Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
It's kind of why I don't see Commander Shepard from Mass Effect counting. If we were just counting a Renegade path, I'd say they would be an easy keep, but I don't believe a full Paragon path does enough bad to count as a bastard.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Caesar
Yeah, if Arthur's High Honor endings were the explicitly "canon" endings, he'd be fine, and indeed many people (including Arthur's VA, IIRC) consider that to be the most sensibly canon...buuuuut as of this point, it hasn't been confirmed nor denied which of the endings are canon by Rockstar itself, so technically no single ending is more notable than any other.
Though uh as an aside, I don't really think Renegade Shepherd would be an "easy keep" regardless of endings or canons considering the...abundant xenophobia they engage in. At least Arthur, regardless of honor levels, generally shows a disdain for prejudice of any kind lmao
Edited by Ravok on Apr 30th 2024 at 11:02:11 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Hah I always thought Renegase Shepard's xenophobia was more tongue in cheek comedy rather anything serious. You know, "big stupid jellyfish" and all that. I never figured it was anything to take serious considering Shepard has a multiracial team throughout the games.
Not that it really matters too much, as I wasn't going to try and propose Shepard anyways.
More on topic, I proposed the Player Character from Fallout 1 since his story path is canonized by the 2nd game's manual.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 30th 2024 at 11:10:14 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Diya, Phil
Abstain on Tsar, not sure she's bad enough.
Why would Brawl Dedede not be on it? He is a Kirby character who is a MB. and I don't think much discussion is warranted when we have 8 which is required for the page
Admittedly Brawl Dedede is more of me personally feeling that he shouldn't be there, if others are fine with it I won't fight it.
But on the discussion part, typically there is discussion about making a new page even if a series has 8 candidates instead of just making a page, especially when the candidates are scattered across several different pages (and in this case, we will need to find a new quote for the video games page if the page is kept).
Like I said, I'm not opposed to keeping or having the page but there should've been some discussion about creating it first.
Not the Eye
Bell and I think Maiden
Also just to announce me and mir will be splitting My Adventures with Superman season 2 as on other thread.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I apologize on that note. Yeah your right if it's kept we will need a new quote
Brawl!Dedede should be there IMO
You've been kicked out of the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. :(
Here's the writeup for Q*bert!
- Animator vs. Animation:
- [Everyone else]
- Animation vs. Arcade Games: Q*bert is a clever trickster that's more malicious than usual. Coming to life and escaping his game, Q*bert quickly begins messing with the remaining arcade games, causing glitches and kidnapping their protagonists. Once the Stick Gang tries to stop him, Q*bert steals their arcade machine and sends them on a chase spanning multiple games, sending new traps and enemies after them all while easily outmaneuvering and taunting them. Confronting them for one final battle in his own world, Q*bert uses the arcade machine to mind control the arcade game protagonists into fighting for him, before defeating the Stick Gang himself once cornered. Once Yellow manages to finally beat him, it's revealed Q*bert was just trying to provide food for his children, and then proceeds to change for the better once Yellow promises to help him, ending the episode with a new group of friends.
What's the Work?
The work is Interview with the Vampire (2022), the AMC series adapting Anne Rice's novel of the same name, featuring the interview given by Louis as the framing device where he discusses his past with his vampire lover Lestat and daughter Claudia.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
Claudia is the candidate. As a vampire, she is trapped in the body she had when she turned which was at age 14 and she hadn't yet really started puberty. One of her biggest goals in season one is that she wants to be free of Lestat's abuse, and she wants the same for her adoptive father Louis. One of her endgames is trying to kill Lestat so that this could come to pass.
How is she a bitch? How is she not too bad?
Claudia is a vampire, so she naturally preys on humans, usually killing them. This is the same kind of activity that Louis and Lestat often engage in. However, one major point of immorality for her is her becoming a Serial Killer. She preyed on 56 innocent humans, killing them, feeding on them, and even collecting trophies and keeping a kill list of them all.
The main reason why she's not too bad is the extenuating circumstances of her nature and the reason she ended up going on her rampage along with her genuine love for her adoptive father. She was not turned into a vampire by her own choice, and was turned at a prepubescent age which has left her unable to ever explore healthy romantic relationships because her body will never mature past her current age even while her mind matures. It leaves her with a gaping hole in her heart, which was only widened when she accidentally killed the first boy she fell in love with, and received less-than sympathetic treatment from the highly abusive Lestat. She also sincerely loves her adoptive father Louis and wants them both to be free from the more evil Lestat's abuse of them both.
