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shinfernape Ascetic warrior Since: Jun, 2011
Ascetic warrior
07/12/2016 12:25:33 •••

Both boring and dumb

Let's start with the dumb:

  • The film drops loads of references to Avengers characters; with absolutely next to no mention of SHIELD agent Hawkeye. (Can't have too many bird-named heroes in one movie).

  • Most of the movies problems involve technology, no attempt to reach Tony Stark/Ironman. (Heck was War Machine out of the question?)

  • Villains shooting guns, rifles, grenade launchers and miniguns; Captain America doesn't even use a 9mm. (Wait isn't this the same Captain America who used guns AND his shield in the first movie? Did the deep freeze kill his brain cells?)

  • Pierce doesn't activate the killing badges when Black Widow starts fighting to take control. (Just senile with age?)

Really the list goes on and on, so onto the boring. The movie is in excess of two hours so all those explosions and guns lose their lustre after a while. Most of the fight scenes are filmed with good old shaky cam, a practice that is praised by pretty much no one. What disappoints the most is that the trailers show the Universal I mean Winter Soldier as being so unstoppable that he's beating around Captain America like a rag doll. Unfortunately Captain America is so steroid-induced that he doesn't lose, which lowers the stakes and adds to the boredom.

The only thing that resonates well with this movie is trust issues. So don't trust the reviews saying this movie is good as they are either naïve or just lying.

JamesPicard Since: Jun, 2012
04/26/2014 00:00:00

Um, I'm sorry, who are you to tell us we're wrong for liking this move? Just because you think it's stupid doesn't mean everyone who likes it is naïve. If anything, you're the naïve one for thinking your opinion is the only correct one. You're free to think the movie's dumb if you want, and I'm sorry you don't like it, but don't go around touting your opinion as superior. That's rude, counterproductive, and just plain tacky.

I'm a geek.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/26/2014 00:00:00

Two of your four complaints of the seemingly neverending list seem to be 'It's a Captain America movie, but he doesn't call any other Avengers (which he obviously couldn't do because it's a Captain America movie, not The Avengers 2.)' The others aren't much better - Captain America doesn't use guns because he doesn't need guns, and Pierce doesn't activate the killing badges because people tend to keep hostages alive.

There's also a downright lie - kind of ironic in a review that says all positive reviews are lies - in which you say Captain America never loses to the Winter Soldier. The Winter Soldier's basically invincible until Cap, Black Widow and Falcon ALL tag-team him, and even then it's a hard-fought battle. At the end there is a one-on-one, but... why would you complain that the hero of the movie beats the villain of the movie unless you were watching the movie solely to nitpick at inevitabilities?

Bad, bad review.

GrigorII Since: Aug, 2011
04/26/2014 00:00:00

There's a section called "Headscratchers" to discuss the things that should have happened, or why did things happened the way they did and not another way. Still, that's just a fan game. When you review a film, you should consider it as it is, not as you would like it to be. The absence of the other Avengers is completely reasonable if you watch this film as what it is, a film; and the same goes for Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World. Have in mind that, for films, The Avengers was the closest thing to a superhero Crisis Crossover that you may ever have.

Ultimate Secret Wars
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@ Elmo nice try.

Firstly, Black Widow is both a member of SHIELD and the AVENGERS and is in this movie. Hawkeye is a member of SHIELD and an AVENGER but is NOT in this movie for absolutely no reason.

Secondly, other Avengers characters have popped up in the single hero movies so because they have done so before, it should have been an option. Bruce Banner was in Iron man 3 and Tony Stark was in The Incredible Hulk. They all live in the same universe and they do team up. So why on Earth don't they join up when MILLIONS of people's lives on the line?

Thirdly, they don't all tag team Winter Soldier. Cap manages to know of Winter Soldier's mask all on his own. Of course the hero is gonna win but the fact that the advertising was misleading is what annoys me. All the trailers showed the Winter Soldier basically manhandling Captain America but the movie shows otherwise. Misleading + invincible hero = annoyance.

So no the review stands, your points do not.

A wish is never free.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@James Picard

If you can actually discredit my points than have a shot. Otherwise my points stand and this movie does suck. If you do like long movies filled with the brim with shaky cam then I am sure this movie is your cup of team. But you cannot, say this movie wasn't dumb. For that you'd have to counter my points.

@ Grigorll see the points I made with Elmo.

A wish is never free.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

Elmo

Furthermore. The Captain does need guns because he's put on the defensive when being shot at and the plan to charge the guy with the minigun is both incredibly dumb and incredibly risky.

Pierce could activate individual badges. So he could have killed Black Widow and kept the others alive as leverage.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/27/2014 00:00:00

I'm not going to defend every possible plothole the movie could have, just saying it's elitist to say that one or two plotholes of little importance = Awful irredeemable movie and if you like it you must be an idiot. Good luck finding ANY movie that doesn't have a few of those. And a lot of your points still either make little sense, or so little difference to the movie that I don't see why anyone would care so much.

