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01/25/2018 07:08:36 •••

God Mode Sue-perman

I'm a big fan of superhero comics, but I just can't get behind this one.

From what I've seen, Superman is a Flying Brick, with an immense Superpower Lottery at his disposal. Heat vision, cold breath, immunity to bullets, X-ray vision, microscopic vision, super speed… at what point should the writers give up and just hand him absolute power?

Now, when it comes to weaknesses, this irks me even more. Take Superman out of the comics, and put him in the real world.

  • A world where kryptonite's closest equivalent is a noble gas in the atmosphere, and is chemically inert.
    • Fun fact: Superman's only weak to kryptonite because the voice actor for a cartoon was sick.
  • Magic doesn't exist, obviously.
  • We can't take a fight with Superman in range of a red sun.
  • Short of a homemade railgun, the average human wouldn't be able to hit Superman hard enough to hurt him.
  • Dropping a nuke to hurt Superman would be tantamount to using a minigun, with a flamethrower and grenade launcher duct-taped to it, to hunt rabbits; it's way too much, and will destroy everything else in the crossfire.
  • If Superman fails, he could just zoom around the world, and reset time to Set Right What Once Went Wrong.

So when it comes to weaknesses, the only thing that would hurt him in the real world is high-pitched frequencies.

Sure, Superman inspires the best in us, and is the quintessential example of the American way, but to me, his powers just make him seem like a God-Mode Sue.

01/17/2018 00:00:00

I would say the point of Superman is that whilst he is impervious, the world around him isn\'t, and his major dilemma is that he can\'t cure cancer, respond to every incident, or help everyone. On top of that, there is a question of whether he should even be helping everyone all the time. There\'s a good comic in which some aliens take Superman to one-side and criticise him over it, as there really are scenarios he should leave to humans to sort out (political ones), otherwise they become complacent, selfish and dependant on him. In Red Son, it speculates Superman would become a total fascist to succeed at taking control over everyone\'s safety.

That said, the golden age was always finding daft scenarios to deprive Superman of his power. One of his enemies is a Rumpelstiltskin clone who can magic anything in and out of existence. In another scenario, Superman builds a defensive spaceship so strong even he can\'t break it (figure that one out), and it inevitably gets used on him.

01/17/2018 00:00:00

What super hero ISNT a total god if you dropped them into the real world? Batman is capable of fighting off entire hordes of armed assailants with his bare hands, when in reality the most trained martial artists in the world will tell you to run from a fight against just two people. He\'s a super genius with skill in literally ever scientific field and also runs An amazingly rich company that lets him also act as a genius inventor on the side. The Flash runs st light speed and punch people with the force of a super nova. Aquaman can survive crushing ocean depths, lift oil tankers, is completely immune to bullets, and has literally no weakness at all.

And also, the \'fly around the earth\' thing was only in the movies.

01/17/2018 00:00:00

I\'m with Litle Wiggle on this one. In his own setting, not only does Superman has weaknesses, but plenty of his enemies are as powerful as he is, if not more, so yeah, not a God-Mode Sue. ESPECIALLY when there are tons of characters in fiction who have no weakness at all besides some of their enemies being stronger than them (*cough* Goku *cough*).

01/18/2018 00:00:00

@Theokal3: Saying there are other characters just as powerful, if not moreso, doesn't change the fact that Supes is OP. Which is why it takes such extreme power to even present him with a challenge, let alone, an actual threat.

What super hero ISN'T a total god if you dropped them into the real world?

Scott Summers. Take away his visor and he's effectively rendered powerless, because he knows what'll happen if he opens his eyes without it. It was how Ororo forced him to forfeit during a Danger Room session and Magneto has also used the same gambit against him.

He's only said to be an Olympic class athlete without his powers, so he can be injured, bleed and die just as easily as a normal human would.

01/19/2018 00:00:00

Saying there are other characters just as powerful, if not moreso, doesn't change the fact that Supes is OP. Which is why it takes such extreme power to even present him with a challenge, let alone, an actual threat.

I'm trying to argue he is not a God-Mode-Sue, not that he's not OP. There's a subtle but huge difference, which is context: if your opponents are just as OP if not more than you are, then you are NOT at a blatant advantage against them and it still feels like the character can be in danger. Check the the trope page for God-Mode-Sue, it's made very clear a character qualify as such only if no other character, event or threat can give them a challenge, which blatantly isn't the case for Superman, as he gets in trouble regularly and does fight opponents who make it look like he could lose.

Also, unlike a certain Saiyen, villains who clearly are less powerful than Superman, such as Luthor, have still managed to be a threat to him without getting ridiculously overpowered themselves.

01/19/2018 00:00:00

@Theokal3: True, he can and has been challenged and defeated on numerous occasions. But, by our standards, he's still god-moded. It's like his creators gave him every superpower they could think of, shy of ESP and telekinesis. If it weren't for the existence of Kryptonite most villains wouldn't stand a chance against him.

The only reason Lex presents a threat is because Clark won't put a stop to it. A fact which Lex has pointed out himself.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

@Miinu

Well, you still have to get the visor off of him, and considering he's capable of wiping out skyscrapers by looking at them and mentally calculating extremely complicated trajectories and ricochets for bouncing his beams around to hit specific targets, that's easier said than done. And he's an expert martial artists, when the writers actually remember that part.

While Scott would obviously be easier to kill than most DC heroes, he's still capable of wrecking cities like a one man army.

But, well, my point was more that judging the quality of super hero stories by how tough to kill they'd be in the real world is kind of a flimsy argument. Or in this case, judging ONE hero by real world standards, and acting as if he's the only one who'd be invincible, then saying it makes his fictional stories bad.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

True, he can and has been challenged and defeated on numerous occasions. But, by our standards, he's still god-moded. It's like his creators gave him every superpower they could think of, shy of ESP and telekinesis. If it weren't for the existence of Kryptonite most villains wouldn't stand a chance against him.

Yes, by our standards, he is a god. But he is not a god-mode sue, because as explained above, that trope depends entirely on the context. Again, Batman is rather limited for his setting, and he still has been played as a God-Mode Sue regardless when writers exaggerated his Crazy Prepared factor.

And no offense intended complaining about Superman being a Physical God is a bit ridiculous, because, well, that's the entire point of his character: being a god-like hero living among men. It's like complaining about Batman having no powers, or the X-Men being constantly used as a metaphor for racism: it's a big part of what he is, a big theme in his stories, and a major reason why he is a cool character. Yes, that means he can be turned into a Boring Invincible Hero if poorly written; but that's not a flaw. If anything, it makes him more interesting (if challenging) to write in my opinion, because it requires you to find creative ways to put him in danger.

The only reason Lex presents a threat is because Clark won't put a stop to it. A fact which Lex has pointed out himself.

No, that's the reason Lex is staying. You are acting as if the only way to deal with Luthor would be to kill him. But if he really was dangerous only because of this, he would just be annoyance because there are multiple ways Superman could defeat him and stop his tasks without resorting to murder. And yet, Luthor has managed to be a threat primarily because he is crafty and knows how to use what he has at his disposal.

And he's an expert martial artists, when the writers actually remember that part.

He is?!

But, well, my point was more that judging the quality of super hero stories by how tough to kill they'd be in the real world is kind of a flimsy argument. Or in this case, judging ONE hero by real world standards, and acting as if he's the only one who'd be invincible, then saying it makes his fictional stories bad.

This. Again, God-Mode-Sue depends on the context. It's a bit of a weak argument to complain about how a character would be invicible in the real world when he is not the real world. Being too powerful for real-world opponents is the entire reason Supervillain even were invented.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

@Theokal3: I'm not saying he's a god mode sue, I'm saying that he's god-moded period. The fact that it's intentional on the writers part doesn't change that.

Saitima is intended to satirize OP superheroes like Superman, but he's still boring to watch, 'cuz nothing really effects him. It's the expected outcome most would envision when faced with a character who's seemingly invulnerable to everything that's thrown at them, who can then easily annihilate whatever is foolish enough to oppose them.

As for Lex, Supes could have eneded their conflict decadeds ago, but he won't do it. All his intellect, wealth, and resources wouldn't save him if Clark wanted him dead and he knows it. Lex flat-out admitted it to Superman himself, when he finally got fed up and asked Superman why he wouldn't just get it over with.

Killing Lex would not be murder by any stretch. The man's repeatedly proven himself to be credible threat and a menace to Metropolis, and the rest of the world. Each time Clark spares him, he's putting countless citizens at risk, because he knows Lex will continue to do as he's always done. Which Lex also pointed out in the aforementioned scene (which is why he asked the question in the first place).

@LittleWiggle: Scott's only a black belt in Akido and Judo, but normal humans can still match him in that regard. But yes, getting the visor off would be the hard part.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

I'm not saying he's a god mode sue, I'm saying that he's god-moded period. The fact that it's intentional on the writers part doesn't change that.

Then please don't say God-moded, that leads to confusion. And I said sooner I did not deny he was OP, so really how do we even have a disagreement here?

Saitima is intended to satirize OP superheroes like Superman, but he's still boring to watch, 'cuz nothing really effects him. It's the expected outcome most would envision when faced with a character who's seemingly invulnerable to everything that's thrown at them, who can then easily annihilate whatever is foolish enough to oppose them.

While I personally don't like Saitama, and agree he IS OP (because unlike Superman, the very concept of his power requires that he one-shot everyone), it's completely different for the simple fact he is a Comically Invincible Hero; the fact he is so unbeatable is played for laugh, and the enjoyment of the show is (I think) supposed to come not from concern about if he will win or not, but from being amused about the ridiculous it leads to. But I'll avoid elaborating further, since having never read his manga, I feel unqualified to give a proper analysis.

But regardless, that brings me back to my previous point: how is Superman being so powerful a flaw? Again, yeah, that can make him boring in the hand of a bad writer. But a good writer finds way around him being so powerful, and get creative with it. Creating enemies stronger or who cannot be defeated by brute force. Or, you know, just write stories about Superman's Character Development. There are tons of ways to make Superman interesting. If you really think Superman is boring because of how powerful he is, then you are... narrow-minded - again, no offense intended.

As for Lex, Supes could have eneded their conflict decadeds ago, but he won't do it. All his intellect, wealth, and resources wouldn't save him if Clark wanted him dead and he knows it. Lex flat-out admitted it to Superman himself, when he finally got fed up and asked Superman why he wouldn't just get it over with.

...Except that would still be a moral defeat for Superman, because he values life more than anything and doesn't want to kill. The audience has every reason to be concerned about Superman resisting the temptation to kill Luthor, because then he wouldn't be Superman. The storyline against the Elite makes a great job at showing why Superman's no-kill rule is so essential: if he allows himself to kill, nothing prevent him from doing with everyone, and then he becomes the villain. Again, you gotta see it in a way where the story can't always be solved just by defeating the villain physically.

Killing Lex would not be murder by any stretch. The man's repeatedly proven himself to be credible threat and a menace to Metropolis, and the rest of the world. Each time Clark spares him, he's putting countless citizens at risk, because he knows Lex will continue to do as he's always done. Which Lex also pointed out in the aforementioned scene (which is why he asked the question in the first place).

Ah, yeah, that whole "not killing villain is stupid" argument again. Even admitting the idea that this wouldn't legally be murder, here's a scoop: that's still killing. That's still taking a life. And for all the reasons I explained above, Superman puts just as many people in danger, if not more, by abandoning his no-killing rule, because then nothing prevents him from just mudering everyone who disagree with him, and then he would be a much bigger threat than Luthor. There's a reason almost all stories about an evil Superman start with him abandoning that rule. Less than the legal aspect, it's the moral restrain that's important here.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

And I said sooner I did not deny he was OP, so really how do we have a disagreement here?

Because god-moding and OP aren't mutually exclusive, the two often overlap. That's why there's been countless videos and forum debates on whether Superman is "too powerful" to be interesting.

how is Superman being so powerful a flaw?

Lack of tension, for starters. Does the reader really have to concern themselves whether he'll win, or if he'll survive, when they know he's nigh invulnerable? Including when he's fighting others others like himself.

Contrast that with the Avatar (either Aang, or Korra) who's also a physical god. Yet, for all their power, they're still human. Nor are they so overwhelmingly powerful that the rest of humanity is defenseless against them. Aang and Korra can both be injured and killed just as easily as anyone else and it doesn't take extreme power to do it. The series even made it a point to show how previous Avatars have died and Aang and Korra both came close to joining them at different points in their respective journies.

There's also the matter of relateability. I doubt anyone can identify with "a god among men," because they don't know what that's like. How can they, when they'll never have that kind of power (like this, for example)?

