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03/24/2020 13:52:00 •••

Mirror, Mirror, On The Wall...

As a Team Cap supporter (and a hardcore one at that), I want to say that this series is a reflection of everything wrong with the MCU's fandom, the inherent hypocrisy that permeates it.

Four years ago, CACW came out and split the fandom in two. That was the point of the movie, of course, can't have a Civil War if everyone's all buddy-buddy, right? But it did it's job too well. Soon after the movie released, a veritable avalanche of Pro-Tony supporters descended upon AO 3, churning out bucketloads of stories revolving around one simple premise:

Tony Stark can do no wrong.

Sure, the stories themselves varied, no two authors are alike, but there were elements common to each one. Steve and Team Cap were the bad guys, they were in the wrong, they deserved to be outcast, tortured, arrested, executed and so on and so forth while Tony and Team Iron Man got to live as saviors and angels, beloved by the populace.

So, along comes To Trope Or Not To Trope, taking the premise of the Pro-Tony crowd and flipping it around. So it becomes:

Steve Rogers can do no wrong.

And well, the Pro-Tony fandom went completely nuts. Take a look at any comment section in the series, you'll see torrents of "fans" (and I hesitate to say that word because I don't really consider them to be such) claiming they're severely offended by the series' existence, and they'll cheerfully rail on the very things that they write about, all because the names are on opposite sides of the words. And frankly, their inability to realize their hypocrisy is kind of sad, but not unsurprising.

Because well, just because you look in a mirror doesn't mean you'll see anything.

03/16/2020 00:00:00

Understand your view on this though I think there is some confusion in your review as it talks about the pro tony community after saying steve can do no wrong

Just wondering since I donít know if your review is positive and negative for the series

03/16/2020 00:00:00

@Cornholio 4 - To clarify, I\'m talking about the inherent hypocrisy in the Pro-Tony Community, what with how they rail on gibbs for turning their own tropes against them.

That said, I lean towards a positive, but somewhat more neutral review of the series. I like it, though I\'m not as hardline as gibbs is when it comes to the matter of Tony.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

The reason why most don\'t like this series is because exactly what you said it is: Cap can do nothing wrong. They don\'t like that Cap is seen as a messiah that is never wrong, meanwhile everything Tony does is wrong and he\'s seen as the Devil himself. In other words, they don\'t like extremists.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Steve has some stubborn faults but I think they are few and they and the perceived faults are blown out of proportion by prop tony, Steve is the Boy Scout hero and tony is the well meaning but sarcastic jerk who canít help talking down to even his closest friends

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Megagutsman - I don\'t like the Second Chances, Chasing Ideal, Nobody\'s Heroes and all those other TIM series and stories that spout the message that Tony can do no wrong, and you don\'t see me railing on those authors, who are basically extremists, just in the opposite direction and way more popular.

What gives them the right to come over to TTONTT and scream like whiny children?

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Oh, so simply because you have decided to ignore those instead of pointing their flaws then you think that everybody should do the same? Okay.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Corn - The pro-Tony crowd blows everything out of proportion. Anyone so much as breathing funny in Tony\'s direction is worthy of a two-thousand word story about how evil the character is.

Mega - I\'m saying that its hilarious that the pro-Tony crowd writes all that crap, then bitch and whine when someone switches the placement of the words around. They can sure dish it out, and gleefully so at that, but they can\'t take their own medicine.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Problem is that said medicine doesn\'t need to exist. Why is it wrong that the Pro-Tony are being extremists meanwhile it doesn\'t matter if the Pro-Steve are also extremists? In other words, why are you ignoring how extremist a Pro-Steve can really be?. I will just throw a random guess here (and I may as well be wrong, too): You are a Pro-Steve that thinks that he can do no wrong. That\'s why you don\'t care if the Pro-Steve are being extremists.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

...you didn\'t read the original review, did you? I\'ve already said I\'m hardcore Team Cap.