Bruce Banner was in Iron Man 3 and Tony Stark was in The Incredible Hulk. Yeah, as 5-second cameos right at the end. Tony Stark has a cameo in this movie as a target of the Helicarrier. Happy now? And like I said, they already had Black Widow and Nick Fury in this movie, any more and it would look more like 'The Avengers 2'. Which it isn't.

If Captain America had guns, every fight scene would've been incredibly boring. Simple answer there.

As for the invincible hero, I don't think you have any idea what that term means. A hero who wins effortlessly and never shows any signs of losing is invincible. That does not sound like Captain America. You make it sound like the Winter Soldier is a pushover, when every encounter with him is a close call, and he wins a lot of them. Captain America is as 'invincible' as Batman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, or basically any superhero in a movie that wasn't Watchmen since movies began.

I have nothing against you not liking the movie, I'm sure you like movies that I don't. It's just the patronizing way in which you're treating your opinion as if it's the only valid one in existence, while insulting everyone else's.

TomWithNoNumbers Since: Dec, 2010
04/27/2014 00:00:00

One of the things I liked about this film is how much they downplayed Captain America's strength. They drew a line where Cap could beat mooks but not without breaking a sweat if they had any type of advantage over him. (It was weird that the jumping guy could go toe-to-toe though. I think that was a cameo that didn't really think about the implications.) It's going to make the next Avengers possibly feel a bit weird if Cap can suddenly mow through superpowered folks again, but it was nice to have a hero who actually felt fragile. When Cap jumps through a window it hurts.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@ elmo

I'm not talking about every movies plotholes only this one.

Cameos or not they did feature which proves they can crossover. Sure, they can't possibly get in every Avenger like Thor but just a reasonable explanation would have been enough. Otherwise these "intelligence services" folks look like dopes and that's what ruins the movie.

Being "boring" isn't a sufficient reason for not carrying firearms. Furthermore, the movie is chock full of guns with virtually every one of Caps buddies using some.

It isn't really a close call because when the throw down in the helicarrier Cap says the clichéd line "don't make me do this". He knows he can whoop Winter Soldier's ass because he did it the first time. All those heroes you listed have gotten whooped in one-on-one fights. Batman lost to Bane, Spiderman was getting thrashed by the Lizard and Ironman couldn't do squat against Whiplash without backup.

You know what, I freely admit I like some really bad movies i.e. Street Fighter, Commando etc. But I admit that they are bad on many levels such as storyline and whatnot. I am not some avante-garde type, I am happy with a trashy fun movie when it knows it is stupid. My problem is with movies that take themselves seriously and yet are stupid on just so many levels.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/27/2014 00:00:00

"Being boring isn't a sufficient reason for not carrying firearms." It is when you're in a movie. I'll take your complaints seriously when you stop railing against the movie for doing things that movies have to do. Such as limiting the cast so that Captain America remains the main character. Here's a reasonable explanation for why they couldn't cross over - It's a Captain America movie! They had 3 of the 7 main cast from The Avengers, any more and it would barely be a Captain America movie. I didn't get upset when Daredevil didn't turn up.

It isn't really a close call? Did you only see the last third of the movie? What about the first time they met? And the second? The fact that Cap says one line that shows hesitance in fighting is no indication that he knows he'll win, and to say that is to ignore Cap's entire motivation to not fight Bucky.

Sure, Batman lost to Bane, but then he won, which apparently makes him boring and invincible. Ditto for Spider-Man and Iron Man. In fact, it's incredibly similar to Cap's movie - first he's outclassed, then it's more of an even fight, then he wins. That's literally exactly what happens between Iron Man and Whiplash, Batman and Bane, and Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

A movie has to take itself seriously, even if it's about a man in a flag costume throwing a shield at Nazis. And the fact that most of your points are either easily explained by the words 'It's a movie,' utterly trivial and unimportant, or in the case of Cap VS Winter Soldier, just plain wrong, mean that while it's fine and dandy not to like a movie, labelling anyone who does as 'naive or lying' while liking other movies you think are bad on many levels, is kind of hypocritical.

BigBusterBrown Since: Feb, 2014
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@shinfernape

"Pierce could activate individual badges. So he could have killed Black Widow and kept the others alive as leverage."

"Villains shooting guns, rifles, grenade launchers and miniguns; Captain America doesn't even use a 9mm."

Nick Fury was there and within shooting distance. So no he couldn't do that without risking getting killed himself. Cap does steal a 9mm and use it at the start of the film. He never uses one again because he's Captain America, the guy with the shield. Tony Stark helped build the three giant helicarriers that kill thirty million people. Even though all of the movies problems involve tech, no tries to reach stark because Cap and widow are now fugitives on the run, Fury is supposed to be dead, and Pierce wants Tony dead too, so he probably wouldn't let anyone from shield contact him. It's Iron Patriot now. There was no shaky cam in Winter Soldier. And Why are you complaining about cap not using enough guns but expecting Hawkeye to show up with his bow and arrows. Also fuck Hawkeye.