How is she magnificent?
She pulls a flawless Batman Gambit, outgambitting Lestat in a way that he really didn't see coming. She's the one who comes up with the plan to kill Lestat by poisoning him. However, it's revealed that Antoinette had been turned into a vampire, and could read Claudia and Louis's thoughts, and she uses this to derail her plan. Except then it's revealed that Claudia knew all along that Antoinette was following and keeping tabs on them.
Claudia throughout the entire duration of her plan had to keep Louis in the dark a bit about what she actually planned to do, as well as keep close tabs on her own very thoughts lest she inadvertently let Antoinette know what she planned. Instead of poisoning the intended victim that she and Louis originally planned on, Claudia remembered someone giving Lestat a petty slight, which she knew would entice Lestat to sadistically kill him. In her own words, "Always the petty slights with you, Uncle Les." In the moment of weakness that Antoinette has when Lestat starts coughing up blood, Claudia takes the chance and kills her. She does all of this so that she and Louis could finally be free of Lestat's abuse, as well as for some payback. Were it not for Louis's moment of weakness regarding Lestat, Claudia's plan to get rid of him would have gone without a single hitch.
Final verdict?
Claudia leans further into the "bitch/bastard" aspect than a lot of other cases, but I truly believe she qualifies for this trope.
Yeah, though thankfully we have a dearth of possible quotes on the quotes page.
On that note though, I'll ask the thread: Are we fine with keeping Kirby?
for Claudia btw.
Dagded Dujardin
Claudia
Not the Eye
Claudia
And to kick this off.
What is the work?
The Grimm Variations is recent 6 episode Netflix original anime anthology series. It tell 6 stories which vary from just being darker reteling of famous Brothers Grimm fairy tales to using them as inspirations for their own stories.
Episode two follows Mr. Gray, rich CEO in the future where artificial reality has blured the lines between reality and fiction. Grey is member of the Wolf’s Club which experiences authenticity by one thing, The Wolf’s Night, night where member isolates lone woman and tortures her to death. Gray however wants more, he wants to hunt and as such goes into the poor area and requests “little red riding hood” as his prey. However, one he gets proves to be more than he bargained for.
Who is Scarlet? What has she done?
Mysterious woman wearing red jacket, Scarlet is Little Red Riding Hood that mysterious Madam pairs Grey with. Scarlet however refuses to go into rich are and instead requests Grey to come to her, meeting when he seemingly saves her from guy who won’t take no for the response while Grey waits for moment to strike.
Talking with Grey, Scarlet eventually invites him to her apartment on the drink. They have talk and even seem to hit it off as Grey slowly loses conciusnes and realises something, Scarlet has same scent as him. Grey awakens in bound on the bed as Scarlet uses medical knives on him, revealing that she was aware he was stalking her and played weak with the guy to lure him out, with glimpses to overgrown coats and valuables her apartment confirming he is not her first victim. She cuts off his torso as she recals ending of the Red Riding Hood story.
Scarlet is last seen meeting with Madam requesting blood, whether her own or someone elses.
Is she magnificent?
She is expert on luring her prey out in the open and into false sense of security, all while being charming and cool even as she tortures him to death.
Is she bastard?
Yeah she gruesomely kills people for thril of the hunt not caring if they are guilty or innocent. That said Grey completely has it coming and given in what industry she works, her other victims very likely far from innocent themselves. That and her from what we see in her interaction with Madam somehow geniune charm I think keeps her from being to much of the bastard in world where there is club dedicated to killing people.
Conclusion?
Gonna say keep.
Edited by EmperorGeode on May 1st 2024 at 11:12:32 AM
Goku Black
scarlet and claudia
Writeups.
