This is a list of Wild Mass Guesses which are still possibly true. Just for Fun and silly guesses go on the silly page. If a WMG is Jossed, please move it to the jossed page, if it is Confirmed, please move it to the confirmed page.
Please add new entries to the bottom of the page.
A word of note: Please be reminded of Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions be heard.
THE CULPRIT:First, I propose that the term “furniture” refers to the status of a person as the servant of “Kinzo Ushiromiya”. As such, when Kinzo Ushiromiya died, all persons with the title of “furniture” lost their status as such, and without an heir to the name of “Kinzo Ushiromiya”, all those with the prior title of “furniture” also lose their status as “servants”.
Presentation of hints! It has been implied that the furniture status may be discarded! No hints as to the conditions, however, I also propose that in order for the illusion of Kinzo being alive to remain, the "furniture" were still asked to refer to themselves as such in order to hide the fact of Kinzo's death! But technically, they don't have a master anymore, so they don't count as servants!
Going by this assumption, I propose that Kanon is the culprit! This way, Van Dine's 11th is fulfilled, which states that 'it is forbidden for servants to be the culprit'.
I also propose that at the very least, the following people are involved: Kumasawa, Genji, and Nanjo. Reasons for this will be explained later.
FIRST TWILIGHT:Simple enough. The culprit killed the victims in their rooms, then stashed their bodies in the shed, possibly with help. At the time the bodies were in the shed, some of the corpses were disfigured in order to give the possibility that the disfigured corpses are actually faked, thus shifting the blame to the disfigured corpses.
I propose that the corpse identified as “Shannon” existed with that name at one point in time, and was killed (or had died) prior to this point of time. Assuming that “Shannon” was already dead before October 4, 1986, then the “Shannon” that the cousins have interacted with is actually Kanon, or vice versa.
SECOND TWILIGHT:The culprit killed Eva and Hideyoshi in the following manner: he knocked on the door, prompting Eva to open it. Once the culprit was inside, he killed Eva, then Hideyoshi, and then waited inside the closet until someone would arrive and cut open the chain. If it was one of the co-conspirators, he would merely pretend that he was one of the first to discover the corpses. If it was not, he would have remained inside the closet until the rest of the people discovered Hideyoshi’s body in the bath tub, a blind spot which would allow the culprit to sneak in and mingle with the rest of the family.
FOURTH TWILIGHT:Kinzo's corpse was disposed of by any of the people who knew about his death in order to hide the fact that he died before October 4, 1986.
FIFTH TWILIGHT:This is the most crucial part of the argument. Kanon did not die. An object, perhaps a notebook, was lodged in his clothing, which prevented a stab wound from the stake from penetrating into his body. Any blood found on the scene was probably faked using paint, ketchup, or any similar material. After that, his “corpse” was carried to Doctor Nanjo. The onlookers were probably chased out of the room while Kanon was being “treated”, and when Doctor Nanjo got out of the room, the illusion of Kanon’s “death” is completed.
Presentation of hints! Kanon's death was not an accident, and Kanon did not commit suicide! The red truths have not been violated, and Beatrice's refusal to say that it was a homicide is the vital clue to this argument!
SIXTH, SEVENTH, EIGHTH TWILIGHT:By supposing Kanon’s death as faked, the triple murder of Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji is now solvable. Kanon, disguised as Beatrice, ordered Maria to turn around and drown out all noises while Kanon killed the three people. Afterwards, he called Kinzo’s study to draw out Natsuhi and the other cousins.
NINTH TWILIGHT:The murder of Natsuhi is also solvable by supposing Kanon’s fake death. Kanon lured Natsuhi out using the letter of unknown contents, and then killed her.
MOTIVE:Kanon’s motive is love. Recall that Jessica and George survived until the tenth twilight. I propose that Shkanon committed the murders in order to get rid of the remaining obstacles to their relationship with George/Jessica. By the tenth twilight, Shkanon would have picked which identity to adopt, thus fulfilling the relationship of one while destroying the other. However, the remaining survivors died before that could happen, finally killing everyone on the island.
Well, what do you think, everyone...?
- Pretty good overall, and generally I agree, but if I may raise a few points and questions.
- 1) Addendum to the hints presented: Only Gohda and Kumasawa are servants who have not called themselves "furniture", and they have not been directly employed by Kinzo. It's possible that the parents have some degree of control over them, but it seems that their general loyalty is towards Kinzo. Also, no heir has been announced yet, since Kinzo is still "alive". There's still leeway for the theory to be true. 2) It's also possible that the corpses were misidentified, which still counts as "their identities being guaranteed, because the method of identification may not have been conclusive. 3) Hm. I have to re-check that. But if Battler didn't witness it (since he's the detective), then "Jessica being with Kanon" may not have happened. Or that Kanon's just that really good at playing dead. 4) They weren't really interfering, so there was no need to kill them. If they did, then they would've died anyway.
- 1) Kumasawa was definitely directly hired like Genji was, serving Kinzo since Krauss and the siblings were still young children. It is strongly implied that Shannon and Kanon weren't initially hired by Kinzo, but rose through the ranks. 2) If the corpse identities were misidentified, then the Red is made invalid. Everyone has to be who they're said to be in that particular scene, but there's still leeway for Shannon's corpse to not exist. 4) I would wager that Battler and Maria's lives are much more important to the Shkanonatrice murderer than Jessica and George, considering that Jessica and George tend to die fairly early and that Battler and Maria usually live until the very end. When Maria doesn't live that long, it's implied to be a different murderer.
- Addendum: It seems that only the one-winged eagle servants call themselves furniture, so Kumasawa still probably doesn't count as furniture. Just because you're directly hired doesn't mean that you'll count as furniture, so it's possible that being one of the One-Winged Eagle has something to do with the "furniture" status. 4) Well, that doesn't change the fact that Battler, Maria, George and Jessica didn't die until the very end in Episode 1. So I wager that it doesn't matter whether they're left alive or dead until the end. Also, I wager that Battler has detective immunity, so he can't die until the end. He has to observe all of the crimes before dying so that the reader may have equal opportunity in solving the crimes. He has been confirmed as the detective in Episode 5 by Dlanor.
- 1) Addendum to the hints presented: Only Gohda and Kumasawa are servants who have not called themselves "furniture", and they have not been directly employed by Kinzo. It's possible that the parents have some degree of control over them, but it seems that their general loyalty is towards Kinzo. Also, no heir has been announced yet, since Kinzo is still "alive". There's still leeway for the theory to be true. 2) It's also possible that the corpses were misidentified, which still counts as "their identities being guaranteed, because the method of identification may not have been conclusive. 3) Hm. I have to re-check that. But if Battler didn't witness it (since he's the detective), then "Jessica being with Kanon" may not have happened. Or that Kanon's just that really good at playing dead. 4) They weren't really interfering, so there was no need to kill them. If they did, then they would've died anyway.
- I believe you're at least heading in the right direction, but I think part of your argument is not needed. You ended up tagging on a bunch of stuff to take care of Van Dine's 11th, but I'm not sure it even applies. As supporting evidence, I would like to highlight Dlanor's explanation of Knox's rules in the Episode 5 ????? section, where she explains that "Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for secret passages to exist." doesn't deny the possibility of secret passages, but instead denies the possibility of "secret passages that cannot be found by the detective", as well as the original Van Dine's rule #11, which appears to have more to do with characters that are Beneath Suspicion. It should be forbidden for servants who only act as servants with no evidence against them presented (in line with Knox's 8th) to be the culprit. Apart from Gohda, I don't believe this applies to any of the servants on Rokkenjima.
- A lot of these things do make sense, but also remember that if Shannon is Beatrice, then despite being a servant she's the legitimate Ushiromiya successor and a family member, meaning that she's exempt from the "servants can't be the culprit" rule.
Part 1: The ones who plan the Twilights. In this solution an assumption is made that there is a conspiracy involving Eva, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Genji, & Dr. Nanjo. The possible motives for these six are as follows: 1)Eva wants George (or herself) to be family head. 2)Rudolph desperately needs a large amount of money to get himself out of trouble. 3)Hideyoshi supports his wife. 4)Kyrie supports her husband. 5)Genji and Nanjo are shown to be Kinzo's best friends and may believe that Kinzo would've wanted Eva to be head or that Krauss is not honoring their best friend's memory. It is established early on that Eva and Rudolf are by far the closest of the four siblings and in my opinion are two most likely to conspire together while leaving Rosa out of their scheme. It's not hard to see one of the two (probably Dr. Nanjo) revealing to either Eva or Hideyoshi about being forced to cover up Kinzo's death.
Part 2: The Witch's Letter. Included in this theory is that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are multiple personalities in one body. Genji and Kumasawa are aware of this and actively cover it up. Possibly because they are protective of Shannon, who's been working as a maid since she was six and is bullied by Natsuhi. Notice that only scenes involving either Genji and/or Kumasawa do we also see Shannon and Kanon at the same time. The Beatrice persona is the one responsible for all of the murders and is the one who gives Maria the Witch's Letter. Beatrice also writes and seals all Witch's Letters for this game. I could go into further detail about the how and why of Shkanonatrice but that would be for another WMG. After Maria reads the letter at dinner but before the meeting later that night between the parents is when the plan is hatched. If the murder of Krauss is believed by all to be the fault of the Witch Beatrice, then Eva can be head of the family without suspicion. This is why everyone needs to believe that witch is real.
Part 3: The First Twilight. The first twilight victims were Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, and a body faked to be Shannon's. Both Rudolf's and Kyrie's deaths are faked. Krauss is the primary target. Rosa is killed because she's seen as threat to the plan. Gohda is killed because he is seen as an agent of Krauss. A reason why Natsuhi is not in the first twilight is because of the unstable Beatrice. Shannon was patrolling the halls of the mansion when she saw golden butterflies which probably signified that Beatrice was surfacing. But why? Because she sees Kruass, Rosa, and Gohda being murdered! This Beatrice joins the group of conspirators and wants Kanon and Shannon dead so she can be 'real'. The fake Shannon body is prepared to appease Beatrice. Note that the fake Shannon body was probably not all that convincing, which is why Hideyoshi did not want anyone else to see it when the first twilight is discovered the next day, though Kanon does see it and is convinced she's dead. This symbolic killing of the Shannon personality also gives a reason why Shannon never resurfaces.
Part 4: The Rest of the Twilights. All dead bodies with stakes in them are staged except for one. Dr. Nanjo is around to say that the staged deaths are genuine. Kinzo's body was cremated by one of the conspirators that faked their death. The only 'stake murder' that was not staged was Kanon's. As Kanon is pursuing whoever burned Kinzo's body, Beatrice surfaces and tries to kill Kanon. Dr. Nanjo tries desperately to save Kanon because this wasn't a part of the plan. It is also possible that Dr. Nanjo succeeds and fakes Kanon's death. After that is when everyone holes up in Kinzo's study. Either Dr. Nanjo, Genji, or Maria provide the Witch's Letter III which causes Natsuhi to kick them out of the study. Note that only Kumasawa actually protests leaving while Genji and Dr. Nanjo know this part of the plan and Maria is, well, compromised.