"Cap says the clichéd line "don't make me do this". He knows he can whoop Winter Soldier's ass because he did it the first time."

Or maybe he didn't want to fight his long lost friend, because he's not an asshole. Your issues with the movie are just plain nonsensical. Your review and comments are nothing but cherry-picked nitpicking you can point out in any and every single movie. And the constant references to Avengers is called fan service.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

^

Now you're just being silly. Daredevil isn't established in this universe; all those other characters are. Your arguments are just getting more and more farfetched. Have you forgotten that Captain America used guns AND his shield in the first movie? There's a word you seem to need to understand the meaning of. It's called continuity.

Let's not forget the title of the first movie. Captain America: THE FIRST AVENGER. It was Avengers related from the get go and as I keep having to state; there have been crossovers.

Captain America damages Winter Soldier's metal arm, knocks of his mask and gives him a suplex in their proper fight. On the helicarrier, Captain America strangles Winter Soldier and could have killed him promptly thereafter. Captain America just straight up dominates the fights. You have undermined your own argument by saying that is would be "boring" for Captain America to use guns. Why? Because you said he apparently has no real need of them, whereas you did not make the same argument for Winter Soldier. Therefore you have all but acknowledged that Captain America is the more dominant force.

Batman lost to Bane. Which does not make him boring since he has to work to overcome his foe. Captain America never loses in this movie, unlike Batman he doesn't need fancy toys or even basic guns apparently.

On the one hand you say the movie has to take itself seriously. On the other you're saying "it's a movie". Are you unable to see the contradiction in your own argument?

It's not hypocritical to like the movies I listed because they are classed as "so bad it's good". To actually overinflate the quality of a movie is most definitely the result of naivety or deception. Those movies I listed don't take themselves seriously and that's why they can be enjoyed for being "just movies". Captain America does take itself seriously and thus it cannot be afforded leniency as it cannot get the same suspense of disbelief, since it believes in itself so much.

A wish is never free.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@ Big Buster Brown

"There was no shaky cam in Winter Soldier"

Really?

"I’m not going to beat the shaky cam drum again, but come on." http://www.craveonline.co.uk/film/reviews/669591-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-second-opinion

There are many more reviewers pointing out that there is shaky cam.

You are telling straight up lies. I rest my case.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/27/2014 00:00:00

'To actively overinflate the quality of a movie is most definitely the result of naivety or deception.'

To be fair, I am defending the movie because I personally liked it. That's my opinion. The problem is you seem to think that the only quality this movie has is the quality that YOU give it, and you say that anyone who enjoyed it is either naive, or lying. If you don't see how pretentious or egotistic this is, you may need help.

I am unable to see the contradiction in my own argument because you very kindly failed to point any out. A movie has to take itself seriously. It's a movie. Where's the contradiction here? The directors and actors of Street Fighter were taking it seriously. Didn't stop them having plotholes by the truckload.

'There have been crossovers.' Well congratulations, but this clearly wasn't one of them, and your continuous failure to recognize this and blame the movie instead of your lax judgement is embarrassing. And if you like crossovers so much, this movie has Cap, Black Widow, Nick Fury, Falcon, Maria Hill, and a teaser at the end showing Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. Was that not enough? Did you maybe want the X-Men to appear too? And then Ghost Rider?

I am almost convinced that you haven't even seen the movie because every time that I bring up how Captain America is not invincible and has a lot of trouble fighting various enemies, you stick your head in the sand and repeat that he never loses, a straight up lie considering how quickly he loses track of the Winter Soldier the first time they fight, when he catches Cap's shield without looking and throws it back with more precision and power than Cap has. Cap struggles against Batroc the Leaper for crying out loud. And big whoop, he damages someone's arm and knocks their mask off - that does not equal victory. You're changing the boundaries of words just to create things to be annoyed about.

The continuity argument is pathetic. Captain America used guns once, so he should always use guns. Never mind that it would make every fight scene boring. Never mind that there's a perfect example above of how they updated Falcon in a non-canon way that made him more entertaining. Never mind that, because continuity must always come before entertainment.

I'll completely admit there's a shaky cam but I thought it worked decently to portray the fast-paced, always-moving action scenes. Again, it's fine if you don't like the movie, it's just not fine to say 'I didn't like this movie so it's objectively bad, if you disagree you're an idiot, plus here's a small list of incredibly minor nitpicks to prove that I am correct!'

BigBusterBrown Since: Feb, 2014
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@ shinfersnape

If there was shaky cam, it wasn't noticeable in the slightest and definitely was not Jason Bourne level shakiness. I notice you didn't point out any of the other stuff I mentioned. You can't pass off the rest of that as lies.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/27/2014 00:00:00

@ elmo

You like the movie but why? There is just so much wrong with it.

