Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
**** Actually there kind of is- the part needs to have been part of their body at the time of death. Other than that, yes, the lack of ressurection attempt(s) makes no sense.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Myrkul already had immortality. Like Bhaal and Bane, he also had a contingency plan in place to survive his possible death. He lost his divine portfolio to Cyric but retained a chunk of his power he'd stored in the Crown of Horns, and continues to receive worship and prayers by dominating the people who used the Crown and had them form cults dedicated to his worship. Which has allowed him to slowly rebuild his power, similar to how Bane hid inside of Xvim until he'd absorbed enough worship to restore himself, or Bhaal eventually resurrected when all his essence was finally collected back into a single Bhaalspawn (though it took awhile to get his full power back). (though of the three Mykrul's plan didn't restore him completely, as while he did regain some of his portfolio eventually, he's equivalent to Jergal and works under Kelemvor. Where as Bane and Bhaal both regained their full Godhood status and power.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Deleted or moved per the cleanup
Deleted line(s) 74,93 (click to see context) :
* In ''Mask of the Betrayer'', why why why why WHY couldn't Obsidian have at least included the ''option'' of [[spoiler: taking the Betrayer's Crusade to it's proper conclusion and trying to tear down the Wall of the Faithless?]] By that time, I was just as much invested in tearing down that abomination as I was in [[spoiler: removing the Spirit-eater curse.]] And yet, [[ButThouMust they railroad you into accepting that there's nothing you can do and just walking away without a word of protest.]] All it would've taken is [[spoiler: a dialogue option which lets you continue your attack, resulting Kelemvor destroying you, or ''something'' like that.]]
** Kelemvor is a powerful god who is in the very focal point of his power, and who probably has an obscene Charisma score. The fact that there isn't a "Wet your pants and run away" option is already a testament to your character's courage. Even Kaelyn knows not to push it.
*** They create an intense build-up to the [[spoiler: assault on the wall, including laying siege to the City of the Dead itself]], so that the player almost certainly must know full well they'll eventually have to face Kelemvor in some fashion to achieve success. Under such circumstances, giving the character no choice whatsoever but acceptance of the existence of a [[spoiler: gigantic wall where otherwise innocent people are tortured and dissolved for their beliefs]] is just plain sloppy writing, no matter how ferocious a presence Kelemvor might have. Even if you don't take an immediate stand and get blasted instantly for your impudence by Kelemvor, which should have been an option rather than ButThouMust -ed and handwaved out of existence, there is no way to even achieve an epilogue in which your character doesn't apparently completely lose interest in [[spoiler: the Wall of the Faithless]] the moment s/he has retrieved his/her soul.
*** Not all "residents" in the wall are innocents. The are many evil spellcasers who refuse worshipping gods. Ur-priests, many red wizards (who think worship is weak) and evil necromancers (especially those who tries to achieve lichdom and supposedly live forever) are prominent examples. But yeah, achieving oblivion in the most painful way possible simply for their belief is horrifying. What if they have a good reason to refuse the gods (like many RealLife atheists and NayTheists)?
** The whole Crusade was admittedly a rather badly-planned affair. Epic though your party may be, they don't quite have what it takes to take down a major planar structure. Given how long it takes to hack ''one'' soul out of the Wall, destroying the whole thing would probably take years. Still, most epilogues are open-ended enough that they allow for the possibility of your character returning a couple of decades later with another couple dozen levels and a MacGuffin and kicking Kelemvor's ass before destroying the Wall.
** This troper remembers all too well the anticlimax of all that. I was even fairly pissed for ages after experiencing that ending. Even ranted the ears off at a friend that's a D&D buff on how utterly sadistic the entire wall concept it. Suffice to say that the general opinion of the gods(in the forgotten realms at least) must all be a case of LightIsNotGood because quite frankly I can't wrap my head around all the -GOOD- gods actually condoning such a CrapsackWorld afterlife for anyone who's atheists.(Being an atheist, or close enough, made this troper feel rather offended as well, but then again this troper may not have been offended so much by it if not for the fact that the ending sucked)
*** About that, Kelemvor clearly states that when he first became god, he showed mercy to both faithless and false. But without the fear of the Wall, mortals were stopping to worship gods, so he had to switch back or gods would die (and mortals would soon follow them).
*** This is Dungeons and Dragons! I can achieve infinite damage with a fourth level artificer and a bucket of dirty water! Nothing is impossible to the truly audacious!
*** Ah, but this ''isn't'' Dungeons and Dragons. This is Neverwinter Nights. It's slightly harder to break.
*** A bucket of dirty water and loads of rules lawyering.
** This troper just wants to add on this rant. I was extremely pissed of that I couldn't choose to fight Kelemvor and die. Why there has to be a happy ending?
** There actually ''is'' an option to declare your intention to take down the entire wall. Kelemvore simply says he would teleport you home if you try it (presumable closing the portal you arrived by).
** Incidentally the wall no longer exists as of 4th Edition Forgotten Realms rules. There is no explanation either, it's just gone.
*** Which is extremely ironic (Myrkul would be in stitches), considering the actual, stated authors' reason for why they didn't allow the player to go ahead and fuck up the Wall was that... they figured [=WotC=] would never agree to let them do that on account of StatusQuoIsGod, and thus nixed the idea from the get go rather than gamble on developing the game in that direction only to be cock-blocked by the license holders 3 days from release.