- Golden Kamuy:
- Saichi "The Immortal" Sugimoto is a measured former soldier of the Russo-Japanese War. Stranded in Hokkaido with no honors for assaulting an officer, Sugimoto proves a quick-thinking, ruthless and clever diplomat who merges hot-blooded violence and sheer determination with cunning strategy as he pursues the hidden Ainu gold and "Noppera-Bou." Tracking the gold ferociously, Sugimoto is able to use small details to deduce pathways and make allies on the spot, even beginning an audacious plan to infiltrate the Abashiri Prison. Using unorthodox strategies like hiding himself in carts, setting up enemies for ambushes, and using tactics to let him defeat his enemies in public such as stabbing himself to set up a circus act, Sugimoto ultimately proves smart enough to track down the gold and to evade his pursuers, ending the story by retiring alongside his child companion Asirpa to live a happy life.
- Wilk is an Ainu man responsible for the assassination of a Russian czar. Using utterly vicious tactics such as killing one of his own comrades to help the others escape, Wilk hides away and decides to raise his daughter Asirpa as a Child Soldier that will someday carry on his cause. After being caught in a tight situation while escorting a convoy of gold, Wilk wins a narrow fight and carves off his own face, faking his death and using his time in the Abashiri Prison to tattoo a map to the gold on the convicts' backs, his work eventually letting others find it in the hopes that they can carry on his revolution.
- Toshizou Hijikata is the former Vice-Commander of the Shinsengumi and a strategic veteran. Aiming to create his Republic of Ezo, a separate state for Japan's undesirables to live in peace away from their oppressors. To this end, Hijikata spends years pretending to be a model prisoner in the Abashiri Prison before killing his guards, escaping, reforming a group of strong fighters, and beginning a hunt for the gold. Willing to work with anyone, Hijikata proves to be both a tactical genius and a keen judge of character when he arranges a break-in to Abashiri Prison while also deducing Kiroranke's dubious loyalties. Determined to the end, Hijikata ultimately aids Sugimoto in finding the gold before giving his life to defend Sugimoto, even passing the younger man his own blade for the final battle.
- Kiroranke is Wilk's former comrade and a master analyst. Joining Sugimoto's group under the guise of aiding him, Kiroranke in reality works to find the Ainu gold in the hopes of starting a war to liberate the Ainu people from the oppression of the Japanese government. Having used improvised explosives to turn the tide of a battle in the war, Kiroranke is a master of traps and ambushes who uses his analytical knowledge to separate the party during the Abashiri break-in so that he can successfully aid his ally in killing Wilk and silencing him, stating it's what the Wilk he knew would've wanted, before abducting Asirpa, laying out an ambush for Sugimoto's party when they pursue him, and dying quietly after praising Asirpa and telling her to live a happy life and leave him to die.
- Boutarou the Pirate, born Fusatarou Oosawa, is a wickedly smart Serial Killer and robber who killed many people for their goods after his family died of disease, swearing never to be ostracized again. Vowing to create a paradise where he will rule as king, have children, and carry on a legacy, Boutarou joins Sugimoto's group after seeing his friend Shiraishi and uses his knowledge and skills to guide Sugimoto's party in their journey to find the Ainu gold so he can purchase land to build his nation. Using his awareness of improbable details like logging techniques, Boutarou manages to be a valued member of the group before rushing in to rescue Sugimoto and Asirpa, then bringing a car to pursue Asirpa's kidnappers with, taking his injuries in stride and dying while earnestly asking Shiraishi to remember him and tell his own children of him.
Lies and Violence!
Claudia and Scarlet.
Sorry these took so long, had a bit of writer's block. Doom's a tad long, but, again, he has the second longest run besides Spider-Man 2099 himself, so I think it's warranted.
- Catwoman: Lonely City:
- Selina Kyle, a decade after the death of Batman, is released from prison and sets out to uncover her lover's final secret. Despite her age, Selina remains just as wily a thief as ever, orchestrating several successful heists with the help of her fellow rogues. Breaking into and escaping heavily guarded facilities ranging from S.T.A.R. Labs to Ace Chemicals, Selina even enacts the theft of a sample of Clayface's mud from Arkham Asylum, using Poison Ivy's powers to stage a cover for their presence and escaping by using a remote-controlled truck to lead away security, before evading the corrupt Mayor Dent's enforcers when they lay a trap. Though her quest is ultimately in vain, Selina is fully willing to sacrifice herself to prevent Batman's secrets from falling into Dent's hands, before provoking Dent's psychosis to escape his murderous wrath and continuing to plan more elaborate plots by training an apprentice in Edie Nygma.
