Line #57 Headscratchers/SonicForces


1	* Did Shadow kill Jackal Squad? The game's use of NeverSayDie is what prompts me to ask this, as well as its being true or false having some major implications for Infinite's character. The most concise description of what exactly happened to Jackal Squad was Infinite's own assertion that Shadow "destroyed" them, which ''does'' lean more towards them having died, especially considering that '''a''') ''Forces'' is one of the games in the series that's most direct about death (despite the use of NeverSayDie), and '''b''') this was done by ''Shadow'', whom we've already seen could definitely stoop to killing people if it was deemed necessary. In turn, this would paint Infinite's actions in the story proper as more of a RoaringRampageOfRevenge... but the game is still too vague to say for sure. And if Jackal Squad ''didn't'' die, then what exactly were they doing when their boss became a homicidal maniac?
2	** "Destroy" is the word pretty much universally used in kids' media where NeverSayDie is in effect. So, yeah, one can reasonably assume that Shadow killed them.
3	** In those circumstances, Shadow is the type of person who would use lethal force in order to get through as quickly as possible. So, he wasn't holding back, but he didn't care enough to check whether they really died (nor did anyone else, really).
4	** [[https://youtu.be/5h0-rpCPgt0 Unused dialogue]] in the DLC's files makes it sound like the Jackal Squad caught Shadow off-guard ("Unbelievable... time to show them ultimate power!"), forcing him to go all-out and kill them.
5	* What happened to Infinite after his final battle? He gets yoinked away in a red laser and is never seen again.
6	** Chances are Eggman offed him, partially [[YouHaveFailedMe due to his failure]] and [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness so he could take the Phantom Ruby]]. In the game's first cutscene, we see a diagram on one of Eggman's monitors that implies Infinite's very body is incorporated into the Phantom Ruby, not the other way around - like a GenieInABottle - meaning that if Eggman wanted to use the Ruby himself, he'd have to take Infinite with it.
7	*** The ''Sonic Encyclospeedia'' states that Infinite was "consumed" by the Phantom Ruby after his final defeat. With the Phantom Ruby now missing, it seems Infinite is too.
8	* Yeah, it gets lampshaded briefly, but ''why bother making an illusory copy of Metal Sonic?'' He's already Dr. Eggman's most iconic, competent minion, and outside of [[TheStarscream that one time]] in ''Heroes'' one of his most loyal.
9	** Metal Sonic's last appearance in the main series was being carried away by Omega at the end of ''Heroes''. He's probably dismantled or in GUN custody. Making an illusory copy would have been quicker and easier than building a new one.
10	*** Except Metal Sonic already appeared both in ''Videogame/SonicRivals'' 2 and ''Videogame/SonicFreeRiders'', and remember Rivals is Silver's canon introduction, so no, he is not with GUN.
11	** Also,Metal has a somewhat obsessive single target. He will go after Sonic, to the detriment of basically everything else. Whereas the illusory one can be directed towards any objective, from destroying Resistance forces to devastating cities
12	** According to the IDW comics, which can be taken as WordOfSaintPaul in this matter, the real Metal was being upgraded but by the time this was done, the war was already over.
13	* What happened to Eggman after the final battle? They never showed what became of him after the Death Egg Robot got destroyed. Did he escape, or get stuck in Null Space, or die (or both)?
14	** It seems he escaped, given the Team Sonic diagram at 100% goes down to 99.99% at the end.
15	** Eggman ''dying''? [[JokerImmunity As if!]]
16	** The good doctor shows up alive and well in ''VideoGame/SonicFrontiers'' (which explicitly takes place after the events of ''Forces''), so he clearly must've had an escape plan in place. After all, this is [[EvilGenius Eggman]] we're talking about.
17	* How do the Phantom Ruby's powers tie into ''VideoGame/SonicMania''[='=]s events? In that game, it seemed like the Ruby could reality-warp and transform things, and if it was just illusions, how much of that game was real at all?
18	** It seems that the Phantom Ruby has both the virtual-reality powers exploited by Eggman in ''Forces'', as well as mild dimension-altering powers, as seen by how the Ruby dragged ''Mania''!Sonic into the world of ''Forces'', as well as the creation of 'Null Space'. An example of the Ruby's reality altering powers is the 'ruby dust' that teleports you around the stage Titanic Monarch.
