Ask The Tropers

To be fair, I was the one who took it to the Rule of Cautious Editing thread as well. It's common knowledge that the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the messiah because they thought the prophecy foretold a God-Emperor that would conquer Rome for them, even His own disciples would ask Him if He was going to smite people. And I was paraphrasing an article on the subject in a prominent Israeli newspaper, as seen by the link in the first sentence. We can change the wording, but everything in this entry is factually correct.

Personally, I'm conflicted.

I'd say the second part, about the current status is fine since the treatment of Palestinian under the current Israeli government is no secret and since the example differentiates between the different groups within the Jewish religion rather than just treating them all as one as an anti-semite would do.

The first part after the first sentence, however, I'm not so sure.

Now, granted, I'm in no way, shape or form an expert on Judaism. My knowledge is rather basic. But from what I know, the part about Jesus and their messiah freeing them from the Romans is true. The part about establishing a One World Order, on the other hand, is news to me. I know that according to their beliefs, they were promised a homeland where all Jews could live together in peace and prosperity as its rulers but I've never heard anything about them being promised World Domination and being elevated to the supreme group of people from any source that was not obviously anti-semetic.

But, as I said, my knowledge on Judaism is quite basic. So I'd suggest doing some serious fact-checking of the whole "One World Order where they are the supreme group of people ruling over all others"-thing.

I mean. The entry is just a flowery version of saying "... the Jews!"

Like, it goes from "Jewish people aren't immune to it" to "The Jewish people were always ethnocentric" in a heartbeat. The former is entirely true. The latter is treating Judaism as a monolith and judging it by its most extreme.

Going "I was paraphrasing an article!" is a tough sell for me because that article is basically an op-ed, and behind a log-in so I haven't read it but it at least partially gives me pause since the entry is treating something as a foundation part of Judaism that the article, at the very least, is explicitly referring to as novel (now, whether it's solely novel due to opportunity or not I can't tell, but it's odd).

I would say the entry needs to be at the very least edited, if not cut, and Master Race may need to become a NRLEP.

The entry was already cut over a month ago, although they didn't cite any thread for a reason. Currently, it's not on the page (unless I'm missing something here).

https://web.archive.org/web/20230410125906/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-04-08/ty-article-magazine/israels-rule-over-the-palestinians-has-created-a-new-judaism/00000187-5d43-dde0-afb7-7f53f63f0000 From the article itself, in a prominent Israeli newspaper, written by an Israeli political scientist: "If the face of Judaism reflects the situation of Jews, and if Jews shape Judaism in keeping with the circumstances of time and place – then what Jews are doing in the sovereign State of Israel is also shaping Judaism. Sovereignty involves the exercise of effective rule over a territory and a population. It behooves us, then, to consider how ruling a territory and population has changed Judaism. And, in the main, how rule over a non-Jewish population – in our case, the Palestinians – has spawned a new Judaism.

There is no precedent in Jewish history for the existence of a Jewish state that constitutes a regional power and rules another people. Never before has the Jewish people possessed a combination like this of sovereignty, power and control, which are being exploited to oppress another people. The Hasmonean Kingdom (140-63 B.C.E.) was not a regional power. The Hasmonean ruler and high priest John Hyrcanus I converted the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Edom to Judaism in 125 B.C.E., after conquering them. But a mass conversion to Judaism of the Palestinians was not and is not on the agenda – they are meant to remain outside the Jewish collective.

The Jewish people was always ethnocentric. It believes in the supremacy of its ethnic collective over other nations. This is a blatantly hierarchical conception, according to which the Jew is superior to the non-Jew. But throughout history, this was a supremacy that lacked the force of a state and an apparatus for wielding control over non-Jews. On the contrary: The Jews were inferior in status in the social and religious order that was established by the empires and states that ruled them over two millennia.

Internally, by contrast, Jewish writings and conduct accorded with the self-perception of being a chosen people. In the 11th and 12th centuries C.E., Maimonides explained that this was based on what Jews saw as the supremacy of the Torah, their religion and way of life, while, on the other hand, Rabbi Yehuda Halevi believed that the collective possessed an existential-biological supremacy vis-à-vis other peoples. And in the late 18th century, Rabbi Shneur Zalman, the founder of the Chabad Hasidic dynasty, wrote in the “Tanya” about the Jewish soul being superior to the inferior soul of the rest of humanity.

Grounded in these notions of supremacy, Jewish messianism connoted the establishment of a new world order, in which Jews would openly realize their spiritual and political supremacy over other peoples. There was an expectation that messianism would create a new reality and would be spearheaded by a descendant of King David. Jewish tradition states that God will establish this new order at some point in the future. For their part, the rabbis of the Hasidic dynasty transposed the idea of the new order from a sought-after historical reality into a form of mental consciousness. The result was the emergence of a concrete spiritualization of messianism, severed from historic reality."

Don't act like I'm making things up because you all can't be bothered to read, everything I said was quoting an expert on the subject. This all started because the entry was cut without reason, leaving me entirely within my rights to restore it but I decided to seek approval first only to be sent running in circles to multiple threads. For the last time; I can change the wording, but I cannot change the facts. Obviously not all Jews are like this, I know several who are critical of their community for this exact reason.