- Edward Nygma, having long since retired his wacky identity as the Riddler, has become a successful grifter and blackmailer with the help of his daughter Edie. Upon running into Selina, Nygma agrees to help in her heist of the Batcave, quickly proving himself an excellent actor able to provide cover for their schemes. Notably, Nygma volunteers his knowledge of abandoned underground rails as a getaway for their heist from Arkham Asylum, and later figures out the location of the Helmet of Fate in order to steal and gift it to Jason Blood in return for his assistance. In the climax, Nygma proves to be Selina's ultimate saving grace, deducing the entrance to the Batcave to save her life before joining her crew for good to plan future schemes.
- Marvel 2099 (Earth-928):
- Doctor Doom himself, displaced into a dystopian future, immediately claws his way back to dominance and transforms himself from a cruel tyrant into the bombastically brilliant, yet no less megalomaniacal, savior of the world. In no short order, Doom outwits and slays Latveria's new dictator; usurps complete control over Cyberspace, before directing an A.I. against an antagonistic corporation when she takes his powers; and steals Alchemax's floating city from under the noses of 2099's other heroes, which he then uses to take over another nation before cornering and destroying an imposter and his own former partner. Not content with this unstoppable rise to power, Doom resolves to save the world from the ruthless grip of mega-corps, orchestrating a brutally swift conquest of the United States in which he viciously restores free speech, equal rights, and environmental health while empowering numerous heroes to enact justice unmitigated. Though quickly ousted by the monstrous John Herod, Doom strikes back from the shadows to wipe out Herod's entire power base, leaving Herod himself in eternal pain before he travels back in time to undo the genocide of Latveria. Even when confronted by a Phalanx invasion upon his return, Doom reveals he had already been planning for them, using them to restore Latveria's broken land before sabotaging the invasion. Despite his unquenchable lust for power and control, Doom grows to truly care for others and proves willing to do anything to safeguard his people, ultimately sacrificing himself to save the world while entrusting his allies with leading the way to peace and prosperity for all.
- Ravage 2099: Sophia Striker, once the first lady to President Graeme Stryker, became known as "Seeress" after corporations ruined the entire planet. The Seeress became The Dragon to Dethstryk—the new Graeme—and, secretly loathing what her husband had become, plotted for decades to undermine him. After a number of failed uprisings she attempted by convincing would-be Mutroud rebels to attempt coups, the Seeress eventually turned to manipulating Ravage, trying to use him as a pawn in her attempts to thwart Dethstryk. In spite of numerous setbacks, the Seeress is the one to screw Dethstryk over once and for all, installing a posthumous "death program" to depower Dethstryk, leaving him to the mercy of Ravage, and using her last moments to try and ensure peace between the humans and the Mutroids.
Caesar
Uh Claudia I'm a no on ATM. She's not only extremely, godawfully sadistic, but also the second season of the show is literally premiering in like 2 weeks and if it follows the book remotely accurately, she'll likely be DQ'd anyway. So I'd say wait-and-see on her.
Edited by Ravok on May 1st 2024 at 2:43:52 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lies and Violence!
Ah, well never mind then. Nay to her.
Not the Eye
Switch ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Claudia
Goku Black
Uh well Claudia.
Dagded Dujardin
Claudia
Caesar
Like she's smart don't get me wrong. But her Serial Killer stint is heavily influenced by For the Evulz and involves keeping trophies of her victims and keeping track of their last words so she can fondly go over them again and again. Her sadism is like the worst in the show, and though she's got a lot of tragic qualities, she's directly compared to Charles Manson. Between that and her arc being set up to follow that of the OG book where she gets outdone and dies a pitiful death, I think she needs to at least be waited on.
Edited by Ravok on May 1st 2024 at 2:50:24 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
So I take it even the differences in characterization between the two Arthur's and the fact that he's not a complete blank slate who's every single action is player dependent like, say for instance the Courier from New Vegas (a character I'm much more understanding on not qualifying), is enough to salvage him. Seems a bit of an odd rule to me given the contextual difference here, but it is what it is I suppose. Thanks for answering
Edited by marston on Apr 30th 2024 at 8:07:00 AM