The General Star Wars Thread

If they do a story about ending the constant cycles of good vs evil, then it should be for a grand finale for Star Wars.

Because we're here for the war between the space wizards, the rebels vs empire or whatever factions that are aligned with the Jedi and Sith.

If you end that, then there's nothing left for Star Wars to do. You get replacements like the Vong.

Sure you can do standalone movies or series without Jedi or Sith, but an entire trilogy without them would be unthinkable. They are the very core faction of the series, the thing that sets Star Wars apart from other franchises.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 29th 2024 at 12:19:09 AM

Since my reply to this track was the page bottomer, reposting it here:

That does sound like the kind of reason the development of the ST might have had for making a decision like that - it's a very surface level reason that's not especially good, and undercuts the drama of the story in favor of keeping a superficial idea of what the franchise is "supposed" to be in place, which is where a lot of the ST's issues came from.

But I think the reason is more simple. They saw how divisive the last couple films were, and had Abrams try to win back the crowd by making a movie that was even more reminiscent of the old ones than before, throwing in Palpatine like that joke the Simpsons made about Squiggy and superficially trying to just do everything the fans asked all at once.

TROS was a poorly conceived attempt to Win Back the Crowd. "We'll stop doing anything different - anything you guys want, we'll just do it... oops, now we have a mess!"

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2024 at 9:21:41 AM

If the story was gonna say that the cycle of good and evil needed to stop, then the story should have actually taken chances to actually suggest this as an actual motive for characters. Because as I see it, when Kylo Ren promises that it comes across as a lie. Immediately after Rey rejects him he doesn't say "Let's try another approach." He's all "Gun them down. Kill them all." I actually think that idea of creating something new is a cool concept, but one that needed to actually be implemented as a plot point instead of a throwaway line, especially when the sequel after drops it entirely.

That in a nutshell is why I hate The Force Awakens. It is the snowball that spiraled out of control because of this terrible decision to just say "yeah, our heroes won the war but lost the peace." It doesn't come across as clever as new shows like Ahsoka keep thinking it is and instead looks like the most cliche thing ever. So far the attempt at "depth" and Dave Filoni's plan to Clone Wars this mess is to say that the New Republic is already fascist from its onset which...... Yeah no, I hate this plot point.

Last Jedi's message of "follow my chain of command and don't be a rebel, I say to a band of rebels" is a very interesting idea that should have been explored more. Because the more I think it over the more I realize this idea kinda rocks if done well. Especially if this "New Republic" that is secretly fascist is something that the Resistance wants to restore and fix. It comes across as insanity where they expect a different outcome from the same set of circumstances. "Corrupt Republic fell, heroic alliance restores it, Republic gets corrupt again, heroic resistance restores it, Republic gets corrupt again....." There is probably something there that needs to be addressed. At some point the heroes need to decide what they are actually fighting for.

Not that things were much better in Legends. The Galactic Civil War essentially went on for like, what, 30 years? With occasional interspersion with conflicts from other races or factions?

Seriously, so much of the early OT fiction in Legends was just "The New Republic is fighting this Imperial Warlord."

But I would say Last Jedi's message in the Resistance plot is more a subversion of the "Only the heroes know what they need to do" because if anything Poe and Finn's plan actually ruined Holdo and Leia's.

Edited by theLibrarian on Apr 28th 2024 at 12:23:19 PM

I am not sure why you feel the need to bring Legends into a discussion of the ST?

I mean in general, statements that say something like " hey...X is bad, but Y and Z too weren't great", are not a great defense of X, since people only register the first part of the sentence: Hey....X is bad

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With that said, not only did Legends have some works of better quality, (like the Thrawn trilogy) but the point missed in your analogy is that things moved foreward.

There was no Happy Ending Override for the OT heroes, their victories and sacrifices in ROTJ were not erased, and the protagonists did not die a failure, nor was the alliance and the NR curshed in 5 seconds.

Sure, in every story, a new enemy appeared, because well....a story needs an antagonist, but the Empire is still defeated, the New Republic is still a thing that grows and gets stronger with every story, and despite the setbacks, the new Jedi Order is prospering and evolving.

It is the difference between building a new floor over an existing building, and demolishing the building to build a new one that is identical to the old, but of lesser quality.