*** The idea that the Wall no longer exists in 4th edition is a common misconception. More accurately, it's simply not mentioned in the single paragraph about the Fugue Plane, which more or less explains that Kelemvor hangs out there and he sorts the dead. It doesn't say what happens to any of them, it doesn't say the Wall was removed, and it doesn't say he doesn't imprison Faithless there still. It's just another example of the bare bones nature of the 4th edition version of ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms''. Saying that the Wall doesn't exist is like saying the Celestial Bureaucracy of TabletopGame/KaraTur doesn't exist anymore - that may be true, but we have no way of telling since the subject is simply never approached.
** According to Forgotten Realms lore, destroying the wall would be a very very bad idea. Not only you will kill all the only sources of all magic in Faerun but also you will allow demons and fiends to take over the Fuge Plane so every single soul that dies in a world with no more resurrection magic will end up feeding the ranks of the demons and fiends as the plane has no defenses and there would be no Gods to claim the souls...
** Well, there's got to be a better way to do it. Maybe instead of making a Wall the gods could just enlist the Faithless as front-line fighters against demons--a shitty enough fate to defer one from being a non-worshipper, but one that leaves the possibility of reincarnation after the gods decide you've redeemed yourself.
** It gets worse. According to this game Wall was never really InherentInTheSystem. It was Myrkul's invention, and Jergal did just fine without it. That suggests either Kelemvor hasn't thought of an alternative, or the other gods, even the "good" ones, ''like'' the idea and are making him keep it.
*** That second theory actually makes a good amount of sense. The Time of Troubles came about due to the gods outright neglecting their duties and ignoring the mortal's prayers enough that Ao, who usually doesn't give a crap about mortal affairs, stepped in and kicked the deities into mortality for awhile. If even the Good Gods needed punishment like that, it's not outside the realm of possibility they'd ALL prefer having the wall around to lessen their workload of making worship of them a good idea.
*** You've also got Kelemvor's reason for not just undoing the Spirit Eater curse from Akachi - he can't just go around undoing the judgment of a god, lest the planes learn about it. And something like tearing down the Wall (or even just not putting more souls into it) would absolutely get the attention of the rest of the planes. If the gods are to maintain their position as such, their word is law, their judgments absolute.
** Kelemvor is a powerful god who is in the very focal point of his power, and who probably has an obscene Charisma score. The fact that there isn't a "Wet your pants and run away" option is already a testament to your character's courage. Even Kaelyn knows not to push it.
*** They create an intense build-up to the [[spoiler: assault on the wall, including laying siege to the City of the Dead itself]], so that the player almost certainly must know full well they'll eventually have to face Kelemvor in some fashion to achieve success. Under such circumstances, giving the character no choice whatsoever but acceptance of the existence of a [[spoiler: gigantic wall where otherwise innocent people are tortured and dissolved for their beliefs]] is just plain sloppy writing, no matter how ferocious a presence Kelemvor might have. Even if you don't take an immediate stand and get blasted instantly for your impudence by Kelemvor, which should have been an option rather than ButThouMust -ed and handwaved out of existence, there is no way to even achieve an epilogue in which your character doesn't apparently completely lose interest in [[spoiler: the Wall of the Faithless]] the moment s/he has retrieved his/her soul.
*** Not all "residents" in the wall are innocents. The are many evil spellcasers who refuse worshipping gods. Ur-priests, many red wizards (who think worship is weak) and evil necromancers (especially those who tries to achieve lichdom and supposedly live forever) are prominent examples. But yeah, achieving oblivion in the most painful way possible simply for their belief is horrifying. What if they have a good reason to refuse the gods (like many RealLife atheists and NayTheists)?
** The whole Crusade was admittedly a rather badly-planned affair. Epic though your party may be, they don't quite have what it takes to take down a major planar structure. Given how long it takes to hack ''one'' soul out of the Wall, destroying the whole thing would probably take years. Still, most epilogues are open-ended enough that they allow for the possibility of your character returning a couple of decades later with another couple dozen levels and a MacGuffin and kicking Kelemvor's ass before destroying the Wall.
** This troper remembers all too well the anticlimax of all that. I was even fairly pissed for ages after experiencing that ending. Even ranted the ears off at a friend that's a D&D buff on how utterly sadistic the entire wall concept it. Suffice to say that the general opinion of the gods(in the forgotten realms at least) must all be a case of LightIsNotGood because quite frankly I can't wrap my head around all the -GOOD- gods actually condoning such a CrapsackWorld afterlife for anyone who's atheists.(Being an atheist, or close enough, made this troper feel rather offended as well, but then again this troper may not have been offended so much by it if not for the fact that the ending sucked)
*** About that, Kelemvor clearly states that when he first became god, he showed mercy to both faithless and false. But without the fear of the Wall, mortals were stopping to worship gods, so he had to switch back or gods would die (and mortals would soon follow them).
*** This is Dungeons and Dragons! I can achieve infinite damage with a fourth level artificer and a bucket of dirty water! Nothing is impossible to the truly audacious!
*** Ah, but this ''isn't'' Dungeons and Dragons. This is Neverwinter Nights. It's slightly harder to break.
*** A bucket of dirty water and loads of rules lawyering.
** This troper just wants to add on this rant. I was extremely pissed of that I couldn't choose to fight Kelemvor and die. Why there has to be a happy ending?
** There actually ''is'' an option to declare your intention to take down the entire wall. Kelemvore simply says he would teleport you home if you try it (presumable closing the portal you arrived by).
** Incidentally the wall no longer exists as of 4th Edition Forgotten Realms rules. There is no explanation either, it's just gone.
*** Which is extremely ironic (Myrkul would be in stitches), considering the actual, stated authors' reason for why they didn't allow the player to go ahead and fuck up the Wall was that... they figured [=WotC=] would never agree to let them do that on account of StatusQuoIsGod, and thus nixed the idea from the get go rather than gamble on developing the game in that direction only to be cock-blocked by the license holders 3 days from release.
