This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ununnilium: Blar, I'll finish later. @.@
Ununnilium: Done. >>
priopraxis:shouldn't this list some tropes ? or at least "Green Lantern Ring" ?
LuisDantas: All in all, a fine effort at describing the GLC concept and characters, if you are willing to cut Kyle Rayner some slack. Which, I fear, is not particularly fair. His characterization may have some fans, but all around he was simply atrocious, especially to previous GL fans. DC retconned itself out of their minds just to give him a place in the current DCU - and lost me as a reader in the process.
buttbutt: All in all, a fine effort at describing the GLC concept and characters, if you are willing to cut Hal Jordan some slack. Which, I fear, is not particularly fair. Like Barry Allen, he was more interesting when he was dead than when he was alive, and Kyle had the distinct advantage of not being a complete creep. DC retconned itself of their minds just to say that he never actually had a long-term physical relationship with a 13-year-old girl. But they didn't lose me as a reader, because the Sinestro Corps War was just that good.
Dentaku: That's ... one heck of a ridiculously long article. Can't it be trimmed?
Bring The Noise: Agreed. I'll try to cut it down tomorrow if there are no objections (I'll post the original here for reference).
Right, here it is:
One of the mainstay Super Heroes of The DCU from the Golden Age to today, Green Lantern has three charm points that have kept him successful through the years. First, the visually interesting nature of his powers; second, the wish-fulfillment aspect of a magic ring that can make anything you think of; and third, the franchise aspect, pushing the Legacy Character concept to its limits with the Green Lantern Corps.
Indeed, there are currently several characters sharing the name of Green Lantern. Here's a roundup of the biggies:
Alan Scott: The original, Golden Age Green Lantern. Acquired a mystical lantern made of green metal, out of which he carved a ring. His only weakness is wood, and he's been a member of every incarnation of the Justice Society Of America. One of those badass old guys who are too rare in popular media.
Harold "Hal" Jordan: The updated, Silver Age Green Lantern. Given the Power Battery and Power Ring of the Green Lantern Corps by a dying alien, Abin Sur. His weakness, along with the rest of the Corps, was the color yellow. He's been a perennial member of the Justice League Of America, though sometimes other Lanterns replaced him. Went through a bad stage during the 90s, but is now back and better than ever.
Guy Gardner: Introduced as Abin Sur's other choice (Hal was closer). Pretty much a plot device up until the late Bronze Age, he was taken out by a bus so John Stewart could become the backup Green Lantern, brought back with brain damage as an adversary for the other Lanterns, and became a member of the Green Lantern Corps as an Anti Hero. In the Dark Age, he went through several more changes, becoming a member of the "Super Buddies" version of the Justice League (with a Jerkass characterization, Retconned as being due to the brain damage), taking a yellow power ring fueled by other Lanterns, losing that ring, discovering he had alien ancestry that gave him an even Darker And Edgier alien ability to make guns from his body, healing his brain damage, and coming back as an Honor Guard member of the GLC.
John Stewart: The first black Lantern, introduced in the Bronze Age as a means of social commentary. Became the "main" GL for a time, before being brought low by Executive Meddling. Restored to popularity by Justice League. Contrary to popular belief, he does not host The Daily Show.
Kyle Rayner: Introduced in the 90s as the younger, more hip replacement to Hal Jordan. For which he got lots of hate in the beginning, sadly. Despite this, he managed to build up his own personality and get his own share of fans. Was the first GL not to have a weakness in his ring. Currently an Honor Guard member of the GLC and living on Oa with Guy.
Killowog: Big, pink, and pretty nice once you get to know him. One of the perennial favorites among the alien Green Lanterns, Kilowog is the senior drill sergeant who trained Hal before becoming close friends with him.
Mogo: Green Lanterns come in all shapes and sizes. This one is round, and the size of a planet. No, wait. It is a planet. Just remember that Mogo Doesn't Socialise. The spiritual heart of the Corps, Mogo is a haven for the Corps and a living computer that links all Green Lantern rings.