The final set of murders, with Maria singing facing the wall are also staged. It's not hard to imagine either Eva, Kyrie, or Beatrice (if Kanon's body survived) dressing up as The Golden Witch to convince Maria to play along. Kumasawa is forced to become part of the conspiracy or die. Nobody actually inspects the three dead bodies all that closely. The final letter was a challenge to draw Natsuhi away from the children. Natsuhi either kills herself or is murdered. At the end Battler and the others see the costumed Beatrice, who Maria hugs. And that's where the Sound Novel ends.
- Good work, except for two minor points. 1) The Beatrice personality would have come first, and 2) Dine's 13th: No secret societies or conspiracies. The murderer, too, needs a sporting chance to outwit the detective.
- Original poster here. Originally I conceded that the Beatrice personality came first, I no longer believe that to be the case. I will argue Dine's 13th. The only way Dine's rule 13 as well as Dine's 12th: There can only be one murderer. The villain could have an accomplice or "co-plotter," but only one is going to get the ax in the matter. could apply is if there's only one 'killer'. Because of the possiblity of Kanon's stabbing being fatal I put forth that Beatrice killed Krauss, Rosa, and Gohda without joining the conspiracy. The Beatrice personality is triggered by stress, which I believe is true of real DID. The stress and conflicting emotions cause Beatrice to surface on the first night; she shows up at the parents' meeting and demands that Shannon be eliminated to assert her existence. This is preferable for the conspiracy because then their hands are technically clean. They appease Beatrice by arranging Shannon's 'corpse'. The conspirators transported the real corpses and the fake ones into the tool shed. Beatrice is the only 'killer' since after the first twilight only Kanon's murder is actually real. The alter manifests because of the stress Kanon feels that causes him to make his epic speech. In summation, the alter only plays along because it only cares about being 'real' and killing Shannon and Kanon. It enjoys people saying that Beatrice 'exists'. At the end Natsuhi kills herself or is killed by Beatrice, masquerading as The Golden Witch from the portrait.
- Respondent here. Beatrice's motives don't work here, because Beatrice did not kill because of money or revenge, and these are pretty Vengeance-y motives. But then, I would argue that Beatrice herself is actually 100% innocent of all crimes, and is just martyring herself.
- Original poster here. I'm glad that you don't seem to disagree about there being a conspiracy as long as the killer is separate from that conspiracy. The 'being a martyr' motive I believe applies more to Meta-Beatrice than this Beatrice. I don't want to offend, but would you please elaborate why you think that motive fits more? I'm also curious where that red text came from. I'll admit that Beatrice's motive is the biggest guess in this theory. The motive I described is not exactly 'revenge' as it is wanting be in sole control of the body. To take revenge Beatrice needs to feel wronged or want to punish Shannon or Kanon. If she wants to kill them anyway it's not exactly revenge. Assuming that the Beatrice in that red text refers to the symbolic "true culprit" there isn't really anyone else in the first sound novel who wouldn't want to kill for money and/or revenge. A possible reason for wanting to be in sole control is that Beatrice wants to be with Battler the same way Shannon and Kanon want to be with George and Jessica respectively. That is, her primary motivation for killing is love. Another thing that I believe supports this motive is that Shannon and Kanon are both acknowledged by everyone while Beatrice is hardly acknowledged at all. Besides Shannon and Kanon, only Genji, Kumasawa - who in this theory are the only ones who know of the DID - and Maria actually believe Beatrice exists. Anyone would be angry if the person they have a crush on doesn't even believe they exist.
- Dine's 12th is not likely to apply — R07 passed up the best opportunity to assert it in Red in Ep8, only moments after citing a different one in Red. Very few of Dine's rules have been cited, but this is the one and only one not to be validated in Red Truth (full list at the end of this page.) Any rules that weren't cited at all could hardly be applicable; R07's support for Van Dine wasn't very strong, even his Anthropomorphic Personification was a Knight in Sour Armor toward the SSVD and never made any effort to defend the rules from the critique of other characters.
- I'd also like to add that Dine's 13th pertained to organized crime, and it was revealed that Rudolf's livelihood was systematic scamming. This doesn't go to say that Rudolf was any kind of murderous criminal. Ep7 showed that he was opposed by nature to killing but not completely; when cornered with inescapable necessity, he could commit to it (whether successfully or not.) note
- From Episode 4, regarding Eva and Hideyoshi in Episode 1: "Both were killed by another person! It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room! No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!" Eva and Hideyoshi were confirmed in red to have been killed, so their deaths were not faked. From Episode 4, referring to the parlour murders in Episode 1: "Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And of course, the three were killed by other people!" Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa are confirmed in red to have been killed, so their deaths were not faked.
- Original poster here: If Eva, Hideyoshi, Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa did not fake their deaths then they were killed by Beatrice. Genji could have advised Beatrice as Ronove as to which people were killed, how they were killed, and during which twilight. The deaths were originally supposed to be faked but then Beatrice decided to kill them for reals.
Anyway, I say she's Jessica mostly because of Gaap's profile saying that She and Beatrice are best friends, which is the same relationship between Jessica and Shannon. More evidence is Jessica actually LIVING there, thereby knowing the mansion by heart, which is a given for Gaap, the transporter. If we run on this assumption, Jessica killing George in the 4th episode becomes perfectly clear- she had to be one of the culprits, which is why her phone call to Battler seemed so sketchy. Why she died? I still dunno. But anyway, that's a different subject. Of course, if Beatrice is actually Jessica instead, I would want to say that Shannon is Gaap, but it doesn't seem logical, and somehow I feel like the love demons represent Shannon and Kanon anyway.
- I doubt it, since Jessica being Gaap means that Jessica has to be in the know about Shkanon and Beatrice's identity and know that she's solved the Epitaph and is the true head. None of that fits Jessica's profile.
- Why would that be implausible? All Jessica/Kanon interactions are away from Battler's eyes. It's not concrete that Jessica doesn't know what goes on.
- That's...quite incorrect. Before the murders begin, Battler often has plenty of opportunity to see how Jessica and Kanon feel about each other. That aside, it's against the rules of the gameboard for pieces like Jessica and Kanon to act in ways they wouldn't or couldn't. If they don't have feelings for each other, they cannot behave as if they do even in fantasy scenes. To say nothing of Ryukishi has said otherwise on his blog, calling the falsification of the romances a "cruel trap" he wouldn't indulge in. Unless you can account for Jessica loving Kanon while being 100% aware of his true nature, this theory doesn't work. Besides, we have no real evidence to think Gaap has a human vessel like other meta-characters do. EP7 implied that she represents not a person, but a phenomenon that was made into an imaginary friend.
- You could account for Jessica loving Kanon while being 100% aware of his true nature if she was already in love with Shannon, but even more smitten with her pretty-boy role. Assume that she knew that was Shannon the first time she looked at Kanon, and she saw someone she was already attracted to that she could now show off to her friends, hold hands with in public, looks dashing in a Badass Longcoat, and his Sugar-and-Ice Personality charm sparks some Red Oni, Blue Oni chemistry.
- Gaap is the Anthropomorphic Personification of people losing small objects such as car keys, portable video game cartridges and the remote. That is a better theory by the logic that she represents a phenomenon rather than a human.
- When R07 made that claim in his interview with KEIYA, I found it unconvincing, because it followed closely after stating that Virgilia's creation made a connection with Kumasawa, as if that were a natural consequence. Flauros was introduced in "Our Confession" as a disembodied phenomenon, but she was also discarded half-sketched before she could be integrated into board, without any sense of loss from Beatrice. Dlanor and Wright are conceptual personifications, but they aren't native to the board, and were brought into the game by the Human side. So why would Gaap be the only demonic entity not to have a vessel to link?
- This would explain a lot. Why she was present when Yasu started working on the island, why she would still defer to her in 1986 — if Yasu/Beatrice proved her entitlement to succession to Jessica, that would be a relief for Jessica, because she didn't want it, but she would still show some deference to it. The evidence for Gaap having a vessel is that Maria interacted with her enough to give her her name. Since Jessica lived on the island with Shannon, let's assume she isn't too simple to figure out that Kanon is Shannon eventually, if not from the very introduction, and was attracted to the Shannon persona first, and the Kanon persona even more. She didn't get serious about her love for Skanon until George showed that he really was, and could take Skanon away from her because of that.
- Why would that be implausible? All Jessica/Kanon interactions are away from Battler's eyes. It's not concrete that Jessica doesn't know what goes on.
- Guns.
And the name 'Beatrice', of course, is from the Divine Comedy: the universal symbol of unattainable love.
- In the same way we could interpret all Beatrice's deaths as death of love in various persons. (First Kinzo, then Rosa and Battler. Well at least these two clearly went evil-mode after her death, and they both were looking for love in a way. We don't know about Battler yet though. I think it may be over-interpreting things little though. What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic?? At least we know for sure that series main focus is love, so it's possible for it to have a symbolism like that. (Love is in the air~)
- Didn't Beatrice die in Rosa's backstory too? Should she be included? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
- She should be included, I just forgot about her.^^"
- Didn't Beatrice die in Rosa's backstory too? Should she be included? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
Which character fills which role is left as an exercise.
- Eva's definitely one of the nobles. And if Beatrice is to be trusted, so is Battler.
- Battler's the King. George and Shannon are the two Rooks, Jessica and Kanon are the two bishops. The parents are all pawns. The incident in Episode 3 can be explained as Eva getting promoted to Queen. To confuse things further, Maria and Genji are both on the opposite team; The "Sixteenth piece" for Battler's side is Ange, the Queen.
- Weren't the only pieces to be revealed so far the White King (Battler, stated by Beatrice at the end of Ep. 4) and Black King (Maria, from the crown on her head)?
- You forgot about Beato being a Black Queen.
- Which piece each character corresponds to can vary between each game, for example Natsuhi was the Black King in episode 5 and that episode didn't have a White King. Also, Maria's crown is probably a red herring.
- Gaap is a Knight, and Cornelia and Gertrude are both Rooks.
- This goes a long way to explaining Rosa's witch encounter in the rose garden. 'Beatrice' gives the two of them envelopes - Rosa's (containing an invitation the party) 'to open at the family conference' and Maria's (containing the chapel key) 'to open at the right time'. Too bad Rosa just plain forgot about hers until past Maria's bedtime. It also explains why Beatrice affected a jacket-and-tie look for that episode: lavish Western-style dresses are hard to come by at short notice in the Izu Archipelago.
- Turn the chessboard around. Think of the the poor killer who lugged six heavy corpses across the island in darkness and the pouring rain, soaked to the skin, shivering and exhausted, and then turned on the lights and said... "The fuck?"
Rejecting fantasy is like ripping off a band-aid quickly. Rejecting fantasy means pre-breaking your heart.
- This, of course, is how she intends to break Battler. Also, Reality Bites.