Ah, yeah, the whole not killing the villain is stupid argument again. Even admitting the idea that this wouldn't legally be murder, it's still killing. That's still taking a life.

And how many more could he potentially save by taking that one? Ever hear of "the greater good"? I have a hard time believing that simply taking one life would start Superman down a path of darkness from which there's no turning back, when plenty of other heroes have been forced to kill and stayed true to themselves and their beliefs.

Korra even (reluctantly) killed her own uncle, Unalaq. Once it became clear that he was hellbent on plunging the planet into 10,000 years of darkness and was beyond reasoning with, she dropped the hammer on him and no one called her a killer for it. Everyone understood why it had to be done, they accepted it, and Korra remained a heroine.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

Because god-moding and OP aren't mutually exclusive, the two often overlap. That's why there's been countless videos and forum debates on whether Superman is "too powerful" to be interesting.

Oh, Christ, I thought these debates were dead. Writers had time to prove this wasn't true. And sorry, but then you'll have to define what you mean by god-mode, because if you don't mean neither "God-Mode sue" nor "OP", then what the heck do you mean by this expression?

Lack of tension, for starters. Does the reader really have to concern themselves whether he'll win, or if he'll survive, when they know he's nigh invulnerable? Including when he's fighting others others like himself.

... I just spent several paragraphs explaining you how you could easily create tension around him without having him actually be in danger of dying. Now if you're just gonna ignore my arguments to repeat the same things, I don't really see the point of continuing this conversation.

Contrast that with the Avatar (either Aang, or Korra) who's also a physical god. Yet, for all their power, they're still human. Nor are they so overwhelmingly powerful that the rest of humanity is defenseless against them. Aang and Korra can both be injured and killed just as easily as anyone else and it doesn't take extreme power to do it. The series even made it a point to show how previous Avatars have died and Aang and Korra both came close to joining them at different points in their respective journies.

... Except we still know they won't die (at least not out of flashbacks) because they are the heroes, and this isn't friggin' game of thrones where you can expect The Hero Die. Plot Armor exists and we all know it's applying.

Also, an Avatar still has very little chance to be defeated by a regular bender, let alone a regular human, unless he is very inexperienced (like Aang was at first). Korra almost never really was in danger in her season unless she was fighting insanely powerful opponents like Amon or the Red Lotus, and the few times where regular opponents caused her trouble, I was less feeling tension and more groaning in annoyance about when she was gonna put her shit together and actually fight seriously (*cough* Kuvira *cough*). But eh, for that last part, that's just me.

There's also the matter of relateability. I doubt anyone can identify with "a god among men," because they don't know what that's like. How can they, when they'll never have that kind of power (like this, for example)?

Oh, right that very argument that is adressed in the YMMV page, actually; Superman isn't reliable despite being pretty much The Everyman with ordinary parents because he has superhuman powers no regular human could ever have; unlike Batman, who is more reliable by being a regular human despite having more skill and money than any human could realistically hope to have! Or Spider-Man, who is possibly considered the most reliable superhero ever even though no human could hope to have the ability to cling to wall and jump to insane high! See a pattern, here? Again, Imagining yourself with this kind of power you'd never have in real life is a big part of his appeal. If you need your hero to be just as vulnerable as you to identify with him, then superhero comics aren't the right media for you.

And how many more could he potentially save by taking that one? Ever hear of "the greater good"?

Yes, actually, usually as an excuse used by standard Well Intentioned Extremists villains. I'm surprised you don't seem to realize that, seeing how you keep using Legend Of Korra as an exemple, a show where almost every single major antagonist is that type of villain.

I have a hard time believing that simply taking one life would start Superman down a path of darkness from which there's no turning back, when plenty of other heroes have been forced to kill and stayed true to themselves and their beliefs.

Simple, actually.

One, Superman can indeed kill Luthor on the reasoning that he can do it "just once", because Luthor is the worst guy he met and that justifies him. Except once he's killed Luthor, a new villain will become the worst, forcing him to move the rule on that one. Then another. And so one, until it no longer is an exception.

Two, the very fact Superman is so powerful is what makes it ultra-scary when he does it. Because on the one chance he does snap and go off that dark path, it'd be near-impossible to stop him. So yeah, even if it's not a 100% chance, it's still very dangerous. Hence the importance of Superman not killing.

Korra even (reluctantly) killed her own uncle, Unalaq. Once it became clear that he was hellbent on plunging the planet into 10,000 years of darkness and was beyond reasoning with, she dropped the hammer on him and no one called her a killer for it. Everyone understood why it had to be done, they accepted it, and Korra remained a heroine.

Yes, because Korra isn't nearly as unstoppable as Superman and could actually be restrained (if difficultly) if she went insane. Also, Avatars never had a no-kill rule (Aang did, but that was part of his Air Nomad philosophy, not because he was an Avatar). And it's really debatable if Unalaq still even qualified as human when Korra "killed" him, given he had turned into some kind of amorphous dark god (a part I still don't get to this day, by the way). And finally, there's the matter killing Unalaq really was the only option at this point, because he couldn't be restrained or stripped of his powers (unlike Superman, who always can easily stop Luthor's action without killing him and by just sending him to jail). Stop trying to compare two heroes who really have completely different contexts and and characters.

01/20/2018 00:00:00

if you don't mean either "God-Mode Sue" nor "OP", then what the heck do you mean by this expression?

A character who is so overwhelmingly powerful that little, if anything, presents a credible threat to them; unless they're met with equal or greater force.

Ask yourself: "Does the average human, or villain, stand a chance against Superman without the aid of Kryptonite?" Hell no. It'd be pointless for them to even try, just like in that first video I linked to. He laughed off everything Hal and Bruce threw at him and both of them knew they were screwed once he started to become serious.

In the other, he used himself as a shield against a mini-gun without flinching and followed that up by taking a shot directly to the eye. It was a waste of time and ammunition. When Laturn rings, mini-guns, and damn near everything else simply bounces off him, in addition to his overwhelming strength, speed, and numerous other abilities, that is what I'd consider being "god-moded".

I just spent several paragraphs explaining how you could easily create tension around him without having him be in danger of dying.

How do you get tension from character development? We already know he can't be everywhere and that he can't save everyone, but that isn't the same thing. At most, I'd be concerned for whomever he's trying to save, except more often than not, he makes it in time.

Yes, actually it's usually used as an excuse by standard Well Intentioned Extremist villains.

It's more often used by heroes. Cyclops is a firm believer in serving the greater good and he's no one's villain.

Also, an Avatar has very little chance to be defeated by a regular bender, let alone a regular human, unless he is very inexperienced

Aang was defeated and captured by the Yu Yan archers (non-benders), he failed to defeat Combustion Man twice and had to flee both times, Korra was defeated twice by chi blockers (non-benders again), was also defeated by her uncle during their first two battles, and she lost soundly to Kuvira at the battle for Xiao Fu.

So yes, the series has repeatedly shown that non-benders and regular benders can defeat the Avatar multiple times.

the very fact that Superman is so powerful is what makes it ultra-scary when he does it. Because on the one chance he does snap, and go off on that dark path it'd be near impossible to stop him.

So you're basically suggesting he's emotionally unstable that killing one person, regardless of justification, is enough to make him lose it and turn evil...? I'd say that's selling him short.

Other heroes have done it without turning evil. Korra, Cloud Strife, Link, etc. have all killed their enemies at one point or another and not one of them turned to villainy. Each one did it out of necessity to serve the greater good and no one thought less of them for it.

01/21/2018 00:00:00

A character who is so overwhelmingly powerful that little, if anything, presents a credible threat to them; unless they're met with equal or greater force. Ask yourself: "Does the average human, or villain, stand a chance against Superman without the aid of Kryptonite?" Hell no. It'd be pointless for them to even try, just like in that first video I linked to. He laughed off everything Hal and Bruce threw at him and both of them knew they were screwed once he started to become serious. In the other, he used himself as a shield against a mini-gun without flinching and followed that up by taking a shot directly to the eye. It was a waste of time and ammunition. When Laturn rings, mini-guns, and damn near everything else simply bounces off him, in addition to his overwhelming strength, speed, and numerous other abilities, that is what I'd consider being "god-moded".

Again, I fail to see how that's different from OP. Also, I bring you back to my statement regarding the Avatar: no way a character of average power would present a threat to an Avatar unless he or she is really inexperienced or weakened due to some poison.

How do you get tension from character development? We already know he can't be everywhere and that he can't save everyone, but that isn't the same thing. At most, I'd be concerned for whomever he's trying to save, except more often than not, he makes it in time.

You mean, like how we know more often than not a hero won't die no matter how vulnerable he is? Tension can be made from seeing him deal with the issues and seeing how he'll be able to save as many people as possible, or seeing how he can defeat a seemingly unstoppable villain. Or if he'll succumb to temptation and give up his morals. And of course, it comes from the risk he might die when he is fighting someone stronger than he is, which actually happened with Doomsday. Again, you're being narrow-minded here.

It's more often used by heroes. Cyclops is a firm believer in serving the greater good and he's no one's villain.

To you maybe; later comics seriously had him on the verge of turning evil (though I'll give you that, there was that time where he was treated as vile in-universe for a stupid reason). Based on what I read, his whole being ready to harm people for the greater good in later issues has make him thread into dangerous territory.

But regardless, okay, let's admit your idea that killing Luthor is a good thing because it'd save millions. Then why blame Superman for not killing him? He has been in jail multiple times by now, why not blame the government for just executing him already and put an end to his atrocities in a 100% legal way? Of course, you could argue that the authorities are incompetent and won't do it, and as such Superman should. Except that if he does it in THIS context, it actually becomes murder, because it was the authorities' job to kill Luthor, not Superman's. And if Superman doesn't accept to follow the authorities, nothing can keep him in check and people can no longer be sure they are more or less safe from him. Again, this is a complex situation. The whole point of Superman is that he has all that power and could easily turn into a tyrant, yet is trying the hardest he can not to become one and keep a human mindset. Which is why him going Judge Jury And Executioner would be bad, more so than any other hero.

Aang was defeated and captured by the Yu Yan archers (non-benders), he failed to defeat Combustion Man twice and had to flee both times, Korra was defeated twice by chi blockers (non-benders again), was also defeated by her uncle during their first two battles, and she lost soundly to Kuvira at the battle for Xiao Fu. So yes, the series has repeatedly shown that non-benders and regular benders can defeat the Avatar multiple times.

Which is why I said "unless she is very inexperienced". Aang had little to no experience when he was captured and defeated by the Yu Yan Archers and could barely control his Avatar state at the time. While he was a bit more experienced when facing Combustion Man, he still lacked one element and didn't have proper access to the Avatar State, and Combustion Man hardly qualify as "a regular Bender" anyway, considering he is powerful enough to take on multiple Benders at the same time (do I really need to remind you having the same powers than him was enough for Pl'i to be considered a One-Woman Army along with the other Red Lotus members?). Similarly, while Korra was better-trained than Aang was at the time she faced the Chi-Blockers, she had very little real fight experience, couldn't access the Avatar state, and once again it's pretty ridiculous to argue Chi-Blocker are "regular non-benders" when they are specifically trained to be be a threat to Benders.

As for Kuvira, I already mentioned it, and this is the main reason this duel was painfully annoying to me: the ONLY reason Kuvira even could defeat Korra was because Korra was weakened by the whole Mercury poisoning and far from being at full strength, and the brief use of the Avatar state makes it blatant that had Korra been at full power, that arrogant little bitch would have died in five seconds (Kuvira, not Korra). So yeah, this example is about as good as me arguing Luthor was able to defeat Superman in a straight fight using a Kryptonite armor.

So you're basically suggesting he's emotionally unstable that killing one person, regardless of justification, is enough to make him lose it and turn evil...? I'd say that's selling him short.

No, if he was he already would have killed. I am arguing that he is so powerful that his non-killing rule pretty much is the only guarrantee he isn't a danger to regular people. Most people with this level of power would turn power-mad no matter how sane they initially were, and the fact he is humble enough to still consider himself a normal human and refuse to break human laws is part of what makes him great.

Other heroes have done it without turning evil. Korra, Cloud Strife, Link, etc. have all killed their enemies at one point or another and not one of them turned to villainy. Each one did it out of necessity to serve the greater good and no one thought less of them for it.