In 1940, All-American Comics (at the time, a mostly separate entity from DC Comics) published All-American Comics #16, with a cover blurb that shouted "Introducing the Green Lantern!" The story within introduced Alan Scott, a young railroad engineer whose train is the victim of sabotage. Alan is the only survivor, clutching a lucky railroad lantern made of green metal.
The lantern flared to life, speaking, and explained how thousands of years ago a mystical meteor, the "green flame", fell to Earth. It prophesized that it would flare green three times; once to bring death, once to bring life, and once to bring power.
One of the villagers brought the meteor home and made a lamp of it; the others, superstitious and scared, attacked and killed the lampmaker, but the green light flared, bringing death to the murderers.
Centuries later, it was brought to an insane asylum, where an inmate reshaped it into the railroad lantern. As it was finished, it flared, curing the inmate and bringing him a new life.
The lantern instructed Alan to make a ring from its material, which must touch the lantern every twenty-four hours. It told that power would be his, as long as he had faith in himself, and for him to shed its light over dark evil, for they cannot stand the light.
Alan went on to sew together a costume, take out the ring of saboteurs, and become the leading character of All-American Comics. His one weakness was wood; the green flame was linked to "green, growing things", and thus, wooden objects could rip through the creations of the ring like they weren't even there. He acquired a Plucky Comic Relief Sidekick named Doiby Dickles, and had both serious adventures and light, comedic romps.
He did well as long as Super Heroes were in favor with the audience, but eventually fell to none other than his own dog, with "Streak, The Wonder Dog" taking over both covers and stories.
At the beginning of the Silver Age, the Flash (incidentally, another All-American hero) was brought back to wide acclaim. It was time to bring back another character and see if they'd do just as well, and in 1959, Green Lantern was chosen.
This new Lantern was a bigger change than the new Flash had been. Test pilot Hal Jordan was suddenly summoned to the crash site of a dying alien, Abin Sur. Abin explained that the lantern and ring he carried were actually a weapon, given to space-patrolmen to protect the cosmos. His spaceship had been battered by deadly yellow radiation, the one color that the lantern's power could not protect against. His duty was to pass the lantern to someone honest and totally without fear, and out of the population of Earth, Hal had been chosen. He explained that the ring must be charged every twenty-four hours, and with his dying breath, begged Jordan not to fail him.
This more scientific (sounding), space-based origin was in keeping with the spirit of the late 1950s. Hal soon learned that he was but one member of a galaxy-spanning organization, the Green Lantern Corps, three thousand six hundred members each assigned to their own sector of space. They were overseen by the Guardians of the Universe, a race of short, blue-skinned, white-haired men who maintained the Central Power Battery on the planet Oa.
He had an Earth-based supporting cast, too; Secret Keeper Tom Kalmaku, aka "Pieface" (as he was an Eskimo in a very un-PC time); Carol Ferris, both love interest and boss in Hal's Secret Identity; and his brothers, Jack and Jim Jordan. He operated mainly out of Coast City, a No Communities Were Harmed version of Los Angeles, or perhaps San Francisco.
Hal's adventures were some of the Silver Agiest of the Silver Age, with tons of weird Sci Fi plot loops and imaginative extrapolations of the core concept putting it a step above the stuck-in-a-rut adventures of Superman and Batman at the time. Villains like Sinestro, the renegade Green Lantern with a yellow power ring acquired from the antimatter universe of Qward, or Star Sapphire, Carol Ferris's split-personality alter-ego empowered by the Zamarons, female anima to the Guardians' animus, were defeated by clever and original use of the simple yet versatile Green Lantern Ring. John Broome and Gardner Fox, who also wrote Flash and Justice League Of America, brought in strange plots laced with a subtle — occasionally a bit too subtle — dash of characterization.