*** The idea that the Wall no longer exists in 4th edition is a common misconception. More accurately, it's simply not mentioned in the single paragraph about the Fugue Plane, which more or less explains that Kelemvor hangs out there and he sorts the dead. It doesn't say what happens to any of them, it doesn't say the Wall was removed, and it doesn't say he doesn't imprison Faithless there still. It's just another example of the bare bones nature of the 4th edition version of ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms''. Saying that the Wall doesn't exist is like saying the Celestial Bureaucracy of TabletopGame/KaraTur doesn't exist anymore - that may be true, but we have no way of telling since the subject is simply never approached.
** According to Forgotten Realms lore, destroying the wall would be a very very bad idea. Not only you will kill all the only sources of all magic in Faerun but also you will allow demons and fiends to take over the Fuge Plane so every single soul that dies in a world with no more resurrection magic will end up feeding the ranks of the demons and fiends as the plane has no defenses and there would be no Gods to claim the souls...
** Well, there's got to be a better way to do it. Maybe instead of making a Wall the gods could just enlist the Faithless as front-line fighters against demons--a shitty enough fate to defer one from being a non-worshipper, but one that leaves the possibility of reincarnation after the gods decide you've redeemed yourself.
** It gets worse. According to this game Wall was never really InherentInTheSystem. It was Myrkul's invention, and Jergal did just fine without it. That suggests either Kelemvor hasn't thought of an alternative, or the other gods, even the "good" ones, ''like'' the idea and are making him keep it.
*** That second theory actually makes a good amount of sense. The Time of Troubles came about due to the gods outright neglecting their duties and ignoring the mortal's prayers enough that Ao, who usually doesn't give a crap about mortal affairs, stepped in and kicked the deities into mortality for awhile. If even the Good Gods needed punishment like that, it's not outside the realm of possibility they'd ALL prefer having the wall around to lessen their workload of making worship of them a good idea.
*** You've also got Kelemvor's reason for not just undoing the Spirit Eater curse from Akachi - he can't just go around undoing the judgment of a god, lest the planes learn about it. And something like tearing down the Wall (or even just not putting more souls into it) would absolutely get the attention of the rest of the planes. If the gods are to maintain their position as such, their word is law, their judgments absolute.
Deleted line(s) 96,105 (click to see context) :
* The whole concept of the "Trial by Combat." No matter how well you perform in court, you ''still'' get forced to have that stupid duel with Lorne. What kind of sense does that make? You prove another person's guilt (and, by extension, your own innocence) beyond any reasonable doubt, and yet they can still weasel their way out of it and get off scot free if they manage to beat you in a duel? AND YOU DIE? Yeah, it's made out to be some archaic law that everyone supposed to have forgotten about by now, but that doesn't explain why it's endorsed by ''the God of Justice himself''.
** It had to be possible for the PC to get out of hir mess (especially if s/he lacks social skills), and if they can demand the trial, than the other party has the right too...
*** Surely that's the whole point of Sand being there. If you don't have the skills, you let him take over. If you're terrible at diplomacy and you still try to represent yourself...well, you know the saying. Fool for a lawyer. You deserve whatever you get.
*** One could argue that Sand's social skills (epic snarkyness or not) are even worse than yours and "winning the crowd" was what the show was about. The evidence is there, but if you can't "sell" your innocence, than Sand won't be able to either.
** If it helps, this whole situation is entirely realistic, as such laws ''did'' exist in the Middle Ages.
** The devs admit the combat should have been skipped if the PC won.
** The God whose priest runs the court? Tyr. Tyr is the Norse god of single combat and in older versions of the setting it was the same god, not just an expy.
*** Except this isn't an older version of the setting. In this version, Tyr is the god of Justice. Proving your innocence and then having to fight a duel anyway (and dying because your opponent is a hulking, battle-hardened {{Determinator}}) is not justice.
*** Trial By Combat used to be a fairly common way of handling this kind of thing, and Tyr was god of both in Norse mythology. The game clearly treats it as an outdated and rarely used tradition (everyone is surprised when the Luskans invoke it, as if it were almost entirely forgotten).
** It's worth noting that trials by combat were only abolished in the UK in ''1819,'' after everyone was reminded that it was still a thing by someone requesting it the previous year. In that case, the murder suspect was released after his accuser decided he didn't want to fight. It's unfair, yes, but it has real-world precedents.
** It had to be possible for the PC to get out of hir mess (especially if s/he lacks social skills), and if they can demand the trial, than the other party has the right too...
*** Surely that's the whole point of Sand being there. If you don't have the skills, you let him take over. If you're terrible at diplomacy and you still try to represent yourself...well, you know the saying. Fool for a lawyer. You deserve whatever you get.
*** One could argue that Sand's social skills (epic snarkyness or not) are even worse than yours and "winning the crowd" was what the show was about. The evidence is there, but if you can't "sell" your innocence, than Sand won't be able to either.
** If it helps, this whole situation is entirely realistic, as such laws ''did'' exist in the Middle Ages.
** The devs admit the combat should have been skipped if the PC won.
** The God whose priest runs the court? Tyr. Tyr is the Norse god of single combat and in older versions of the setting it was the same god, not just an expy.
*** Except this isn't an older version of the setting. In this version, Tyr is the god of Justice. Proving your innocence and then having to fight a duel anyway (and dying because your opponent is a hulking, battle-hardened {{Determinator}}) is not justice.
*** Trial By Combat used to be a fairly common way of handling this kind of thing, and Tyr was god of both in Norse mythology. The game clearly treats it as an outdated and rarely used tradition (everyone is surprised when the Luskans invoke it, as if it were almost entirely forgotten).