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Honestly, that plotline was idiotic, and showed that Holdo was unfit to be a leader.

During a time of existential threat, where your men face the danger of annihilation, your priority should be to inspire confidence and hope, not to act haughtily, antagonize them for no reason, or play useless secret games.

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I read somewhere that the original intention was that Holdo doubted  the existence of a spy in the Resistance who is transmitting the fleet's location to the FO, and this is how they know where to find them every time, so that is why she was secretive, which made sense.

But what we got in the movie instead is Holdo being antagonistic towards her own people for petty reasons or none at all.

Edited by jawal on Apr 28th 2024 at 7:34:22 PM

I'm positive that's just fanon perpetuated as a defense of Holdo's plotline, I've not once seen anyone post any source or backup for it.

It took a few rewatches but I figured out something for The Last Jedi. When they characters are asking how the first order can track the alliance what they don’t know is that Rey has the beacon to track Leia and get to her. But Leia may have left another one that got forgotten.

A memento given to Ben Solo that was kept as Kylo Ren. One he uses to track the resistance. What a reveal that could have been.

Poe: It’s Leia….. Leia is the tracking device.

And then the heroes end up realizing that Kylo Ren is Leia’s son. One that would make people pissed.

Holdo: I cannot believe that you would just neglect to mention that your son is leading the enemy like this!

Holdo has a point in being secretive with the chance of a spy on board. A spy could relay that information back to the First Order. Now that doesn’t excuse how the First Order cannot see the literal planet sitting straight in front of them or why Holdo didn’t just say “I got a plan, just stay out of trouble, trust me.” Poor Communication Kills. These are plot points that can work but they needed a rewrite or two to iron out some plot holes.

Or maybe I’m just giving Rian too much credit. Maybe he just wasn’t that smart when crafting this screenplay.

From what I recall from actually being around during Legends, that time period made all the same mistakes - but in much wider scale ways (seeing as they're only limited to the one story in canon) - and, at the time, got pretty much all the same criticisms for it.

Things didn't really move forward in Legends - Legends was built on a more archetypical universe idea where every single conflict just led into another one - which ultimately meant at the end of the day things got very repetitive as beats ended up being repeated rather than resolution coming.

Which isn't to say that was worse, but I also wouldn't say it was better. Especially given that, contextually, Legends stories were by and alrge hit or miss with very strong high points surrounded by fairly ubiquitous lowpoints. At the end of the day you need consistency to back that approach up.

I disagree with this notion that Kylo's whole motivation as connected to ending cycle is limited only to that one line towards the end.

Thematically, the whole idea Kylo is setting up in contrast to the overarching theme of the conflict being cyclical is that he has a solution, it's just a self absorbed and violent one - one the heroes have to oppose. Kylo's whole response to the set up is "screw the Jedi, screw the Sith, screw everything that came before, I'm going to destroy it, forget it, and start over the way I want." He, of all the characters, it by and large the most connected to the overall theme.

As the set up goes, the heroes finding a Taking a Third Option tract and enacting that more or less a third act thing, so more than likely it was intended to be something that really got delved into on the heroes' side later.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2024 at 12:09:45 PM

Probably, but if that explanation was in the movie, it would have made Holdo's actions more justifiable, instead of what we got, which is her being hostile and secretive just because.

Edited by jawal on Apr 28th 2024 at 8:17:25 PM

TLJ implied there was some clever way Hux was tracking the Resistance, and given similar events in the franchise can be assumed there is a spy or at least a tracking device planted. But 10 minutes later it was revealed to be new technology that was known to being researched but a working version was kept secret. Having an "I win button" with no real effort isn't all that clever, which is why people assumed there was a spy and the situation on the Raddus more complicated than it was.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking with the tracking storyline. It all felt like they needed something for the Resistance to be doing/running away from/etc that Excuse Plot-ed everyone having their own adventures, but it feels like an afterthought, everyone on the Raddus comes off worse for being involved in it, and the portion of the plot with Finn and Rose dedicated to stopping the tracking ultimately feels like a lot of time spent that goes nowhere.

Imo, it really just should've been a siege on Crait the whole time.

The conversation goes from The enemy has a possible Theoretical advantage to The enemy must have it and it must be behind THIS type of security

Granted the Film proves that the heroes are right but They make ALOT of assumptions on where and how they need to get to the device except for the one obvious thing.