Only opponent Korra did directly kill was Unalaq, and as I said it's very debatable if he qualified as human at that point. Also, necessary is a key point here: Unalaq needed to die because there was no way he could be restrained or sent to jail. This isn't the case for Luthor; even if he constantly escape, Superman always has the possibility to stop him non-lethally by sending him to jail (even if temporarily- and again, if Luthor really needs to die, that's the government's job, not Superman's). Notice how Korra didn't kill Kuvira despite all the things she did, and she was merely arrested.

As for the others.... I don't know Final Fantasy well enough to be sure, but based on what I heard, Cloud essentially is a terrorist (or freedom fighter) struggling against an oppressive regime, so law isn't really an important factor for him, and Link killed almost exclusively Always Chaotic Evil monsters who are perfectly legal to kill, in a setting where I'm not even sure there's a law against killign.

Again, context changes everything: I'm not arguing that all heroes should adhere to a Thou Shall Not Kill rule, I'm arguing it's important specifically for some characters, Superman included. It's like the Secret Identity trope: for many superheroes, it no longer serves much purpose to have one, such as Captain America (who has no official identity anymore anyway) or Iron Man (who enjoys the spotlight). But Batman, for exemple, still needs it, because the fact his opponents never really know who he is and what he is about helps maintain his reputation as The Dreaded (something very well-shown in the Nolan trilogy) and prevent villains from attacking on his loved ones or his company. And Superman needs it because unlike Iron Man, he doesn't like being constantly seen as a god by everyone and needs to feel human every now and then, which is the reason he likes being Clark Kent.

Both these characters have good reasons to stick to this trope despite it being unfitted for so many other characters; this is the same for Superman's Thou Shall Not Kill rule.

01/21/2018 00:00:00

You mean, like how we know that a hero won't die no matter how vulnerable he is?

Should I mention how many series subvert that expectation?

  • Robotech became infamous for it back when it originally aired during the 80's, because it killed off multiple main characters.
  • RWBY shocked its audience by killing off Pyrrha (a main character) and Penny, who everyone thought was being set up to play an important role later.
  • Key The Metal Idol nearly killed off its entire cast including: heroes, villains, and main characters alike. No exceptions.

And during the series finale for The Legend of Korra, many fans thought Mako was gonna pull a heroic sacrifice to shutdown the Colossus, just like Asami's father did.

Then why blame Superman for not killing him? He has been in jail multiple times by now, why not blame the government for just not executing him and putting an end to his atrocities in a 100% legal way?

1. Because the government is never going to do it and Lex knows it. He has a high-powered legal team and enough people on his payroll that he'll be a free man in weeks, if not days later. A fact which Superman is well aware of since Lex has bragged about it.

2. Superman has the means and moral justification to end Lex and, unlike the people on Lex's payroll, Superman's complicity can't be bought. By now, he should know jailing Lex is as pointless as sending the Joker back to Arkham Asylum, because both of them will continue escape their confinement and endanger the populace.

Which is why I said "unless she is very inexperienced."

The Avatar is not unbeatable, regardless of their level of experience. Mai and Ty Lee were non-benders and both of them gave Aang and his friends trouble. So did the Dai Li.

Korra's inexperience didn't stop her from nearly defeating Tarrlok when they fought at City Hall, until he resorted to bloodbending to save himself. And in one of Brian and Mike's tweets, they said Kuvira is just that good because she's a master level earth and metalbender.

As a reminder: Kuvira was formerly the guard captain at Xiao Fu. During her tenure, she fought Zaheer and stalled him long enough for Su and Lin to save Korra. Three years later, her fighting ability had improved considerably and she was the Commander of the new Earth Empire.

the ONLY reason Kuvira could even defeat Korra was because Korra was weakened by the whole Mercury poisoning and far from being at full strength

The poison was completely removed by that point, Jinora confirmed it when Opal asked whether the poison was what was slowing Korra down during the match. Not that it mattered since Kuvira was still able to match Korra even at her best.

I don't know Final Fantasy well enough to be sure, but from what I heard, Cloud is essentially a terrorist (or freedom fighter)

Not quite. Cloud was a military grunt, turned mercenary for hire who loaned his services to AVALANCHE (an eco-terrorist group). Except Cloud literally wasn't himself, due to suffering extreme emotional trauma. As himself (after recovering his true memories), he's the last surviving member of SOLDIER's 1st class division (Shinra's private elite military unit) - except he doesn't work for Shinra.

Link killed almost exclusively Always Chaotic Evil monsters who are perfectly legal to kill

Link has killed other humans to. In Breath of the Wild, the Yiga Clan are former members of the Sheikah who have sided with Ganon. So each time he mows any of them down, he's killing humans. The Gerudo are human to, which includes Ganondorf.

I'm not arguing that all heroes should adhere to a Thou Shall Not Kill rule, I'm arguing it's important specifically for some characters, Superman included.

And I'm not saying he should simply cast it aside and start killing all villains, but each time he spares that particular one, he's giving him the chance to endanger countless lives again.

He needs to ask himself which matters more: his no kill rule, or enabling Lex to possibly kill the citizens he's sworn himself to protect?

01/21/2018 00:00:00

Should I mention how many series subvert that expectation? Robotech became infamous for it back when it originally aired during the 80's, because it killed off multiple main characters. RWBY shocked its audience by killing off Pyrrha (a main character) and Penny, who everyone thought was being set up to play an important role later. Key The Metal Idol nearly killed off its entire cast including: heroes, villains, and main characters alike. No exceptions. And during the series finale for The Legend of Korra, many fans thought Mako was gonna pull a heroic sacrifice to shutdown the Colossus, just like Asami's father did.

One: Thanks for spoilers from so many series at the same time, jeez—'

Two: Yeah, some show subverted that expectation. So? Many more don't, and they still aren't considered bad or lacking in tension. I am impressed when writers actually managed to make you concerned like this, but it doesn't have to be the norm. Also, YMMV for Mako, because personally I am not impressed about it.

1. Because the government is never going to do it and Lex knows it. He has a high-powered legal team and enough people on his payroll that he'll be a free man in weeks, if not days later. A fact which Superman is well aware of since Lex has bragged about it.

Still the Government's fault and not Superman's. And that still makes it illegal to kill Luthor. Plus we all know he wouldn't last this long in the real world; the only reason he really can escape all the time is because he is popular and the writers enforce Joker Immunity. Heck, even if Superman DID decided to kill him and didn't turn evil because of it, it's almost certain he would still come back to life, because death in comics is less likely to stick based on how popular you are, so it's really debatable if killing him would actually save lifes. Darkseid, Doomsday and Trigon all were killed, and they still came back to hurt more people. So did Maxwell Lord.

2. Superman has the means and moral justification to end Lex and, unlike the people on Lex's payroll, Superman's complicity can't be bought. By now, he should know jailing Lex is as pointless as sending the Joker back to Arkham Asylum, because both of them will continue escape their confinement and endanger the populace.

Yeah, funny thing about morality: it's highly subjective. Not everyone has the same idea of what morality is. And if someone decides he always is morally right over everyone despite people disagreeing, that's usually perceived as a bad thing. Which is what Superman is supposed to avoid.

The Avatar is not unbeatable, regardless of their level of experience. Mai and Ty Lee were non-benders and both of them gave Aang and his friends trouble. So did the Dai Li.

Again, Aang was inexperienced at the time, and none of these characters are "average" people, though admittedly they aren't as overpowered as Combustion Man or the Red Lotus. And most of the time, they gave trouble but didn't actually defeated him.

Korra's inexperience didn't stop her from nearly defeating Tarrlok when they fought at City Hall, until he resorted to bloodbending to save himself. And in one of Brian and Mike's tweets, they said Kuvira is just that good because she's a master level earth and metalbender.

And now you're just trying to take the argument in the opposite sense. I said inexperience could make it possible to defeat them more easily, not that it allowed EVERYONE to defeat them. Don't make me say what I didn't say. Also, yeah, I don't care what the writer say, the episode shows pretty clearly Kuvira getting her ass kicked the moment Korra go Avatar state. And the finale shows that once she has finally healed, Korra clearly has the advantage even without the Avatar State (though Kuvira does get a few hits, which I guess shows she is indeed a master).

As a reminder: Kuvira was formerly the guard captain at Xiao Fu. During her tenure, she fought Zaheer and stalled him long enough for Su and Lin to save Korra. Three years later, her fighting ability had improved considerably and she was the Commander of the new Earth Empire.

... And this is relevant to the current discussion, how?

The poison was completely removed by that point, Jinora confirmed it when Opal asked whether the poison was what was slowing Korra down during the match. Not that it mattered since Kuvira was still able to match Korra even at her best.

Just because the poison was removed doesn't mean Korra wasn't still exhausted from the damages done by it, which is blatantly shown during the fight. Also, the dark Korra vision clearly is the only reason Korra wasn't able to crush Kuvira at the end of the duel. As for matching Korra at her best... if anything this fight proves my point: Korra doesn't even use the Avatar state this time, and Kuvira can only just keep up with her, with Korra still having a distinct advantage and landing more strikes than she does. This is a Curb Stomp Cushion at best.

But as I admitted before, I friggin' hate Kuvira as a character, so maybe I'm not very objective here.

Not quite. Cloud was a military grunt, turned mercenary for hire who loaned his services to AVALANCHE (an eco-terrorist group). Except Cloud literally wasn't himself, due to suffering extreme emotional trauma. As himself (after recovering his true memories), he's the last surviving member of SOLDIER's 1st class division (Shinra's private elite military unit) - except he doesn't work for Shinra.

Okay my bad. As I said, not familiar with the game;

Link has killed other humans to. In Breath of the Wild, the Yiga Clan are former members of the Sheikah who have sided with Ganon. So each time he mows any of them down, he's killing humans. The Gerudo are human to, which includes Ganondorf.

Also my bad, didn't play that game. But again, the context is different; Hyrule is a medieval fantasy setting in which you have thugs and pirates running around and it's probably fine by the law to kill them. Also, Link doesn't have god-level of powers and the resonsabilities that comes with it (though he DOES have other responsibilities and is a badass; unlike Kuvira, I do really like him^^).

And I'm not saying he should simply cast it aside and start killing all villains, but each time he spares that particular one, he's giving him the chance to endanger countless lives again.

Which you could basically say for every single villain. Luthor is just one who happens to succeed.

He needs to ask himself which matters more: his no kill rule, or enabling Lex to possibly kill the citizens he's sworn himself to protect?

His no-kill rule, without hesitations. Because giving it up mean HE could possibly kill many people, and he'd be way more dangerous than Luthor then. Plus, as I established sooner, it's not even certain killing Luthor would put an end to him. If you're taking into account the setting's inclination to Cardboard Prison, you also have to take into account how Death doesn't matter that much. The only way a popular villain's death can stick is when it's an Elseworld story, and even that's not a hard rule (Superman killed Joker in Injustice, and that clearly didn't prevent him from coming back in Injustice 2.... somehow.)

01/21/2018 00:00:00

One: thanks for spoilers from so many series at the same time, jeez

My apologies. I just assumed no one would mind since Robotech and Key were both made over 30 years ago. So I didn't think I was spoiling anything at this point.

Two: Yeah, some shows subvert that expectation. So? Many more don't, and they aren't considered bad or lacking in tension.

True, but the point was: you can't simply assume a character is guaranteed safe just because they're a main character, or simply because they're popular. It depends on the writer and tone of the series.

Still the government's fault not Superman's.

For being bought and manipulated by Lex into letting him go each time? Sure. But Superman still shares the responsibility because he knows Lex is never going to serve a full sentence. Therefore, continuing to trust the legal system to handle it is a waste of time.

Also, yeah, I don't care what the writers say, the episode pretty clearly shows Kuvira getting her ass kicked the moment Koora went into the Avatar state.

...during which, Kuvira took two wind gusts, but was still able to fight.

An asskicking is more like what Kuvira did to Suyin. Su picked the fight, couldn't land a blow, and didn't last a full minute before being forced to retreat.

Also, the dark Korra vision is clearly the only reason she wasn't able to crush Kuvira at the end of the duel.

She saw dark Korra because she was seeing herself in Kuvira. Korra lampshaded the fact they they were pretty much the same, while they were in the Spirit World.

As for matching Korra at her best... if anything this fight prives my point: Korra doesn't even use the Avatar state this time, and Kuvira can only just keep up with her

Actually, the highlighted part of your post proves my point (and the writers). Look at what you wrote and ask yourself: How many people, besides her, can go toe-to-toe with the Avatar and fight evenly with them?

Amon wasn't willing to take that chance, which is why he tried to take her bending away before she became a fully realized Avatar. Unalaq bided his time 'til he was able to merge with Vaatu, before he was willing to try facing her directly. Zaheer spent most of their fight running, while waiting for the metal poison to do its job for him.