** It's worth noting that trials by combat were only abolished in the UK in ''1819,'' after everyone was reminded that it was still a thing by someone requesting it the previous year. In that case, the murder suspect was released after his accuser decided he didn't want to fight. It's unfair, yes, but it has real-world precedents.
** Who says the Doom Guides who do know aren't going around warning people about the wall and teaching the others in their ranks?
Changed line(s) 110,118 (click to see context) from:
* They got the companion's alignments wrong: Neeshka acts almost entirely ChaoticNeutral despite being listed as TrueNeutral. And Qara is for reasons listed in the main article obviously ChaoticEvil, but listed as Chaotic Neutral.
** It's stated that Neeshka was labelled TrueNeutral because ChaoticNeutral was taken, but if that's the case then why didn't they move Qara to ChaoticEvil where she belongs and give Neeshka ChaoticNeutral?
** Same can apply to Bishop and Khelgar. Bishop came across as more "pragmatic" to this troper than "evil" and could conceivably be called ChaoticNeutral, and Khelgar was too bloodthirsty and [[BuffySpeak go-against-society-ish]] to be NeutralGood.
* Ammon ''freaking'' Jerro. Let's look at the character motivation/effectivness. I can accept some necessary evil. But none of his evil was necessary! Worse than that, it wasn't even effective! I mean despite being hopped up on demonic power, he doesn't actually accomplish ''anything''. In fact he causes damage, so much so, that half the unfortunate events in Chapters 1 & 2 can be traced to him. His demonic rampages do nothing more than slow down the Shard-Bearer. His actions in the Blacklake district delay the player from finding out more about the King of Shadows. By the time the player has what, five shards, Ammon is just managing to get ''one''. Even his assault on the githyanki accomplished ''nothing'' except giving the player more enemies to fight. He tears through West Harbor with demons at his back to what? Activate the one statue with no natural guardians. Why wasn't he doing something useful like, I don't know, killing the shadow priests and stopping the from raising an undead army? Was the consequence of his demonic deals a death grip on the IdiotBall? Despite failing epically, he will continue to blame the Shard-Bearer for all his mistakes, even if you pass the speech checks to chew him out over it. And it bugs me that his actions make up such a central part of the plot.
** So I take it you didn't manage to get him to admit he was wrong all along in how he handled his crusade and begs you and the spirit of Sandra for forgiveness? You have to do it at her farm and have had high influence with her. Ammon is a classic tragic hero, good intentions subverted by his own hubris and arrogance. Flawed as his methods are, he won the first shadow war more or less singlehandedly, before anyone else in the region even knew what was happening.
*** That's the scene that nets you Shandra's Pendant , right? It was a fine scene but came a bit too late and too sudden for my tastes. He goes from absolute ass to completely apologetic in three minutes. No matter how many other speech checks you pass that's the only one that has any change in his demenour. If they had him soften up with each one and then gave him the epiphany, I would have appreciated it a bit more. And I know he won the first Shadow War and in fact its part of why it grates my nerves so much. How in the world did he manage that given how completely ineffective he was ''on'' screen?
*** Because when he was off screen, he had a horde of demons tethered in his haven. By the time he is on screen, his main source of power is gone, which means no more immortal power levels. Keep in mind that, in theory, someone around 15th level (about when you recruit him) should be considered an insanely powerful veteran. This is eroded by 3rd and 3.5 editions' obsession for epic levels.
*** For that matter, why didn't Shandra just tell him she was his grandaughter? [[spoiler:It would have probably saved her life.]]
*** Because there was never the opportunity to. As far as she knew, her grandfather was dead and by the time she finds out differently, she's been separated from her friends with no real means of getting to them (remember her influence on the haven isn't as secure as Ammon's). The better question might be why Ammon didn't see fit to investigate the fact that someone else of Jerro bloodline was in the Haven and deal with that before tackling the player party. Surely with the influence he has on the place he must have known she was there - unless the demons and devils intervened somehow? Of course, hubris is another possibility, that he didn't think Shandra would be a threat because he didn't think she'd release his servants.
** It's stated that Neeshka was labelled TrueNeutral because ChaoticNeutral was taken, but if that's the case then why didn't they move Qara to ChaoticEvil where she belongs and give Neeshka ChaoticNeutral?
** Same can apply to Bishop and Khelgar. Bishop came across as more "pragmatic" to this troper than "evil" and could conceivably be called ChaoticNeutral, and Khelgar was too bloodthirsty and [[BuffySpeak go-against-society-ish]] to be NeutralGood.
* Ammon ''freaking'' Jerro. Let's look at the character motivation/effectivness. I can accept some necessary evil. But none of his evil was necessary! Worse than that, it wasn't even effective! I mean despite being hopped up on demonic power, he doesn't actually accomplish ''anything''. In fact he causes damage, so much so, that half the unfortunate events in Chapters 1 & 2 can be traced to him. His demonic rampages do nothing more than slow down the Shard-Bearer. His actions in the Blacklake district delay the player from finding out more about the King of Shadows. By the time the player has what, five shards, Ammon is just managing to get ''one''. Even his assault on the githyanki accomplished ''nothing'' except giving the player more enemies to fight. He tears through West Harbor with demons at his back to what? Activate the one statue with no natural guardians. Why wasn't he doing something useful like, I don't know, killing the shadow priests and stopping the from raising an undead army? Was the consequence of his demonic deals a death grip on the IdiotBall? Despite failing epically, he will continue to blame the Shard-Bearer for all his mistakes, even if you pass the speech checks to chew him out over it. And it bugs me that his actions make up such a central part of the plot.