And no, I don\'t think that Steve can do no wrong. I accept he has flaws and has done wrong. However, seeing as the Pro-Tony crowd is all too happy to rail on him day in and day out without acknowledging that he\'s done what is necessary to make up for those wrongs, my sympathy for their side has long since died out, especially after four years of seeing their damn \"Not Steve Friendly\" fics.

While I personally prefer to not treat Tony in the same manner as TTONTT has, I understand the desire to turn all of the Pro-Tony tropes on their head and give them a Pro-Steve spin, hence why I have no problem with the series. It\'s doing its job by giving the Pro-Tony crowd a taste of their own medicine.

So yes, I don\'t care. As far as I\'m concerned, the Pro-Tony extremist crowd has earned every word of TTONTT, and their inability to handle it is quite a hilarious irony, considering that we\'re the ones in the minority and they\'re the ones in the majority, and yet they feel like the persecuted minorities the moment we push back against their idiocy.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Ironically enough, this would make YOU an hypocrite. You say that they are wrong for jumping to extremes, basically deifying one character and vilifying another yet you celebrate when this goes against them. If you hate extremists then you should do so from both sides, not only from the side you are against. But what else can I expect from an admitted \"hardcore Team Cap\" fan (your words, not mine).

03/17/2020 00:00:00

You seem to be assuming that my musings on the irony of the majority acting like a persecuted minority means I stand against the extremist factions in the fandom. I do not, nor do I stand for them. I simply enjoy the hilarious irony of how the Pro-Tony supporters squirm when the shoe is on the other foot, when they\'re all too happy to stamp it down otherwise.

And it\'s clear to me from your defense of the other side that you\'re a Team Iron Man supporter. Nothing wrong with that, but it\'s clear that we won\'t be reaching an accords on this topic anytime soon, if ever. I think it\'d be in our best interests to call it quits on this line of discussion, it\'ll be better for everyone around.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

But the problem still persists, you laugh when the Pro-Tony get \"their own medicine\" but get angry when you, a Pro-Steve, get your own. That\'s why I say that is ironic what you say.

And no, me myself am more of a neutral dude. I think that both were in the wrong: Steve from hiding the truth from Tony and Tony from overreacting and not hearing what his friend and Bucky had to say first. But I can also see why they would do that: Steve was in negation himself and didn\'t want to accept the facts till it was too late and Tony tends to pay more attention to his hearth than to his brain, ergo, is perfectly logical that he would simply try to kill his parent\'s killer without giving him the chance to explain himself.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Eh, I can work with that.

And for the record, I\'m not as hardline as Gibbs is. I like Tony (movie Tony anyways, fanon Tony is more like a Mean Girls parody) so I don\'t treat him as harshly as Gibbs does.

I don\'t actually get angry when the Pro-Tony crowd does their thing. After four years of that stuff, you learn to just roll your eyes and move on. Best to accept it\'s tripe written by angry horny teenagers and leave it at that.

And like I said, I acknowledge that Steve did wrong hiding the truth from Tony, but it is true that Tony overreacted by trying to kill both him and Bucky. But at the end, they reconciled so it\'s all rather academic at this point. Water under the bridge and all that.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

Eh, I only said that because (and I noticed this after seeing your replies to the other two reviews) you seem to be the kind of person that works under the logic of \"an eye for an eye\". That is a terrible logic. Simply because there are people that are extremists and tend to badmouth others it doesn\'t make it fine for you to badmouth them.

And I wouldn\'t say that Tony and Steve \"reconciled\" per se, is much more like if they understood the extenuating circumstances and decided to bury the hatchet for the sake of the universe.