Alan Scott was even brought back, and the "green flame" was given a retconned link to the Corps. It seems that, millions of years ago, the Guardians gathered together the magic of Earth-1 (home of Hal Jordan and the Silver Age heroes), bound it into a ball known as the Starheart, and flung it across the dimensional barriers into Earth-2 (home of Alan Scott and the Golden Age heroes), where it eventually crashed into Earth as the green meteor.
By the beginning of the Bronze Age, unfortunately, the title was falling on the sales charts. So they brought in Denny O' Neil on scripts and Neal Adams on art, and turned it into the flagship "relevant" title of DC's Bronze Age.
O' Neil saw Green Lantern as the symbol of Authority and "The Man", and paired him up with Oliver "Green Arrow" Queen, a former millionaire playboy and now Straight Arrow warrior now positioned as a firebrand liberal. He sent them off on a cross-country trip to "find America", downplaying the cosmic space adventures of yesteryear and instead using them to explore the social issues of the day. The series could often be unsubtle, seeming like a bunch of super-powered Very Special Episodes, but it did tackle complicated, controversial issues at a time when that was unusual in comics, going in much deeper than most comics or, indeed, TV shows and movies of the time were willing to, climaxing in a storyline where Green Arrow's Robin-esque ward Speedy is revealed to be a heroin addict.
This was also the era where John Stewart, one of the first black comics superheroes, became a Green Lantern. He was chosen as a backup should Hal be incapacitated, and the friction between the older, upper-class, staid Jordan, training the young, lower-class, social-injustice-conscious Stewart was yet another storytelling device O' Neil and Adams used.
Indeed, more and more members of the Green Lantern Corps were becoming Recurrers in the series. A Tales Of The Green Lantern Corps backup was a regular feature, with one-off tales of alien Lanterns like Rot Lop Fan, the Lantern with no concept of "light" or "green" who became the F-Sharp Bell, and Mogo, the Lantern who was actually a single sentient planet.
The O' Neil/Adams run was, however, cancelled with issue 89. Green Lantern was without a series for the first time since the beginning of the Silver Age, his only appearances in Justice League Of America and a series of Flash backups.
He wouldn't return until four years later, as part of the short-lived "DC Explosion" of new and relaunched titles. The focus was back on space adventure, with Hal sent into space for a Comic Book Time year, having been accused of spending too much time on Earth and not enough on the other planets in his sector. When he came back, his life was a shambles, and he resigned, with John Stewart becoming his replacement.
John did fairly well, holding his own in several adventures and marrying Katma Tui, an alien GL who trained him on Oa, but as of Crisis On Infinite Earths and the beginning of the Dark Age, Hal returned. The Guardians left with the Zamarons and the Corps was restructured, with Hal, John, Guy Gardner, and several alien G Ls, such as Mr Fixit Kilowog and Looney Tunes-esque Ch'p, all residing on Earth. The series was renamed Green Lantern Corps, and a new Green Lantern series started with a new #1.
Eventually, the Earth-based corps broke up, and the members went their separate ways.
John Stewart went through a series of terrible events, culminating in an overconfident failure to keep a planet from exploding, and leaving him contemplating suicide (only to be talked out of it by the Martian Manhunter). He eventually got his own book, Green Lantern: Mosaic, featuring his adventures in trying to lead a patchwork world made of chunks teleported from different planets.
Guy Gardner came back a tragic figure, brain damage having reduced his intellect to that of a child, manipulated by Sinestro into attacking the others. However, his resulting tough-guy persona became popular with the Anti Hero fans of the day, and he became the Lantern to join the Post Crisis incarnation of the Justice League Of America.
Unfortunately, sales started to slip again. This was the era of Superman dying and Batman getting his back broken, so the top brass decided a big event was necessary to pull GL back into the common eye. So, over the course of three issues, in a storyline called Emerald Twilight, Hal Jordan went insane from the destruction of Coast City (a dangling plot point from the aforementioned Superman's-death storyline) and furious at the recently-returned Guardians for denying him the power to restore it. He went on a rampage, tearing through the ranks of the Corps, killing and taking their power, and finally landing on Oa, where he fought and seemingly killed Sinestro before blowing up the planet and absorbing the power of the Central Power Battery, gaining immense power and calling himself Parallax.
