over before then? He and Thorin are still on friendly terms. It's not just any shiny sentimental-value gem, it's the plot's Macguffin. And Thorin's madness hasn't moved into full swing yet--he's getting edgy, sure, but he isn't sitting around staring at gold without eating or sleeping and threatening his family members. \\
So why does Bilbo, quickly, readily and complete sincerity, lie about not having the Arkenstone ''before'' Thorin draws a sword on him? In the book he's a little bit more of a jerk ("now I really am a burglar") who eventually does the right thing, but in the movie Bilbo is friends with Thorin and he's a decent guy with some character growth--and here, with the Arkenstone, Thorin has a chance to rally the other Dwarven forces to help deal with Smaug on a rampage. If he'd found the Arkenstone at the beginning of BOFA, in the aftermath of Smaug's death, it would've made sense, but the timing of the theft as it is is just weird.

** It's probably because Mirkwood is in a slow, degenerative decline as the spread of Dol Guldor's evil increases. So there are likely still some places within or just outside the forest that the elves farm. Or perhaps they have supply trains, similar to the one in place for their wine, that caravan food right up to their door? It's not like they couldn't afford it.

[[folder: Bard trusting Grima Wormtongue]]
* Yeah, his name is Alfred or something, but let's face it, it's Grima. Why the hell is Bard giving him important tasks, like keeping night watch or escorting civilians to safety? The guy goes out of his way to show what a cowardly self-serving slimeball he is, and I think it was rather obvious even before, when he was Master's butt-kisser, so why is he assigned anything other than digging latrine pitches? And why isn't anyone trying to beat at least some sense and discipline into him?
** He ai't Grima. Grima at least had some backbone at the end.
** Bard probably realized that a life of butt-kissing and bureaucratic nonsense makes Alfrid unsuited for anything involving manual labor. He'd probably find a way to screw up latrine digging, or foist it on some poor old granny. "Night's Watch" was probably just something to keep him out of the way. Everyone else was too busy tending to the wounded to even spare a night's watch, so what the hey.

** [[WildMassGuessing Actually....]] for a moment the universe merged with ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft''. There were Dwarves, Trolls, Orcs, Elves, Humans, and one Gnome fighting in front of Ironforge in Dun Morough. At that point the Dwarves mounted on their racial mounts and rode to the bad guy.

** It's an unfortunate but consistent aspect of PJ's Middle Earth that orcs are smarter than other races. Yes, smarter. In all battles shown (beside the introduction to the first trilogy) the orcs use intelligent tactics, combined arms and siege equipment to great effect, while Men and Elves mostly just form a battle line, maybe shoot some arrows and then dive into the fray. Helm's Deep? the orcs bring crossbows to suppress fire from the wall, then set up tens of ladder to quickly storm the fortress. Pelennor Fields? they have trebuchets, siege towers pushed by trolls, armored trolls to use as shock troops, a giant purpose-made ram for the gate (meanwhile the army of Gondor is armed with 12-foot pikes while defending a wall). Battle before the Black Gate? The orcs stream out and surround the enemy before engaging. So really, it stands to reason that in PJ's Battle of the Five Armies it's the orcs that have an intelligent battle plan, while the good guys alliance throws away any advantage they might have had to start a chaotic melee.
** Because, don't forget Orcs are essentially Elves that the shadow has corrupted. And in Tolkien's mind, "modern" ie machinery, wheels, etc equals "corruption." It could be that modern military tactics hadn't yet occurred to the purer, uncorrupted races, whereas they came naturally to the spoiled orcs.

** Or the troll was fine up until a certain point in its life, then got into a cave in or some other accident that took off its limbs. Rather than waste a useful GiantMook, the able-bodied orcs fixed it up with some crude prothestics.
** As trolls are so often used as living tanks to bust up the battle-lines of much smaller races, it makes sense that they'd often get their lower legs hacked up in combat, and likewise their arms if they're reaching down to grab smaller opponents who are carrying sharp steel. That particular troll may have suffered enough wounds to require multiple amputations, but not quite enough to die or to render it not worth patching up.

* It was established in the first movie that trolls turn into stone when exposed to sunlight. So how can trolls participate in the Battle of the Five Armies in broad daylight? Yes, I know that some of Sauron's trolls, the olog-hai, are immune to sunlight, but I thought Sauron created those during his time in Mordor. Was he already powerful enough during his time in Dol Guldur to create olog-hai?
** The trolls seen in the battle can easily be Mountain trolls, which were olog-hai lite in the movies at least in that the sunlight didn't kill them and only irritated them. So it's likely that the trolls that were used in the battle were Mountain Trolls and not olog-hai.

* This only applies to the films, but why was the black arrow needed? They are the only things that can penetrate dragon scales but Smaug now has a bare patch, surely any arrow or sharp weapon can now kill him if he can make the shot. Thats honestly how I expected the film to go, that Bain would find where he hid the arrow, tries the windlance but fails, then Bard having got out of prison would try a last desperate shot using only his normal bow but manage to hit the weak spot and kill Smaug.