03/17/2020 00:00:00

I have a similar opinion to void but I think if team iron man wants to write their own team cap bashing stories then they should be able to do some even if we donít Like them but on the same token us team cap should be able to write our own fics

03/18/2020 00:00:00

I mean, at the end of the day they are just fics. If you don\'t like them, then don\'t read them, is that simple. Void is taking things way too personally.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Well itís hard to want to look at the mcu fics and see that thereís a majority that just bashes on team cap

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Yeah, I agree. But they are still fics. You know the old saying: \"Sticks and stones can hurt my bones, but for jerk words deaf ears (or blind eyes this time around, I suppose)\". They can only be annoying if you let them be annoying.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Still remember very early in those days when the team cap tag was filled with those team iron man stories as well and looking for the counterpoint team cap stories is fun salt for us; they can be annoying if we keep seeing them on the sites

03/18/2020 00:00:00

I\'m gonna go out on a limb and say there\'s so many fics propping up Tony and tearing down Steve because the MCU writers prop up Steve too much. He\'s a good person and a Super Soldier but I personally fell they focus too much on the \"Super\" and not enough on the \"Soldier\". For example, that in Siberia, Tony was fighting to kill while Steve and Bucky were just trying to subdue him. Considering both super soldiers are supposed to be at the peak of what a human could achieve, they have no business winning against an Iron-man who legit wants them dead. Steve\'s certainly physically capable but his tactical mind is supposed to be his biggest asset (behind maybe his magic frisbee). But the Russos admitted to making him stronger multiple times because they felt Steve was \"overshadowed\" by the Avengers who are more powerful than him (Thor, Hulk, and Iron-man).

Similarly, Steve slightly shifted Mjolnir in Ao U, suggesting he was almost worthy of it but not quite, while Vision handled it no problem. Then the Russos declare that Vision could only use it because he was a newborn and Steve could always use Mjolnir but \"pretended he couldn\'t so as not to ruin the fun\". To me at least, that feels like taking an interesting character with flaws and weaknesses and putting him up on a pedestal \"Oh, he can fight better against Thanos than Iron-man, Thor, or Hulk once he has Mjolnir, which he can use at least as well as Thor can\".

Lastly, no one ever addresses that Steve tried to kill Tony in Ao U on the word of a Hydra member who was trying to kill them only a day or two prior (throwing the shield at Tony because Wanda said Tony\'s \"totally making another Ultron\").

That\'s my take on why there\'s so many fics tearing down Steve. Personally, I\'m an Iron-man fan because I love that he is a techy superhero who creates his \"powers\".

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Tony was downplaying his abilities during the fight at first form what I hear because he wanted to kill Bucky with his bare hands and so when he finally got real the suit was badly damaged

Steve didnít try to kill Tony at all; he was just trying to stop him from putting the dangerous mind stone in another robot which would be seen as Tony repeating his last big mistake that he just made a few days ago

I like Tony but I feel that people donít get that Steve really is a good natured nice guy

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Throwing a hunk of metal at someone\'s head/chest is an attempt to kill them.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

If you are talking about the shield, I donít think it has ever been used to try and kill someone in the mcu, he uses it to knock people out all the time in the movies

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Even then, throwing a shield (and more one made of fricking vibranium) at somebody that doesn\'t expect it isn\'t a good replacement to talking it out.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Anyone wouldnít be in a good mood to want to talk it out with someone when they are in a dire situation and it looks like the person responsible is about to repeat the very same mistake that started the whole mess

03/18/2020 00:00:00

I don\'t like Team Tony or Team Steve fanfics like this because they\'re little more than cheer-leading for one and character derailment for the other, but at the end of the day two sets of DILP fan-fiction is better than one since no one is left out.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

That shield has cleaved into multiple Iron Legion bots and Ultron drones. If you throw that at someone, you at the very least don\'t care if they die.

Also, my favorite Team Tony fics were \"The War Is Far From Over Now\" for Tony accidentally taking over the world and being completely oblivious to the whole thing, and \"Enough Rope\" for Tony pulling off being a Magnificent Bastard. Dude not only got everyone on his side, he used Steve to silence most of his critics, and got Steve and Wanda sent to different worlds and Bucky sent to a country Tony\'s not likely to ever exist all while making everyone else think it was all their idea to begin with.