Meanwhile, back on Earth, the last Guardian landed in an alley, desperately looking for someone to take the last ring and battery. Of the two people there, one was a drunk throwing up in a corner, so he gave it to the other, Kyle Rayner, a freelance artist who'd just ducked out of a party for some air. Thrust into battle against Parallax, Kyle managed to survive and even drive him away for a time.
Thus, all other Lanterns were written out; John was crippled and the Mosaic world destroyed, Guy had already been kicked out of the Corps, using Sinestro's old yellow ring instead, Alan had internalized the power and started calling himself Sentinel. The Powers That Be At DC decreed there be only one Green Lantern, and Kyle was it.
Naturally, there was a fair backlash from this; turning a beloved character into a raging psychopath and replacing him with a newer, "cooler" version tends to alienate fans. But Kyle was given good characterization, focusing on him being a callow newbie with big shoes to fill, and he brought an entirely different demographic onto the book. It helped that he was part of the big, "back-to-basics" Justice League Of America relaunch a few years later.
By this point, the Dark Age was beginning to give way to the Modern Age, and the "reconstruction" trends were gearing up. So, slowly, the DC brass moved back towards the idea that multiple Green Lanterns might just be more interesting storywise than a single one, and that turning the Silver Age GL into a cackling supervillain may not have been the best idea.
The latter was redeemed in the Final Night Crisis Crossover, sacrificing himself to re-ignite the sun. Meanwhile, Kyle had already met pre-evil Hal through time travel, and gotten a copy of his ring. With it, he restored the Green Lantern Corps, giving, among others, John back the ring, and restoring the Guardians and Oa. These rings were, like Kyle's own, totally missing the yellow vulnerability. Alan started wearing a ring and calling himself Green Lantern again. (Guy, meanwhile, was in comfortable retirement, running a bar for superheroes named "Warriors".)
Hal, through the Day of Judgment Mini Series, became bonded with an old Golden Age character called the Spectre, and set off on his own mystical ongoing series about the nature of revenge and redemption. However, it didn't do very well. And the reintroduction of classic elements of the Green Lantern mythos was doing very well indeed.
So, in 2004, the first issue of the Green Lantern: Rebirth miniseries came out. It applied a layer of Ret Con to the entire Post Crisis GLC.
It seems that the "yellow impurity" that made the rings of Corps members unable to affect anything yellow-colored was actually an ancient being, a parasitic Anthropomorphic Personification of fear, named Parallax. Millions of years ago, it fought the Guardians, and they sealed it within the Central Power Battery. For typical You Are Not Ready reasons, they figured it would be better to let the universe forget Parallax's existence.
Thus, for millions of years, it lay dormant. One day, though, Sinestro, similarly imprisoned in the Power Battery, made contact with it, and realized how it could be used to bring his greatest enemy down. He guided it to Hal Jordan, and for years, Parallax worked on his mind, increasing his self-doubt, and aging his body (as seen in the early Dark Age GL comics). When Coast City was destroyed, Parallax's hold was cemented, and he was able to bring Jordan to Oa and destroy the Power Battery, freeing both Sinestro and Parallax.
Kyle's ring's lack of a yellow weakness was thus explained as Parallax being out of the battery, and the Spectre's merging was an attempt to remove Parallax from Jordan's soul. With this knowledge, his own willpower, and Kyle's help, Hal was finally able to free himself from Parallax. Together, Hal, Kyle, John, Guy, and Kilowog defeated Parallax and re-imprisoned him inside the Central Power Battery. The yellow weakness was restored, but can now be overcome with sufficient willpower. Furthermore, the Corps is restored, and doubled in size so that two Lanterns now cover the sector (presumably not including backup Lanterns).
This was an interesting way of doing things, in that it restored the original without getting rid of his replacement. In the series, Kyle is actually acknowledged as stronger than Hal; he's the one who brought back the Corps, the one who kept the light shining through the dark years.