No you really can't see the contradiction in your own argument. You said this movie takes itself seriously and then on the other hand you said 'It's a movie,' as if to say it can't be taken seriously. Once again you show how incorrect you are about matters. The director of the Street Fighter Movie said it was meant to be humorous. Get your facts straight.

This is a about getting characters that matter. Iron man could have helped out, so could Iron Patriot/War Machine. So where were they? Movie can't be bothered.

Yeah like that rooftop fiasco was a fight. The next time I play a game of frizby I'll be sure to call it a throw down. He wins against the Algerian, end of. No need to go hospital no band aids and no stretcher. It is a victory since Captain America gave Winter Soldier a suplex and was in better condition then Winter Soldier.

Continuity argument is based on reason. If you don't like reason well tough. No wonder you like this film if you have such gripes.

I wasted my hard-earned money to see this movie because I heard it was good. I do have a problem to all those people who have made me lose both time and money on this film.

@ Big Buster Brown I really don't have the time to deal with you. You messed up on one of your points in your tirade against me and I made note of it to make you revaluate your opinions.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/27/2014 00:00:00

Why do I like the movie? I thought it was good, characters were well-acted and believable, Chris Evans was great as a man of simple values who finds himself out of time and struggles to decide what's the right thing to do. Action scenes were incredible, especially the Winter Soldier's and Falcon's. And the idea of SHIELD itself, the big peacekeeping organization of the world, being infiltrated and turned bad was big enough to hold my attention, as well as making HYDRA more of a credible threat in the Marvel Universe. Plus, with Black Widow, Nick Fury, Falcon, etc... I thought they managed to fit in more than enough characters and give them each ample screentime, while not leaving anyone feeling underdeveloped.

Wow, just wow. I never ever ever ever said that's 'It's a movie' implied that it can't be taken seriously. You're putting words in my mouth, then disagreeing with an argument you invented. I say 'It's a movie' because if the movie was realistic, played completely into continuity's favour, and brought in Iron Man and other Avengers, it would be over in 5 minutes with no action and cinemas full of disappointed people.

I'm just going to move on from the Iron Man point because it's becoming clearer to me that if you're too stupid to realise that a movie named 'Captain America' might not feature Iron Man, then there's nothing I can do for you. If you expected Iron Man and were disappointed then it's your own fault for expecting what was clearly the wrong thing.

I'd love to see your frisbee games if they take place between trained soldiers on rooftops, post-assassination attempt. It was an encounter, and Captain America was most certainly not successful. Doesn't sound very invincible to me.

Your continuity argument is based on reason. Mine is too. The reason being 'Entertainment is a bigger priority than continuity'. Don't get me wrong, continuity is certainly nice, but if you had to choose between something boring with continuity, or something with more artistic license that was entertaining... well, I know what I'd choose.

When I see a bad movie, I tend to learn from the experience and try to avoid similar movies in the future, instead of blaming people worldwide who liked it. That way, I don't annoy other people, and in turn they don't think I'm an unreasonable egotist who can't see past my own opinion.

I wouldn't talk down to Big Buster Brown when you've been misintrepetting lines left and right, both from the movie and from me, and blaming the movie for not accomplishing things it never set out to achieve, nor claimed to.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/28/2014 00:00:00

^ Action scenes: Full of fast cutting and shaky cam.

So no they weren't good.

Actors: passable.

None are getting any Oscar nominations.

Premise: Own organisation turns against one of its own.

Completely lazy and redone. See Jason Bourne, Salt and a bunch of other secret agent/ spy movies.

So no, I can't say this is a good movie.

As for HYDRA infiltratin SHIELD. That was a big turn but they could have done much more with it. Like they dealt with infiltration in the Secret Invasion.

No you did say 'It's a movie,'. Those are you're words. You really don't get it do you? I am not asking for Iron man and co to drop in. I am asking for why the movie couldn't bother to give valid reasons for Iron man and others to jump in. If a serious movie can't do that then it becomes very stupid.

Yeah Captain America sure wasn't successful in driving off a ruthless and successful assasin from killing Nick Fury. Exactly who got what they wanted out of that? Winter Soldier was fleeing rather than take on Cap and that's that.

You seem to think the movie couldn't do both continuity and entertainment. Geuss what? Good movies actually can do both.

When I see a bad movie I warn others to avoid it like the plague. Which is what I am doing with this one.

Big Buster Brown came at me with lies. But if you wanna join forces with them then you've sided with the ignorat. Which doesn't surprise me too mcuh.

A wish is never free.
doctrainAUM Since: Aug, 2010
04/28/2014 00:00:00

Personally, I'd rather side with an ignorat than with someone who insists that their own opinions are objectively true and anyone who thinks otherwise is willfully deceiving themselves and the buying public.

"What's out there? What's waiting for me?"
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/28/2014 00:00:00

Every counter you made re: Why I liked the movie is nothing more than your opinion, which I (semi-)respectfully disagree with, so that doesn't accomplish much.

