Line #84 WMG/TheSalvationWar


1	[[WMG: The Entire Salvation War is a Massive Test of either Faith/Free Will by '''Actual God''']]
2	To take a second look at the appearance of Salvation War. Both spiritual factions are not really all that powerful and the legions of Hell appear more like stereotypical artistic representations of demons, angels, and various mythological monsters (to boot why actual classical monsters were created by Hell at all since they never actually existed at all makes no true sense but YMMV on that) then anything that either is believed to exist or fictionally shown to exist (even several horror films depict supernatural good and evil (mostly evil) as either far more frighteningly alien and or powerful then what is shown here).
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4	While the faction of Heaven make themselves appear either like completely uncaring jerks or oddly [[MagnificentBastards Magnificent Bastards]] just asking [[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu for a punch in the mouth]]. Basically, every non human faction acts completely contrary to popular belief or philosophical understanding, so the only possible explanation is that the being known as Yahweh in the story is not the actual Judeo-Christian God of biblical fame, and the entire war is in actuality is [[ThePlan planned]] by actual God to test both or either Humanity's faith or free will.
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6	The test of faith is in "God's" message that Hell is inevitable for all humans so they just lay down and die and accept it. The humans that do are rewarded for their faith by being taken not to Hell, but [[FluffyCloudHeaven true Heaven]] instead. The ones who do not, and start the CurbStompWar against the armies of the afterlife, complete the test of free will.
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8	Basically, God does not mind unquestioning faith, but He does not want boot-licking yes-men who go along with His every word like robots, either. That is not what Humans were created for. In fact, there are 2 examples of God actually doing this: the prominent 1st is God's command to Abraham to kill his son Issac (which God stopped before the deed was done) as a test of faith; the second is when another biblical figure (whose name escapes me right now) literally wrestles with a angel over one of God's commands to him. Afterwhich God commends him on this saying that at times His words should be scrutinized and not always blindly followed. That was the test of free will.
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10	Basically, the entire war is to see who is unquestionably faithful, and who will not just cow-tow to the Almighty's every fickle whim and be willing to question God's reasoning (even if said question is presented as a SAM to the face). Also corallary to this, the other main reason of the Salvation war might be...
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12	[[WMG: The Salvation War is a literal war for Salvation]]
13	Basically the other main point of God's Gambit might be that if Humanity wants true spiritual salvation its going to have to earn it HARD. Simply base faith is or may not be truly enough for Gods ultimate plan. For centuries salvation is technically a simple thing to come by in a figuritve sense.
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15	Since only a sincere request for Gods forgiveness and belief in Christ is all you need to enter the better part of the afterlife, perhaps God felt that current humans were becoming far too relaxed and maybe were abusing the current system (a person could technically kill someone then just ask for forgiveness and have their record of sin wiped clean). God perhaps thought that in this way salvation was far too easy and consequence free. So his solution was for Humanity to duke it out in a massive orchastrated Massive Crossover Battle of Ultimate Destiny to both make humanity learn and remember that Salvation is a privilege not a right.
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17	Although if it is a right then it is a right like freedom it is not simply given but fought for and earned with literal blood, sweat, and tears.
18	* Now ''that'' [[MagnificentBastard is God's Plan.]]
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20	[[WMG: The thing behind Minos Gate is the true God of that universe]]
21	Well whatever the hell that is,it can break the law of conservation of mass by creating humans in hell and heaven out of nothing,so until we have info on it,it's power is beyond the God their God.
22	* Who said it was breaking conservation of mass? It could simply be using the mass in its universe to create the bodies.
23	* And when humans find a way to get through it, they are gonna kill him, too.
24	** How? Physics pretty much stops working the way humans understand it on the other side of it. Bullets may turn to water, nukes burst into happy fun flowers meat into gravel, unlike heaven and hell, which weird though they may be are basically similar to Earth in nature. The other side of Minos gate simply is not.
25	* According to Stuart, the only reason we can't go there is because the rules to that dimension are too different from ours for them to interact. Not even nonorganic objects can get through. He says it represents the finality/mystery of death -- true death -- or something.