For now, each Green Lantern has a place in The DCU. Hal stars in the Green Lantern ongoing; Kyle and Guy are "Honor Guard" Lanterns — Lanterns not assigned to any specific space sector but rather routed to trouble spots that the regular Lanterns can't handle on their own — and appear in the Green Lantern Corps ongoing; Alan is an elder statesman in the Justice Society Of America; and John, who is Jordan's partner in Earth's sector, also serves on the Justice League Of America. And it's a better place for it.
Recently, the second part of Geoff Johns' Green Lantern "trilogy" has been completed. Known as the Sinestro Corps War, it reveals a number of other Corps based on colors and emotions. Green had been established of the color of willpower and Yellow as the color of fear in Rebirth; Sinestro Corps War filled in the rest of the spectrum: Red is rage, Orange is greed, Yellow is fear, Green is Willpower, Blue is hope, Indigo is compassion, and Violet is love (and yes, comics nerds immediately started making jokes about giving Obama a blue ring). The titular Sinestro Corps is the first army of a color other than green (being based off of yellow fear), and it is shown in a prophecy near the end of the story, and subsequent events in Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps, that soon all the colors will have their own Corps of ring-slingers. It sold incredibly well—to the point that extra issues were added to it—and received high reviews. The last issue included a "trailer" of sorts for the final part of the trilogy, called Blackest Night, to be released in 2009.
In one episode of Duck Dodgers, Duck temporarily becomes a Green Lantern when he receives the ring and uniform as the result of a drycleaning mixup. Especially notable because the episode featured many characters that have actually appeared in the DCU, including Hal Jordan.
Bring The Noise: I've done some trimming, but it's still overlong and overly detailed, IMO. I'll try to get back to it, but I've got to do some work just now.
715: Yeah that was the main reason for I made the character sheet.
biznizz: Could someone either correct the massive spelling and grammar errors made by 123.2.252.152, or by his major alterations, change them back. I gotta get some sleeepppppp......
Jack Butler: Could the "Hal Jordan Patriot" who keeps removing the line "*** The entire ham-handed way that Hal Jordan was brought back and Kyle Rayner was shoved to the side." please stop doing so? Half the fan-base of the Green Lantern title sees the return of Hal Jordan and the way he supplanted Kyle Rainer as a Wallbanger. Just because you don't doesn't mean they don't. So please stop the edit war. Thanks.
gibberingtroper: And what were they supposed to do? They turned the beloved Hal Jordan into a Complete Monster pissing off the entire Green Lantern fanbase of that era. The outrage over that did not die over the entire decade since then. The only reason it seemed to lessen is because Kyle brought in his own fans who didn't know or care about Hal and who found the sensitive artist more appealing than the cocksure adventurer (although he had become somewhat less cocksure by the time he made this turn).
Were we supposed to just sit back and accept that this one guy would forever replace the dozens of characters we enjoyed just because the 1994 Executive Meddling called for Darker and Edgier to the point of complete Character Derailment? Johns did everything he possibly could to satisfy both bases. He brought back Hal Jordan in a way that meshed with a surprising amount of his backstory, gave Kyle an honored place among the Corps (which tied into what he did as Ion before Hal's return.) And the consequences of that storyline have dovetailed into everything that has happened since, from the Sinestro Corps to the Blackest Night.
The point of removing that entry (not that I was the one doing it) was that Hal Jordan's departure as a Complete Monster was far more "hamhanded" than his return. His return and the way his departure was retconned makes far more sense.
gibberingtroper Also, it seems that Kyle Rayner has his own patriot.
- Kyle Rayner: Introduced in the 90s as the younger, more hip replacement to Hal Jordan. For which he got lots of hate in the beginning, sadly. Despite this, he managed to build up his own personality and get his own share of fans. Was the first GL not to have a weakness in his ring as well as became the avatar for the entity "Ion", which turned Kyle into a "super Green Lantern" before said mantle was passed on to Sodom Yat. Died, having heroically sacrificed his life in the Blackest Night X-Over in order to save the planet Oa from the Black Lanterns. He got better. His replacement as Green Lantern by a returning Hal Jordan is considered by fans of the character as a big "screw you" on the part of DC Comics. According to Dream of the Endless, it is he, and not Hal Jordan or Sodam Yat (see below), who will ultimately be remembered as the greatest of all Green Lanterns.