- You're right!! You're freaking spot-on! This is exactly the way the conflict in Chiru is playing out (except Lambda and Bern are actually conspiring against the players, not each other).
- Actually, in EP6, Lambdadelta seems to be True Neutral in this, both conspiring with Bernkastel and occasionally helping Battler and Beatrice. Bernkastel is the villain, who just wants to destroy the game utterly and move on. You are right about the marriage, though...
- I think that Lambda is more of a Chaotic Neutral. She WILL do anything to play with Bern (read: to starve off boredom). Anything at all.
- I don't understand. Can you explain, please?
- It's a Shout-Out to The Chronicles Of Narnia. (See also "Sakutaro is coming back", below.)
- Listen to Sakutaro's theme. Listen to Happiness of Marionette (EVA's theme). Compare, consider, recoil in horror.
- Kthunk! AIEEE!(Oh, bother. I meant to stake Rudolf in the thigh and hit him in the bollocks instead. Was there anything in the epitaph about "gouge the testicle and kill"?)
Very few of the stakings could kill a person, anyway. They're all done postmortem. Who could the staker be? The adults all die and stakings continue. The servants all die and stakings continue. Jessica dies, George dies, Maria dies... but nothing can stop the stakings! It's just barely conceivable that Nanjo could have staked everybody single-handedly - even though that requires staking himself in Turn of the Golden Witch. It absolutely staggers credulity that Battler could be doing it. If any bit of the story demands for a supernatural explanation, it's the horrifying consistency of the stakings.
- If there's a stranger on the island, this could easily be their role. Not killing anybody, not even speaking to anybody - just running about striking stakes into dead guys, painting magic glyphs and writing letters, like some demented stagehand to the grisly Rokkenjima theatre.
- Doesn't have to be a stranger. Could be Maria. If she thought Beatrice wanted her to, she'd do it, and she has the requisite knowledge.
- Alternately, it could be a scam by Krauss. Allow me to explain:
- In EP5, we find out that Krauss' financial straits are just as desperate as the other siblings, if not worse—in addition to being ruined, he's in danger of of destroying the family fortune and possibly jail time.
- Unlike the others, he has proof that Kinzo's gold really does exist.
- After Kinzo's death, he almost certainly got Kinzo's signet ring, for use sealing those letters.
- He's tried and failed to solve the riddle himself, but if he can trick his siblings into helping...?
- Pride (and simple self-preservation) keep Krauss from coming clean to his family about the predicament he's in, so he's following Kinzo's example - betting everything on an unlikely outcome and hoping for a miracle. Losing the family headship would be a terrible blow, but nowhere nearly as bad as what's going to happen if he doesn't try.
- In EP3 and 5, this scheme actually worked. In the others...not so much.
- At no point does the author of the letter claim to be a witch. The letter writer describes her role as an 'alchemy counselor' and signs as 'Beatrice the Golden', whereas the murder letter is signed 'The Golden Witch, Beatrice'. Unlike the villain(s), Kumasawa has no reason to pretend to being a witch - everyone knows those don't exist!
- In the first episode, the Golden Land is a generically nonspecific happy place the victims go to when they die.
- In the second episode, suddenly the rule is that thirteen people will die, and the five survivors with pass bodily into the golden land without dying: the golden land is now a land of infinite regality. Conveniently enough, this is told to Shannon, who is in love with her employer. Bribing someone with their heart's desire has to be a pretty good enticement for murder.
- In the third episode, Beatrice declares - completely out of the blue - that the person who solves the epitaph will become house head. Funny she never thought to mention that before. But a life's wish to Eva. The kind of wish worth going to any length for. Somebody knows the psychological weaknesses of the House of Ushiromiya, and they're gonna kill all of them without having to lift a finger.
- Well, that and the fact everyone who lives to Beatrice's revival is described as being sent to Hell afterwards.
- There are a lot of things that support this. Gaap's outfit, between the large breasts and the slit (like the slit in Shannon's skirt), the fact that she takes George's test and it takes place in the arbor of all places, which is where he would have proposed to her...the fact that a lot of the dialogue between the two at the beginning of the test would seem to imply Shannon lied about being in love with him, and George is determined to show her the determination of his love...I think there's still more to support it as well, but I'm drawing a blank.
You insist? The story is about a girl called Ms. Beatrice - Oh! Yes, the name should sound familiar to you, though this Ms. Beatrice is not a witch... or at least, not yet, and not in the important ways. Beatrice wasn't even her real name. It was a name she chose for herself, because all the famous alchemists had pretend names for themselves, and an alchemist - a person who makes miracles real - was exactly what she longed to be. She was a very foolish and young girl. But one day she met a Mr. Goldsmith. Oh! He was young, then, and beautiful, and he thought the world belonged to him. Every girl only had to look at him to fall in love - you'll understand, too, when you're a little older. And Ms. Beatrice and Mr. Goldsmith both wanted to see a miracle, and they didn't believe that anything was impossible, and they were in love. And they made it happen. They made a true miracle. They studied secrets others scoffed at, and they learned things that had never before been learned, and they transmuted ten tons of lead into pure gold before their eyes.
Mr. Goldsmith was delighted! Now he could redeem the honour of his family, which other had laughed at, and he could live as he pleased and do as he liked. And Ms. Beatrice was delighted because she had exceeded all the famous alchemists of the past. So they made a contract. A foolish contract: that Mr. Goldsmith would have all the gold to redeem his family, and when he died everything that he made with the gold would pass to Ms. Beatrice. And they laughed as they signed it, because they were young and beautiful and thought the world was endless.
But even though they loved one another, Mr. Goldsmith married another woman. He said it was necessary somehow for his family. And Ms. Beatrice had to pretend not to be a lover or an alchemist but just an ordinary person. But they still laughed about their joke in secret. Then one day Ms. Beatrice bore a child... a child who Mr. Goldsmith said would shame the family name, and had to live in a secret house nobody knew of, like a bird a in a cage. And they laughed a bit less after that. And one day — oh, sorry, my dear, it's nothing, just a speck in my eye - but one day, the poor child escaped from her cage and dived from a cliff and broke her body on the rocks. Nobody knows why she did... you can't ever know another person. Not really. After that they stopped talking very much to one another. And Ms. Beatrice actually came to secretly resent Mr. Goldsmith a little, because she was old now, and she would never be able to enjoy the gold the way she could if she were young. And Mr. Goldsmith came to secretly fear Ms. Beatrice a little, because he thought she was doing nothing but wait for him to die. It was a funny situation, but neither of them were laughing any more.
Oh...
That's it. That's the end of the story.
I told you it was a sad story.
I don't think you should be telling this story to anybody else. It's just a silly, sad story, right?
Look, Maria, there's your cousins coming back from the beach. Go and play with them for a while. I've been sitting for too long and -ohhhhhhhhhh- my knees aren't what they used to be. I'll play with you again the next time you visit, ok?
- Proven false. Please read EP 7 for more details.
- That explains the so-called witches, sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic.
- Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
- It has not yet been stated whether the story conforms to Knox's Decalogue. I propose that it doesn't... And also that Beatrice is Maria from the future! Small Bombs for Everyone! Yaaayyyy!!!
- Time travel, cloning, alternate dimensions, androids, and such are not difficult to understand in a way that affects the plot. Furthermore, the rule only affects unknown drugs or hard-to-understand devices that require a complicated explanation at the end of the story. If the rules of the devices are spelled out as the story goes or all required explanations are simple, the rule does not prevent science fiction elements.
- From EP 5: "I will REPEAT. By the name of god, I will not let such a drug or machine EXIST. I will not allow them to exist for all ETERNITY." If Umineko is a tale that can be solved by using all the clues of the games, then such devices would render would render the whole tale mostly pointless. After all, if you have managed to solve a mystery without anybody telling you the answer, wouldn't you be pissed if the REAL answer was an Ass Pull? That said, the different "kakera" in the Meta-World may count as alternate dimensions, but only in a meta-sense; they can't help in solving the riddle.
- Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
- While I admit I'm certainly no fan of Umineko, stopped watching the anime around episode 25 or so, and thus haven't been through everything as thoroughly as the majority of those debating here have, I must still make the following points the above discussion seems to have forgotten:
- On the subject of Knox's Rules, we must remember that they are merely suggestions meant to advance the quality of detective literature, not universal laws that have mathematical proofs to back them up. They should be considered more like the general consensus around Mary Sues or Self Insert fanfics. Most of such things are rubbish, but some are quite good. Heck, Dante's Divine Comedy is a self insert fanfic of the Bible and is a respected classic all the same. So while Knox's Rules probably shouldn't (and in Umineko, probably won't) be broken, they still can be without the universe imploding.
- The 4th of Knox's Rules is probably one that has not withstood the test of time very well and thus its literal meaning seems to say things it doesn't. I personally would rewrite it if I could, but whatever. The general point that rule is trying to make is that the author shouldn't brag about how much he knows about chemistry or Rube Goldberg contraptions. Some random poison that comes from left field is a no-no, some random obscure scientific rule or process that the author either made up or somehow knows because he's a nerd is also a no-no. The latter is the point of debate here, and to bring it into context let's just say we have a murder mystery where the victim is found burning away in his favorite chair or something. Following Knox's 4th, random chemical reactions are a no-no, spontaneous human combustion is a no-no, and so on. If the victim burnt to death, there has to be a match or flame or flamethrower that set him on fire. Note the flamethrower is fine. Yes, a flamethrower can be used as a murder weapon, you just have to justify its existence to begin with. Higher forms of technology is fine, they just have to fit the setting and be shown to the reader so that they count as evidence.
- Further more, the perception of each person is different. Let's say, one student understands Newton's laws and think that they're pieces of cake, but there are others who don't think so. The author of Haruhi Suzumiya might think that all those Genius Bonuses aren't Genius Bonuses at all, but just good old simple, easy-to-understand Quantum Physics. The same happens to some cases of Detective Conan when knowing Japanese is a must for anyone who wants to understand what the heck is going on. As a result, Knox's 4th rule relies on each person's perception.
- "Magic" and "science" are difficult to distinguish after magic has been explained. One might think of magnetism as magic if you aren't introduced to the principles behind it early enough. Say a wizard explained everything about how to make fireball, right up to what physical law allows for it; you'd probably still think of it as magic, simply because it's too out there for your brain to place into the "science" file folder. In fiction, this becomes a problem. As a result, "fantasy" and "science fiction" are separate by this maxim: "Fantasy is where the impossible is possible and science fiction is where the improbable is probable." Put that in red if you want, I'm to lazy to. The vast majority of things in Umineko are quite impossible. It's fantasy, straight up, but that's not always a bad thing. Science fiction isn't "intelligent" fantasy and fantasy isn't "ignorant" or "unexplained" science fiction. They're two separate genres, not evolutionary forms of the same thing. Just because the Witches here are well versed in quantum mechanics doesn't mean that their magic doesn't violate the laws of nature. Lots of scientific laws are true in fantasy works, but it's the ones that are clearly violated that make it a fantasy proper. Science fiction (well, good science fiction) rarely violates real world laws, otherwise they may as well be casting a spell to teleport their spaceship.