Its gonna be in a room full of ARMED guards

The problem with people criticising the cycles of war between light and dark, is that its more due to out of universe fatigue then anything actually wrong with it in-universe.

Its the Superhero Paradox, and the answer is the exact same here as it is there in comics.
Good and Evil have to fight because otherwose we'd have no story, and the in-universe the logic is the same as its always been as well, those who are Evil when given power will always abuse it, and those who are Good when given power will always take up the responsibility.

Destroying the Jedi and Sith will at best will only remove the names, something new will inevitably rise to replace it, but thats not a bad thing... because at the end of the day, the battle between good and evil is part of a natural cycle, the ultimate embodiment of the differance between the selfish and the selfless, which some like to pretend doesn't exist in a mistaken attempt to appear mature.

Edited by Avenger09 on Apr 29th 2024 at 7:40:15 PM

tbh because of the paneling I initially thought they were tracking Rose's little memento thing somehow.

Even with a nominal spy, Holdo absolutely knows its not Poe and allegedly believes he's a loose cannon who can't be trusted. So either arrest him or have a private meeting and explain.

It's one of quite a few a places where TLJ let's preservation of a twist override everything else...

If there is a spy, it will make sense to be secretive, because even if Poe is innocent, the real spy may be obtaining his information from him, so a need-to-know basis will be wise and necessary, until the culprit is found.

Here, however, it seems Holdo is being secretive just as a way of putting Poe in his place, as in every time he asks her for clarification, she snaps at him, cites her authority, mocks him, and makes not-so-veiled insults against his character.

This is not a behavior worthy of a leader in an emergency; she should be the bigger person and focus on raising the morals and confidence of her followers, not creating internal conflicts.

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The movie clearly had a message he tried to convey with that plotline, but the execution failed miserably at it.

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This reminds me of the  How It Should Have Ended video when Admiral Akhbar took command instead, and set a trap for Hux (minutes 1.06 and 3.16) and it is actually better than what we got.

Edited by jawal on Apr 28th 2024 at 10:08:29 AM

On one hand Holdo is responsible for showing leadership and taking control of the situation and clearly communicating expectations with her crew.

On the other hand, Poe isn’t entitled to know everything and the risk of a spy would warrant caution.

So it’s a mixed bag of issues. I think that her acting all aggressive to him is unwarranted, even if say Poe’s necessary (yes, necessary) attack on the dreadnaught prior caused him to get some of her friends killed (which btw isn’t in the movie.) but she could have kept him on the wraps and said “we’re in a crisis right now. Follow protocol which dictates we head to a resupply station and reassess the situation. Don’t, try anything stupid.”

The movie tries this but the dialogue is just so badly written it comes across as terrible communication for the sake of a twist. There are ways to maintain tension. Holdo is justified in keeping the plan on a need to know basis. The exact details don’t need to be communicated but the general message of everybody keep your heads down isn’t a bad one. And at the very least, distract Poe if nothing else. If he’s a hot shot mess as you claim he is, give him an errand. How about “order him to flee the Raddus and look for resources. Maybe with Finn.

Boom. Easily fixed.

Edited by Patar136 on Apr 28th 2024 at 2:41:56 AM

and Well, the obvious problem with both of those is that Poe challenges her, in front of a bunch of other people on 'is there a plan, or are we just running until we run out of gas [so dumb] and get blown up' which she just doesn't answer.

This is a ship which is already running into so many morale problems that it's had to station techs with weapons to prevent deserters. The morale problems are absolutely crippling and she does exactly nothing to solve them, such that Poe wants to (and is able to) organize a mutiny onboard the ship, which only Leia's sudden resurrection prevents from succeeding!

Especially since there is no way to keep this actually secret. The plan relies upon having a bunch of stealth transports and gearing up to use them (even putting aside that Poe seems to still be in charge of their small craft, after all, he can send the others out on their mission, right? He can't override Holdo, but he has enough control to get them a ship and get them away and ends up in command of the defense of the base, despite the fact that the command crew are on the same ship as him, suggesting he's the second in command of this operation) and loading everyone into them. If there is a spy, their plan is absolutely fucked, because the spy can just take whatever they're using to communicate onto the shuttles and down to the base.