19	** It was stated in Sonic Forces that despite being illusions, they're as real as anything else for the characters in the Sonic universe. About the only thing that makes them "illusions" is that they're created out of thin air, they're not alive, and they'll vanish if the Phantom Ruby loses its power source.
20	* Did Sonic and his comrades rescue all of the Wisps from the Death Egg before it blew up? (I'm not even going to question why the Wisps continue to be encapsulated everywhere, as I don't think they're even trying for any explanation for that anymore.)
21	* Why did both Sonics and the Avatar get more accomplished then the Resistance did?
22	** Well...it ''is'' Knuckles who is leading the Resistance. Sure, he may not be as [[TookALevelInDumbass dumb as he was in the Sonic Boom series]], but Knuckles isn't really what you call a good leader. His "Operation Big Wave" failed miserably and was basically kept at base all the time.
23	*** Knuckles' job as the Resistance leader was to lead it to victory, and he did just that, seeing how the Sonics and the Avatar ''are'' part of the Resistance. His job isn't to evenly distribute the work between the Resistance members, as clearly not everyone was equally capable. It was also under his leadership that Modern Sonic was set free when Eggman was keeping him prisoner.
24	** Remember that the game only focuses on a small part of the resistance (Chaotix + Silver, Amy, and Rookie), so we don't get much beyond their perspective.
25	*** Yeah, the dialogue makes it clear that the rest of the Resistance is fighting in other areas, or that they already partly cleared the path in the current level for the player character to go through.
26	* Looking at the chart of possible Avatar species, can anyone tell what they are? I see a squirrel, a mouse, a fox, a koala, a horse, a pig, a mole, a deer... but the rest confuse me. Does anyone have an idea what they could be? It's driving me nuts...
27	** When the game was released, the species the Avatar could be was finalized as cat, dog, bird, wolf, bear, rabbit, and hedgehog.
28	* Where the hell is G.U.N.? They fought back against the Black Arms in ''VideoGame/ShadowTheHedgehog'' but here? Apparently not.
29	** In the human world. Yeah, according to Iizuka, there are two worlds; one for humans and one for anthros. Sonic and Co can jump back and forth whenever they feel like it. Somehow. No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, it does just raise further questions.
30	*** Maybe Iizuka was referring to the fact that there's now an alternate dimension based on the classic era, rather than there being two worlds within the same dimension? Classic dimension would be the "anthro world", while modern dimension would be the "human world".
31	*** While that would make far more sense, sadly no. Two dimensions, one species each. According to Iizuka, this has been canon since the Adventure games, they just never touched on it. This is also why Sonic X used it as its setup.
32	*** ''Adventure 1'' clearly had Angel Island in the human world. Unless Angel Island got stuck halfway through a portal, this is as fallacious as that "We only see the good side of the moon" crap.
33	*** It's possible that Iizuka meant worlds as in separate societies, rather than parallel worlds. Yuji Naka was asked relatively recently if Christmas Island (Sonic's birth place) was located on another planet, and he answered that no, it's on Earth, and is even a real life location. He was also asked about the sudden introduction of humans in Sonic Adventure (the same question that prompted Iizuka to give the infamous answer about separate worlds), and his answer was that Sonic originally fought Eggman in places like Christmas Island, before the action moved to places like Station Square, which was where he first met them. No mention of parallel worlds.[[http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=33744]]
34	*** Yeah, its far easier to just ignore Iizuka's claim and say its all one world. Still doesn't explain where GUN was, though, so we're back to square one.
35	*** Presumably either unaware of the current situation or... y'know... dead
36	*** Or, GUN has been captured or conquered by Eggman and Infinite, just like 99% of the world.
37	*** This troper believes GUN didn't really care whom to serve and [[LesCollaborateurs joined Eggman as soon as they understood they were losing.]]
38	** Is possible that, as the world's most dangerous army, Eggman took them down inmediately after Sonic for a strategic measure. It's fanon sure, but is something.