Kuvira is the only one who didn't fear the Avatar state and even said she didn't care if Korra used it. When Korra burst into her control room, Kuvira met her head-on was still trading blows with her when Colossus blew in half. The only reason she withdrew is because she was injured by the fall. Meaning, she was no longer at her best.

Which you could say for every single villain. Luther is just one who happens to succeed.

Which makes him more of a threat, yes?

But if he's that adamant about not killing him, why not imprison him in the Phantom Zone? I doubt Lex can buy his way out of there.

01/21/2018 00:00:00

My apologies. I just assumed no one would mind since Robotech and Key were both made over 30 years ago. So I didn't think I was spoiling anything at this point.

Oh. Not as bad as I thought then, sorry I reacted like that.

True, but the point was: you can't simply assume a character is guaranteed safe just because they're a main character, or simply because they're popular. It depends on the writer and tone of the series.

True as well, but that doesn't change a thing to the fact knowing the character is unlikely to die isn't a problem.

For being bought and manipulated by Lex into letting him go each time? Sure. But Superman still shares the responsibility because he knows Lex is never going to serve a full sentence. Therefore, continuing to trust the legal system to handle it is a waste of time.

But that still doesn't give him the right to kill Luthor. Regardless of the system's flaws, killing him in this context would be against the law. And Superman's adherance to the law is the only way he can guarrantee humanity they are safe from him. Even if he is not that unstable, the population don't know that, and he needs to maintain their trust.

...during which, Kuvira took two wind gusts, but was still able to fight.

Yeah, if by "still be able to fight", you mean get knocked down to the ground and so wrecked she needed several seconds to get up, during which Korra would have crushed her under a boulder if not for the Diabolus Ex Machina. How impressive.

She saw dark Korra because she was seeing herself in Kuvira. Korra lampshaded the fact they they were pretty much the same, while they were in the Spirit World.

Honestly it doesn't matter what this vision meant or represented. This scene remains a Diabolus Ex Machina which caused this season to last must longer than it should have and forced us to endure that insufferable bitch's smile a bit longer.

Actually, the highlighted part of your post proves my point (and the writers). Look at what you wrote and ask yourself: How many people, besides her, can go toe-to-toe with the Avatar and fight evenly with them?

There is a huge difference between going toe-to-toe with the Avatar in regular mode (which I can buy would be a bit more accessible) and going against her in Avatar State (which I think is much less likely).

Kuvira is the only one who didn't fear the Avatar state and even said she didn't care if Korra used it.

Because she's less smart and more arrogant than all these other villains you listed. I mean look at where this got her; again, if not for the Diabolus Ex Machina, Battle for Zaofu would have ended with her as a stain on the ground. She hardly lived up to this boast.

Which makes him more of a threat, yes?

Yes, theorically at least.

But if he's that adamant about not killing him, why not imprison him in the Phantom Zone? I doubt Lex can buy his way out of there.

Now that is an interesting alternative, I'll admit. Though I don't know if a human can survive here, and again, the writer would probably make him escape anyway.

01/21/2018 00:00:00

I like turtles

Oh? What a coincidence! So do I ! :)

01/21/2018 00:00:00

But that still doesn't give him the right to kill Luther. Regardless of the system's flaws, killing him in this context would be against the law.

Only if he were to kill him without just cause. If he's threatening the lives of innocents, depending on the circumstances and the urgency of the situation, it could be entirely permissible for Clark to end Lex.

Yeah, if by "still able to fight", you mean got knocked down to the ground and so wrecked she needed several seconds to get up

Knocked down, but not out. And as you noted, she only needed seconds to get back on her feet. Had it been almost anyone else in Kuvira's place, the fight would've been over. Yet, she took both attacks and still got up.

Korra would have crushed her under a boulder if not for Diablos Ex Machina.

Except it wasn't. Korra was having visions of "dark Korra" as early as the second episode, after losing her earthbending bout in the underground arena. Then she saw her again in the swamp.

Both sightings took place well before her match with Kuvira, which foreshadowed their meeting and the eventual reveluation that they were more or less the same.

Because she's less smart and more arrogant than all these other villains you listed. I mean, look what it got her

You mean, the prestige of being the woman who challenged the Avatar and sent her packing, then laid claim to Xiao Fu after conquering her enemies?

Also, considering the fact that she came from nothing and rose from guard captain, to Commander of the new Earh Empire by rebuilding it from the ruined state Zaheer left it in (by killing the Earth Queen), she's not only accomplished, I'd say she's earned the right to be smug. That's a long way to come from being an orphan.

Now that is an interesting alternative, I'll admit. Though I don't know if a human can survive there

I wasn't sure of that either, so I Googled it, but it seems no one really knows for certain. At least, not on any of the sites I found that discussed it.

01/21/2018 00:00:00

People who raise the argument that Superman is a God-Mode Sue because he is \"overpowered\" clearly suffer from two similar problems: 1) they don\'t understand what it actually means to be a God-Mode Sue, and 2) they don\'t understand Superman, period.

Having a large number of superpowers does not make you a God-Mode Sue. Being extremely powerful (moreso than most other characters in the setting) also doesn\'t make you a God-Mode Sue. When it comes to defining a God-Mode Sue, the thing that matters isn\'t what a character can do, but rather how they are portrayed within the narrative.

Heroes beating villains and saving the day is usually the rule, rather than the exception. This is especially true when dealing with superhero stories (particularly mainstream DC and Marvel superhero stories), where the heroes defeating the big bad and preventing the world from being either conquered or destroyed is a foregone conclusion. Sure, there are exceptions to be found in every corner, but the genre as a whole generally defaults to \"villains attack, heroes get beaten up, heroes rally themselves, villains lose\".

The thing that distinguishes a God-Mode Sue from other heroes is that they take the \"heroes win, villains lose\" formula much further, all the way to its logical conclusion. A God-Mode Sue doesn\'t simply win battles, they win every battle flawlessly. The Big Bad is disposed of just as easily and quickly as any random, nameless mook. Every problem they encounter is resolved almost instantly, often in ways that defy logic and leave the audience being unsatisfied (due to how anticlimactically it happened). A God-Mode Sue\'s very presence within the setting automatically kills any and all conflict in the story. There is no struggle, no tension, and no character development. A God-Mode Sue is less of a person and more of a force of nature. None of these qualities describe Superman, especially when he is being handled by a good writer.

Superman is a character who has appeared in hundreds, if not thousands of stories since his creation in 1938. The number of stories that feature him curbstomping the Big Bad within seconds of their first encounter and saving the day on the first page is ZERO. No matter how powerful he is being portrayed within the story, Superman will still struggle to defeat his enemies, just as much as any other superhero in the same universe. This is because the villains he fights against mainly fall into two distinct camps: 1) those who are just as powerful as him (if not more powerful and therefore necessitating the discovery of a weakness he can exploit), and 2) those who are weaker than him, but intelligent enough to exploit one of his own weaknesses and/or neutralize his powers (forcing him to figure out a more creative way to overcome his enemies and save the day). Superman\'s detractors love to exaggerate the frequency in which he solves his problems with sheer brute force. Anyone who has ever read a full story arc of Superman comics would know that this is clearly not the case. Superman inhabits the same world as hundreds of other superheroes and supervillains, many of whom are just as powerful as he is (at least on paper). And despite all of his vast power, the Justice League still exists, because there are threats in the setting which even he cannot handle alone. If he were a God-Mode Sue, there would be no need for any other superhero, as Superman alone would be enough to crush every single villain in the setting, and he\'d do it without breaking a sweat. Canonically speaking, that has never been the case.

Superman is many different things to many different people, but he is NOT a God-Mode Sue.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

Only if he were to kill him without just cause. If he's threatening the lives of innocents, depending on the circumstances and the urgency of the situation, it could be entirely permissible for Clark to end Lex.

Yeah, that's kinda the thing, and a point where, ironically, Superman being so powerful becomes his weakness. Superman is powerful enough that there's almost no possible scenario where he couldn't stop Luthor without killing him. Meaning it's almost guarranteed that killing him would be murder. He cannot justify it with self-defense, because Luthor is harmless to him unless if using some special equipment. He cannot justify it by the "he was threatening innocents", because most of the time either he can easily prevent the death of the civilians using Super Speed, or killing Luthor wouldn't actually help saving the civilians (such as if Luthor has the civilians being threatened by missiles for example). No matter the scenario, Superman will look like he is abusing his power by killing an obviously weaker being he could have easily stopped without murder.

Knocked down, but not out. And as you noted, she only needed seconds to get back on her feet. Had it been almost anyone else in Kuvira's place, the fight would've been over. Yet, she took both attacks and still got up.

Oh, really? How do you know that? Air attacks aren't that powerful (at least in this setting), Amon also took them and got up. So did Zaheer against Tenzin. And I'm sorry, getting thrown around like a ragdoll and almost crushed by a boulder just isn't impressive when previous season had Zaheer go toe-to-toe with the Avatar state full Unstoppable Rage and lasting several minutes despite the fact he was getting mountains thrown at his face.

Except it wasn't. Korra was having visions of "dark Korra" as early as the second episode, after losing her earthbending bout in the underground arena. Then she saw her again in the swamp. Both sightings took place well before her match with Kuvira, which foreshadowed their meeting and the eventual reveluation that they were more or less the same.

Alright, it wasn't a Diabolus Ex Machina technically speaking because it had some vague foreshadowing. But it still was an unexplained event that happened just to allow Kuvira to win even though she clearly shouldn't have. And don't get me that whole "she saw herself in Kuvira" crap again, because that doesn't explain why she saw this Dark Korra thing multiple times before without even knowing Kuvira had gone nuts.

You mean, the prestige of being the woman who challenged the Avatar and sent her packing, then laid claim to Xiao Fu after conquering her enemies?

Again, only because of the Dark Korra bs. She won this fight by default because the plot required her to last for a few more episode, or because she was lucky (depending on your interpretation), but certainly not because of her skills. I have no respect for a villain who needs the plot's help to be a credible threat.

Also, considering the fact that she came from nothing and rose from guard captain, to Commander of the new Earh Empire by rebuilding it from the ruined state Zaheer left it in (by killing the Earth Queen), she's not only accomplished, I'd say she's earned the right to be smug. That's a long way to come from being an orphan.

It doesn't matter if she earned it from a technical point. It still made her unbearable to watch. She was intended to be written as a sympathetic villain with Well Intentioned Extremist motivations, but the writers did a terrible job at making her sympathetic, because they kept have her acting all smug and evil, while never showing her a single time conflicted over all the horrible thing she inflicted; the only time she did appear conflicted was when she had to shoot her own boyfriend. Then they throw us that orphan backstory at the last minute and expect us to sympathize with her after her being self-righteous and insulting pretty much everyone around while doing stupid thing like ethnic cleansing. You might see Awesome Ego, but all I see is a self-righteous cocky punk who think she is allowed to do any crap she wants on the basis she is in the right. And isn't even entertaining while doing so. I mean, for Christ's sake, she can't hear anyone remotely disagreeing with her without throwing a tantrum and threatening them with death or reeducation camps; she's just an annoying brat who got convinced she could get whatever she wanted because of her self-made-man status, and I feel her demise wasn't nearly as harsh as it should have been. And that's coming from a guy who usually like redemption stories.

Point is, I really hate the character and consider her the second weakest villain in the show, preceded only by Unalaq. Glad for you if you could enjoy her, but I really couldn't.

I wasn't sure of that either, so I Googled it, but it seems no one really knows for certain. At least, not on any of the sites I found that discussed it.

I admit that'd be an interesting scenario to explore. Surprising they never considered it.

@samsandoa: my point exactly^^ thank you.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

Superman is powerful enough that there's almost no possible scenario where he couldn't stiop Luther without killing him. Meaning, it's almost guaranteed that killing him would be murder.

And yet, he's done it and no one called it murder. Batman even agreed (quote): "It had to be done."

when the previous had Zaheer go toe-to-toe with the Avatar state

No he didn't. Zaheer wanted no part of a direct confrontation with Korra, which is why he initially drugged Korra in her sleep and tried to kidnap her. When that plan failed, he resorted to blakmailing Korra into surrendering herself and had her bound in chains so he'd have an easy shot after having her poisoined to force her into the Avatar state.

The moment she broke free of those chains, Zaheer turned tail and ran. Then spent the majority of the fight trying to keep her away from him, because he was still depending on the poison to kill her.

That's a stark contrast to how Kuvira did things. Both times when Korra threw down the gauntlet, Kuvira's response was basically, 'let's do it' and they squared off.