26	** It also works the opposite way too: our universe's rules are too different for them to exist in. Which makes them a non-factor. If we can't touch them directly and they can't touch us directly, what's there to fight about?
27	[[WMG:The Targeteer is either not human or possessed.]]
28	In the scene, the plants apparently "suffered" while the targeteer was in the room. The book after that talks about devils being separate from daemons. It's possible that particular scene was foreshadowing for the devils.
29	* WordOfGod from Stuart is that he actually is entirely human - just a very, ''very'' creepy human.
30	* More WordofGod. "The Targeteer" is actually based on a 1980s strategic analyst called Don Brennan, who was brilliant and affable but whose talents at gardening were worse than non-existent. "We used to joke that he could kill plants just by walking into the same room with them."
31	** There may actually be multiple Targeteers; he's just the only one that's been identified, in answering General Petraeus at his Heaven HQ.
32	*** There ''are'' multiple Targeteers. Not all of them necessarily go by "Targeteer". They're a particular type of military contractor.
33	[[WMG: The true purpose behind the workings of heaven/hell]]
34	It's mentioned in the recent chapters that [[spoiler: humans live in a universe which is slowly expanding towards heat-death, whereas demons/angels/whatnot live in one that's collapsing towards Big Crunch]]. The purpose of the "energy-gathering" from humans that end up in heaven/hell is not to get into any sort of true heaven, but to stave off the end of the world as angels/devils know it by preventing this collapse.
35	* {{Jossed}}. In both cases the energy was going directly to the tyrants of both factions. Although there was no energy being generated by Hell.
36	[[WMG: [[MagnificentBastard Michael]] is going to [[HoistByHisOwnPetard give humans a way into Heaven]] with the Sixth Bowl of Wrath.]]
37	Fact: Yahweh's attack plan follows the Book of Revelations.
38	--> '''''The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings of the East.''' And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;''
39	The part in bold's the important part as far as this WMG is concerned. Michael, recognizing that drying up one river is useless in the grand scheme of things, tries to talk Yahweh into expanding the scope of the Bowl. In a [[OutOfCharacterMoment shocking swerve]], Yahweh actually ''agrees'' with Michael, and commands that ''all the rivers of the Earth,'' or at least the major ones, be diverted to Heaven with portals. Michael's shocked, maybe a little pleased that Yahweh's becoming easier to manipulate...And then [[OhCrap he realizes that, very shortly, Heaven's going to open at least a dozen portals directly to Earth, and]] ''[[OhCrap leave those portals open for the duration of the Sixth Bowl]]''.]]
40	** Nope. But anyway, Michael know that the HEA will reach heaven very soon. He already has a plan for that.
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42	[[WMG: When the humans inevitably reach the afterlives of other mythologies, they will find duplicates of all the second-lifers there too]]
43	It's been confirmed in ''Pantheocide'' that the pantheons of various other mythologies exist throughout the multiverse, and many of these mythologies have afterlives of their own. Now it can't just be that people go to the afterlife they believed in since we see various non-Christians and even pre-Christians in Hell, but note that the second-lifers are not technically the same people who died. When people die, the Minos Gate creates copies of them in Hell, but what is there to say that this only happens once? Since resurrection does not involve a soul being transferred to the new body or anything like that, there is no reason why other Minos Gates could not be creating identical second lifers in all the other afterlives.
44	* Interesting, but unlikely. Various celestials have referenced wars in which they drove off other pantheons, including a deal with the deities Caesar worshiped. Also note that those humans who don't go through the Minos gate wind up at St. Peter's gate, and those humans who don't go to Peter wind up at the Minos gate. Competition among other afterlives probably works the same way: A soul that goes to one place doesn't go anywhere else. Working out the exact mechanics could result in an interesting celestial immigration system, though, especially after other pantheons are located and agreements with them are made.
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46	[[WMG: This entire story is based on the idea of a VideoGame/{{Doom}} MMO]]
47	Just saying that would be like the crowning crossover of awesome.
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49	[[WMG: Yahweh, Satan, and Uriel’s kind are the Others. Same with the Olympians and their predecessors in the Greco-Roman pantheon, as well as possibly other “gods” from other pantheons . The minor deities, spirits, and supernatural creatures of the Greco-Roman pantheon are the same race as the angels and demons. Yahweh/Satan and the modern/day angels/demons overthrew the Olympians and kicked them out of Heaven.]]