** So I take it you didn't manage to get him to admit he was wrong all along in how he handled his crusade and begs you and the spirit of Sandra for forgiveness? You have to do it at her farm and have had high influence with her. Ammon is a classic tragic hero, good intentions subverted by his own hubris and arrogance. Flawed as his methods are, he won the first shadow war more or less singlehandedly, before anyone else in the region even knew what was happening.
*** That's the scene that nets you Shandra's Pendant , right? It was a fine scene but came a bit too late and too sudden for my tastes. He goes from absolute ass to completely apologetic in three minutes. No matter how many other speech checks you pass that's the only one that has any change in his demenour. If they had him soften up with each one and then gave him the epiphany, I would have appreciated it a bit more. And I know he won the first Shadow War and in fact its part of why it grates my nerves so much. How in the world did he manage that given how completely ineffective he was ''on'' screen?
*** Because when he was off screen, he had a horde of demons tethered in his haven. By the time he is on screen, his main source of power is gone, which means no more immortal power levels. Keep in mind that, in theory, someone around 15th level (about when you recruit him) should be considered an insanely powerful veteran. This is eroded by 3rd and 3.5 editions' obsession for epic levels.
*** For that matter, why didn't Shandra just tell him she was his grandaughter? [[spoiler:It would have probably saved her life.]]
*** Because there was never the opportunity to. As far as she knew, her grandfather was dead and by the time she finds out differently, she's been separated from her friends with no real means of getting to them (remember her influence on the haven isn't as secure as Ammon's). The better question might be why Ammon didn't see fit to investigate the fact that someone else of Jerro bloodline was in the Haven and deal with that before tackling the player party. Surely with the influence he has on the place he must have known she was there - unless the demons and devils intervened somehow? Of course, hubris is another possibility, that he didn't think Shandra would be a threat because he didn't think she'd release his servants.
to:
* They got the companion's alignments wrong: Neeshka acts almost entirely ChaoticNeutral despite being listed as TrueNeutral. And Qara is for reasons listed in the main article obviously ChaoticEvil, but listed as Chaotic Neutral.
** It's stated that Neeshka was labelled TrueNeutral because ChaoticNeutral was taken, but if that's the case then why didn't they move Qara to ChaoticEvil where she belongs and give Neeshka ChaoticNeutral?
** Same can apply to Bishop and Khelgar. Bishop came across as more "pragmatic" to this troper than "evil" and could conceivably be called ChaoticNeutral, and Khelgar was too bloodthirsty and [[BuffySpeak go-against-society-ish]] to be NeutralGood.
* Ammon ''freaking'' Jerro. Let's look at the character motivation/effectivness. I can accept some necessary evil. But none of his evil was necessary! Worse than that, it wasn't even effective! I mean despite being hopped up on demonic power, he doesn't actually accomplish ''anything''. In fact he causes damage, so much so, that half the unfortunate events in Chapters 1 & 2 can be traced to him. His demonic rampages do nothing more than slow down the Shard-Bearer. His actions in the Blacklake district delay the player from finding out more about the King of Shadows. By the time the player has what, five shards, Ammon is just managing to get ''one''. Even his assault on the githyanki accomplished ''nothing'' except giving the player more enemies to fight. He tears through West Harbor with demons at his back to what? Activate the one statue with no natural guardians.Why wasn't he doing something useful like, I don't know, killing the shadow priests and stopping the from raising an undead army? Was the consequence of his demonic deals a death grip on the IdiotBall? Despite failing epically, he will continue to blame the Shard-Bearer for all his mistakes, even if you pass the speech checks to chew him out over it. And it bugs me that his actions make up such a central part of the plot.
** So I take it you didn't manage to get him to admit he was wrong all along in how he handled his crusade and begs you and the spirit of Sandra for forgiveness? You have to do it at her farm and have had high influence with her. Ammon is a classic tragic hero, good intentions subverted by his own hubris and arrogance. Flawed as his methods are, he won the first shadow war more or less singlehandedly, before anyone else in the region even knew what was happening.
*** That's the scene that nets you Shandra's Pendant , right? It was a fine scene but came a bit too late and too sudden for my tastes. He goes from absolute ass to completely apologetic in three minutes. No matter how many other speech checks you pass that's the only one that has any change in his demenour. If they had him soften up with each one and then gave him the epiphany, I would have appreciated it a bit more. And I know he won the first Shadow War and in fact its part of why it grates my nerves so much. How in the world did he manage that given how completely ineffective he was ''on'' screen?
*** Because when he was off screen, he had a horde of demons tethered in his haven. By the time he is on screen, his main source of power is gone, which means no more immortal power levels. Keep in mind that, in theory, someone around 15th level (about when you recruit him) should be considered an insanely powerful veteran. This is eroded by 3rd and 3.5 editions' obsession for epic levels.
*** For that matter, whydidn't Shandra just tell him Ammon she was his grandaughter? [[spoiler:It would have probably saved her life.]]
*** ** Because there was never the opportunity to. As far as she knew, her grandfather was dead and by the time she finds out differently, she's been separated from her friends with no real means of getting to them (remember her influence on the haven isn't as secure as Ammon's). The better question might be why Ammon didn't see fit to investigate the fact that someone else of Jerro bloodline was in the Haven and deal with that before tackling the player party. Surely with the influence he has on the place he must have known she was there - unless the demons and devils intervened somehow? Of course, hubris is another possibility, that he didn't think Shandra would be a threat because he didn't think she'd release his servants.