I did say 'It's a movie' several times, but I never assigned it the meaning you did, I only meant you shouldn't complain about things that have no explanation in-story if they have a very obvious explanation out of the story. And if all you wanted from Iron Man was a reason why he couldn't appear, well, that's just the most unimportant nitpick I've ever heard. There's a reason you're the first person I've seen who complained about that.

You're either misremembering or lying when you talk about Captain America 'driving off' the assassin. When a trained assassin seemingly kills someone, you don't want to 'drive them off', you want to catch them. I hope you don't work in law enforcement. Cap wanted to catch him, he failed. Winter Soldier wanted to evade capture, he succeeded. This is not the first time you have misinterpretted events of the movie and grown angry over your own misinterpretation.

Good movies can do continuity and entertainment? True, but I never said they couldn't. I merely asked which was more important, and have stated time and time again that changes to continuity were made to help the entertainment. Reason provided.

Warning others to avoid this movie? That's not what you said you were doing, you said you held the people who liked this movie personally responsible for the time you 'wasted' watching it. Giving a movie a bad review is fine. Giving a movie a bad review and saying that it's impossible for anyone intelligent (well, not naive) to have enjoyed it is pretentious and self-centred.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/28/2014 00:00:00

^

It's not unimportant why a billionaire weapons genius who can build powered armour suits is not called upon in a movies about "inteligence" services and a movie that takes itself so seriously. For any type of media there is a degree of suspension of disbelied, but that gets easily shattered by stupidity that can be found in such a movie.

No Winter Soldier wanted to Kill Nick Fury. He failed. That was his primary objective which was denied by Captain America. He isn't going to report to his superiors with the quip that he threw Captain's shield really hard. So no.

No what you have all but admitted is that this movie cannot do both continuity and try to entertain. I reckon it failed on both levels.

When I wrote this review I used the word naive. I understand that some people mgiht not have watched enough movies as others. I have brought up knowledge of camera techniques, past films and in universe content. You're arguments as to why you like the movie simply don't draw extensively enough. With such grand explanations like "Action scenes were incredible" without going just a little deeper other than naming a few charachters I find your arguments lacking meat.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/28/2014 00:00:00

If you find my arguments lacking meat, that's very unfortunate - luckily for me, it doesn't matter in the slightest because I'm not trying to persuade you that it's objectively a good movie, just explaining why I like it. You've brought up knowledge of camera techniques and past films but there's no fact behind them, only opinion. Bringing up shaky-cam? I thought the shaky-cam worked well. Didn't think the acting was good? I did. Are you trying to disprove my own opinion... to me?

It is my opinion (and many others,) that it is incredibly unimportant why Iron Man was not in a movie that was not about Iron Man, never said it would be about Iron Man, and was in fact, named after a completely different character to Iron Man! Disappointed? Blame yourself for expecting the wrong thing.

The Winter Soldier was NOT denied by Captain America. He was denied by Nick Fury's 'Faking The Dead' ploy. Winter Soldier didn't win, but Cap left that scene with one assassin he tried to stop (and failed), and one mentor he would've liked to stop getting shot (which he failed at.) Doesn't sound like a victory to me.

I thought the movie found a good balance between continuity and entertainment. But that's just my opinion after all. Just like it's your opinion that it failed.

By all means, if it makes you feel better to imagine that every single person who enjoyed the movie a) Hasn't seen as many movies as you, b) Doesn't know the general term for a basic camera technique, or c) Has no knowledge of the Marvel Universe, then feel free to continue lying to yourself in order to feel a false sense of superiority over those you disagree with. It couldn't possibly be that people have different opinions, and they're all correct in their own way, right?

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/28/2014 00:00:00

I said the acting was passable. I am saying why I disagree with what most of what you found to be good or above average.

Yet again I must point out that it is not the exclusion of Iron man and co that bothers; it is the lack of compelling reasons to do so in such a serious movie. Surprisingly I knew that not every avenger would be in the movie, an explanation could have at least shown they put some more thought in.

See the trope Double Tap. Yes he was denies because pros are meant to use more than one shot to make 100% sure they kill the mark. Even if he used more than one, it simply wasn't enough. Bottomline is that the Winter Soldier failed in his objective thanks to SUPER soldier Captain America.

^

I don't see how the balance can be described as "good" and I have gone over the reasons why.

No I have seen no evidence to the contrary. "people have different opinions, and they're all correct in their own way"

Opinions change when the bars are set lower or higher. I don't know how high your bar is set, but you've made it abundantly clear that you like this movie with the Michael Bay view of things except it really is supposed to be serious movie not an action comedy.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/28/2014 00:00:00

Let's try and make things clear since we're going absolutely nowhere.

'They should've included a compelling reason why Iron Man wasn't in the movie'. I disagree. In my opinion, it was not important. That opinion is shared by many. The end.