- "Dream Of the Endless" reference was an offhand mention made 12 or 13 years ago in JLA when it was written by Grant Morrison. Every conception Morrison and other writers had of the DCU future during that era assumed the Green Lantern Corp would not return, nor would Hal. Also, this was years before a major Cosmic Retcon, and the references to the new character "Sodam Yat" being the greatest Green Lantern are far more recent, are being made by the Guardians, and are current continuity.
- To put it another way Dream certainly did not say "Kyle it is you, not Hal Jordan or Sodam Yat who will be the greatest Green Lantern of all" because this was about a decade before Sodam Yat was created. Now, I'm not championing Yat here, but I think other troper can see how the Kyle Rayner entry has substantial bias in it.
- Also, its more likely that this one fan and a handful of others see the move as a "screw you." Kyle got honored status, while I would argue with his designation as being "greatest" the Guardians did see him as special and treated him as such. The Lanterns rally around him (as seen recently when he died and the Black Lantern tried to claim him), even Guy gives him respect (which he never gave to Jordan.) They could have killed Kyle off to make room for Hal, but they gave us back Hal while giving Kyle a boost. So its not likely a large portion of the Green Lantern fanbase is seeing this as a "screw you."
gibberingtroper: Who's the "patriot" now Jack Butler? I wrote this:
- If by "shoved aside" you mean "all-but canonized in the Book of Oa for being The Messiah who 'bore the light when no one else could' and who was thus annointed by the Guardians as their first Ion, as well as being given a post on the Honor Guard and a new comic book title and a new girlfriend." Then yes, Kyle was "shoved side."
- in response to this:
- The entire ham-handed way that Hal Jordan was brought back and Kyle Rayner was shoved to the side."
- Which Jack Butler has already stated we can't delete. He then deleted my entry within an hour or two with the explanation "Snark Natter" So only this one view of his is allowed to stand and it must stand unopposed in spite of the substantial in story evidence that shows that Kyle Rayner was not "shoved aside." Either the "hamhanded" entry should go or a proper response should be allowed. Which is it?
Jack Butler: Thank you for providing proof that I was correct in your motivations regarding your edits.
gibberingtroper: Is that all you've got to say for yourself? Yes, my intentions should be pretty clear. The idea that Kyle Rayner was "shoved aside" in a "hamhanded" manner is ridiculous. He is a lead character in the Green Lantern Corps title, he got his own special miniseries, he was the first new Ion, he gets all kinds of props from the Guardians and other Lanterns. In what universe is this considered being "shoved aside?"
But what's more ridiculous is that you are apparently squatting on that entry restoring it when it gets deleted (which, no I didn't do, that was someone else) and deleting any entry that disagrees with your opinion. I'm not the one doing this. You are. I've yet to try to restore what my deleted post, nor have I tried to delete yours (or whoever's entry you're defending here.) I'm here in this discussion area trying to present my argument and you have nothing to offer in response.
I'm not some partisan here with an agenda. I like Hal and Kyle (only exception was the Judd Winick run) and Guy and John and the whole Corps. But your actions suggest you wanted a Kyle only title and you are furious that DC is making your favorite Lantern share his world with others. I want a real answer from you or I'm adding back some kind of response to that bullet point, one that you can't simply dismiss with the phrase "Snark Natter."
gibberingtroper: Okay, I see you cleaned it up a bit. You have an entry now that says "The hamhanded replacement of Hal Jordan with Kyle Rayner." and one thats the exact reverse as references to Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner. This doesn't really work as a compromise though as it doesn't reflect the truth. Hal really was replaced by Kyle. In fact, Kyle basically replaced everybody, with Hal popping in to be a villain every great once in a while, and Guy off in his own unsuccessful title trying to be the Darker and Edgier Warrior. That entry is true. The other entry about Hal replacing Kyle is not true. Hal is around, Kyle is around. Kyle even got to be extra special for a while. They are both appearing monthly. Kyle and his fans got far better treatment in this recent transition than Hal's fans did in the original one. They are not equivalent.