- Magic itself violates Knox's 2nd. Straight up. However, giving all of what appeared to be supernatural events explanations (such as the servants being robots) would legitimately violate Rule 4. Where did this miraculous technology come from? How did that crazy old man I forget the name of acquire that technology and keep it from both the world and the reader? Why are they calling it magic to begin with instead of just saying it's high tech? It's all too elaborate a conspiracy. Heck, you probably shouldn't even trust your eyes all the time. Remember, everything after the first round of murders is constructed. Logically, it isn't a game meant to give a fair chance to both sides, just some stupid false reality that is presented to Battler as somehow being legitimate and one that follows any kind of ruleset. Unless one of the Witches says in red "I'm not playing this game with loaded dice," we have to logically assume that they are and thus trying to get Battler to submit to them (or whatever they want, idk, I couldn't follow anyone's motives at all). The only murder mystery that we can say is actually worth solving at all is the first one, not the endless game Battler and Beatrice play. As a result, we should be looking for clues to that one, truths that are found in a sea of lies. Everything else is freshly prepared Red Herring.
- The original version of Knox's 2nd does indeed forbid the use of any magic. However, the Umineko version of Knox's 2nd only prevents it from being used as a detective technique.
- When does she say this, again?
- While rape is not impossible, Rosa stated that she got pregnant with her fiancee so I find it unlikely.
- But according to this theory, Rosa has every reason to lie. Even to Maria. After all, you wouldn't want to let a little nine year old girl know that she was the result of a rape.
- It's not like anything Rosa says can be taken seriously. This is a theory I have personally always believed, as it would explain quite a bit about why she's so broken and her bipolar attitude towards her daughter. In most of the later arcs, Rosa seems to imply that Maria wasn't wanted at all.. Rosa being raped would make perfect sense...why else would she have a daughter if she spends a good bit of EP4 going on about how she never wanted a daughter?
- I haven't played the games or gotten that far in anything else, but...maybe she was after a son?
- Could be Rosa's fiancee high-tailed it when he found out they were pregnant, leaving Maria to shoulder the blame for depriving her mother of the love and lasting happiness that only marriage can supply.
The disorganised killer from the first and fourth chapters: kills by smashing their victim's faces. Takes their victims seemingly at random from the parents and servants.
The theatrical killer from the second chapter: kills in a flashy grand guignol way. Kills every parent but Rosa.
The organised killer from the third chapter: kills in a neat and nearly bloodless way. Arranges the corpses in an elaborate 'locked room' pattern which is perhaps more clever than frightening. Kills servants + Kinzo's already-dead corpse.
Every episode, the Unknown Mastermind takes one of the cast aside and tell them: Kill according to the epitaph and all the gold in the Golden Land is yours. Do otherwise and die yourself.
The murderer for the first chapter was meant to be Rudolf. But being a principled fellow, he tells the mastermind to go to hell. Later, aware that he has signed his death warrant, he confesses to his wife and son: "I will probably die tonight." Without a catspaw, the Mastermind rampages through the mansion, killing at random.
The murderer for the second chapter is...Rosa? Maybe? Certainly she has the means and motive. On the other hand, there is such thing as too obvious.
The murderer for the third chapter is Kyrie, obviously. The first twilight practically screams it from the rooftops: 'Hello, I was committed by someone who is perhaps a little too proud of her intellect, but hates getting blood on her hands!'
The designated murderer for the fourth chapter is among the dead: like Rudolf, they made their principled stand and died for it, because the disorganised killer was unleashed again.
- But Kyrie dies too in the third arc, at the hands of Evatrice. Does the mastermind switch to use Eva as a pawn? Why?
- After the first twilight, the snafu principle takes over. You've got survivors killing one another out of paranoia, killers killing more people to cover their tracks, half a dozen secret schemes coming unglued and trainwrecking into each other at 100 miles an hour...The simple explanation for Kyrie's death is something like: "Kyrie and Rudolf took Hideyoshi to the mansion to blackmail him over Rosa's murder, but they had a falling-out with guns."
- Rudolf a principled fellow? I counter-propose Krauss had been the primary culprit but failed (multiple independent culprits are permitted; the one time Willard cites Dine's 12th, he did so without the Red, only a handful of lines after citing a different Rule in Red.) Krauss solved the epitaph so recently that he didn't have opportunity to cover up the embezzlement he was too proud to permit exposure of, so wasn't ready to lay his father to rest and completely claim succession. Massive spoilers follow:
Krauss sent Natsuhi to her room to keep her from witnessing what he planned to do, and he managed to kill Rosa before he was disarmed. Krauss was wounded and survived long enough to smear his handprints on the Natsuhi's door while clawing for safety, his accomplice Gohda was killed instantly in the dining room. The bodies were taken to the shed, where Rudolf and Eva argued, with their respective spouses supporting them. Eva shot and killed Kyrie, shot Rudolf and only grazed him (as happened to Eva in Ep7.) When he came to, Eva and Hideyoshi had left and Rudolf saw Beatrice was 'killing' Shannon. Taking her example, he smeared his face with gore and faked his own death until the shed could be re-opened. When the bodies were discovered, Nanjo made an incomplete inspection of Rudolf because he was too occupied with concealing Shannon's condition, and simply assumed from the other corpses that he was also dead. After the shed was relocked, Beatrice and Genji took Rudolf to the study and revealed everything. Rudolf collected a rifle from Kinzo's collection and all remaining ammo, including those from the rifles he left behind. You can figure out how he committed the remaining twilights. Since the game was suspended before midnight, we can't know if Rudolf appeared to Battler to get him out before the bomb went off, we can't know if he succeeded or failed, or if Beatrice had set the bomb without his knowledge.
- The problem with a 'designated murderer' is that for Beatrice to pick a winner before they solve the epitaph is counter to her entire roulette gamble. If no one solves it, then she would do as she did in Ep4; throw out the apple of discord in the shape of Kinzo's corpse and watch the free-for-all. That Krauss even survived that was just dumb luck, because you know he would've been the first one targeted by everyone. After Gohda and Kumasawa fled, Kyrie managed to take Krauss hostage, and perhaps Nanjo and Shannon/Kanon but they may have followed willingly. When they called the cousins to warn them to stay together for their own safety, and get rid of Gohda and Kumasawa for their own safety, Kyrie was the one with the gun. Kyrie was forced to kill Krauss, either because he attempted escape or resistance, and then deemed Nanjo too much a liability to leave alive. This demonstrated Kyrie's eligibility as the successor convincingly enough for Beatrice to reveal herself, and from there Beatrice coached her on how to proceed. When Shannon met with George, she warned him that Kyrie was trying to kill him, and helped fake his death — he kept up the act when Battler came to look because he assumed he would be an accomplice for Kyrie. Kyrie met with Jessica, Jessica fought back and wounded Kyrie, but Kyrie managed to get the upper hand. Beatrice coached Jessica on what to say to Battler over the phone; when she added that her head would be split the next time he saw her, it was because Kyrie had a rifle pointed at her. The gunshot heard when Kyrie spoke to Battler was actually her gun killing Jessica. Kyrie wasn't killed until after Beatrice failed to get Battler's recognition of 'his sin', when Yasu completely resigned the game, killed everyone remaining and then herself.
The Siestas are based on Maria's impression of her toy rabbits. In the same way, it's easy to see how in a child's eyes Genji could become an infinitely stylish demon, or Kumasawa become a witch, or the physically imposing Gohda become a goat-man (or maybe she was just free-associating off the name?) So, reverse the looking-glass logic that turns men into demons and we get... what?
- ...What about Renon or Manon? They've been name-dropped but not seen yet; that doesn't mean Maria's never met them...
Uuuuu! Uuu! Stop shaking Maria! Uu! Stop! Stop! ...Yes, Maria solved it two years ago. Maria thought it was much more fun that all the puzzles in her puzzle book. Uuuu. Don't shout at Maria. No, Maria never told any of her aunties or uncles about what she did.
Beatrice specifically asked Maria not to.
Uuuu! Maria didn't know people could turn that colour!
Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling.
While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere.
Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was.
Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it.
- Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Furthermore, there is no indication that the family owns any "Tiny Food Bombs", much less keeps them where they could be accidentally mixed into anything. Gohda accidentally grabbed poison instead of tiny bombs. Afterward, he and Rosa lifted one of the keys and snuck into the chapel to make it look like Beatrice did it, hoping like hell that nobody would look at the corpses too closely.
- OBJECTION! Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!! someone on the island hid actual corpses of different people that looked like those who were murdered inside the chapel before everyone arrived on the island. then after killing those 6 people, hid their bodies away.
Plus he's way too normal for the Ushiromiya family.
- If we are to trust Battler's POV, he has the best alibi for most of the crimes (he either is with battler or dead most of the time).
- While he does have an excellent alibi, this could be explained by him being the mastermind and teaming up with Shannon, whose status is uncertain and who can therefore be the killer. There is actually a lot of strength and things to support this theory. Especially since at this point we're almost certain that there are multiple culprits and a different one in every game. Plus George seriously comes across as Yandere for Shannon sometimes.
- By extension, the individual who writes in Maria's diary and writes the bottle letters must also be innocent.
- Did it really matter if they knew the island would be cut off? They could have just been intending to cut the phone lines, so no one could call the police, and then kill everyone that night. The storm just worked in their favor.
The Black Witch can't forgive the person she was yesterday - forgiveness, in general, is not her thing.
The Black Witch is pretty interesting. Firstly, she's much cooler as a villain than the Golden Witch or the Candy-Goth Witch. Secondly, she's actually killable by ordinary anti-fantasy humans. Though for the Ushiromiyas it might take a miracle.
(Or maybe MARIA, Witch Of Origins, comes zooming back and fights and defeats her with laser beams made of pure love, and all the people reading for the mystery/family drama elements curl up on the floor and die. Either way.)
The Black Witch was born - the Ushiromiyas started coming unglued - on the day Kinzo married his late wife for prestige, rather than Beatrice for love. The magical gold is valueless without love.
The only way to 'win' is to reverse the split between ideals and forms, love and duty, Beatrice and Kinzo, the meta-universe and Rokkenjima. Merging Battler and Meta-Battler is the only way Meta-Battler can return to his family as he promised - removing the contradictions between the two worlds is the only way to heal the wound of Beato's soul. The only way to answer her plea 'Who am I?' And the only way to unmask the killer once and for all.
- The scenes with Kinzo are all genuine, he is some kind of undead being and thus is not counted as a living human
- Unless you are proposing that there is some kind of hypertech revivification technology present (which would raise its own set of problems), a claim that Kinzo is undead in an Anti-Fantasy-Which-May-Or-May-Not-Contain-A-Witch is a self-contradicting position!