And don't give me that whole "she saw herself in Kuvira" crap again

Except it isn't crap, it's canon. Dark Korra is shown at the beginning of the clip, before she's finally revealed to be Kuvira and Korra plainly says that she saw herself in her.

because that doesn't explain why she saw this Dark Korra thing multiple times before without even knowing Kuvira

Which is no different than Aang having visions of Toph before actually meeting her. Except in his case, he saw his future earthbending master. In Korra's case, she was seeing her counterpart whom she would have to confront.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

And yet, he's done it and no one called it murder. Batman even agreed (quote): "It had to be done."

One: this is DCAU Superman, one of the weakest versions of the character.

Two: Despite Luthor claiming Superman HAS to kill him to stop him, it really feels like Superman wouldn't have needed that, given he could have used Super Speed to stop him from pushing the button. I saw an episode from the same setting where he stopped a guy from shooting him with a gun that theorically could have harmed him before the guy even had a chance to pull the trigger, and he didn't need to kill him for that.

Three: Even assuming Superman somehow DID need to kill him to stop him, it took Luthor BEING ELECTED PRESIDENT and killing Flash to get there. That's not exactly something this guy does on regular basis.

Four: You do realize this scene took place in an alternate universe and proved to be a bad thing on the long term, since this resulted in Superman going Knight Templar just like he fear he would, right? And that when the same thing almost happened in Mainstream DCAU, EVERYONE, Batman included, was afraid it'd happen? Nice job taking a scene out of context again. I mean seriously, you are trying to prove your argument using a scene that was done specifically to go against it.

No he didn't. Zaheer wanted no part of a direct confrontation with Korra, which is why he initially drugged Korra in her sleep and tried to kidnap her. When that plan failed, he resorted to blakmailing Korra into surrendering herself and had her bound in chains so he'd have an easy shot after having her poisoined to force her into the Avatar state. The moment she broke free of those chains, Zaheer turned tail and ran. Then spent the majority of the fight trying to keep her away from him, because he was still depending on the poison to kill her.

Because, again, he wasn't a moron like Kuvira was and knew better than trying to take on a Physical God in a straight fight. And yes, while he did spend most of the fight dodging and not directly fighting her, he did managed to not get killed and last must longer against the Avatar state than Kuvira did. So yeah, point go to Zaheer. There is a huge difference between bravery and Suicidal Overconfidence.

Except it isn't crap, it's canon. Dark Korra is shown at the beginning of the clip, before she's finally revealed to be Kuvira and Korra plainly says that she saw herself in her.

You misunderstood me. I am not denying that's what the scene meant, I'm saying the argument is crap in this context, because again, if that's all Dark Korra was meant to represent, then it makes no sense for Korra to see her before she ever saw what Kuvira was doing or knew why.

Which is no different than Aang having visions of Toph before actually meeting her. Except in his case, he saw his future earthbending master. In Korra's case, she was seeing her counterpart whom she would have to confront.

Sooooo Aang gets a straight vision from exactly the person he needs to look for, while Korra gets a weird vision of an evil version of herself without anything to understand it until the moment where realizing what it means actually harms her and causes her to lose a fight? Kinda seems different to me. Also, I don't remember for sure, but the Toph vision was really ambiguous on if it was coming from Aang being the Avatar or from the Swamp being a mystical place of sort.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

Despite Luther claiming Superman HAS to kill him to stop him, it really feels like Superman wouldn't have needed that, given he could have used Super Speed to stop him from pushing the button.

...which misses the point Lex made and the point of the scene in its entirety: Lex admits that Superman could just as easily do as he always does and turn him over to the authorities. But they both knew it it wouldn't be long before Lex would be a free man (again) and the cycle would continue to repeat itself.

The only way for Superman to finally put an end to it, was to finally end Lex's life, and Superman finally conceded. That's why Bruce didn't hold it against him, because he understood why Clark did it.

Further, his overall level of power (while astronomical) is irrelevant. Link also has godlike power, including being able to halt time and summon lightning strikes, his feats are literally spoken of in legend. Yet, no one in Hyrule calls him a murderer just because his power far exceeds the average citizen. Instead, his actions are seen as heroic because they're aware that he's defending them from Ganon's forces.

he did manage to not get killed and lasted much longer against the Avatar state than Kuvira did.

If by "lasted much longer," you mean "running for his life"? If you saw a prize fight where one guy literally ran around the ring for five rounds before being KO'd, would you honestly call that a respectable showing?

As opposed to two guys squaring off for two rounds, head-to-head, that ends by decision (Korra/Kuvira second match)? Zaheer ran, Kuvira fought.

So Aang gets a straight vision from exactly the person he needs to look for, while Korra gets a weird vision of an evil version of herself without anything to understand it until the moment where realizing what it means actually harms her and causes her to lose a fight?

Aang didn't realize what his vision meant either. All he saw was a girl in a white dress running around the swamp. Bumi interpreted what it meant, by telling Aang he needed to learn from someone who "listens and waits". Which is exactly how Toph fought during the Earth Rumble VI tournament, which how Aang recognized she was girl he saw in his vision.

Korra's was basically the same: she kept seeing a dark version of herself, but she didn't understand what it meant 'til she was in the Spirit World with her. It was a moment of clarity and self-realization for her, which is why Korra was able to empathize with Kuvira. And it was the reason Kuvira finally accepted Korra's judgement and stood down.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

...which misses the point Lex made and the point of the scene in its entirety: Lex admits that Superman could just as easily do as he always does and turn him over to the authorities. But they both knew it it wouldn't be long before Lex would be a free man (again) and the cycle would continue to repeat itself. The only way for Superman to finally put an end to it, was to finally end Lex's life, and Superman finally conceded. That's why Bruce didn't hold it against him, because he understood why Clark did it.

... You didn't listen to what I just said, didn't you? Aside from the fact Luthor is clearly meant to be the bad guy here, the fact remains that what happens after that in the episode clearly shows killing him ended up doing more harm than good. Even if he had a point, following his opinion ended up having overall negative consequences and changing the world for the worse. Plus even if Luthor did ended up free again, there's no way he would have realistically been elected president a second time. You don't seem to realize this episode portrays both Superman and Batman as wrong for resorting to this.

Further, his overall level of power (while astronomical) is irrelevant. Link also has godlike power, including being able to halt time and summon lightning strikes, his feats are literally spoken of in legend. Yet, no one in Hyrule calls him a murderer just because his power far exceeds the average citizen. Instead, his actions are seen as heroic because they're aware that he's defending them from Ganon's forces.

It's not irrelevant; Link is indeed strong and does have many powers coming from his artifact and triforces, but he is still not on Superman's level, and he certainly doesn't have the power to take over Hyrule and force them to go his way (also maybe because he would never overthrow the ruling princess due to having a crush on her... but that's just theory). The danger is in no way on the same level if he would go mad than if Superman did (though admittedly, Link going evil would still be worth worrying). To make a comparison, if Link went evil, that would essentially be Hyrule's Darth Vader; if Superman went evil, that would be God turned evil, which is an entirely different problem.

But even if the difference in power truly doesn't matter, there's still the difference of context I already mentioned: Link lives in a medieval fantasy society where killing to defend yourself or your loved ones is not only acceptable, but probably a necessity due to all the thugs and monsters running in the wild, while the civilized world is limited to a few cities with a majority of hostile environments and dungeons, not to mention a Sorcerous Overlord regularly trying to invade the kingdom. Moreover, depending on the variant, Link is essentially a knight invested with the authority to protect the kingdom, and answers to a higher authority (the princess), though admittedly that one is less of a constant.

Meanwhile, Superman lives in a modern society similar to our own, where humanity has civilized most of the planet (not counting the oceans, which are ruled by Aquaman), killing is mostly considered acceptable only if performed by militaries or executioners and generally not necessary to survive (unless you're in a poor or corrupt country) due to the legal system and technology offering a wide array of alternative means to deal with dangerous situations, and all humans (including supervillains) are usually considered as people with legal right (again, not counting corrupt governments and poor countries). And Superman isn't a cop nor a military or authority figure invested with legal power by any authority; he's just an civilian who tries to help the authorities and save people, and happens to be so powerful he can actually make a difference. Legally, he doesn't have, nor want, the right to act as Judge Jury And Executioner.

As you can see, their situations are drastically different, hence the completely different reaction from normal people to what these two heroes do.

On a note, yeah, Link doesn't hesitates to kill his opponents... and remind me how effective that proved to be in stopping Ganondorf's atrocities? Oh, wait, it didn't; Ganondorf keeps coming back anyway by resurrecting, and in fact in at least one timeline managed to make things even worse despite previously dying. Yes, clearly Link killing his opponents made him a more efficient hero than Superman.

If by "lasted much longer," you mean "running for his life"? If you saw a prize fight where one guy literally ran around the ring for five rounds before being KO'd, would you honestly call that a respectable showing?

Except this wasn't a prize fight; he acted smart by dodging her attacks and waiting for the poison to take effect, which almost resulted in his victory. Cowardly? Maybe. But it came damn close to work, and the only reason Korra didn't die (which was his endgoal) was because the others removed the poison in time. Also, the attacks he managed to dodge and not getting killed by included, again, an entire montain thrown into his face, so yeah, much more impressive than a guy running away from punches. And Korra almost lost because of what he did.

Unlike Kuvira, who stupidly decided to fight a Physical God in a duel with almost nothing to give herself an advantage against her and taunted her into using her Super Mode, resulting in her almost being crushed. The only two things that allowed her to win were Korra being still exhausted after the mercury poisoning, and Korra seeing her as Dark Korra, both exterior factors Kuvira had no way to know about, cause or influence in her favor. Ironically enough for a Self-made woman, Kuvira only won her first duel against Korra out of dumb luck, unlike Zaheer who actually almost got victory through his own actions.

Aang didn't realize what his vision meant either. All he saw was a girl in a white dress running around the swamp. Bumi interpreted what it meant, by telling Aang he needed to learn from someone who "listens and waits". Which is exactly how Toph fought during the Earth Rumble VI tournament, which how Aang recognized she was girl he saw in his vision. Korra's was basically the same: she kept seeing a dark version of herself, but she didn't understand what it meant 'til she was in the Spirit World with her. It was a moment of clarity and self-realization for her, which is why Korra was able to empathize with Kuvira. And it was the reason Kuvira finally accepted Korra's judgement and stood down.

Is the statement that it was a vision created by her powers to warn her of Kuvira canon too, or just a fan theory? Because I am almost convinced Aang's vision was a result of the Swamp being mystical rather than his avatar powers. After all, he never displayed similar prophetic visions anywhere else in his show, and neither did Korra.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

if Superman went evil, that would be God turned evil

Not even close. God can't be stopped by green rocks, or a mortal in a bat costume. But Superman can and has been bested by both on numerous occasions.

An episode of "Justice League" revealed Batman has contingency plans in place in case any of them went rogue; including Superman. The animated version of "Suicide Squad" had Amanda Waller trying to confiscate those same plans to use as leverage against the JL. And in the Injustice series, Batman not only defeated him, he imprisoned him in the Phantom Zone. So Clark can be dealt with should he ever turn to "the dark side".

Superman isn't a cop or military figure invested with any legal power

In that case, neither is Cloud and he lives in a sci-fi civilized society. But he's still slain Sephiroth on two occasions and wasn't called a murderer.

Ganondorf keeps comig back anyway by resurrecting

That's because Ganon, Link, and Zelda all perpetually reincarnate, due to each of them bearing a third of the Triforce. Since the Triforce can't exist in part, whenever one reincarnates, so do the other two (i.e. they're bound together by destiny).

Lex doesn't have that advantage, so if Clark were to kill him, that'd be the end of it.

Unlike Kuvira, who stupidly decided to fight a Physical God in a duel with almost nothing to give herself an advantage

Because she's confident enough in her own ability that she doesn't have to rig a fight in order to win. Also, a leader leads by example. How else was she gonna inspire confidence in her troops if she didn't have any faith in herself?

That's why she told them she would never order them do anything unless she was prepared (and able) to do it herself. So she told them to stay out of it, regardless what the outcome might've been. Then she told Korra to come at her any way she liked, including with the Avatar state. And when Korra finally used it, Kuvira didn't back down.

Is the statement that it was a vision created by her powers to warn her of Kuvira canon too, or just a fan theory?

I can't say for certain. Aang only had his vision in the swamp, whereas Korra first had hers in a back alley while she was in the city. So it's unkown what triggered either one. All we were told was what both of their visions meant.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

Not even close. God can't be stopped by green rocks, or a mortal in a bat costume. But Superman can and has been bested by both on numerous occasions.