I appreciate your attempt at equity, don't get me wrong, but this isn't about some arbitrary "balance" for me, this is about accurately reflecting what happened.
Jack Butler: The problem being, your opinion regarding what "accurately reflecting what happened" means and the opinion of a Kyle Rayner partisan on what those words mean differ greatly. And he's got the same right to his opinion as you do. I'm just asking that you not fight this war on this page.
Seriously, your problem seems to be "they didn't turn Kyle Rayner into a villain, ergo everything is sunshine and puppies for fans of the character", when the truth is nowhere near that. An entire generation of comic book readers grew up with Kyle Rayner as their Lantern, and they do not know nor care about Hal Jordan, and thus feel just as disenfranchised as you did with Hal Jordan. So leave it be, please.
{gibberingtroper}: How is that my opinion? My opinion, stated over and over again, is that Kyle is still a regular character in his own title and has gotten a lot of special treatment and is, if anything, even more special now than when he was a solo act. In what universe is that being "shoved aside in a hamhanded manner?" And if he is as entitled to his opinion as I am to mine, then how come I'm not allowed to post some kind of rebuttal? Yes, my first response was a bit snarky, but it fit with the tone of the post I was responding to.
How about this?
- Your Mileage May Vary: Interviews with Geoff Johns and other creators have noted how they went to pains to please fans of both characters, and in fact, Kyle is still a main character in the Green Lantern Corps title and had a year long miniseries devoted to him when he became Ion again.
Capn Andy: Did a massive trim-and-edit job on the article, which was way too long and way too Kyle-era focused. Also, a lot of the linked tropes ("fan disillusionment" for bringing back Hal, riiiight) are doing this weird passive-agressive arguing that any point of view other than rabid Kyle love and Hal hatred is wrong. I mean, look at this:
His replacement as Green Lantern by a returning Hal Jordan is considered by fans of the character as a big "screw you" on the part of DC Comics.
Makes you wish we had a Citation Needed tag, don't it? So I toned that down too, let's try to stick to reality here. Also also, there was a lot of passive voice and a lot of other grammatical and spelling errors.
Attention Kyle Warrior, whoever you are: Please refer to the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement and stay away. Your spelling and grammar is atrocious anyway.
gibberingtroper Thank you Cap Andy. Thats what this whole entry needed, a neutral tone with an active voice. I agree that, while there was probably a staunch Hal defender out there working on this article, the "Kyle Warrior" was much more active and it showed in several entries. (Particularly the one you reference here which is what got me going on my rant.)
While I'm all for the "free and open" policy of TV Tropes, the phrase "is considered by many fans" in this instance just doesn't ring true. I'll buy that there were Green Lantern fans that liked only having Kyle, there are advantages to that approach which played as influences on the editorial decision to have the "Emerald Twilight" series in the first place. But Green Lantern Rebirth is a widely hailed, well received title and the critics I follow mostly like Johns and what he has done with the Lanterns. Also, it sold really well. Johns also kept Kyle around and helped to alleviate some of the problems that existed previously with the Corps (giving Lanterns more individuality and more kinds of distinctions.) So yeah, I'd like to see some citation on a post like the one you highlighted.