** It's stated that Neeshka was labelled TrueNeutral because ChaoticNeutral was taken, but if that's the case then why didn't they move Qara to ChaoticEvil where she belongs and give Neeshka ChaoticNeutral?
** Same can apply to Bishop and Khelgar. Bishop came across as more "pragmatic" to this troper than "evil" and could conceivably be called ChaoticNeutral, and Khelgar was too bloodthirsty and [[BuffySpeak go-against-society-ish]] to be NeutralGood.
* Ammon ''freaking'' Jerro. Let's look at the character motivation/effectivness. I can accept some necessary evil. But none of his evil was necessary! Worse than that, it wasn't even effective! I mean despite being hopped up on demonic power, he doesn't actually accomplish ''anything''. In fact he causes damage, so much so, that half the unfortunate events in Chapters 1 & 2 can be traced to him. His demonic rampages do nothing more than slow down the Shard-Bearer. His actions in the Blacklake district delay the player from finding out more about the King of Shadows. By the time the player has what, five shards, Ammon is just managing to get ''one''. Even his assault on the githyanki accomplished ''nothing'' except giving the player more enemies to fight. He tears through West Harbor with demons at his back to what? Activate the one statue with no natural guardians.
** So I take it you didn't manage to get him to admit he was wrong all along in how he handled his crusade and begs you and the spirit of Sandra for forgiveness? You have to do it at her farm and have had high influence with her. Ammon is a classic tragic hero, good intentions subverted by his own hubris and arrogance. Flawed as his methods are, he won the first shadow war more or less singlehandedly, before anyone else in the region even knew what was happening.
*** That's the scene that nets you Shandra's Pendant , right? It was a fine scene but came a bit too late and too sudden for my tastes. He goes from absolute ass to completely apologetic in three minutes. No matter how many other speech checks you pass that's the only one that has any change in his demenour. If they had him soften up with each one and then gave him the epiphany, I would have appreciated it a bit more. And I know he won the first Shadow War and in fact its part of why it grates my nerves so much. How in the world did he manage that given how completely ineffective he was ''on'' screen?
*** Because when he was off screen, he had a horde of demons tethered in his haven. By the time he is on screen, his main source of power is gone, which means no more immortal power levels. Keep in mind that, in theory, someone around 15th level (about when you recruit him) should be considered an insanely powerful veteran. This is eroded by 3rd and 3.5 editions' obsession for epic levels.
*** For that matter, why
Deleted line(s) 121,128 (click to see context) :
* More on the Wall of the Faithless: in addition to its really stupid place in the plotline here, it's an utter epic fail i the actual PnP game as well. But worst yet: It's entirely reasonable that you DO have the power to squash Kelemvor like a bug by the time you meet. Even greater gods can be killed, and he would have keeled over in about a round against my character build. Against the entire epic party? Not a chance in Hell. Or Baator.
** Maybe you could, but not in his own domain. He explains this himself; he could boot you out of the Fugue Plane just by thinking about it.
*** This. If it were just a matter of combat, the player could easily wipe out Kelemvor; in the darkest ending you have Myrkul's power and ''complete control'' over the spirit hunger (the game mechanics even reflect this, giving you the ability to completely devour someone's soul regardless of hit points), which you then use to exact terrible vengeance on everyone who ever pissed you off. It's implied that all the gods eventually gang up on you, suffer heavy casualties, and ''still'' can't kill you, only banish you. So Kelemvor's sovereignty in his own domain really is the only plausible explanation. Though that leaves the question of why he doesn't just banish the crusaders in the same fashion...
*** It's not just implied, it's ''outright stated.'' Kelemvor himself narrates your one-man war against the gods, including the ''fact'' that there are less of them dicking up the place once you were done, and his ''strong suspicion'' that you were still alive and kicking. But it bugs me too. Ah well.
*** Even if he didn't just teleport you out, there's no way for you to actually hurt him. Throw magic at him and He could just shut it down at the source. Divine spells? All of the Gods support Ao, so going against Ao's decrees automatically counts as a heretical act and give him the right to cut off your connection to your patron deity. Infernal magic? He can cut off your conduit to the infernal planes just as easily. Arcane magic? That all comes from the Weave. And even if he couldn't break your connection to it, you'd be very lucky if Mystra doesn't turn you inside out for using her creation to oppose Ao. And magical items are powered by the Weave as well, so have fun trying to take out a Greater Deity without anything that can actually cause damage to him.
** Why couldn't they at least offer a chance to continue The Crusade to the point of a HopelessBossFight against him?
*** Because it wouldn't be hopeless, and that would really screw up the DM's planned conclusion.
*** Couldn't they have at least added an epilogue slide where your character joins Kaelyn on her Crusade if they were close enough? It doesn't have to say they succeeded, it would just be nice to see the option there, because there is no WAY my character would have let that thing stand.
** Maybe you could, but not in his own domain. He explains this himself; he could boot you out of the Fugue Plane just by thinking about it.
*** This. If it were just a matter of combat, the player could easily wipe out Kelemvor; in the darkest ending you have Myrkul's power and ''complete control'' over the spirit hunger (the game mechanics even reflect this, giving you the ability to completely devour someone's soul regardless of hit points), which you then use to exact terrible vengeance on everyone who ever pissed you off. It's implied that all the gods eventually gang up on you, suffer heavy casualties, and ''still'' can't kill you, only banish you. So Kelemvor's sovereignty in his own domain really is the only plausible explanation. Though that leaves the question of why he doesn't just banish the crusaders in the same fashion...
*** It's not just implied, it's ''outright stated.'' Kelemvor himself narrates your one-man war against the gods, including the ''fact'' that there are less of them dicking up the place once you were done, and his ''strong suspicion'' that you were still alive and kicking. But it bugs me too. Ah well.