39	** G.U.N. is likely doing everything they can to fight Eggman, but like the rest of the resistance, we don't see what they're doing.
40	** TailsTube #2 reveals that Eggman decimated G.U.N. in his campaign that lead to him taking control of the planet.
41	* Why are the Avatar hedgehogs lankier than Sonic, Shadow, Silver, and Amy, in addition to lacking ConjoinedEyes? Are they supposed to be a separate subspecies?
42	** I'd guess they're more like "natural" teen/ adult Hedgehogs from the current timeline. Sonic is an anomaly, Shadow is a bioweapon and part Black Arms, Silver is from another world, and Amy is the result of Chaos Emerald changes
43	*** "Amy is the result of Chaos Emerald changes" <- Huh? Also, Silver is from the current timeline's future.
44	*** Double huh too. Your claim makes absolute no sense, especially as Amy has nothing going on for her, you're confusing the games continuity with the Archie comics.
45	* Why did the prequel comic show Infinite's face, when Episode Shadow went to great extents to hide it from view? Did nobody at Sonic Team tell the comic's artist that it wasn't supposed to be shown?
46	** There seems to be a disconnect between the webcomic and the game. For instance, the Avatar uses a completely different design from the trailers and box art, and Knuckles has a goofier personality than in the game, almost to the point of coming off more as his ''Sonic Boom'' counterpart than the main incarnation. It's very likely that there was little communication between Sonic Team and the webcomic staff. In fact, it's even possible that Sonic Team had no input into the webcomic beyond deciding the story and providing some level concept art and the Infinite character sheet. Giving the approval of the script and the final product likely laid on Sega's hands, rather than the game staff.
47	*** There's actually unused dialogue in the DLC files that uses lines directly from the webcomic ''Looming Shadow'', so there must have been at least a little communication.
48	** Alternatively, the Webcomic is showing more of the characters from a semi-omniscient angle, rather than a character. So to the Avatar, Infinite is just this...horrifying masked killer, and to Shadow, Infinite is barely worth recalling, so we don't get shown his face.
49	*** Alternative, Infinite makes a big deal about hating his face after being defeated, and being reborn into what he is now thanks to the Phantom Ruby. The game just doesn't show his face to go with the narrative, as the cutscene he appears in is clearly told in first person.
50	* Why was Green Hill Zone turning into a desert, complete with {{Sand Worm}}s? I don't think they ever explained that.
51	** Ecological damage, and possibly some reality warping
52	* Why didn't the real Shadow step in to help the resistance after Sonic was presumably killed? He's probably one of the few people who can match Sonic in speed and strength, so he would've been valuable to taking back the world from Dr. Eggman.
53	** Presumably he was fighting Infinite illusions for a good while, considering the jackal has a personal score with him. Considering how the Jackal Squad was "destroyed" by him, it would be in Eggman's best interest to take care of Shadow during the six months, but [[TheAce Shadow was too much for the doctor to imprison]].
54	* Was there a moment where we got a clear indication of Knuckles finding out Sonic is alive?? Because it seems rather sudden, but it could be I just wasn't paying full attention. If there is no explanation though... seriously, why wouldn't you explain that??
55	* This game retcons Classic Sonic as being a Sonic from another dimension, theorized by fans to have been created by Eggman trying to change the past in the events of Sonic Generations and causing Classic Sonic's time to split into a parallel dimension, but Tailstube #4 retcons the initial retcon and re-clarifies that Classic Sonic is Sonic from the past, like in Sonic Generations. If that's true, then did the Modern characters ever go through the events of Sonic Mania?
56	** And if they did, then why didn't any of them recognize the Phantom Ruby or its effects when Infinite first appeared?
57	*** And for that matter, why didn't Modern Eggman remember the Phantom Ruby when he found it?
58	* Is it ever explained where the Chaos Emeralds were during this fiasco? Sonic and the Resistance's chances of victory would've sky-rocketed if they had them. And if Eggman was keeping the Emeralds away from them or something, was he really just letting them sit around without using them? Was he so excited by the Phantom Ruby that he forgot just how powerful the Emeralds are?

Context Headscratchers / SonicForces