Again, Thank you.
godhumanmonster: I still think this article opens with WAY too much information. Particularly, the bios for notable Lanterns as well as the character's evolution through the years could use more succinct definitions, like a sentence or two for each character or notable storyline. I would be willing to do this unless someone feels otherwise.
biznizz: I feel that the article is fine myself. Green Lantern has been one of the flagship titles of DC since the Golden Age and unlike Superman or Batman, who have been more or less unchanged since their creation, Green Lantern mythos has continuously changed for years. If you read Superman in 1987 and didn't read one until 1997, you won't have missed a whole lot (other than plot, supporting characters, etc) since Status Quo Is God. You can't do that with G.L., you read G.L. with Hal, Guy, and John in the 80's, take a ten year break and pick one up in the 90's and see everything has changed (no Corps, no familiar supporting characters, new protagonist, etc).
CapnAndy: I think the length on the descriptions is okay. The aliens get a much briefer description than the main human lanterns, and you gotta tell people who each of the human lanterns are because there's five of the motherfuckers and, like biznizz said, we can't assume people are going to come in familiar with all five. DCAU fans will know John Stewart, Silver Age fans know Hal, etc.
biznizz: Someone keep an eye on the article, Jack Butler is still hovering like a hawk about Kyle Rayner. Just remember: EVERY Lantern is important, and absolutely KEEP IT NEUTRAL. Seriously, these Base Splitting arguments are starting to get really old.
gibberingtroper: Okay, now its just plain ridiculous Jack! You added back the "Dreamer of the Endless" line saying Kyle was destined to be the greatest Lantern of all time in order "to balance out all the praise Hal gets in his entry?" The closest thing I can find to praise in his personal entry is "Due to having the longest tenure as Green Lantern, he's the flagship character of the franchise, and is the main focus of Green Lantern."
His entry is otherwise netural and, even with the edits I did to Kyle's entry, Kyle still gets more praise in his article than Hal does. I don't mind Kyle getting praise, its just the "Dream of the Endless" reference is very obscure and completely irrelevant given when and where it was said. I even left in the bit about Sodam Yat remembering Kyle as the greatest Lantern because that reference is at least current and part of the GL continuity. I'm taking out the "Dream of the Endless" line again. I don't want to start an edit war, but this is really ridiculous.
- (update): I don't know how this snuck past me, but Jack Butler entered in the line "and was generally written as more imaginative (and thus more resourceful) than Hal Jordan." First, more imaginative does not always mean more resourceful, imagination is not always practical even when you can make your thoughts into ring constructs. Second, specifically saying Kyle is "more imaginative than Hal" as opposed to simply saying something like "Kyle is a particularly imaginative Green Lantern" or "Being an artist, Kyle is a particularly creative Green Lantern" smacks of the bias you deny having. Why specifically compare him to Hal? He's more imaginative than any of the main Green Lantern characters. I'm fixing the entry.
Jack Butler: Blame the writers, not me. Several of them have openly admitted that yes, this is how they were writing Kyle as opposed to how they were writing Hal. Hal sees the problem and barrels through using grit and determination. Kyle sees the problem and thinks his way around it. They even had Hal Jordan explicitly say that Kyle Rainer is more imaginative and resourceful that he, himself, is.
gibberingtroper: I suppose they're the two Lanterns you would compare (since the distinctions between Hal, John, and Guy were mostly established decades ago. And Guy and John had already met Kyle before Hal's return.) If you can give me one source where Marz or Johns says he's more resourceful than Kyle, I have no. Otherwise, the only trait thats been clearly established in the comics is the imagination and creativity.
Personally, even if they do say that he's the "resourceful" one, I think its an informed ability at best but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it being in the entry if they do say that. The only time I've seen him that way was during his run under Morrison's JLA (to be fair, most writers don't have Morrison's sheer imagination.)
As for the "better at X than Hal" stuff, even if you have a quote for that, we have a problem with bias going back and forth in this article and I think its best to stick to saying he's the imaginative one, or maybe the most imaginative of the Lanterns we've seen (there are 7200 of them, we never know, but I would guess he's more imaginative than them too since he's not normally the kind of Lantern the Guardians pick, sadly.) Saying he has more of something than Hal is less informative anyway. How imaginative is Kyle compared to John or Guy or Kilowog? All we know is that he's more imaginative than Hal. If anything, my version is giving Kyle more credit.