*** Even if he didn't just teleport you out, there's no way for you to actually hurt him. Throw magic at him and He could just shut it down at the source. Divine spells? All of the Gods support Ao, so going against Ao's decrees automatically counts as a heretical act and give him the right to cut off your connection to your patron deity. Infernal magic? He can cut off your conduit to the infernal planes just as easily. Arcane magic? That all comes from the Weave. And even if he couldn't break your connection to it, you'd be very lucky if Mystra doesn't turn you inside out for using her creation to oppose Ao. And magical items are powered by the Weave as well, so have fun trying to take out a Greater Deity without anything that can actually cause damage to him.
** Why couldn't they at least offer a chance to continue The Crusade to the point of a HopelessBossFight against him?
*** Because it wouldn't be hopeless, and that would really screw up the DM's planned conclusion.
*** Couldn't they have at least added an epilogue slide where your character joins Kaelyn on her Crusade if they were close enough? It doesn't have to say they succeeded, it would just be nice to see the option there, because there is no WAY my character would have let that thing stand.
Deleted line(s) 131,138 (click to see context) :
* The way the game railroads you into playing either Lawful Good, or Chaotic Evil. I've played through, and any time you gain points towards good, you also gain points towards lawful, and any time you gain chaotic points, you generally move towards evil. What the fuck??
** Actually, no. Most moral choices in the game offer you four conversation options, each of which shifts your alignment in one of the four directions (towards lawful, good, chaotic, or evil). You can mix and match as you please.
*** I would have to agree that the game does force you toward the two extremes. The alignment points assigned to certain choices are very often disagreeable. This troper found that when you reach the fork in Neverwinter, choosing between Town Watch and Shadow Thieves, is when you start really getting pushed into the Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil alignments. Playing as a Chaotic Good, you absolutely can't join the Town Watch since you're chaotic, despite being good, and you can't do good while rolling with the Shadow Thieves (I expected to be able to do things like tipping off your would-be-victims, or handing over important information to the town watch to foil the Shadow Thieves plans, assuming your character is more good than chaotic). Similarly, pulling off a Lawful Evil in spirit is equally difficult; most of the lawful choices don't actually express the lawfulness of "lawful evil", as I felt the game saw "lawful" only in its most literal form. Also, for some reason, purging the Town Watch was considered "chaotic". So unfortunately, your would-be [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} SPESS MAHREEN]] / LawfulStupid Paladin would have some serious alignment compatibility issues when he shouldn't, resulting in an unforgivable shortage of [[Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG "GOOD FOR THE GOOD GOD"]] battle cries. So at the very least, there wasn't a very comprehensive understanding of alignment in the choices you could make.
* Why is Bishop so popular? He's the Token Jerk Teammate who constantly clashes with the rest of the party and betrays you (possibly twice). Just... why?
** DracoInLeatherPants.
** AllGirlsWantBadBoys.
*** You can't meaningfully explain the popularity of a specific character with an overly broad stereotype (which is incorrect, to boot).
** This troper thinks it's because he's one of the most memorable of your companions. When the game was rushed to release, a lot of your party's CharacterDevelopment had to be cut; Bishop got off the easiest, only losing the ending of his RomanceSidequest and a few lines of dialogue, while Qara, Casavir, and Elanee lost nearly everything. Because of this, his personality is more fleshed-out than the others, with the only other exceptions being the other fan-favorites Khelgar, Sand, and Neeshka, and thus he sticks in your mind more. Add in the fact that he's an interesting character, and there's your EnsembleDarkhorse.
** Actually, no. Most moral choices in the game offer you four conversation options, each of which shifts your alignment in one of the four directions (towards lawful, good, chaotic, or evil). You can mix and match as you please.
*** I would have to agree that the game does force you toward the two extremes. The alignment points assigned to certain choices are very often disagreeable. This troper found that when you reach the fork in Neverwinter, choosing between Town Watch and Shadow Thieves, is when you start really getting pushed into the Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil alignments. Playing as a Chaotic Good, you absolutely can't join the Town Watch since you're chaotic, despite being good, and you can't do good while rolling with the Shadow Thieves (I expected to be able to do things like tipping off your would-be-victims, or handing over important information to the town watch to foil the Shadow Thieves plans, assuming your character is more good than chaotic). Similarly, pulling off a Lawful Evil in spirit is equally difficult; most of the lawful choices don't actually express the lawfulness of "lawful evil", as I felt the game saw "lawful" only in its most literal form. Also, for some reason, purging the Town Watch was considered "chaotic". So unfortunately, your would-be [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} SPESS MAHREEN]] / LawfulStupid Paladin would have some serious alignment compatibility issues when he shouldn't, resulting in an unforgivable shortage of [[Blog/ThingsMrWelchIsNoLongerAllowedToDoInAnRPG "GOOD FOR THE GOOD GOD"]] battle cries. So at the very least, there wasn't a very comprehensive understanding of alignment in the choices you could make.
* Why is Bishop so popular? He's the Token Jerk Teammate who constantly clashes with the rest of the party and betrays you (possibly twice). Just... why?
** DracoInLeatherPants.
** AllGirlsWantBadBoys.
*** You can't meaningfully explain the popularity of a specific character with an overly broad stereotype (which is incorrect, to boot).
** This troper thinks it's because he's one of the most memorable of your companions. When the game was rushed to release, a lot of your party's CharacterDevelopment had to be cut; Bishop got off the easiest, only losing the ending of his RomanceSidequest and a few lines of dialogue, while Qara, Casavir, and Elanee lost nearly everything. Because of this, his personality is more fleshed-out than the others, with the only other exceptions being the other fan-favorites Khelgar, Sand, and Neeshka, and thus he sticks in your mind more. Add in the fact that he's an interesting character, and there's your EnsembleDarkhorse.