- (Respondent here.): That blue truth is meant to counter the claim that Beato lost when she declared Kinzo's alive-or-death status. In other words, it is meant to offer an explanation for all of the Kinzo scenes which doesn't require unreliable narrators. Thus, it is an Anti-Mystery theory.
- Ah, I see. Allow me to respond then: This story cannot require information not presented to explain. There is no evidence that Kinzo can be resurrected. Therefore, any explaination of this story requiring Kinzo to be reanimated fails.
- In that case Kinzo is a ghost.
- Plausible, given the old name of the island, (and that will eventually be explained the way "Onigafuchi" did) but it's tenuous at best.
- Unless you are proposing that there is some kind of hypertech revivification technology present (which would raise its own set of problems), a claim that Kinzo is undead in an Anti-Fantasy-Which-May-Or-May-Not-Contain-A-Witch is a self-contradicting position!
- Hypnotism. A suspicious number of witnesses to supernatural events who are 'too confused' to go into details. A suspicious number of previously rational people who become True Believers as soon as they get out of Battler's sight. A trick that can modify a person's perceptions or memories.
- Time/space nexus. Like the island from a popular television program, Rokkenjima sits at the crossing point for multiple parallel universes. Hence why characters can be alive, dead and absent simultaneously, why Kanon gets more screen time dead than alive, how the killer can walk out of a locked room and murders can happen when every enamed character has an alibi. The murder from arc X might have been perpetrated by the murderer from arc X+ 1. The mutually-contradictory message bottles are remnants of worlds that were 'collapsed' when the typhoon passed. Kinzo knew about the island's 'magical' properties, of course: he's depending on them for his one-in-a-quadrillion miracle to occur.
- Demon possessionnote . Rokkenjima's alluded-to previous reputation as Akujishima, island of soul-eating spectres. 'Beatrice's' confusion as to her identity. The constantly-shifting roles of killer and victim. Ange deciding to avenge the tragic murders on Rokkenjima by...murdering seven people with stakes. Don't breathe the air at Rokkenjima: Beatrice might be catching.
- Prophecy:Witches are created by the forces of Destiny to carry out the Epitaph. Stating anything that has not been determined in red text retcons it to something that is true for some interpretation of all red text used so far, and is itself a prophecy. Red text that would falsify all possible interpretations of the Epitaph or another red text cannot be spoken. Even if this isn't the case, it gives me a great idea for an RPG...
- I read somewhere that Kyrie says that if Asumu hadn't died on her own, then Kyrie would have killed her, just so she could have Rudolf.
- That's in EP6. Assuming we can trust anything in a scene that has Jessica as a demon-possessed killer, Kyrie flat-out admitted it to her.
Taking these considerations into account, along with Natsuhi's acknowledgement of "taking care of Father" to Krauss in Episode 2 is almost certain evidence that they're responsible.
- I, too, think that this is how Battler is going to end up winning.
- HOLD IT!!! Higurashi Rei. Final episode. After waking up, Rika mentions to Hanyuu that she (Rika) should return to being "Rika Furude" and stop being "the witch, Bernkastel."
- This is also why Lambdadelta appears as a young girl, because when's the only time they actually show Bernkastel (outside of a certain Omake)...? Bern's a Little Miss Snarker because that's how Lambdadelta perceives her. That, or she's Trolling her.
In fact, most people on Rokkenjima believe she's more of a manipulative spirit than a benevolent one... therein lies the problem. Someone uses that legend and perception to their advantage; now, she's locked into character.
If Battler accepts that she exists as-is, then he's going to be tortured and toyed with forever. If he manages to completely reject that she exists, he'll wake up... alone. The sole survivor, forced to deal with harsh reality. If he keeps wavering back and forth, unable to decide, they'll be trapped in this deadlock forever.
The real condition for him to win, therefore, is to accept that Beatrice exists... and that she has been manipulated and influenced by sick, pessimistic minds. He must work together with her to transform her into a guardian spirit who can truly save the Ushiromiya... and, in the process, save herself as well.
They might have managed this during the third arc, but their efforts were being subverted - a small part of him still couldn't let go of the image of her as a manipulative monster, and that was leading towards disaster. This is why, once Angetrice showed up, Beatrice latched onto the Villain Ball for dear life, desperately trying to convince Battler "Yes, YES, I'm evil, I tricked you, now for MY SAKE get pissed at me and FIGHT!" She has to be fully accepted by him, and fully redeemed.
- Therefore, Bernkastel may actually be assisting them in a cold, calcuated, manipulative way. Somebody has to seem much, much worse than Beatrice, after all...Virgilia could be in on it, too.
- So would that make Angetrice a complete figment of Battler's subconscious?
- Maybe not. Angetrice was born from Ange's desire to see her brother again, Battler's desire to see his sister again, and Bernkastel's manipulations. (The Plot-Relevant Age-Up and Brother-Sister Incest implications, however, may be mainly because Battler is a bit of an egocentric lech who unconsciously took his sister's devotion a biiiiit too far. His interests sort of explain the Stakes and the Siestas, when you think about it...) She's all about getting Battler motivated via emotional gut punch - and when he finds out who's the Witch behind the Witch who got her involved...
- Okay then, let me just prod a bit more - if Angetrice isn't a figment of Battler's subconscious, then the fact that she showed up when she did in order to pop his happy bubble seems to be a bit of a strike of luck for his subconscious, giving him an opportunity to portray Beatrice once again as a manipulative sadist. What on earth would have happened if she hadn't shown up?
- As mentioned, his subconscious was working against him — on some level, he didn't fully trust Beatrice. He was going along with it because everyone seemed so happy and was headed for a Good End in the Golden Land, but at the same time, he wasn't fully convinced...just coasting along trying to ignore that nagging sense that something wasn't quite right. He still thought she was a manipulative sadist, but was trying to pretend otherwise because he felt Sympathy for the Devil. If he had signed, it would've been his loss, Evil!Beatrice would've 'shown her True Colors', and it'd be a very BAD END for all involved.
- Maybe not. Angetrice was born from Ange's desire to see her brother again, Battler's desire to see his sister again, and Bernkastel's manipulations. (The Plot-Relevant Age-Up and Brother-Sister Incest implications, however, may be mainly because Battler is a bit of an egocentric lech who unconsciously took his sister's devotion a biiiiit too far. His interests sort of explain the Stakes and the Siestas, when you think about it...) She's all about getting Battler motivated via emotional gut punch - and when he finds out who's the Witch behind the Witch who got her involved...
So why can't he use magic too? Because magic is powered by not just determination, but faith and belief as well. Battler is automatically denying himself the use of magic by denying the existence of witches in his duel with Beatrice. In order to be able to use the magic to change his fate, Battler will ultimately have to accept their existence, though not necessarily their involvement in the murders that have taken place. Until then, he will be dueling both Beatrice and fate with one figurative hand tied behind his back.
- Does Battler becoming the Endless Sorcerer at the end of EP5 count?
- Interesting. Would explain why she's a fucking psycho in EP1.
And they're both medical practitioners, of course.
- There's a WMG below that says Nanjo was involved in EP3's murders. This would go so well with it.
- The biggest problem that I can see is that it's much less likely that one can fake their deaths on the island, so unless you can come up with an explanation for why he only survived the 9 twilights once, he can't be the only one. Then there was the explicit statement referring to Episode 1, wherein it was stated in red that "Nanjo is not a murderer", so at the very least, he didn't kill anyone during Episode 1.
- Except that she's using just his last name. Usually, either first names or both names are used. However, Nanjo has a son who could serve as an easy escape hatch on this. It should be clarified to "Terumasa Nanjo is not a murderer."
- When Kyrie suggests in the fourth episode that Kinzo is already dead, the others all seem to suspect it as well. Eva could well have been using the receipt because she suspected Kinzo was dead. If no murders had occurred, while not ironclad evidence, it would have raised sufficient doubt that Krauss and Natsuhi would have been obliged to prove Kinzo was alive if they could. When the six bodies turned up and Kinzo went missing, it must have instead seemed like evidence that Natsuhi was responsible for both.
- Hold it. Hideyoshi and Eva are the victims of the second twilight! If they were in on the murders (let alone murderers themselves), why would they demonstrate so little caution as to allow the murderer into their room (When Hideyoshi is taking a bath of all things!) and allow the murderer to kill them with no sign of a serious struggle?
- Bernkastel is not Rika. And the actual link (at least in the anime; I don't know about the games) is Hanyuu.
- It's implied in the games that Rika was Bernkastel's "piece" on the game board.
- Jokes aside, them being the same person does make sense, given that there's no demon mirroring Kanon.
- You all forgot that there's Meta-Kanon and Meta-Shanon in EP2. And it's also suggested that they remember previous games. Go figure. I think they mirror "each other". And remember that the Siestas didn't have a known vessel when they first appeared; Gaap might be the same.
- I seriously doubt this. Sorry, but it will take more than that to convince me.
And now we not only have an idea where the Meta-World is located (Death's Domain), but we also know what Beatrice's methods are and why she uses them (she's using headology, which relies on belief, to gain power). This would make Bernkastel and Lambdadelta The Auditors.
- Japanese law might say that husbands and wives must share a surname, but it's not unusual for a man to take his wife's family name upon marriage, especially if the wife's family is wealthy and of higher status than his (which sounds likely with the Sumaderas) and if there is no son to carry on the family name in the wife's family. Kyrie's never mentioned anything about a brother, has she?
- Technically speaking, Siestas are furniture of Mariage Sorceriee, so they already are on Battler's side, he just has to summon them. As for the theory itself, it's interesting, and possible, but it goes against the 07th Knox Rule, and it's overdone in general - just doesn't sound like Ryukishi to me. Than again, nobody said that Goldsmith is the killer... If we are to view it from anti-fantasy side, all he did so far was just firing magic lasers and pretending he killed everybody with magic in EP4. Might as well be the same as Beato. But then again Battler being Goldsmith wouldn't change much in that case.
And as a further corollary, if this is true it should be possible to guess who the human culprit is in a particular chapter by seeing whose dialogue best matches up with Beatrice. For example, in Episode 5, Hideyoshi brings up the Three Kingdoms, a motif repeatedly taken up again later by Beatrice and her minions...
- Then, it would mean there is no culprit in EP5. Or rather, "culprit" in this theory only refers to the killer after the first twilight. But it's actually possible there is a separate culprit for the first twilight, so it's not a problem.
- In support of this, dialogue in later Episodes hints at the culprit in a previous one. For instance, when MARIA tortured Rosa, she (Rosa, that is) started sounding very much like Beatrice in Turn/the beginning of Banquet. My guess is that Rosa was the "Mastermind" of Turn, and started in Banquet, but had a change of heart/admitted killing the servants to Eva, who killed her, and of course just eliminated Maria as a witness.
- "Beginning of Banquet" suggests that Beatrice doesn't represent her at the end of Banquet, though. So does Beato switch who she represents there, or does she represent no one after the beginning? Or is it some third option?