50	Chanting in heaven is often in Greek or Latin, even though in human history both languages predate the widespread worship of Yahweh in those areas (and, for that matter, the very existence of Christianity and Islam). Indeed, Christianity rose by supplanting the worship of the Greco-Roman gods in much of the later Roman Empire, culminating in Constantine’s official conversion of the Empire to Christianity. Many of the descriptions of the monsters, spirits and minor deities of the Greco-Roman pantheon resemble that of angels and demons – CupidEros is almost exactly to what an angel looks like, the satyrs and nymphs behave a little like incubi and succubae, gorgons actually originate in Greco-Roman mythology.
51	The angels and demons seem to fear the Others, even though we know that Yahweh/Satan were able to drive them off Earth (although not defeat them completely) and treat with them on at least equal, if not superior terms. Meanwhile, the only one we know of that’s been “saved by the Others” is a Roman – and he says he worshipped the “cult of Cybele.” Cybele is the Phrygian earth-mother goddess. She was known by the ancient Romans (obviously) as well as the ancient Greeks, and had an equivalent in the pantheons of pretty much the entire region. Her Greek equivalent, Gaia, was the husband of Uranus and the mother of, among others, the Titans. The Titans overthrew Uranus with the help of Gaia, and were then themselves overthrown by the Olympians. Gaia’s concern for all her children is why she encouraged the above rebellions.
52	So, the above leads to my WMG – Yahweh and Satan were the same kind as the Olympians, and the angels/demons all part of the same host under the Olympians. Yahweh/Satan were powerful beings who, with the angels and demons as their followers overthrew the Olympians and kicked them out of heaven with their followers, and then started to take over the Earth from the other deities. Gaia couldn’t stop Yahweh/Satan completely, but cared enough about her followers to ensure they would not be condemned to Hell.
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54	[[WMG: Yahweh and Satan were the [[Webcomic/HetaliaAxisPowers Nation-tans of Heaven and Hell]].]]
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56	Yahweh and Satan were described as being beings that were like the Angels and Demons, but somehow supreme among them. If we consider the fact that the Forces of heaven and Hell considered themselves their own Nations with traditions, languages and government structures that were unique to them, then we can make the connection that they have a sense of Nationalism or Patriotism (one that is borne out of Religious adherence). In a Hetalia WMG, it's theorized that the nation-tans were once worshipped as gods by humans, before the rise of the big religions (Christianity, Islam, etc.). It could be that the "gods" of other alternate universes in the Salvation universe were the ancestors of modern nations, forced out by Yahweh and Satan (as mentioned the TSW's backstory). Yahweh and Satan could have been the nation-tans of the Angels and Demons (and were thus "brothers", following a TSW theory. Only, they were "brothers" in the same way that America and England were "brothers"). Of course, since Uriel is supposed to be Yahweh's brother, and Elhmas his son, then they may be nations as well. In this case, Uriel may be the Anthropomorphic personification of God's wrath as humans and Angels know it. This could also be an explanation for why Uriel's power has become less effective: humans just don't believe enough in it anymore, unlike the Baldricks and Angels. Elhmas may be Yahweh's son in the same way that Greece and Egypt were Ancient Greece and Egypt's sons, and he took over as Nation-tan for the Angels when Yahweh bit it. The reason why Yahweh and Satan both died was because they had become extremely weakened by the invasions, and the peoples of Heaven and Hell became so demoralized that their sense of being a distinct people died as well ("Their faith met our firepower. Our firepower won".). Even Abigor said that things would never be the same in Hell. While Elhmas took over in Heaven, Hell saw the complete [[CurbStompBattle thrashing of Hell]], so they don't really have a nation any more. The old gods that survived went with their followers to other dimensions, and thus survived where other nations had died out. Ancient Rome, of course, joined up with his old boss Caesar to establish New Rome, which was recognized by his grandsons the Italy Brothers almost immediately. And the Targeteer(s)? Well, the one working for the United States may very well be [[{{Eagleland}} Alfred F. Jones]] in one of his more DarkFic-y moments, while the other Targeteers could be other nation-tans helping their people. In this setting, they ''would'' come off as rather creepy. Maybe the "Devils" spoken of could be the nation-tans?