Changed line(s) 154,157 (click to see context) from:
* Add up everyone you kill in Neverwinter and subtract it from the population set in the Literature/ForgottenRealms books. You just killed a sizable chunk of it.
** The encounters being designed with many weak foes over few stronger ones doesn't really help.
** It still makes one wonder how the bad guys haven't completely taken over the city if they have an army of that many expendable thugs running around.
** And why, in the situation mentioned in the above ForegoneVictory, [[spoiler:Torio didn't just bring up the player character's impressive kill count to get them out of the way, instead of trying to frame them for destroying a village for no apparent reason -- ''especially'' if the PC joined with the Shadow Thieves and has been slaughtering dozens of Watch members since arriving in town.]]
** The encounters being designed with many weak foes over few stronger ones doesn't really help.
** It still makes one wonder how the bad guys haven't completely taken over the city if they have an army of that many expendable thugs running around.
** And why, in the situation mentioned in the above ForegoneVictory, [[spoiler:Torio didn't just bring up the player character's impressive kill count to get them out of the way, instead of trying to frame them for destroying a village for no apparent reason -- ''especially'' if the PC joined with the Shadow Thieves and has been slaughtering dozens of Watch members since arriving in town.]]
to:
* Add up everyone you kill in Neverwinter and subtract it from If the population set in the Literature/ForgottenRealms books. You just killed a sizable chunk of it.
** The encounters being designedPC joined up with many weak foes over few stronger ones doesn't really help.
** It still makes one wonder howthe bad guys haven't completely taken over the city if they have an army of that many expendable thugs running around.
** And why, in the situation mentioned in the above ForegoneVictory, [[spoiler:TorioShadow Thieves, why didn't just [[spoiler:Toriojust bring up the player character's impressive kill count of dozens of Watch members to get them out of the way, instead of trying to frame them for destroying a village for no apparent reason -- ''especially'' if the PC joined with the Shadow Thieves and has been slaughtering dozens of Watch members since arriving in town.]]reason?]]
** The encounters being designed
** It still makes one wonder how
** And why, in the situation mentioned in the above ForegoneVictory, [[spoiler:Torio
Deleted line(s) 159 (click to see context) :
** The population demographics in the source books make absolutely no sense whatsoever, especially in terms of military forces. For comparison, Neverwinter (23000+ population) has a militia of about 400, about a third of which are off duty. Port Llast (700 population) has a militia of 130 people. Luskan (16000+ population) has a militia of about 300......and 1330 archers that don't get included in that total because no one seemed to bother doing the math of just how many naval troops are present, and this isn't even counting the actual naval crews. The population numbers jump all over the place, as well. Waterdeep's population increases by five times over during the trade season. This would mean that literally almost the entire population of the surrounding area goes to Waterdeep simultaneously.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** In their place, I wouldn't turn first to the guy who intentionally created the curse in the first place in the name of both twisted amusement and enforcing loyalty - he killed the Founder once, who'd want to offer him the chance to try again? The Covens contain the greatest source of knowledge available to them. If there was an alternative, they'd be the likeliest to know.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 88 (click to see context) from:
*** The idea that the Wall no longer exists in 4th edition is a common misconception. More accurately, it's simply not mentioned in the single paragraph about the Fugue Plane, which more or less explains that Kelemvor hangs out there and he sorts the dead. It doesn't say what happens to any of them, it doesn't say the Wall was removed, and it doesn't say he doesn't imprison Faithless there still. It's just another example of the bare bones nature of the 4th edition version of ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms''. Saying that the Wall doesn't exist is like saying the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara-Tur doesn't exist anymore - that may be true, but we have no way of telling since the subject is simply never approached.
to:
*** The idea that the Wall no longer exists in 4th edition is a common misconception. More accurately, it's simply not mentioned in the single paragraph about the Fugue Plane, which more or less explains that Kelemvor hangs out there and he sorts the dead. It doesn't say what happens to any of them, it doesn't say the Wall was removed, and it doesn't say he doesn't imprison Faithless there still. It's just another example of the bare bones nature of the 4th edition version of ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms''. Saying that the Wall doesn't exist is like saying the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara-Tur TabletopGame/KaraTur doesn't exist anymore - that may be true, but we have no way of telling since the subject is simply never approached.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Part of the method of getting Khelgar to qualify to change class to a monk is about causing him to rethink his actions and desires, in effect, reconsidering himself. In this case, the weapon that is most suited for him is incompatible with him becoming what he wants, because he wants it for the wrong reasons. Really, Khelgar is not suited to be a monk, and he only wants it because he wants to fight like them, rather than have devotion to their cause. GameplayAndStoryIntegration well be at play here.
Added DiffLines:
** The same reason they'd be your alibi is the same thing that easily disqualifies them - they're the PC's TrueCompanions, and they'll stand beside the PC regardless of their reputation in Neverwinter, so they're not reliable witnesses, especially once they start going around with the PC to collect evidence. (Out of universe, it probably has to do with a combination of line limits/scripting, too much time and effort to have the companions be called upon, maybe even a wish to have influence be involved, but running out of time to implement it.)
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** You've also got Kelemvor's reason for not just undoing the Spirit Eater curse from Akachi - he can't just go around undoing the judgment of a god, lest the planes learn about it. And something like tearing down the Wall (or even just not putting more souls into it) would absolutely get the attention of the rest of the planes. If the gods are to maintain their position as such, their word is law, their judgments absolute.