Oh, please. One, the only reason Batman ever was able to defeat Superman was because Superman is constantly holding back when they fight. If Superman decided to kill Batman and get serious about it, the Dark Knight would have no chance- something that has been acknowledged in most recent comics, including by Batman himself, and in a comic written by the same guy who wrote the initial comic where he was defeated by Batman no less.

I also guess Superman is only OP when that suits you, since suddenly you are trying to argue he's not that OP. But fine, if you want to take it literally, no, it'd not be God turned evil. That was a hyperbole. But it'd have an effect quite similar. The comics featuring the Syndicate of Crime and Ultraman show us quite well how bad an evil Superman can be: he can hear almost everyone all over the world, travel wherever he wants in a short time, and kill them before they even have the time to grab Kryptonite. Superman could easily monitor the entire Earth and deliver an instant kill to anyone who dares piss him off-things guys like Link clearly wouldn't be able to do if they turned evil.

An episode of "Justice League" revealed Batman has contingency plans in place in case any of them went rogue; including Superman. The animated version of "Suicide Squad" had Amanda Waller trying to confiscate those same plans to use as leverage against the JL. And in the Injustice series, Batman not only defeated him, he imprisoned him in the Phantom Zone. So Clark can be dealt with should he ever turn to "the dark side".

Yeah, I know. Fun fact: in at least one version, Superman deliberately helped Batman with the contingency plan against him, because he trust him with restraining him should he go evil. And still in other versions, he knows full well the government has plans to take him down, and approves of them for the same reason than above. These contingency plans exist mostly because he allows them to exist. And of course Superman going evil could still be defeated, but that'd still make a lot of death before we get there- assuming he doesn't destroy people who could stop him in time, of course, so the risk still is huge, much bigger than letting Luthor live.

Also, screw Injustice, that game blatantly turned Batman into a Creators Pet to the detriment of Superman. But I'll admit that's less an argument and more a subjective opinion.

In that case, neither is Cloud and he lives in a sci-fi civilized society. But he's still slain Sephiroth on two occasions and wasn't called a murderer.

Again, I don't know the details of the setting, so it's hard to say for sure, but based on both my experience in other FF games and what I heard, the sci-fi civilized society in these games still is much less sure than our own world, probably doesn't have the same laws, and is in a context of war and terrorism, so I'm pretty sure the context still is drastically different. But even then, Cloud isn't even close to the power level required to be as dangerous as Superman should he turn evil. Please stop trying to take completely different contexts as examples, this is getting us nowhere.

That's because Ganon, Link, and Zelda all perpetually reincarnate, due to each of them bearing a third of the Triforce. Since the Triforce can't exist in part, whenever one reincarnates, so do the other two (i.e. they're bound together by destiny).

I know. In case you couldn't tell, I actually played these games. But the explanation why he keeps coming back is still irrelevant here, because the end result is the same: killing Ganondorf does nothing to make sure he won't come back to harm people. Just like killing Luthor wouldn't accomplish anything of the sort more than likely, because the DCU has at the very least ten different possible explanations to bring him back after that.

Lex doesn't have that advantage, so if Clark were to kill him, that'd be the end of it.

I'm starting to question if you actually read comics. Do you know how many super-villains and super-heroes have come back from the dead multiple time despite this not being actually part of their powers? Including ones who were Muggles? Death has always been a revolving door in super-hero comics, which you can get through based on your popularity. And I think you already know this, but Luthor is very popular. Do you seriously, honestly believe his death would stick in this kind of universe?

Here's the truth: Even if Link somehow found a way to break destiny and prevent Ganondorf's return by, say, destroying his soul, I'd be ready to be you it'd be a matter of time before he finds a way to come back. In a meta-sense, both Ganondorf and Luthor are still alive and active because they are popular, which causes the writers to constantly find new excuses to bring them back. If you took that back and tried to treat the DCU like a realistic universe, Luthor would stay in jail or be executed, because realistically there is no way he could bride people into freeing him indefinitely (especially after all he did), and Superman wouldn't even have to concern himself over the decision to kill him.

Because she's confident enough in her own ability that she doesn't have to rig a fight in order to win. Also, a leader leads by example. How else was she gonna inspire confidence in her troops if she didn't have any faith in herself?

Hence Suicidal Overconfidence. And she could have just fight Korra in her normal state without goading her to go Avatar State. That would have inspired her troops the same, without the risk of being crushed under a boulder. Heck, she could have agreed to rules to the duel with Korra to make it equal and take a handicap of her own to make up for Korra's weakness. That would have been true Noble Demon attitude.

Then she told Korra to come at her any way she liked, including with the Avatar state. And when Korra finally used it, Kuvira didn't back down.

Don't make me laugh. She didn't have the time to back down. She got thrown around like a ragdoll, took a moment to even get up, and seized an opening when she saw Korra fall for no apparent reason (So much for a Noble Demon I guess).

I can't say for certain. Aang only had his vision in the swamp, whereas Korra first had hers in a back alley while she was in the city. So it's unkown what triggered either one. All we were told was what both of their visions meant.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

01/22/2018 00:00:00

One: The only reason Batman was ever able to defeat Superman was because Superman was constantly holding back whenever they fight.

I'm aware of that. I never said he wasn't holding back against him, but it doesn't change the fact that Bruce has defeated him more than once.

I also guess Superman is only OP when it suits you

Nope, he's still ridiculously OP. The fact that Bruce still needs body armor, gadgets, and a Kryptonite ring in case of emergency for a guy who's taking it easy on him, further proves just how OP Superman really is. So my stance hasn't changed in that regard.

Do you know how many supervillains and superheroes have come back from the dead multiple times, despite this not actually being a part of their powers.

Yes, I know. It's part of the reason I stopped reading comics and prefer anime. In most anime, when a character dies it's final, as it should be (even when it's my favorite characters).

Cloud isn't even close to the power level required to be as dangerous as Superman should he turn evil.

Wanna bet? You're talking about a genetically enhanced super SOLDIER who's defeated a planet devourer twice (i.e. Sephiroth) in single combat. A feat which no one else in FF VII's canon was able to accomplish. Cloud may not have nearly the same speed and power as Clark, but he's still impressive in both regards, he's resilient, and he can also use an array of materia that ranges from time manipulation, elemental magic, and summons.

And she could have just fought Korra in her normal state without goading her to go Avatar state.

If she did, it'd be an admission that feared the Avatar's full power. Allowing Korra to go all out was the only way to make it clear to her troops and Korra that it didn't matter to her how anyone came at her: because The Great Uniter would not yield.

She got thrown around like a ragdool, took a moment to even get up, and seized an opening when she saw Korra fall for no apparent reason (So much for a Noble Demon I guess).

To Kuvira, it appeared Korra hesitated to attack, then faltered and fell. She knew Korra had her dead to rights, but didn't finish her, which she perceived as weakness. Kuvira felt Korra should've gone through with it. Which gave her an opportunity to kill Korra, which she also didn't do.

Instead, she immobilized Korra and paused long enough to give Opal and Jinora a chance to save her. They took the bait, which breached the terms of the duel; making Kuvira the winner by default, which allowed her to lay claim to Xiao Fu as they agreed.

So yes, she's a noble demon and a Magnificent Bitch.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

I'm aware of that. I never said he wasn't holding back against him, but it doesn't change the fact that Bruce has defeated him more than once.

It does in that should Superman REALLY go evil, there's very little Batman could actually do to stop him. Which is the point here.

Nope, he's still ridiculously OP. The fact that Bruce still needs body armor, gadgets, and a Kryptonite ring in case of emergency for a guy who's taking it easy on him, further proves just how OP Superman really is. So my stance hasn't changed in that regard.

And yet you are admitting Superman can be defeated by a regular human if that regular human had the proper prep time and is properly equipped. Much like the Avatar can be defeated by people who are equipped with good enough equipment or have special bending or training. No matter how strong a character or if you need special equipment to fight him, if he can be defeated in the setting, then he isn't a God-mode.

Yes, I know. It's part of the reason I stopped reading comics and prefer anime. In most anime, when a character dies it's final, as it should be (even when it's my favorite characters).

I could try using Dragon Ball Z as a counter-argument, but that'd be petty of me. I respect your preference, just as I expect you'd respect mine if I tell you I stopped anime and preferred comics because of other bad cliché I couldn't stand in these japanese media.

But your preference is irrelevant here; the fact remains that in Superhero comics, killing the villain isn't as much of a permanent solution as it is in real life. Again, even assuming comic books would somehow become more realistic (which we both know they won't) and have death be permanent, most likely the Cardboard Prison trope would be abandoned as well, meaning Luthor would stay in jail (again, bribing and lawyers would only get him out of jail for so long before he made enough enemies to guarrantee they'd want to stay imprisoned), and thus there would no longer be any point in killing him since he could be stopped without it.

Wanna bet? You're talking about a genetically enhanced super SOLDIER who's defeated a planet devourer twice (i.e. Sephiroth) in single combat. A feat which no one else in FF VII's canon was able to accomplish. Cloud may not have nearly the same speed and power as Clark, but he's still impressive in both regards, he's resilient, and he can also use an array of materia that ranges from time manipulation, elemental magic, and summons.

Oh, I have no doubt he is impressive, but does have enough Super Speed to move around the world in a few seconds? Or Super Senses allowing to assume global Sinister Surveillance? Heck, is he even the only one in his setting with access to all these Materia ? You gotta look in other areas than raw power to judge how scary a character would be if he turned evil. If you think a character's ability to take over the world is solely based on how much asses he can kick, you are being awfully uncreative.

If she did, it'd be an admission that feared the Avatar's full power. Allowing Korra to go all out was the only way to make it clear to her troops and Korra that it didn't matter to her how anyone came at her: because The Great Uniter would not yield.

There is no shame in accepting your opponent is stronger than you when it's a blatant fact. And besides, I honestly don't get why her troops were impressed, given she was thrown around like a ragdoll the moment Korra went serious, only won because Korra clearly had a moment of weakness, and then she tried to kill Korra even though they had agreed on the duel being non lethal. and she still dared say the others were in the wrong for interfering. If anything, that duel proved how petty and dishonorable Kuvira was, in addition of showing the difference in power.

To Kuvira, it appeared Korra hesitated to attack, then faltered and fell. She knew Korra had her dead to rights, but didn't finish her, which she perceived as weakness. Kuvira felt Korra should've gone through with it. Which gave her an opportunity to kill Korra, which she also didn't do. Instead, she immobilized Korra and paused long enough to give Opal and Jinora a chance to save her. They took the bait, which breached the terms of the duel; making Kuvira the winner by default, which allowed her to lay claim to Xiao Fu as they agreed.

And now you are just going full Alternate Character Interpretation here; there is no indication in the episode she intended Opal and Jinora to react like this, for all we see she really was going to kill Korra - which by the way was in itself a blatant breach in the terms of the duel, since they had agreed it would be non-lethal. But Kuvira wasn't called out for it, because she had the biggest army, and as usual when things don't go the way she wants, she uses the "who's the biggest stick" method. If she really was noble, she could have just put down Korra non-lethally, and the result would have been just the same. Because - and that's the flaw in your interpretation- Kuvira didn't need to be declared winner by default; Korra was on the ground and immobilized, she would have been declared winner anyway even if she didn't tried to kill her. So yeah, her trying to kill Korra was not a smart scam, it was just a completely needless Kick The Dog.

Kuvira is neither a Noble Demon nor a Magnificent Bitch. She is a petty, immature, impulsive Control Freak who can't take any legitimate criticism or disagreement without reacting with a death treath, acts hypocritically, shows no respect to her opponents, meets opposition with violence and was primarily able to get as far as she did because most characters took their sweet time before actually doing something to stop her. Her rise to power was due to the Avatar being out of commission for years. She got Zaofu without even having her army battle for it thanks to a combination of Suyin acting like an idiot (seriously, what kind of ruler go perform an assassination herself instead of sending people for it?!) and a duel that, as mentioned above, she only won out of a combination of dumb luck and her own hypocrisy. She had time to build the Colossus because the protagonists were unwilling to attack the Earth Kingdom without provocation. And Republic City was about to give up without a fight as well solely because she pointed a giant gun as well. There is no smart manipulation, no cunning strategy; all she ever relied on were exterior factors she had no control on and threatening people. And for Christ's sake, she tried to have Zhu-Li blasted by the equivalent of a nuclear weapon for betraying her! I get betrayal justifies execution or sending her to jail, but this was just needlessly heinous. When a character does something as ridiculously over-the-top as a real-life Korean dictator, you might have to consider she isn't exactly noble.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

It does in that should Superman REALLY go evil, there's very little Batman could actually do to stop him.