Other\'s like \"Tony\'s Girl\" go much too far. Wanda is one of the Avengers I like least and I spent half the story feeling bad for her.

03/18/2020 00:00:00

Corn - I remember those days. They sucked. I got so tired of the deluge of Pro-Tony stories that I took a break from the MCU fandom between Civil War and Ragnarok. Seems to have settled down a bit, enough that I don\'t see those damn things every single page. It\'s every other one now, and only one out of the whole page.

And uh, Steve\'s a soldier. To say that he doesn\'t try to kill people is like saying a firefighter doesn\'t fight fires.

Mega - Tony said \"resentment is corrosive, and I hate it\", and he and Steve put the whole Civil War matter to rest, which is basically reconciling. It\'s not the \"I\'m sorry I love you let\'s hug it out\" rom-com styled reconciliation, but it\'s still reconciliation.

And I wouldn\'t say I take things personally. I\'ve long since accepted that side of the fandom is gonna do their own thing, and as long as they don\'t come on by and mess with my side of the fandom (which they do, which is why we\'re having this discussion in the first place) I don\'t really care what they do. Eye-roll, scoff and move on.

Sinful - I always thought the deluge of Pro-Tony stories is the product of Civil War slanting the argument in favor of Tony. He gets the most sympathetic scenes in the movie and the Anti-Accords side doesn\'t get enough screentime to even things up there. And of course RDJ has been with the MCU longer than Chris has so a lot of those writers grew up with his movies.

03/19/2020 00:00:00

I donít think Steve tries to kill people if he can help it as most of the time he tries to knock people out on screen, the most lethal I remember him being is using guns I. The first avenger montage

03/19/2020 00:00:00

Am sorry but a vibranium shield does count as a deadly weapon. And if he wanted to stop Tony there were better ways than to attack him.

03/19/2020 00:00:00

Wondering how as I think Steve wanted to stop him as quickly as possible before he could put the mind stone in

03/19/2020 00:00:00

A simple \"Stop!\" would have been more than enough. Being offensive is not always the solution.

03/19/2020 00:00:00

Who is to say that Tony would even attempt to listen and again I donít think Steve anyone would be in the right mind to try and talk it out when they learn what is happening

03/19/2020 00:00:00

You know Void, I can see that, but I felt like Civil War and the follow up movies kinda stated Steve was right. (Correct me if I\'m wrong, I only saw Civil War once) Tony hears about Steve breaking the others out and ignores it. T\'Challa and Natasha both switch to Team Cap. Hope all but states she\'d have been on Team Cap as well. Scott (who violated his parole and got into a huge fight causing millions in property damage in Berlin) gets off with house arrest, while the one FBI agent trying to explain why \"he\'s being mean to Scott\" is incredibly awkward and makes a terrible argument. And T\'Challa violates the same Accords about two weeks after signing them when he tears up Busan in pursuit of Klaue, without repercussion. Lastly, Vision leaves Tony to go live with Wanda.

Personally, it feels like every movie post-Civil War said \"Yeah, screw the accords.\" Granted, I haven\'t really checked post dates of Pro-Tony fics vs when various movies come out.

03/19/2020 00:00:00

Wasnít really parole as at first he served his sentinel, the house arrest was his parole; tchalla never ready signed the accords as an enhanced and never really cared for either conflict, only working with Tony because they were both trying to catch Bucky; plus the stuff tchalla has been doing is what wkanada had been doing in secrets since what I think is itís founding

03/19/2020 00:00:00

I assumed T\'challa signed as (again from what I remember), his father helped write the accords. But either way, regardless of whether he signed or not, his actions in Busan should have had some repercussions, even if only South Korea telling him off for it, given what he did was hardly secret.

03/24/2020 00:00:00

Both fics suck. And Gibbs genuinely thinks tony is Satan.


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