But the other problem of course is that, we, the audience, knows what happens once Poe is told about the plan, he goes 'great, let's do that!'

Edited by ECD on Apr 28th 2024 at 4:52:50 AM

As I said, it seems the movie was trying to present some kind of message, against  the gung ho, macho man type of heroes, and how you should respect the chain of command, but didn't think the details through and Holdo become Unintentionally Unsympathetic to many fans (including yours only).

So ..a case of subverted expectations.

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Interestingly, the Umbara arc in Star Wars: The Clone Wars ( Season 4, episodes 7–11) addressed a similar situation.

A group of clones is put under the command of a new Jedi knight, and he keeps sending them on badly planned frontal attacks and suicidal missions, causing the deaths of many soldiers.

Every attempt at suggesting better plans, or even asking for details is met with hostility, reminding the clones that he (the Jedi Knight) is in command and they (the clones) should remember their place.

At the end, the Clones arrest the Jedi, which was a  good move, because, as it turns out, he has fallen to the Dark Side, after seeing a vision of the Sith's victory and has become convinced that if he kills as many of the clones as possible, Dooku will take him as an apprentice. 

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So the final message is, "You should question authority, if they are acting shifty, even if they are Jedi and paragons of peace and justice"

TLJ message ended up being the opposite. "You should never question authority; do as you are told and keep your mouth shut; your leader (a never-before-seen character) knows what is best"

It is especially ironic because the clones are programmed to obey commands while the Resistance are rebels fighting against authoritarianism.

Edited by jawal on Apr 28th 2024 at 2:50:16 PM

It's an underlying issue that for a large enough franchise, an individual work trying to pick apart fundamental aspects of the franchise tends to have nowhere to go. Either the scope of the work is a superficial understanding of the greater franchise or it's acting like it is bringing up truly insightful arguments as though the work has been ignoring it the entire time. The Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy were generational stories highlighting how conflicts change over time, so any effort of the Sequel Trilogy to be "We figured out the problem and have a solution this time" falls flat. The Abrams Star Trek movies were similar, as it catered heavily to a pop culture idea of Star Trek and was unwilling to really take risks.

The Holdo subplot in TLJ is one where you can see what they were going for but it was done in such a awful way that it is hard to care about what they were going for. Like sure there are definitely times when you need to follow authority but, when you do everything in your power to present the authority as un trustworthy that when the authority was revealed to be trustworthy it feels less like a subversion and more like a gacha moment. The Holdo subplot was a surface level subversion take.

This is the true reason there will always be conflict in the galaxy. Because there's always going to be selfish assholes trying to take everything, and there will always be people trying to stop said assholes.

Ironically, Ben's "solution" to this was incredibly selfish too, meaning he was just playing right into the cycle.

Edited by M84 on Apr 28th 2024 at 9:40:27 PM

I don't consider Holdo/Poe's sub plot from The Last Jedi to be deep or especially clever because this could have easily been addressed and prevented with a normal conversation between these two.

And personally I have a very specific criticism of stories that try to say "Listen hero, you lack discipline and responsibility. You need to learn about the circle of trust, by trusting your superiors and not just doing things your way." Like maybe that works for another story in a different context but can you apply that to the story about the band of rebels, who are fighting an authoritarian regime? Should moral be "blindly obey your superiors even when the orders seem wrong?" No, it probably shouldn't.

Poe Dameron shouldn't be trying to cause a mutiny, that's for sure, but you can't blame him when Holdo is just hiding information for no reason. And it doesn't help that this makes Poe seem a lot more villainous than necessary. Like Force Awakens Poe Dameron, in my opinion, doesn't feel like the person who would endanger all these people in the first place. And if it turns out he won't rebel when you explain the plan to him then maybe you should have done the former. It comes across as less of a subversive plot and more "We could have avoided this."

I feel like the EU makes it even worse because isn't there something suggesting the bombers were originally under Hold's command or subordinate to her group? Making it come off like she's mad that her subordinates would ignore Leia's orders to follow Poe instead. And that apparently according to the wiki it was originally Rose's technology they were using for the cloaking which she had Rose teach her people how to make but didn't bother to include her on the plan.

Edited by doineedaname on Apr 28th 2024 at 10:10:40 AM

That her men have so little faith in her that they were easily talked into a mutiny doesn't say good things about her skills as a leader.