'The Winter Soldier failed thanks to Captain America'. I disagree. He/Cap/Everyone thought that he had killed Nick Fury. Nick Fury saved himself by faking death. And just because Winter Soldier fails in his objective doesn't mean Captain America wins. Cap loses his target and Nick Fury is (apparently) dead. Just because things could've ended worse does not mean you can honestly call it a victory. At least, in my opinion.

'I don't see how the balance can be described as good'. Clearly I can. Opinions. Are you getting a running theme here?

Seen no evidence to the contrary of what?

'You've made it abundantly clear that you like this movie with the Michael Bay view of things'

Never actually seen a Michael Bay movie, but that's not my point. Remember my last comment? That part where I said that you kept trying to put down everyone who disagreed with you so that you could try and feel a false sense of superiority over them? Well, thanks for providing me with the best example yet!

The sooner you accept that it is possible for someone to enjoy something that you don't, and that doesn't make them less intelligent than you, the better we will all be for it.

JamesPicard Since: Jun, 2012
04/28/2014 00:00:00

Throwing my hat back in the ring, I never said the movie wasn't dumb, I said you were free to think that it is. Again, if you don't like it, that's perfectly fine, though I'm sorry you feel like you wasted 2 1/2 hours and ≥15 bucks. I just wish you'd stop equating 'I think this is dumb' to 'Everyone who likes it must be dumb'. I don't like Michael Bay films either, but I know plenty of smart people who do. I think The Dark Knight is a bit too preachy, but plenty of intelligent people I know love it. Opinions aren't facts. The only fact is that you think CA: TWS is stupid. So please, quit trying to force your opinion on others. Really, how does it hurt you that other people liked this? Enjoying a movie isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing. It means that some people came out feeling better than when they came in. Is happiness really stupid? Is enjoyment naïve? I don't think so, and I doubt you do either. Yes, the movie could have done some things better. But you know what? So could every movie, and for me, the pros outweigh the cons. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way, but please stop trying to tell me that I'm wrong, and please stop doing the same to everyone else who liked it. If you're really that upset about it, then you're much better off watching something you really love and forgetting all about this movie.

I'm a geek.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/29/2014 00:00:00

^^

You say it's not important but you keep forgetting that this is a serious movie. It does matter because people are asking where are the rest.

Again see the trope Double Tap. You like to say opinions whereas I'm stating facts here. The Winter Soldier did not kill Nick Fury.

Your opinions are quite vapid and that's the problem. You don't see the link between rational and opinions.

I see no evidence that the people who like this movie have really thought it through. I wouldn't give a toss if this movie was dumb if it were an action comedy, parody etc. But the fact that it is straight-faced means I cannot go easy on it.

This ain't about feeling superior. There's no tier system for viewership.

If you do enjoy the movie, then just write a review rather than getting all upset about negative review. Say you're piece and let that speak for itself.

A wish is never free.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
04/29/2014 00:00:00

You keep saying this is a serious movie, therefore the character most prone to being comic relief even when he's headlining should've shown up. Strikes me as kinda weird, but okay, whatever. Yeah, maybe there should've been an explanation as for why he didn't show up. Such a scene would've taken, what, a minute, not even? And yet it apparently would've fixed half your issues with the film somehow. You're calling other people vapid and naive and yet the crux of your argument is that something one could easily come up with half a dozen excuses for is a massive plothole because it wasn't exposited to the audience. You are, essentially, asking for a movie you already consider dumb to further talk down to its audience.

As for whether Cap wins in his initial fight against the Winter Soldier—well, if Cap wins, whose perspective does he win from? Certainly not his own, Nick's dead and the enemy combatant escaped. Not from Winter Soldier's or HYDRA, who despite the Double Tap rule seem fairly convinced Nick is dead. And not from the perspective of anyone at SHIELD except for Nick and a select few doctors, because everyone's convinced he's dead. The only perspective Cap wins from is the audience's, and even then that relies on a specific set of extranarrative knowledge like how many films Jackson signed on for. So really, the movie is taking itself seriously by dealing with reality as the characters see it.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/29/2014 00:00:00

"You say it's not important but you keep forgetting that this is a serious movie." You say it is important but you keep forgetting that to many, many people, it isn't. Here's a question I'd love to see you answer; If it's only important to you, why do you act like it's important to everyone?

'They should've explained why Iron Man wasn't in it.' That is your opinion and it will never be more than that. Get over it.

"You like to state opinions whereas I'm stating facts." The Winter Soldier did not kill Nick Fury. That is indeed a fact. This means he failed and Captain America succeeded. That is an opinion. I'm getting tired of stated the same old thing which you continually ignore.

"I see no evidence that the people who like this movie have really thought it through." So despite having misinterpretted several lines and events yourself, you think anyone who enjoyed this movie hasn't thought it through as much as you are. So you think you've thought the movie through more than everyone in the world who enjoyed it. And then the next thing you say is that this isn't about feeling superior. Wow.