57	* That would actually make for a good fanfic story, come to think of it. Somehow, Rome and Caesar rebuilding the Empire (with Italian backing) actually sounds pretty plausible in-story.
58	** The inspiration for this WMG actually came from the part of the story that mentioned the Italians as prominent backers of New Rome. The way it was written just made me think of an enthusiastic North and South Italy recognizing their grandpa's new "house" and offering to help set up. Of course, that means that Rome somehow got down to Hell from Heaven. But considering the fact that Rome was able to convince "God" to let him bug Germany for a while, and that the Yahweh of this story is reminiscent of Nero or Caligula, it probably wasn't that hard for Rome. It would also explain how Caesar evaded eternal torture: With Rome acting as a "go-between" for Caesar and these mysterious "other gods", he was probably able to call in a favour or two to cut Caesar a break. Other nations may have done this for a select few people (such as their favourite bosses or national heroes).
59	** Ok, ''now'' I'm convinced of seeing a fic like this come to reality. And the some. Undead-Habsburg Austria-Hungary anyone?
60	*** With the various new factions appearing in Hell, many based on historical nations that don't exist anymore, there is a distinct possibility that new -tans are being born in Hell, much like America and his contemporaries (Canada, Cuba, etc.) popped up when Europeans arrived in the Americas. It would be great if they were personified as Zombies, and it would be humorous to see Austria and Hungary moonlighting as the "parents" to the undead Austrian/Hungarian faction(s). Also, I just realized, Yahweh from TSW could easily be the "Kami-sama" that Hungary talks to about hitting France with the frying pan (as well as giving Estonia that epic dream where he was in the "Nyotalia" genderbent universe). After reading TSW and seeing this "God" and his attitude towards his subjects (mortal and angelic), it would fit that he would be the comical jerk we see in the Hetlalia 'verse. Himaruya just focuses on the ComedicSociopathy whilst Stuart plays it straight.
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62	[[WMG: The Salvation War was masterminded by [[Series/DoctorWho The Master]] to conquer Earth and then the universe.]]
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64	We have a Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart as a character, he mentions having helped a Doctor (capitalized in story) various times in a previous assignment, and his men are combat-tested against Gorgon-like threaths. At the end of the second book, Humans control Heaven and Hell, but there's an economic and political mess inbound for the Alliance, something that could help him take over. It's possible he somehow provoked all of this, and he may even have sabotaged Elhmas attempts at making Mankind's peaceful just to provoke this war, and that his other plans were all a distraction to prevent the Doctor from noticing this one (and had they been successful, it would have just been a bonus).
65	* He could have been the Targeteer that killed Abigor's plants by just being in the same room, covertly poisoning them just for the [[IncrediblyLamePun hell]] of it.
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67	[[WMG: General Asanee is [[Manga/BlackLagoon Balalaika]]]]
68	She's a ruthless person who throws everyone out who can't follow her orders in 2 seconds but she's also got the [[AFatherToHisMen A Mother To Her Men]] vibe. Besides, she's pure awesome, like handing out a rank improvement to a soldier who answers her question of "What have you been doing?" with "I've been sleeping on the job." just because he was the FIRST person to knew WHAT he was doing in the enitre command center. She probably also has a lot of scars.
69	This makes way more sense than it legitimately should. General Asanee is officially Thai, right? So is the city of Roanapur.