That depends entirely on the writer. If they want Bruce to stop Clark, they'll find a way to make it possible.

So we're clear: I'm not a fan of Batman either. The only time I've ever liked him was in the Tim Burton's '89 film, mainly because of Michael Keaton's portrayal of the character.

I could try using DBZ as a counterargument.

Which is why I said: "In most anime" not ALL.

even assuming comic books would somehow become more realistic, Luthor would stay in jail, as bribery and lawyers would get him out so many times before his sentence stuck. Meaning, there'd be no point in killing him.

↑I condensed this part.

That's assuming: a.) Lex would be imprisoned (and bribe his way out) enough times that he'd no longer be eligible for parole, or a reduced sentence, b.) that Superman's patience with Lex would continue to last, allowing him to keep turning him over to the authorities, rather than deciding he'd already given him enough chances.

B. is especially important, because in a realistic setting, I doubt Superman would be as idealistic, or forgiving as he's usually depicted in canon. He may simply decide that 'enough's enough' like in the scene I linked to earlier.

You gotta look at other areas than raw power to judge how scary a character would be if they turned evil.

A character does not need to have the same scope of ability as Superman to be just as threatening to the civilian populace and fellow heroes, if not more so.

Cloud doesn't have Superman's nigh invulnerability etc., but he's the last surviving SOLDIER 1st class. Meaning, there's no one else like him in Midgar or anywhere else on the planet, so canonically, he's literally in a class by himself. If he turned evil, their best shot at stopping him would be Vincent and even his chances are slim. A single SOLDIER can wipe out entire armies, because they move faster than most people can see, or react to, and that sword Cloud carries lets him carve through damn near anything with even having to touch it.

That's why Aerith said SOLDIER was scary.

Think about how that sounds to the average citizen, or even his friends. How would they defend themselves against someone like that? Where could they hide that Cloud couldn't get to them if he really wanted them dead? They can't outrun him and there's no armor that can protect them from that sword he's carrying, because he's already proven he can carve through skyscrapers and even Aeons with it. One swipe is all he needs and he doesn't have to be anywhere near them to do it.

there is no indication in the episode that she intended Opal and Jinora to react like that

Then a second viewing might help. Notice the aside glance she gives them right as she forms those blades and also notice she holds the blades in place rather than going for the kill. Why do you suppose she did that? Jinora and Opal weren't going to stand there and watch Korra die and Kuvira knew it.

Kuvira is neither a Nobe Demon or a Magnificent Bitch.

Canon shows otherwise.

She agreed to fight for Xiao Fu in a duel of honor, when she and her army could have simply taken it by force had she given the order. Prior to that, she tried to negotiate with Su, but Su wouldn't speak with her and tried to assassinate Kuvira instead.

She fought Korra herself, rather than hide behind her army and made it 1-on-1 without restrictions to make it fair for Korra. And rather than kill Korra when she had the chance, Kuvira paused long enough to give Jinora and Opal a chance to save her. She didn't need (or want) Korra dead, all she needed was to prove a point to her men and anyone else who might oppose her: that not even the world's Avatar could stand in her way.

Since Jinora and Opal breached the terms of the duel by interferring, Kuvira became the winner by default. Which allowed her to claim Xiao Fu (as per their agreement) without having to kill Korra. Kuvira got exactly what she wanted, the way she intended, according to the terms both sides agreed to.

So yes, she more than qualifies as noble demon and a magnificent bitch.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

That depends entirely on the writer. If they want Bruce to stop Clark, they\'ll find a way to make it possible.

Yes, obviously. But you could say that from basically any character about any other character, so not sure how that\'s relevant.

Which is why I said: \"In most anime\" not ALL.

Which is why I said it\'d be petty to use that argument.

That\'s assuming: a.) Lex would be imprisoned (and bribe his way out) enough times that he\'d no longer be eligible for parole, or a reduced sentence, b.) that Superman\'s patience with Lex would continue to last, allowing him to keep turning him over to the authorities, rather than deciding he\'d already given him enough chances. B. is especially important, because in a realistic setting, I doubt Superman would be as idealistic, or forgiving as he\'s usually depicted in canon. He may simply decide that \'enough\'s enough\' like in the scene I linked to earlier.

Realistically I doubt Luthor would be able to bribe his way out that many times. He would probably be sentenced for life with no way out after the first time he\'d have threatened thousands of life or blew up/attempted to blow up a city. People have been in jail for the rest of their life for less than that, and money can\'t make people look away when what you did had thousands of witnesses or victims.

And I really disagree regarding Superman; while it\'s objective facts that you can\'t raise the dead in the real world nor can you bribe your way out of every single atrocities you accomplish, there are thousands of humans with different personnalities on the planet, and larger than life individual HAVE existed.Someone as kind and idealistic as Superman always is portrayed would be rare for sure, but it\'s hard to say if it\'d be absolutely impossible; realism and cynism aren\'t always the same thing. Also, we\'re assuming the setting itself change here, not Superman and Luthor.

A character does not need to have the same scope of ability as Superman to be just as threatening to the civilian populace and fellow heroes, if not more so. Charles Xavier is a cripple and is physically weak. But if he wanted to, he can use Cerebro to hack into every single mind on the planet at once and make them see, hear, and feel whatever he wants them to. Or he could simply kill \'em all by shutting their minds down, from the comfort of his mansion. The entire Onslaught saga was a massive lampshading of how frightening Xavier could be if he ever turned evil, because if he wants you dead all he has to do is think it.

See? At least we agree on that point.

Regarding Cloud, again, it\'s hard to picture myself this, because I am not that familiar with the games and its characters. But what you describe give me the impression he\'s just really though and really good at destroying things. Him evil would be bad for sure, but he couldn\'t take over the world and maintain control like Superman or Xavier would.

Then a second viewing might help. Notice the aside glance she gives them right as she forms those blades and also notice she holds the blades in place rather than going for the kill. Why do you suppose she did that? Jinora and Opal weren\'t going to stand there and watch Korra die and Kuvira knew it.

Wow. That\'s about as convincing as that fan theory Zuko had feelings for Katara because he acted nice to her once in season 1. Again, this scene could mean anything. She could have just wanted to make sure her enemies saw her champion die, and taken her time to kill her to make it look more dramatic. She could have been hesitating to kill her (though I highly doubt that one). She could have been acting slower because she was tired. There are tons of other ways to interpret this. Nowhere is it stated she intended for Jinora and Opal to react, and in fact her indignation looks genuine when they do react. Sorry, but unless you have an official statement from the writers that it was what this scene meant, your theory is worthless.

But it doesn\'t matter, because as I said previously, that scam made no sense; she already was winning, and Korra had agreed she\'d get Zaofu if she won. She could have KO-ed Korra non-lethally and the end result would still be the same, only she wouldn\'t look like a murderous dick. My personal interpretation is that she went for the kill because she realized Korra would swoop the floor with her should she fully recover, and she didn\'t want to take that chance. Which I admit would be a smart move of her part, so I guess she is not completely an idiot.

She agreed to fight for Xiao Fu in a duel of honor, when she and her army could have simply taken it by force had she given the order. Prior to that, she tried to negotiate with Su, but Su wouldn\'t speak with her and tried to assassinate Kuvira instead.

Yeah, right, let\'s talk about that negociation scene. Here\'s my summary of it:

Kuvira: Zaofu is a powerful opponent, we should avoid using force and try negociation first if we can.

  • Five seconds of negociation later*

Kuvira: Screw negociation, I\'ll just throw an Ultimatum and piss off!

Notice that 1) She does this solely out of Pragmatic Villainy rather than because it\'s the right thing, and 2) she barely tried negociating before falling back on treath like she always does, showing that not only is she not noble, she is impulsive and trigger-happy. Granted, Suyin didn\'t help, and that probably would have failed anyway, but it\'s a bit generous to say she really tried. Bolin even asked her to give him more time, but she refused.

As for the duel, once again, it was Pragmatic Villainy rather than honor; Korra promised she would get Zaofu without a fight if she won, so winning the duel would allow her to not sacrifice soldiers and make her look impressive by defeating the Avatar. Mind you, it was still a really dumb idea to think she could defeat her in Avatar state.

So, yeah, nothing noble, she\'s just giving a good façade out of pragmatism. And I already explained above why your whole theory about Kuvira\'s Batman Gambit made no sense, so not gonna repeat myself on that one.

... I\'ll say, though, looking back, these are smart decisions (safe for, again, goading Korra into the Avatar state), so I\'ll at least nuance my previous statements: Kuvira isn\'t a Noble Demon, but she is not dumb; clearly she is a genuinely good tactician, and has a good understanding of politics and how to use them. She actually kinda meets most of the conditions to fit as a Magnificent Bitch.

There is one parameter that makes me reluctant to actually classify her as such, though; Magnificent Bastard are supposed to never lose their cool. While Kuvira usually appears stoic, it\'s really blatant she isn\'t; she is impulsive, capricious, and threatens everyone who remotely disagreed with her, which in fact plays against her eventually, as several of her allies (Bolin and Varrick especially) turn against her because of this. This impulsivity and denial that she might be in the wrong end up making her do really stupid things, and that\'s her downfall (which by the way, is canon: that\'s exactly what Korra acknowledges in the finale).

Notice that it doesn\'t change that much my feelings on the character, though; I still think she is an unbearable bitch who deserved much worse than she got, made the whole season painful to watch for me because I kept being impatient about when the protagonist would do something to stop her instead of letting go around doing her shit, and for me the writers still did a piss-poor job at making her sympathetic. But I will admit her character had some merits; And that\'s the best you\'ll get from me.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

But you could basically say that about any writer and any other character, so not sure how that's relevant.

My point is: while logically, it shouldn't happen, canonically it has.

By all rights, Clark should be able to easily obliterate Bruce with a single punch, or by using any of his other superhuman abilities. It should be a foregone conclusion, but the writers will never let it happen, because Bruce is too popular. Superman is billed as "a god among men" but Batman is "a man among gods" who also happens to be the smartest guy in the room. Which is why the JL defers to him, rather than Clark, Diana, or Hal.

Clark even says ii in "Injustice" (quote): "You're always three steps ahead of everyone else."

Regarding Cloud, again, it's difficult to picture it myself, became I'm not familiar with the game and its characters. But what you describe gives me the impression that he's just really tough and really good at destroying things.

It's not that simple. Aerith explains why SOLDIER is scary, here. The one you see with her is Zack, Cloud's former friend.

Wow. That's about as convincing as that fan theory Zuko had feelings for Katara because he acted nicely to her once in season 1.

That was shippers' whisful thinking, the scene with Kuvira actually happened.

taken her time to kill her to make it more dramatic

I'd find that hard to believe, considering she's too pragmatic to waste time with theatrics when she had a city to conquer.

She could've been acting slower because she was tired.

She wasn't even winded. Her hair had come undone during the fight, but it didn't slow her down any. I can link to that scene to if you don't mind sitting through it again.

Yes, she could have simply knocked Korra out, but there wasn't any need to. Just as there wasn't any need to kill her. A better solution was standing right there, only a few yards away: Korra's friends. If they interfered, Kuvira could call 'foul' and claim the city by right without any further effort.

It was a win-win scenario. Either Jinora and Opal step in, or Kuvira would be allowed to kill the Avatar. It doesn't take a genius to realize her friends weren't going to let that happen. That's why Kuvira glanced in their direction when she had those blades poised to finish Korra off. She was waiting for them to make their move, so she could make hers.

Kuvira isn't a Noble Demon

Re-read the trope description, it plainly says they're villainous and often commit heinous acts, but to some extent, they have a code of honor.

The scene where the bandits attacked her train had Kuvira order the train stopped so she could go out a face them herself. The battle at Xiao Fu, her fight with Suyin, and her rematch with Korra further proved she has a strong sense of valor. When she ejected Su from the platform they were fight on, notice Kuvira made no further attack and waited to see if Su would continue. Su retreated and Kuvira let her go. Likewise, when Korra burst into her control room, Kuvira didn't flee, or call for help, she faced Korra herself just as she had done previously.

She also tried negotiating twice. Su blew her off the first, the second time, Kuvira asked Korra to speak to Su on her behalf and said her army wouldn't take no action against Xiao Fu until Korra got back to her. And Su pissed that opportunity away by trying to assassinate Kuvira instead. At that point, Korra was left with no choice but to fight Kuvira in exchange for the release of Su and her sons + the city itself.