** Remember that nobody knew about Smaug's weakness; Bard knew it just a second before firing. Bilbo discovered it at one point, but had no chance to tell anyone who may make use of that info.

* Why does Thorin confide in Bilbo his suspicion about the arkenstone being stolen? Why does he consider Bilbo above suspicion?

** Or Thorin continued to underestimate Bilbo, believing that the apologetic, unassuming hobbit he hired wouldn't keep the Arkenstone from him.
** Because Thorin loves Bilbo like a brother at that point. Even in the midst of his madness some part of him understands that. Bilbo is the only one who has absolutely, certainly, and without question risked his life for Thorin's not because of familial duty, homage owed a king, or for material gain, but because he cared about Thorin and wanted to protect him. And Thorin knows that Bilbo understands how important the Arkenstone is to him. He sincerely doesn't believe at that moment that Bilbo would ever take it from him.

** Indeed, it would probably ''need'' to include Thorin's full series of titles and lineage, because dwarven naming conventions are such that there could easily be another "Thorin" in the world. Heck, there could be one or two Erebor-born refugees who were specifically named ''in honor of'' Thorin, back in the day: he was second heir to the throne when Thror still ruled, after all.

** Although it's called 'dragon sickness' in the movie, the curse did not appear to affect Thror until the Arkenstone was unearthed, at which point he began hoarding gold instead of letting it flow, and it was the accumulation that brought the dragon. Thorin only threw off the sickness some hours after Bilbo took the Arkenstone away. As the gem was buried with Thorin, if it is the cause of the sickness, Dain should be just fine.

* When the Lakemen are raiding Dale's armoury, we see plenty of well-crafted weapons, including shields and pikes. Yet when the Lakemen show up with the Elven army in front of Erebor, they're carrying makeshift spears and farming equipment. When the battle moves into Dale, only Bard, a couple minor characters, and a handful of men are using swords; everybody else is using the improvised weapons and the shields and spears are nowhere to be seen. Why don't the Lakemen use them?

* Why would anybody (and Bard in particular) keep trusting Alfrid seemingly important charges like night watch or keeping an eye on people, when he is a well known useless wretch that will scurry away from his duties at the slightiest chance?

** There's some time alterations in the film adaptations. In the Extended Edition of ''[[Film/TheLordOfTheRingsTheTwoTowers The Two Towers]]'', Aragorn reveals to Eowyn that he's 87. There's no TimeSkip in the film version of ''Film/TheFellowshipOfTheRing'', and it is mentioned that Bilbo carried the One Ring for sixty years. That would make him 27 circa the Hobbit trilogy by the film series' reckoning.

** There's some time alterations in the film adaptations. In the Extended Edition of ''Film/TheTwoTowers'', Aragorn reveals to Eowyn that he's 87. There's no TimeSkip in the film version of ''Film/TheFellowshipOfTheRing'', and it is mentioned that Bilbo carried the One Ring for sixty years. That would make him 27 circa the Hobbit trilogy by the film series' reckoning.

* After Thorin and Azog kill each other, we don't see any of the eponymous battle anymore; it seems like all the fighting simply ceased after the orcs lost their leader. This is not a similar case as in ''[[Film/TheLordOfTheRings The Return of the King]]'', where the orcs ceased fighting after Sauron's death, because Sauron had magical control over them. Even if the loss of their leader would be despiriting to the orcs, it happened in a remote place with no witnesses, so it would take some time before all the orcs would even learn about Azog's death. Realistically, the battle should still have continued for days. Also, it's not even properly explained ''how'' the other armies ended up defeating the orcs. Before the eagles arrived, the orcs were ''winning''. Even though the eagles caused some temporary panic, their number still seemed pretty limited compared to the giant bats, plus the orcs had all those other giant monsters on their side too. Once the initial surprise of the eagle attack was over, the orcs should've been able to regroup, use the terrain to their advantage and fight against the eagles and the other armies.

New entries are added to the bottom of the page. '''Spoilers''', naturally.

* At the start of BOFA, it's revealed that Bilbo had the Arkenstone all along--he grabbed it as he was fleeing from Smaug. And at the start of BOFA it makes sense for Bilbo to hang onto the stone, since Dwalin explicitly tells him it'll make Thorin's sickness worse. But why didn't Bilbo hand it over before then? He and Thorin are still on friendly terms. It's not just any shiny sentimental-value gem, it's the plot's Macguffin. And Thorin's madness hasn't moved into full swing yet--he's getting edgy, sure, but he isn't sitting around staring at gold without eating or sleeping and threatening his family members. \\

** Laketown is a town, not a big city, and its Master isn't the sort to spend money on civil buildings rather than on himself; it probably doesn't ''have'' a purpose-built prison. The room where Bard was locked up is probably just a storage room for trade goods, with bars to prevent pilferage. Luckily for Bard, it happened to be storing fabric or bales of wool when he was tossed in there.