- Rosa is the culprit for the Second Game, and the First Twilight of the Third Game. Beato then represents the guilt Eva feels.
- Another hint perhaps is Kyrie's referencing the "North Wind And The Sun" story in the first arc. That may be a hint that she was the third arc's murderer for the first twilight.
- In support of this, dialogue in later Episodes hints at the culprit in a previous one. For instance, when MARIA tortured Rosa, she (Rosa, that is) started sounding very much like Beatrice in Turn/the beginning of Banquet. My guess is that Rosa was the "Mastermind" of Turn, and started in Banquet, but had a change of heart/admitted killing the servants to Eva, who killed her, and of course just eliminated Maria as a witness.
- One game she will invite 'cousin Rika' to the family conference, and Erika will "freak out".
- ...Wait, given that that means she had to have been in Hinamizawa at some point, and given the Fridge Logic of Meakashi/Watanagashi...oh dear lord NO!
- Don't worry; if she's related to the Furude family she's probably immune to Hinamizawa Syndrome, just like Rika.
- Interesting. We never did find out what Natsuhi's maiden name was, did we? This could be right, but it's too soon to say.
- Possible evidence: In the manga, Maria's notebook has drawings of Beatrice (not too surprising), but also of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, well before they appeared in the story.
This probably wouldn't help with finding the killer (kill the parent, take the stake), and each of them having the exact stake would be more of an ass-pull and push it back into fantasy.
- Or: Krauss is Greed, Natsuhi is Sloth, and Eva is Pride.
- While I wouldn't be surprised if I got Natsuhi or Eva wrong, I'd be surprised if Krauss wasn't Sloth. It has been said (at The Other Wiki, so grain of salt and all that) that "He is an investor, but is unable to carry his plans out to the end, resulting in failures." That strikes me as Sloth. Of course, it could be a smokescreen anyway.
- I have a similar idea, but with a difference: In order of rank, it suddenly becomes much clearer. Lucifer tries to assert herself as the oldest, but ends up tormented by the younger ones (That sure sucks, eh, KRAUSS?). Leviathan of Envy (Do I really need to spell it out?) Satan of Wrath (I think it was said Rudolf had a temper...) Belphegor of Sloth (Rosa is seen as a little bit "easygoing" with regards to family affairs...) Mammon of Greed (George? A bit odd, but it works. The more likely suspect would be Battler, since Ange gets along so well with Mammon) Beelzebub of Gluttony (Jessica, since maybe wanting Kanon is asking for too much), and Asmodeus of Lust (Maria, possibly. Or Ange? Thinking about the "Kid" stakes, maybe a few of them share Stake space...).
- In that case, Jessica might be Lust, not Gluttony. Gluttony usually has to do with over-consumption, rather than too much desire. Desire tends to fall into Lust and Envy. Not sure if that helps. Hope so.
- Well, if we take Battler out of the running, it suddenly makes a whole lot of sense. Going by the stakes' personalities and not by what they're supposed to represent, Gluttony fits Jessica for the most part. Plus, Gaap said in EP5 that she was Jessica's mother - or at least Natsuhi imagined it - explaining the drill hair.
- As someone who's played the game, yeah, that's pretty much how it works. If Battler didn't view it and it's not a red truth, don't trust it - there are even some scenes not viewed by Battler where no supernatural stuff occurs, but it is later revealed to be fake.
- I thought he was seeing the whole thing going on. Does he only see the scenes where he pops up to argue with Beatrice?
- Available evidence suggests that Meta-Battler doesn't see everything the 'camera' sees. (For example, he had to ask questions about Jessica & Kanon's death in the second arc, which the viewer had clearly seen.)
- Meta-Battler sees everything that the Battler on Rokkenjima sees, but there's a lot that Battler misses out on, ultimately.
- No, he sees every single thing we see. He asked questions about Jessica's and Kanon's deaths because he believed that's not how they really died (since he doesn't believe in magic), thus he wants Beato to confirm some things with her Red.
- Evidence supports he does see everything we see in EP3. After the magical Beato vs. Virgilia fight he becomes distraught again because he doesn't know how to counter it, which is when Virgilia steps in and provides him (and us) with the Schrodinger's Box perspective. He has to ask for specifics on certain incidents because it's all still being seen exactly how we see it...tinted by Beato's magic-colored glasses.
- As someone who's played the game, yeah, that's pretty much how it works. If Battler didn't view it and it's not a red truth, don't trust it - there are even some scenes not viewed by Battler where no supernatural stuff occurs, but it is later revealed to be fake.
- So if it takes Ryukishi five years to finish a series, and he's going to do four or eight of them, that means the franchise will continue for twenty to forty years?
- Perhaps it'd be easier if we went according to the numbers. Higurashi is When They Cry, and Kai is 2. That'd make Umineko 3 and Chiru 4. Does it still work this way?
- Yes, they do. Look at the cover of EP5. It says "When They Cry 4" after "Welcome to Rokkenjima" under the title (in kanji). Here's a pic of EP5's cover.◊
- Perhaps it'd be easier if we went according to the numbers. Higurashi is When They Cry, and Kai is 2. That'd make Umineko 3 and Chiru 4. Does it still work this way?
If we take an anti-fantasy stance, we have to deny the red truth and then we don't have enough evidence to solve the murders. If we take an anti-mystery stance then we have to assume we don't have enough evidence to solve the murders, but magic has known rules and we'd be able to solve the crimes with those. In other words, any anti-fantasy stance is also an anti-mystery stance and vice-versa.
It's not anti-fantasy vs. anti-mystery, but instead it's both vs. neither.
- We are also told that to see the truth, you need to see it from both standpoints.
So it's pretty much a confirmed fact that Battler is at the very least bisexual, if not a full on queer-o-secksual. The obvious implication of this is that his fondling of breasts is all an ACT due to heteronormative society, supported by the fact that most of his targets are, you know, his cousins, and he's said that if a girl ever actually let him go that far, he'd scold her. But this is just the tip of the iceberg; think about what this could mean for the events of Rokkenjima as a whole. He's also claimed Shannon was his first crush, so either that was a lie or Shkanon is correct, and Meta-Battler knows this. This could mean that Battler's "sin" was Denying his homosexual urges and feelings, and thus pushing them onto "Shannon", effectively denying his relationship with Kanon (don't tell me there wasn't this total vibe with the fertilizer scene).
So with this, we can easily imagine Kanon being the killer, due to butthurt over lack of actual butthurt, hur hur, and so the only way Battler can actually prevent the murders and save everyone is to acknowledge his real feelings and emotions, and come out of the closet. So then, we can presume that Meta-World is a sort of Freudian dream, then, as everything that happens is effectively pushing him to reveal the truth he himself suppressed. Beatrice? Well, like Kinzo's, she's a personification of Battler's "ideal woman", ...except he doesn't actually have one. He just copied Grandpa Kinzo's interests so that he had something to fall back on when asked what he was attracted to. It's the Canadian Girlfriend excuse. Beatrice knows this, and being the part of him that wants Battler to find out the truth, wants to die, as that's the ultimate result of dispelling his self-deception. Beatrice, like magic, is just a delusion created to hide the wounds of the heart. It's already very clear as of Episode 4 that this isn't a battle between Reason and Magic, but a battle between naive idealism versus cruel, undesired reality.
Battler must accept who he really is, and find out it's okay to be gay!
- So does he have the best or worst Coming-Out Story ever?
- Most of your supporting propositions have been Jossed, but your premise hasn't been conclusively overturned — it could probably be shored up. He does appear to appreciate feminine traits, but the lack of them doesn't seem to be a complete deal-breaker for him. I don't know how canon his ending with Ronove in Ougon Musou could be, but it shows that Battler a) loves tits and b) doesn't love them when they're on a man.
- Or he shot Ange on purpose.
- EP6's Tea Party has Amakusa talking on the phone with Okonogi, and a rather strong implication that Amakusa has got a sniper rifle, and has been ordered to finish off Kasumi and her goons at Rokkenjima...AND kill Ange as her attitude makes her a liability. (Puzzlingly, Okonogi says it's "For world peace".)
- No. It's the other way around. Lambdadelta looks more like the young Takano from the epilogue scene. There's an extra TIPS passage that is Lambdadelta's diary. She existed long before the events of Hinamizawa, being very fickle about her magic. She would only let mortals use her Magic of Certainty if they possessed enough of a drive to accomplish their goals. It functioned so that as long as you were determined, you could never fail. She ran across Takano as a little girl, and Takano wished to become like a God. Lambda granted this wish, and went on her merry way. When Takano grew up, she was able to fulfill her goals with the help of the Magic of Certainty. Hanyuu used her powers to transfer Rika across the Sea of Kakera every time she died in order to try and stop the destruction of her town from occurring. The remnants of Rika that didn't make it (anger, cynicism, and hate) found each other among the Sea and formed Bernkastel. Lambda discovered Bern and decided to imprison her because she apparently fell in love with her the minute they met.
- Yes, but how do we know we can take Lambda's testimony on this seriously? She might have fabricated memories to go with the story. After all, it's highly suspicious that she looks just like Takano, and yet has no more connection to her beyond granting a wish.
- Because everyone who knows Lambda has said that she has been around for a very long time. Bern was trapped by Lambda. She wouldn't force something like that upon herself, and only escaped due to a miracle. When Lambda was brought into the Rokkenjima game (or at least found), Bern wasn't too happy about that.
- That proves nothing. Has anyone ever said in the red that Lambda has been around for a long time? They say Bernkastel is over 1000 years old, so the timeline doesn't serve as an argument either. Bern, formerly an aspect of Furude Rika, was trapped by the inevitability of her situation, created by the will of Takano, escaping with her miracle. It was after this that Bernkastel personified fate as a witch like herself: Lambdadelta is retconned into the universe.
- Another bit supporting this theory would be that we know that it was Hanyuu not Lambda that was behind the time-loop/inter-Kakera traveling in Higurashi, so it is unlikely that it could really have been "Lambda's game" the way it is referred to in Umineko.
- While it is Hanyuu (and do we really need to spoil this?) who allowed for the game in Higurashi to happen, it was Lambda's piece who caused the events of the game. Therefore, Higurashi can be called "Lambda's game".
- Yes, but how do we know we can take Lambda's testimony on this seriously? She might have fabricated memories to go with the story. After all, it's highly suspicious that she looks just like Takano, and yet has no more connection to her beyond granting a wish.
- Battler believed, without a doubt, that his heritage was what he thought it was. It was only until the Red Truth failed to work for it that he doubted it at all. Not only that, but the Red Truth is something that is absolutely, undeniably true.
- It's really an issue with the choice of words.
- You're forgetting, the Red Truth is subjective, only Metaphorically True. The Red Truths you're referring to regard the physical means of opening the door. Therefore, the idea of using magic to open the door has not been denied by the Red Truth!
- While a door may only be opened with a key, Beato could lift a key off someone with magic, duplicate and subsequently destroy other keys, alter a key to a different door to fit this lock...