I wrote my opinions of the movie in the comments here and you disagreed about all of them, so I don't see why you're complaining that I'm disagreeing with your's.

FullBlast Since: Sep, 2013
04/29/2014 00:00:00

Ok to throw in my own opinion about this. To go off on what Elmo has previously stated about Iron Man appearing in this movie. Even if Iron man had a good reason to make a cameo in this movie, wouldn't that ultimately result in what I'll call the Wolverine Effect. The Wolverine Effect is when a popular character from a certain series or media shows up in a related piece of media (in this case Stark in a Cap movie) and ultimately dominates that piece of media even if it isn't directly about that said character. Iron man coming in to disable his own tech should make the title look something like this, Captain America 2....Until Iron Man shows up and hijacks the plot and makes 15 bajillion snarks about how SHIELD can't operate without his help...plus the Winter Soldier and shit.

Again even if Iron Man has a decent reason to come into the movie, the way I see it, he would INSTANTLY derail Captain America and Co., given Iron Man's popularity, and then it would ultimately become more of an Iron Man 3.5 than it would be a sequel to the Cap A franchise.

I love being irrefutable
FullBlast Since: Sep, 2013
04/29/2014 00:00:00

Ok to throw in my own opinion about this. To go off on what Elmo has previously stated about Iron Man appearing in this movie. Even if Iron man had a good reason to make a cameo in this movie, wouldn't that ultimately result in what I'll call the Wolverine Effect. The Wolverine Effect is when a popular character from a certain series or media shows up in a related piece of media (in this case Stark in a Cap movie) and ultimately dominates that piece of media even if it isn't directly about that said character. Iron man coming in to disable his own tech should make the title look something like this, Captain America 2....Until Iron Man shows up and hijacks the plot and makes 15 bajillion snarks about how SHIELD can't operate without his help...plus the Winter Soldier and shit.

Again even if Iron Man has a decent reason to come into the movie, the way I see it, he would INSTANTLY derail Captain America and Co., given Iron Man's popularity, and then it would ultimately become more of an Iron Man 3.5 than it would be a sequel to the Cap A franchise.

Dude one last thing. You're coming off like an ass. Part of why I think people are backlashing you so much is because you're coming off like an ass. Sure you make some decent points here and there, but no-one's going to take it as seriously if you're coming off as a pompous ass who (looks like he) thinks his views automatically cancel out everyone else'.

I love being irrefutable
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/29/2014 00:00:00

^

The movie treats ITSELF as important. This ain't Loaded Weapon where Sam Jackson does headbanging which Charlie Sheen's bro while listening to Queen ok.

Ok the movie did not explain why Iron man couldn't lend a hand. But think of this for a second; what does that mean the directors think of you? Not highly it seems and you should be annoyed at them for thinking they can fob you off.

Misinterpretting what exactly? i have had one angry guy claim there wasn't any shaky-cam when oh boy was there. Then there is you who doesn't really want to be bothered by it, and spare yourself any intellectual effort. Even though, really this ain't rocket science. Iron man and Captain America were working together as a team.

Look I read people's reviews and then write my own because that is a more constructive way of doing things you know.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/29/2014 00:00:00

What does it mean the directors think of me? Personally I think it means they expect me to be smart enough to realise that if I walk into a Captain America movie expecting to see Iron Man, I am a gigantic buffoon. They also expect me to be smart enough to realise that if Iron Man doesn't appear, presumably he has a good reason. Maybe the events of Iron Man 3 were taking place at roughly the same time. I appreciate that the directors think I'm smart enough to figure this out for myself, instead of explaining to me what every single Marvel character was doing during the events of this movie. Thanks, directors!

Misinterpretting what? Well you completely butchered the meaning of one of Cap's quotes, a quote that showed he didn't want to fight Bucky because... friendship, and tried to make it sound as if he didn't want to fight because he would effortlessly win because you think he's invincible. You also misinterpretted your opinions to be facts in roughly every comment you've made so far.

I personally never said there wasn't shaky-cam, and again, you are falsely putting words in my mouth, saying that I 'don't really want to be bothered' by what you think is a problem in the movie. It couldn't possibly be that some people think shaky-cam is alright in small doses, could it? I mean, that would mean people had different opinions on things, and that's just impossible, right?

Honestly, I don't want to write a review because you would disagree with it and then there would be two Captain America movie reviews with ongoing arguments in the comments.

I'm not saying that you haven't thought the movie through, I am just saying that you've thought the movie through, come to your own conclusions, and then decided that your conclusions are the only correct conclusions in the world, which means everyone else is wrong.

Lightflame Since: Jan, 2010
04/29/2014 00:00:00

Ah reviews. Always a good fight going down in this place.

"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/29/2014 00:00:00

^

Are you getting this through your head! I am not looking for Iron man but an EXPLANATION. And I have mentioned this previously so many times but they have done CROSSOVERS.I hope this actually sinks in this time. They can treat you like a dumb punk because they think you are stupid and easy to please.