Thanks for the link. Interesting read, but at the end of the day it reaffirms the fact this is an op-ed and the opinions of anyone, expert is not, is not enough for an entry claiming that the Jews are inherently supremacists.

Nobody is arguing that they're all supremacist, it's stating that their culture enables it and it's growing in Israel specifically, not that all Jews are racist. I can change the wording to emphasize the point.

Except that the entry (devoid of all context) does argue that Jews are all supremacist, especially in its original form, which only mentions Israeli racism against Palestinians and not towards non-European Jewish ethnic groups. Regardless of the source, the bulk of it is blatantly antisemitic, and I’d agree that it ought to stay cut.

You're deliberately taking it out of context when the link providing it is in the first sentence (I can replace it with the archived version), and calling me an anti-semite for quoting an expert on Jewish culture.

@Arctimon - it was cut, but it was specifically quoted in the NLREP thread.

^^^ then why not mention Jewish supremacists? the wording right now — esp with the "their culture enables it" — makes it seem like All of Judaism Is About The Master Race when there are clearly anti-Zionist Jews and Jews who reject fundamentalism or shunning goys. by that logic every damn ethnic group and culture can be argued to be psycho eugenicists because "their culture enables" colonialism, and im not just talking about Europeans, because 'invading and replacing minority cultures' has echoed through history from the Hawaiian islands invading each other, Aztec and Mayan enslavement of tribes around them, to Japan's "Greater East Asia".

I'd be happy to, I never set out to offend anyone. The whole reason I brought it up in the thread was to seek help with making the wording more palatable.

How's this:

• Ironically, despite their suffering at the hands of the Nazis over this belief the Jews haven't been immune to it either. While Judaism's designation of their ethnic collective as The Chosen People was never intended to diminish others, as with all ethnic groups there have been those who end up using this as an excuse to see themselves as superior to other races. However, as Jews have been heavily discriminated against throughout their history the extremists within the community lacked the force of a state and an apparatus for wielding control over non-Jews until the formation of modern Israel, in which the Palestinians living under them are heavily discriminated against in turn. No True Scotsman is in full effect as well, as black African Jews (largely Ethiopians) have also been treated very badly, as have some Middle Eastern Jews (in spite of Jews' origins being there) and Christian converts because European Jews are the rulers overall, with many holding racist views.

…I’m honestly trying to understand why we need this example at all? Beyond the fact that, yes, the original wording does read anti-Semitic and takes a very fringe look at Jewish theology (disclaimer: Presbyterian with an interest in comparative theology here), the entire thing’s flame bait, and we’ve got enough of that on the site.

(Apologies if this is the wrong place to say that; if so, please ignore everything but my answer to your initial question)

Yeah, that's pretty bad and antisemitic.

I am in favor of keeping RL examples for Master Race AND cutting this one.

Real Life examples are meant to give a trope context and in the case of a trope like this one, named after a real life ideology, it's useful to contextualize the history of the term under Nazism and precursors that inspired Nazism.

So I'd limit it to RL examples where the term has been used irl and where historians agree it's appropriate.

I suggested in the Real Life thread that it be changed to No Recent Examples for that reason, but until then the example is completely appropriate as there are many within the nation's culture espousing this view and showing that despite history's lessons we keep making the same mistakes. Being a victim doesn't give one a free pass to victimize others, and the original wording is irrelevant as it's since been changed.

Just chiming in to say that "Real Life" examples of Master Race should logically be for real Master Races. If, however, master races are not real, then Master Race should not have a "Real Life" section at all.

As for works of propaganda or ideology reflecting a belief in master races, these are media, not "Real Life", and belong in media folders.

I dont wanna be mean but I think its ill advised to keep this going, Janky...

I'm tempted to agree that the trope should be made NRLEP, but it is a trope that is founded on various historical forms of extremism, and I'd like to be able to acknowledge that. Still, this very discussion shows that it might be too flamebait-y.

Also, because I don't think it's been brought up yet, the mention of Jesus in the original entry doesn't sit well with me. It's so obviously written by someone from the Christian cultural sphere (whether or not they're a believer). Jesus isn't someone important in Judaism, so why evaluate 1st century BCE Jews by how they viewed him? That's like taking the fact that Christianity rejects Mohammed as a prophet and making a big deal out of it.

Looks like we need an expert on Jewish history for this.

The article I quoted was written by an expert on Jewish history. The mention of Jesus was to provide historical context for the evolution of Zionism, with the point now being moot. Also, real master races go under Superior Species, the trope is intended to describe cultures and groups who simply believe themselves to be this.

The article you quoted was written not by an expert on Jewish history, but by a professor of Political Studies at Bar-Ilan University.

An Israeli political scientist, one of the leaders of the Geneva Initiative, and an advisor to the Israeli delegation in negotiations with the Palestine Liberation Organization in 2000. He's one of the foremost voices on this topic.

I agree with Doktor, this trope is TOO TROUBLESOME to keep Real Life.

Yeah, this has dragged on long enough, let's just have the Real Life thread decide a path forward and table this for now.

Couldn’t agree more.