- Looks more like Beato and Battler currently, unless something changes. Rumor is Beato marries Battler near the end.
- Not quite. In Episode 4, we learn that the phones will work if you wish to call someone else on the island, but according to Genji and Kanon, they won't work if you try to call someone not on the island like the police. Consequently, if this holds in all 4 episodes, then the culprit of the final murders can call Battler's group without making Genji and Kanon liars.
- Actually, in the first arc, Genji and Kanon also say the extension phone line (the one that can call the other phones on the island) is broken as well. This is why Genji goes directly to Natsuhi first thing in the morning rather than calling, which due to Genji's personality he would most certainly also do. However it's possible that this was also a lie and that the extension phones were working all along, and only the outside lines were cut for real - both in EP1 and EP4, an attempt to call the police IS made (in EP1 it's after Natsuhi gets the creepy call from Maria and knows the inside line is working, but she still can't get through to the outside; in EP4, before he calls Jessica, Krauss also attempts to call the police, to no avail).
- Lift up the sacrifices chosen by the key: There are six keys that must be used to unlock something. These keys cannot be retrieved.
- Tear apart the two who are close: Two people must go separate ways to open the next lock.
- Praise my name: There is a further puzzle hidden past this point. The only way to open it somehow involves praising Kinzo.
- Gouge the (insert body part) and kill: A series of traps, maybe?
- The witch will revive, and none will survive: A particularly nasty trap, somehow involving a likeness of Beatrice.
- The journey will end, and you will reach the village of gold: Self-explanatory.
- All the gold: Ditto.
- Revival of lost love: The two who went separate ways are reunited.
- Revival of those slain: Anyone killed can be interred with Beatrice.
- The witch will sleep forever: Beatrice is dead, and the tomb will seal once the gold is removed.
- Assuming that the adults were really in the conference room all night, (and I am inclined to believe so) there is absolutely no way that any one or even two of the adults could have committed those murders. As all of the adults were in the conference room all night, the only way any one of them could have committed the murders was to leave the room for an extensive period of time that would have been at least half an hour. However, the behaviors of the adults in the morning after seem to show that they do not suspect any of themselves, which they would have had Natsuhi or Krauss been gone for a hour or so on the night six people were killed.
Thing is, he IS in Purgatorio, better known as Purgatory, because he refuses to pass on until he knows the truth. There are the Seven Sisters of Purgatory, who we meet in EP 2, that cleanse people of their sins. Virgilia appears when he's confounded at the start of EP 3, which is obviously based on Virgil, Dante's guide through Purgatory from the Divine Comedy, where Beatrice's name also comes from. Then there's Ange, who is speculated to have died at the end of EP 4's flashback to her time on Rokkenjima. She is also a restless spirit, and wants to be reunited with Battler, so she enters Purgatorio to meet him and help him solve the mystery; of equal importance is Lamdadelta revealing to her that even if she helps him solve the mystery, the Ange that reunites with Battler won't be her. The entire time, Spirit-Battler is trying to find out the murderer and give his family a happy ending. If he accomplishes this, he will be at peace, and finally enter heaven.
This, and:
- Dante: Short for Durante, which means "enduring" or "lasting"
- To endure, one suffers hardships and is implied to overcome them at the end
- To overcome something, one must defeat or conquer something.
- To defeat something is "to overcome in a contest, election, battle, etc."
- One who battles would be called a battler
- The protagonist is named Battlernote , and meets with Beatrice, Virgil(ia), and representations of the Seven Deadly Sins
- The manga suggests this might be true, though it might just be Beato messing with Battler's head.
This totally circumvents the issue of the chain on Eva's door and explains why Eva's corpse still had shoes on, the appearance of all magic elements, and the burning of Kinzo's corpse. It also evades the mess of red surrounding Kanon's supposed death.
The culprits can be others manipulated by Shannon, but I have a feeling that Shannon's gonna be Umineko's Takano. She's just waaaay too 'innocent', and she almost always 'dies' near the beginning. I believe that she's actually not in love with George, but George is the one with an obsessive love towards her like Kinzo's towards Beatrice. Thus, Shannon feels a strong link between herself and Beatrice. Have you ever noticed how George and Shannon were never chosen as sacrifices for the second twilight? Ever noticed how Battler never sees Shannon talk about her love for George, only George about Shannon? Shannon fell in love with Battler six years ago, because of that "white horse" line. Thus, in Episode 2, when Shannon apparently keeps hoping that George would 'save her', she was actually wishing for Battler to save her (on a white horse). And Eva actually didn't object to George's feelings for Shannon. She wanted George to be happy, and was annoyed when Shannon shows dislike for George, and what she whispered to Shannon was actually about how she doesn't have a choice whether to marry George or not. That turned Shannon twisted. Thus, she remembers her strong link with Beatrice, and wishes to make herself known as the new "Beatrice" of Rokkenjima.
In Episode 1, she kills the first five adults and fakes her own death, also returning the key to throw suspicion on the remaining servants. She escapes the storage house as she might've conspired with Natsuhi. She then captures Kanon and locks him up in the boiler room and takes his place (her breasts are fake). She might've conspired with Gohda, who hid under Eva and Hideyoshi's bed and killed them there. Shannon-as-Kanon drew the magic circle on the door and slotted the letter, and pretended to go get the wirecutter and told Genji it appeared only after she came back from getting the wirecutter.
When Shkanon and Kumasawa went to the boiler room and heard a slam, Shkanon immediately ran there, knowing that it could very well be the real Kanon escaping. She goes there and kills him for reals before fleeing into the courtyard, which is why the door was left open. She hides in Kinzo's study and puts the letter there when no one was watching, and kills the people who were chased out. When the rest were questioning Maria, Shannon sends a letter in secret to Natsuhi, probably with some more conditions of their alliance, which for some reason outrages her, causing her to go out and confront Shannon. Gohda and Shannon, however, overwhelm her. At the very end, when the children are confronting Beatrice, Shannon reveals herself and kills the kids. What she did to threaten Battler later was unknown, but she might or might not have killed him as well.
I'll post the Culprit: Shannon theory about the other episodes later.
- It's child's play to discount that The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. No body double tricks were possible. Sure, but if there isn't a body there to begin with then there's no unidentified corpse, and no need for a body double trick. The only people who saw Shannon's body were Kanon and Hideyoshi, both of whom she could have convinced to go along with it. When the murders continued, Eva, Hideyoshi, and Kanon were the next three victims; if Shannon was the culprit in the first arc and they covered up her continued well-being, then she has a very noticeable motive in killing them before continuing the murders, because she would be the first suspect any of them would think of when someone turned up dead while everyone else had alibis.
- Actually, this is not even needed. " The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. No body double tricks were possible" can be ignored even if there is a "corpse" there. After all, it was never explicitly said that they were dead nor did they have anyone come back later to check if the bodies were still there. Thus it is possible Shannon posed as her own 'corpse' and escaped later, though she would need an accomplice to open the shutter for her - probably Kanon or even George (see below).
- It's forbidden for a servant to be the culprit.
- Though the real Shkanonatrice theory says that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all parts of Yasu, who is the current head of the family. He/she is not a servant; he/she is only pretending to be one.
- Also, it's never been stated that gameboards comply to Van Dine's rules. It's very likely that they doesn't. It's not been even stated whether the story conforms to Knox's Decalogue.
- Can't be. Ange received a letter herself, and literally every surviving family member of the victims, save for Eva, received a letter. They couldn't all be accomplices.
- The letters were addressed to Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Rudolf. The survivors were listed as the senders of those letters.
- With the implication that way more than those three received letters, considering how many faults there were that belonged to the mysterious sender. Unless literally everyone on Rokkenjima was an accomplice, the idea doesn't work.
- Not all of the accomplices would need to go to Rokkenjima. It's entirely possible that the culprit also had need of assistance from people who never needed to go to the island at all. Just because there wasn't an 18th person on the island doesn't mean there weren't X number of accomplices arranging details so that their benefactor could pull of his/her plan.
- This still requires there to be literally dozens or even hundreds of accomplices for only 17 murders, and that all of these accomplices were apparently relatives. Sorry, but this is even more of a stretch than Small Bombs.
- I don't believe there is any reason to believe that there would be that many accomplices. There were hundreds of safety deposit boxes, but only the ones with green lights belonged to the culprit's account, and I don't recall there being any mention of how many there were of those.
- The green lights referred only to the specific boxes that could be opened by a specific key, and the keys each opened different boxes.
But Kinzo probably didn't stop there: after Hime-Beatrice (Beato) died, he looked for a new victim, and found it in Rosa who was guilt-ridden after Beato's death. (Ever wonder why Eva had to fight for her place in the line of inheritance while Rosa easily kept it? Because Maria is not just Kinzo's grandchild, but his daughter as well...)
Finally, after assaulting Jessica, Kinzo was killed by Krauss. When "Umineko" starts, the nightmare should be over, but Kinzo's influence made his family distrust each other, so they start killing each other - in a different way each arc.
- Wow...this actually makes sense! Kinzo assaulting Jessica...That's sort of [[Squick not imaginable]], though.
- Why not? She does look somewhat similar to Beatrice. Even if you don't believe that, she has blonde hair and Kinzo is known to be quite the Europhile.
- I think the above troper means not imaginable in a different way than you understood it.
- In that flashback, it was stated that that was not a representative sample of Kinzo's personality and attitudes. In said flashback, he also went off at Krauss for laziness. Kinzo meant to say something like "You are quite an impressive person, but unless you learn how to cook without burning water, you're not going to land a man worthy of such an impressive person, and dammit Eva, you're the only one in this family likely to produce a grandchild worthy of the Ushiromiya name!", but due to both his senility and the Racist Grandpa principle, it came out sounding like Stay in the Kitchen.
- Possibly supported in this line from EP3's manga.◊Krauss (to Eva, after Kinzo's outburst): Eva, take your leave. It's not his true feelings. I'll calm him down.
- Possibly supported in this line from EP3's manga.◊
- Yup, that's what I thought too. I believed that she took Kanon's body so that it could be posed as her own during the 4th twilight, while she escapes unscathed to kill the rest. Just like how in EP4, Kanon's body wasn't found yet he was confirmed dead - I think Shannon took it and disguised it as herself.
- I would like to point out that Shannon could well have been "working on" Kinzo's will as in fabricating it, and set things up so that things would go well for her, Rosa, and Genji. That doesn't rule out this possibility, though, if she finished writing it earlier than she told everyone and killed another heir, Jessica, that she had included to throw off suspicion. I will point out, though, that Shannon cannot have disguised Kanon's corpse as herself. No double body tricks are possible, and the identities of all named corpses are confirmed.
- But the Red doesn't work that way; it doesn't allow things you simply think are true, they have to be genuinely factual. Otherwise Battler would've never had a problem with using the Red.
- But an opinion can be neither purely fact nor purely fiction. Something factual, like whether Asumu's Battler's mother, can have an absolute truth to it, but a judgement of an individual can't. That's where the difference lies. This person's arguing that since there can be neither a pure truth to a judgment, such things get lumped into the red, whether or not they would be judged to be true by a different person.