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71	* Possible semi-confirmation from the bonus features incorporated in the Black Lagoon 1 Series 1 and 2 DVD set. The author said that many of the characters in Black Lagoon were based on people he'd met while doing research in Thailand. The similarities between Balalaika and the real officer on whom General Asanee is based are compelling. Both are generally calm, collected, funny, and smile favorably on people who amuse or interest them. Both are usually willing to negotiate before resorting to violence. They are both also ruthless, aggressive, assertive, take great pride in being a soldier and generate intense loyalty from their subordinates. If negotiations fail, both will regret the fact in a cooing voice before casually gunning down everybody in their way. Overall, the similarities are so great that it is hard to imagine the author of Black Lagoon didn't meet the real thing and use her as a base for Balalaika. That would make Black Lagoon's Balalaika and the Salvation War's General Asanee cousins of sorts. Also Roanapur appears to be based in part on a small town on the Thai/Myanmar border (with shades of Port Moresby, Saigon and Marseilles and a touch of Butte, Montana in the 1920s) where the real-life officer was stationed in the 1990s.
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73	* Also, Doctor Kuroneko is [[Literature/{{Oreimo}} Kuroneko]], just cause imagining a gothic-lolita doctor (i.e. the aforementioned Kuroneko) is somehow hilarious.
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75	[[WMG: What happened after the war...]]
76	The first and most obvious thing is that plane, train, and bush companies are doomed. Their is just no reason to spend the very expensive and very limited oil to drive for hours when one can only can drive to one's local portal station and drive to ANY city in the world. Even shipping companies are completely obsolete. While many small towns based around highways are going to suffer and die, globalization and commerce shall increase to an unbelievable degree.
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78	However, Earth's economy is going to crash, HARD. Between war debt, the price fixing with massive inflation, and the entire Earth economy set to fight a war that now is over, is going to lead to some HORRID troubles in the coming years. However, Hell's economy will be booming. Ceaser's New Roman Republic is the only nation without a huge amount of war debt. An incalculable amount of money is being fueled into the place with people's inheritance and private investments are going to be coming in. Hell has massive amounts resources and land to do anything one can imagine.
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80	Several new nations will be founded in Hell include a lot of political niche, such as a Libertarian state and a collectivist Marxist state, as enough of even the smallest political idioloegy will have millions of followers to create their own places.
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82	Heaven is going to be a strange issue. Not much chance of economic growth, the humans there don't trust any other humans, angels are still trying to figure out what is going on.
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84	Humans are going to find other pantheons and other gods, either through randomly making new portals, finding old unused portals in Heaven and Hell, having the Gods punch holes into the human lands, or some combination of the above. Some will go with the humans, others will try wage war. Belilie may ally himself with some of them, maybe.
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86	Beyond, the split roads of chance will make the rest hard to predict.
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88	* Economic issues confirmed: Fedex is reported as going out of business, and UsefulNotes/BarackObama reflects on the fact that, with an economy fully geared towards war, they might not be able to work fast enough to return to a civilian-based economy before it all crashes down.
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90	[[WMG: Following the theory that this a test by actual God, Yahweh is [[Myth/HebrewMythology a Caananite god]] who's [[AGodAmI full of it.]] ]]
91	Before Yahweh was blended together with [[TopGod El]] to make the Abrahamic YHWH we understand today, he was simply the god of war, and [[GodIsEvil not a very nice one.]] The God in [[EarlyInstallmentWeirdness early parts]] of the Bible? Yahweh, spending his time discrediting all of his rivals. By Christianity, Yahweh had developed a full-blown [[AGodAmI El complex]], either refusing to believe or outright forgetting [[GodOfGods El's existence.]] Jesus was probably the son/messenger of El, hence why [[JesusWasWayCool he was way cool.]]
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93	[[WMG: Some angels will make an effort to become [[AllLovingHero loving]], [[TheParagon righteous]] heroes]]
94	Many angels will learn how humans portrayed them as king, loving, and wise beings of justice in fiction. After seeing humanity spare them horribly agony despite everything Yahweh did, many angels will [[TheAtoner make amends]] by becoming everything humanity imagined them to be. You'd see angels acting as superheroes all over Earth, saving everyone from the cat in the tree, to a person trapped in a high-rise building on fire.
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96	[[WMG: The Salvation War takes place in the Chick Tractverse]]
97	I refuse to believe otherwise.
98	* Sadly not very likely, since in the Chick Tractverse, almost nobody seems to ever have heard of Jesus and Christianity appears to be a very low-key religion, rather than THE biggest religion on the planet (or at least in the Top 3).

Context WMG / TheSalvationWar