If Kuvira were really as treacherous as you believe she is, she could have saved her breath since Su clearly wasn't interested in negotiations, just as Su wasn't interested in the affairs of the Earth Kingdom, until it inconvenienced her (which Lin and Kuvira called her out on). But Kuvira still tried anyway.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

My point is: while logically, it shouldn't happen, canonically it has. By all rights, Clark should be able to easily obliterate Bruce with a single punch, or by using any of his other superhuman abilities. It should be a foregone conclusion, but the writers will never let it happen, because Bruce is too popular. Superman is billed as "a god among men" but Batman is "a man among gods" who also happens to be the smartest guy in the room. Which is why the JL defers to him, rather than Clark, Diana, or Hal. Clark even says ii in "Injustice" (quote): "You're always three steps ahead of everyone else."

Yes, clearly, but I still don't get how that support any of your points. Granted, at this point I am not even sure what you are trying to argue about.

That was shippers' whisful thinking, the scene with Kuvira actually happened.

So did the scene with Zuko being nice to Katara however briefly, it just didn't mean anything. And neither did that scene, because as I said, your interpretation is merely a theory: nothing makes it obvious. Kuvira doesn't explain later that this was her intention, and the writers didn't state it was the case. You know, if this really was that obvious, you'd expect fans to have brought up this interpretation before. And yet I never saw this anywhere in the trope pages. Neither the recap for the Battle for Zaofu nor Kuvira's own section even acknowledge it as a possibility. Clearly this isn't as blatant as you believe.

It's nice to have your own intepretation of what a scene means, but please keep in mind this is just your own intepretation and not a fact.

I'd find that hard to believe, considering she's too pragmatic to waste time with theatrics when she had a city to conquer.

You mean like when she made a dramatic New Era Speech in front of the entire nations during the Coronation? The execution of a major figure such as the Avatar is, quite on the contrary, a situation where you want to be dramatic for the image. It brings a message.

She wasn't even winded. Her hair had come undone during the fight, but it didn't slow her down any. I can link to that scene to if you don't mind sitting through it again.

Already did. And please, you are acting as if she waited for a long time; the blades stay in the air for about a few seconds. It hardly feels like she is waiting for Jinora and Opal to react. And after this second watch, I can say for certain she never gave an aside glance at these two.

Honestly, I could easily get ten more different interpretations for this scene out of my head, but I am tired of even arguing with you on it, considering you keep insisting this is what the scene means, despite the fact you have no concrete proof and it makes no sense (again, killing her or pretending to kill her so the other would react accomplished nothing useful because she had already won). Unless you go on a forum, get an answer straight from the creators about what Kuvira was thinking, and then bring me back a link to the quote, none of what you say will convince me.

Re-read the trope description, it plainly says they're villainous and often commit heinous acts, but to some extent, they have a code of honor.

Yes, code of honor. That's different from Villainous Valor, which I am ready to admit Kuvira has (she is, after all, convinced she is a good guy in all of this). She is brave, yes, suicidally so sometimes, and I won't deny it. But her attempts to negociate were only done out of pragmatism, and she was quick to abandon them both times. She is good at pretending she has a code, and she probably believes it herself, but really this is just a mask, and the moment things don't go her way, she almost always throws the code out the window and starts doing things her way. Heck, her own trope pages acknowledges she herself went back on deals she made herself.

Also, just re-read the Noble Demon page, and (I quote): "Their goals are evil but their means, not so much." Kuvira is quite the opposite of that actually; her goal (to protect the Earth Empire and prevent it from falling into disarray) is perfectly heroic and respectable; it's the means she uses to reach that goal (blackmailing Earth Kingdom provinces into joining, using bandits to entrave the Airbender so they'll have no choice but to go to her, invading Zaofu, creating obviously dangerous weapons, treatening everyone who disagrees with her on the drop of a hat...) that are villainous. So not only is she not a Noble Demon, she actually is the opposite- namely a Well Intentioned Extremist.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

at this point, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue about

You said I only considered Superman OP (quote): "when it suits my argument". I said that I consider OP, despite Bruce getting the better of him. You said that's only because of the writers, which I said I'm already aware of.

It's keeping track of the discussion.

Kuvira doesn't explain later that this was her intention, and the writers didn't state it was the case.

So the character and the writers have to explicitly say it?

You mean like when she made a dramatic New Era Speech in front of the entire nations during the Coronation?

Different situation entirely. One was a combat scenario with a new territory on the line, the other was a declaration of sovereignty. That's like trying to compare a gunfight to a boardroom meeting.

"Their goals are evil but their means, not so much."

With "not so much" being the operative phrase. A noble demon can still take hostages to use as leverage (for example), but he may treat them well so long as they co-operate. They may destroy the heroe's hometown, but only after they're certain everyone has evacuated it first. Or he may give them what he feels is sufficient time to escape before burning it to the ground.

Negotiations ended quickly because Su wouldn't co-operate with her either time. When Su blew her off the first time, Kuvira lost patience and give Su a piece of her mind, before she stormed out. Which is why she asked Korra to talk to Su for her the second time and you saw where that went.

Kuvira could have excuted Su and her sons for their assassination attempt, but she didn't. She gave Korra a chance to fight on their behalf and for the city. That's three separate offers, two of which could have been peaceful.

You can argue that Kuvira's army was camped outside the city, but as Lin pointed out, it didn't have to get to that point. Lin tried to warn her about what was coming and Su ignored her, until they were outside her door. Kuvira also said she would've stepped aside and let Su take command, because she thought Su should've been the one to restore order the Earth Kingdom and lead them. Su wouldn't do it, even though she was occupying Earth Kingdom territory.

So Kuvira decided she'd take back what rightfully belonged to the Earth Kingdom and lead it herself. Also, noble demon and well-intentioned extremist can overlap.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

You said I only considered Superman OP (quote): "when it suits my argument". I said that I consider OP, despite Bruce getting the better of him. You said that's only because of the writers, which I said I'm already aware of.

And that's relevant, how?

So the character and the writers have to explicitly say it?

YES! Not always, but in this specific case, this isn't something that appears as obvious. You have to state it at some point, or at least show a flashback or something to make it clear that it really was what was going on in Kuvira's head; body language can only convey messages so far. Again, the fact you are the first person I ever met to formulate the belief this was what the scene meant, and that it was never brought up on any of the trope pages, proof this explanation isn't as obvious as you think.

Also, as I said after rewatching it: Kuvira never gave an aside glance to Opal and Jinora when she was about to kill Korra. She had her eyes fixated on Korra, and didn't give the impression she was waiting for anything, just sharpening her blades before going for the kill. So even your evidences are false. I'm sorry, but if this really is how you remember the scene, I fear you are remembering it wrong.

With "not so much" being the operative phrase. A noble demon can still take hostages to use as leverage (for example), but he may treat them well so long as they co-operate. They may destroy the heroe's hometown, but only after they're certain everyone has evacuated it first. Or he may give them what he feels is sufficient time to escape before burning it to the ground.

You miss the point entirely. As I clearly said, a Noble Demon is a villain who really has an evil goal but use not so evil means/has a code. Kuvira has good motives and use bad means to get to it. She is a Well Intentioned Extremist, not a Noble Demon: she doesn't sees herself as evil, but as a ruthless Anti Hero doing what's necessary for her nation. I don't see why you oppose this, since that doesn't remotely make her any less complex.

Also, a Noble Demon "will never go the extra mile to be evil". Again, Kuvira tried to execute a traitor by using her as a guinea pig for her equivalent of a nuclear weapon. That does sound going the extra mile to be evil to me.

Negotiations ended quickly because Su wouldn't co-operate with her either time. When Su blew her off the first time, Kuvira lost patience and give Su a piece of her mind, before she stormed out.

Yes, she lost patience. As she does regularly over the course of the show. Because that's Kuvira's primary flaw. And please, if you lose patience after a few seconds of negociations, you aren't even trying.

Kuvira could have excuted Su and her sons for their assassination attempt, but she didn't. She gave Korra a chance to fight on their behalf and for the city.

She couldn't execute Su and her sons for diplomatic reasons, as killing them might have revolved Zaofu's inhabitants so much they would fight to the death, causing more loss on her side; using them as hostages was much more valuable. That's one of the most basic rules of war when you have a major ruler as your prisonner. And as I said multiple times already, the duel with Korra allowed her to take Zaofu without a fight, thus again sparing her more loss in her troops that she would need for the invasion of Republic City. She was being pragmatic both times, not giving offers.

So Kuvira decided she'd take back what rightfully belonged to the Earth Kingdom and lead it herself.

Yep. So, Well Intentioned Extremist.

Also, noble demon and well-intentioned extremist can overlap

... actually that one is an interesting point. Can they really overlap, given their respective descriptions seem pretty opposite to each other? I mean, they both are Anti Villains obviously, but does that mean they are compatible? I honestly don't know on that one.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

Again, the fact that you are the first person I ever met to formulate the belief this was what the scene meant, and that it was never brought up on any of the trope pages

Trope pages aren't definitive, it's one of the main reasons they're constantly being edited. A lot of things only become apparent with a second or third viewing, or if someone else points it out.

On Michael Bay's section of the ERB character page, no one noticed the giant "V" shaped explosion that went off behind him, just as no one caught the Street Fighter pun Gretzky used in his rap battle against Tony Hawk. I caught both of those right away and added them in both their respective character sections.

Yes, she lost patience. If you lose patience after a few seconds of negotiations, you aren't even trying.

It wasn't the fisrt time she reached out to Su, it was the first time we saw it happen onscreen. But the during the three years Korra was missing, Kuvira had already tried negotiating with Su multiple times. Just like Lin tried to warn Su multiple times during the same period.

Su continued to bury her head in the sand, until Kuvira's army finally came knocking.

Can they really overlap given their respective descriptions seem pretty opposite each other?

Sometimes. Two of the best two examples I can think of would Sylvaria Bles (from Valkyria Chronicles) and Reimi Jahana (Variable Geo). However, explaing either of them properly would take a lot of writing and involve a few spoilers. So it'd be easier to browse their respective character sections.

Plus, I think we've derailed the comment section long enough (almost 40 posts), so I'll probably leave it at this. It was fun chatting with you.

01/23/2018 00:00:00

Trope pages aren\'t definitive, it\'s one of the main reasons they\'re constantly being edited. A lot of things only become apparent with a second or third viewing, or if someone else points it out.

And yet it\'s been years since the show has ended and nobody had pointed out your nonsense. Go ahead, try editting these pages to add this theory and present it as fact. I\'m ready to bet you it\'ll be erased after a while with people pointing out it\'s just a theory with no concrete proof.

It wasn\'t the fisrt time she reached out to Su, it was the first time we saw it happen onscreen. But the during the three years Korra was missing, Kuvira had already tried negotiating with Su multiple times. Just like Lin tried to warn Su multiple times during the same period.

Correction, she tried to reach out for Su to join force with her and help rebuild the Earth Kingdom multiple times. That\'s a completely different situation than trying to negociate them being annexed to the Earth Empire despite being an independant nation while having an army at their doors. Not even comparable. While Su had been vocal in her disapproval of what Kuvira was doing, she didn\'t actively opposed her beyond asking her to stop and certainly didn\'t open hostilities. You are going into borderline Draco in Leather Pants territory here. You do realize Kuvira is supposed to be in the wrong in all of this, right? Sure, Su had her part of responsability, but this in no way justifies what Kuvira did.

Sometimes. Two of the best two examples I can think of would Sylvaria Bles (from Valkyria Chronicles) and Reimi Jahana (Variable Geo). However, explaing either of them properly would take a lot of writing and involve a few spoilers. So it\'d be easier to browse their respective character sections.

Thanks for no additional spoiler I guess.

Plus, I think we\'ve derailed the comment section long enough (almost 40 posts), so I\'ll probably leave it at this. It was fun chatting with you.

Glad if it was for you.

01/25/2018 00:00:00

When you judge a character OUTSIDE of a setting it becomes meaningless. Everything can only be compared. How should I best put it... Captain America is OP, since he has indestrucuble shield and has mastery of matial arts. Actually, no, he isn\'t, since he ONLY goes against Red Skull, who had him lose his sidekick, and had himself cornered many times. Heck, he has been killed from behind after being arrested in one story. Superman is OP, because he has all these powers. No, he\'s not OP. He goes against Darkseid, Doomsday and some Mogul, who actually beat him heavly. Doomsday killed him. Supes is not about powers, it\'s about his ideoligy(no kill, if I remember) against opponets who can kill HIM, if he doesn\'t them.


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