- Battler's incompetence was in how he used the Devil's Proof. The "Tiny Bombs" bit was perfectly valid. Seriously, "because of the Devil's Proof" isn't a magic "I don't have to explain this unlikely element" incantation.
From the time Beato handed the envelope to Maria until Rosa unsealed it in the morning, the key passed through no one's hands. If the chapel was locked to begin with, the key couldn't have been used to let the victims in, and if it was initially unlocked, the key couldn't have been used to lock it after the murders. In other words, the only possibility is that the door wasn't ever locked at all.
- Not actually true. The red text says that the envelope remained sealed until Rosa opened it the next day, not the next morning. Rosa could have opened the envelope at one minute past midnight on the second day or any time after that, and it wouldn't conflict with the red text, so there's plenty of time for the key to be used to lock or unlock the door.
- Of course, that contradicts the scene where the adults meet Beato, which happened before midnight.
- No proof that actually happened, though.
- Of course, that contradicts the scene where the adults meet Beato, which happened before midnight.
- Chapel was indeed never locked as confirmed by Will in Funeral of the Witch in EP7 - "Illusions to illusions. .....The gold truth locks the lock of illusions."
There was a scene where Genji told Rosa the door was locked, but it was already open by the time Battler arrived. How do we know that scene wasn't false, or that Genji wasn't lying to Rosa?
- Also, keep in mind that Rosa is present in that chapel with the rest of the siblings and their spouses. She appears in the chapel scene, acknowledges Beatrice like everyone else there, and wakes up the next morning in her bed. If we go by a theory on wordplay that appears further up, Rosa could have opened the key the second it became midnight, the second it became "the next day" of Beatrice's statement about the letter not being opened until the next day, used some sort of pretext to lure her siblings and their spouses into the chapel, and killed them. Maria could also have received that letter at a later point than we are told she did.
- Genji wasn't lying. He only said that lock to the chapel is special and master key doesn't work on it and that key to the chapel is missing from key box. Which is true. Also, remember that: 1.Rosa is an accomplice and Genji is one of culprits in this Episode so Genji might be telling her how to act. 2.Scenes not seen by Battler are not to be believed.
- There are five Master Keys, one for each servant!
- But if there is a fake Master Key that merely "appears" like a Master Key but doesn't work, then it cannot be called a true Master Key, now, can it? On Rokkenjima, there are, indeed, five Master Keys, and one key that looks like a Master Key, but isn't.
- That explains why the Red truth is, you know... red.
- .....
- I don't buy it. Bernkastel was originally an aspect of Rika Furude, and I doubt the two families are linked. They don't care about anyone in the game, they're just bored.
- If I might take it a step further and present a theory of my own, it's because Lambdadelta has a stake in the game, and granted Beatrice her power of "certainty" to win. However, Battler's appearance was an unexpected and unwanted variable, yet it's too late to call off the game and Beatrice can't go against Lambdadelta unless she wants her witchy sponsor to abandon her, which she believes (at first) will reduce her to a mere human. The truth is, of course, that she doesn't need the acknowledgement in the first place, but she has forgotten that, and Lambdadelta is using her as a plaything to be discarded at her leisure. Also, Frederica Bernkastel was sorely lacking empathy or real compassion back in Higurashi: When They Cry, so if it's the same person, she's been a sore loser for some time now.
- That sounds about right, but I would amend that, since the game was always expected to involve Battler, and Lambdadelta and Bernkastel both bank on this, the unexpected element is Battler actually doing well.
- If I might take it a step further and present a theory of my own, it's because Lambdadelta has a stake in the game, and granted Beatrice her power of "certainty" to win. However, Battler's appearance was an unexpected and unwanted variable, yet it's too late to call off the game and Beatrice can't go against Lambdadelta unless she wants her witchy sponsor to abandon her, which she believes (at first) will reduce her to a mere human. The truth is, of course, that she doesn't need the acknowledgement in the first place, but she has forgotten that, and Lambdadelta is using her as a plaything to be discarded at her leisure. Also, Frederica Bernkastel was sorely lacking empathy or real compassion back in Higurashi: When They Cry, so if it's the same person, she's been a sore loser for some time now.
- Which version of EP1 does he say it in: Anime, Manga, or VN?
- It only appears in the Visual Novel, since it's in the airport and both of the other versions cut that.
- Good riddance.
- So what does that mean? Are you proposing that this all comes down to those promises Battler got out of Maria?
- Most likely, the 1129 is Beatrice's "birthday"; she solved the epitaph on November 29, 1984.
- Actually, it seems that good old Trollkastel feels the exact opposite of the way you think she acts: "......All this about love......and promises. ......To end the game quietly and let her sleep in peace? ......That sort of ending would make anyone vomit. I didn't give Battler all that advice so that he could end things like that. ......I had his little sister turned to scrap meat behind his back. I had his parents and family killed horribly over and over again. That was all to spark a desire for revenge against Beato." - Episode 6
- "The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name!
- Kanon's real name is "Yoshiya". The Red Truth could refer to the real name "Yoshiya" instead of his servant name "Kanon". In other words, that red could be read as "the only person who can claim the name 'Yoshiya' is the servant called 'Kanon'! A different person cannot claim the name 'Yoshiya' for themselves!"
- Name Yoshiya is later revealed to be false. Also: EP6 Red - 'It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.' And EP8 manga - 'The name Kanon can only be carried by the person himself!'
- Kanon's real name is "Yoshiya". The Red Truth could refer to the real name "Yoshiya" instead of his servant name "Kanon". In other words, that red could be read as "the only person who can claim the name 'Yoshiya' is the servant called 'Kanon'! A different person cannot claim the name 'Yoshiya' for themselves!"
- Bernkastel and Featherine don't know the truth about what happened on Rokkenjima Prime; that's why they need Ange's key in EP 8. So it may in fact be true. Then again, she could have hit upon the solution by coincidence; Bern being a troll doesn't prove or disprove the theory.
- I doubt she found the solution by coincidence. That would be forbidden under both Knox's 6th and Knox's 8th, as would finding the solution by random chance.
- She didn't "find" the solution; it's not so much intuition as it is basically picking the solution designed to hurt Ange the most and having a one in five (four immediate families, plus Yasu and servants) chance of it being right. I'm just saying that since she's going into it blind, the fact that she chose that particular scenario doesn't help or hurt the chances of it being right.
- I doubt she found the solution by coincidence. That would be forbidden under both Knox's 6th and Knox's 8th, as would finding the solution by random chance.
As the Magic Ending shows, Ange really did jump off a building in a legitimate suicide attempt. In a Near-Death Experience, her spirit, as her body falls toward the safety net we know will break her fall, travels to Purgatory — where Battler's memories are struggling with Sayo's spirit to figure out what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986 — and allies with Bernkastel due to the latter promising to help rewrite the past so Everybody Lives, taking the name "Gretel" on the witch's orders.
From here, Ange's Meta-World events — reviving Sakutaro, revealing her identity to Battler, being revived by Featherine to be the latter's miko, the events of EP8 — all unfold as we see over the course of the story there.
Ange then returns to the real world to learn that she survived her jump, and decides to abandon the Ushiromiya name and move on with her life. Before she can tell Okonogi this, Kasumi Sumadera interferes as we see in EP4 forcing Ange to go on the run with Amakusa, and realizing she needs to clean up loose ends first.
Subconsciously guided by her meeting with Featherine, Ange starts by seeking out Tōya Hachijo, this time gaining an audience with the elusive writer despite several previous attempts ending in failure. It is unknown why Ikuko and Tōya finally relented, only that they did so, albeit with the advance decision that Tōya would not appear, despite Ange having seen him at a book signing event in the past, and Ikuko would introduce herself as "Tōya" to Ange. Ange asks Ikuko about the forgeries, and Ikuko presents Ange with the forgery that Dawn of the Golden Witch is based on. Ikuko has Ange beta-read it with Amakusa present.
After Ange finishes, Amakusa steps outside while Ange bids "Tōya" farewell. Ange winds up overhearing Amakusa talking to Okonogi about a plan to have Ange killed, assuming Okonogi to be the mastermind due to the problems Ange knows she has been causing him with her refusal to inherit the family estate, and learning of the "toy" Okonogi has sent to Amakusa for the matter.
Ange decides to meet with Professor Ōtsuki, a member of Witch Hunt, to follow up on the forgeries, presenting the note from Beatrice in Maria's grimoire for comparison with the original message bottle allegedly signed by Maria, and discovers that the handwritings are a match. The forgery was written by Beatrice.
Ange then meets with Masayuki Nanjo and Sabakichi Kumasawa, in that order, and learns of the letters sent to both men, as well as possibly other surviving relatives of those who died in 1986, whose handwriting also matches that of the note in Maria's grimoire, proving that Beatrice sent the letters as well.
Ange then contacts Captain Kawabata, asking for passage to Rokkenjima. At the same time, Ange obtains a new Sakutaro doll — mirroring her resurrection of him in Purgatory, having learned that Rosa had bought the original doll, which was mass-produced — and a bouquet of flowers.
While en route to Rokkenjima, Ange likely finds out what Amakusa's new "toy" from Okonogi is — a sniper rifle — and definitely confronts him about the plot to have her killed, getting her hands on his Tokarev and holding him at gunpoint, all in line with the Trick Ending.
Except... Amakusa instead reveals that Kasumi Sumadera may be lying in wait at Rokkenjima to kill Ange so that House Sumadera inherits the Ushiromiya fortune through Ange's blood ties to Kyrie. Okonogi provided him with the sniper rifle so he can cover her while she takes care of whatever business she has at Rokkenjima.
Ange completes her journey to Rokkenjima, drops the bouquet and the new Sakutaro doll into the crater, and has her showdown with her aunt Kasumi, ending with the latter's death at Amakusa's hands. Having finally obtained the closure she needed, Ange returns to the mainland and signs away her inheritance to Okonogi. It is at this time that "Ange Ushiromiya dies without fail in 1998" while her body and memories continue to live as Yukari Kotobuki, author of children's books.
2X years later, Yukari, now in her 50s, reunites with Ikuko Hachijo, who seemingly hasn't aged a day, at the Fukuin House. Yukari has assumed ownership of the abandoned home and converted it into an orphanage, reconstructing the lobby in the image of the destroyed Ushiromiya mansion on Rokkenjima. Accompanying Ikuko is the real Tōya Hachijo, a wheelchair-bound man in his 60s. Yukari sees Battler in Tōya as Ikuko reveals the truth to her, while Tōya takes in the redesigned lobby, and feels "Battler" fading from his mind.
He is still Tōya Hachijo, he still has Battler Ushiromiya's memories, but the conflict between Battler's memories and Tōya's identity has finally been settled.
At last, he is at peace.
Simply by the presence of the relevant scenes, this level of reasoning is possible.
What do you think, everyone?