No once again I need to educate you using the entries of this site. See Don't Make Me Destroy You. What he is saying is closer in meaning to that. No I have used facts to back up my opinions.

I wasn't talking about you lying about shaky cam but some other guy. I wouldn't say there were small doses of shaky cam in this movie, if that's what you think than I shudder to think what you feel is excessive shaky-cam.

No if you wrote a review, I honestly wouldn't care to comment. Other people have spoken positively about this movie and I have not once commented on their reviews. I'd much rather write my own review rather than wasting so much time criticising other people's.

This all reminds me of Avatar. So many people loved that stupid movie and I was bored with it the first time and still am. If you give it time and watch a couple more movies in the next few years I'm sure you won't be so enthusiastic on this movie.

A wish is never free.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
04/29/2014 00:00:00

I'm pretty sure Iron Man 3 had the explanation of "Tony can't help out Cap right now because he destroyed all his suits."

Per the mods' repellant efforts to avoid all responsibility, I regret to announce this is the end of my time on TVT. I'm going now. Goodbye.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/29/2014 00:00:00

You seem angry. So angry that you read my first point on Iron Man and completely ignored everything else. The movie doesn't treat me as if I'm dumb - it treats me as if I'm smart enough to join the dots myself from time to time. Iron Man is missing. Why? Well, being Iron Man, he probably had his own stuff going on. There, mystery solved. Maybe you need to have everything explained to you every step of the way, but some people can figure things out for themselves. Most people, in fact. And once again, the directors treating people like idiots is not fact, but your opinion.

Again you need to educate me, although I don't recall the first time. What Cap is saying is closer in meaning to what you think? Do you have any proof, or is that just your opinion? Because I think differently, and so do the vast majority in regards to that line. You're taking your own interpretation of a line and using it to back up your opinion, only your opinion is presented as fact, as always.

Small shaky cam. Excessive shaky cam. Opinions on shaky cam. Opinions. Opinions everywhere.

If you're criticising someone critical of your review for criticising your review, you're kind of running out of steam. Which, given that this is comment 35 on a review that should've ended at comment 5 when you could've said 'Guess we just have different opinions but can coexist respectfully', is understandable.

Never actually seen Avatar. Do you also believe you're more intelligent than everyone who watched that?

This is what's bugging me - the stubborn, self-centred, and hilariously egotistic way you think you know more about my own opinion than I do. I like this movie. You can't deny it and you can't change it. First, you say it's because I'm naive. Then it's because I'm lying to myself. Then it's because I'm apparently a Michael Bay fan. Then it's because I have lower standards than you. Then it's because I wasn't taking it seriously. Then it's because I 'don't want to be bothered' by things you thought were problems. Now suddenly, you know how I'll react to a movie in a few years, because you're just that smarter than me. Reason after reason - can you not possibly comprehend that I just... have a different opinion to you? And that doesn't make me a worse human being? Is that too much for you to handle?

If you genuinely don't understand how someone can like something you don't without putting yourself above them like a smug child, then that's... actually kind of sad.

BigBusterBrown Since: Feb, 2014
04/29/2014 00:00:00

Shaky cam guy here, BEHOLD the most excessive use of shaky cam you will ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Rgox84KE7iY

If you are not some soulless wight, you will love it. But don't watch it twice in a row. @shinfernape, if Winter Soldier was too much, this one will knock you flat.

Pannic Since: Jul, 2009
04/29/2014 00:00:00

I check this review every few hours to see how this hilarious, pointless flame war is progressing.

Fanfiction I hate.
FullBlast Since: Sep, 2013
04/30/2014 00:00:00

@Pannic Hey this is the internet, whaddya expect? Honestly the general consensus for this movie is that it's good, so I feel like this kinda stuff is in the minority

I love being irrefutable
FullBlast Since: Sep, 2013
04/30/2014 00:00:00

@Shin Have you considered that there may NOT be a good explanation (I assume you did as part of your review)? If I recall Iron Man 3 right, Tony basically did what Bruce Wayne did in the Dark Knight, which was to basically swear off the costume, complete with the destruction of his suits. Plus given Tony's seeming dislike of SHIELD (he's had a tenuous relationship with them at best) it makes sense to me that he might just be like "ah screw you guys, you should be able to handle yourselves". It feels like if Tony was doing even the technical consultant to SHIELD, knowing the kinds of stuff they'll do with his tech, he would be undoing the promise he made to Pepper and himself to swear off Iron Man/getting involved with superheroics (and curb his reckless habits as well).

I love being irrefutable
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/30/2014 00:00:00

@ elmo

Probably? So not a definitive fact. You haven't "figured" out anything you've been taken for a chump who will accept important omissions without reasonable explanations.

That interpretation fits that trope quite well. If the glove fits as they say. Cap certainly did not the guns he seemingly forgot to use since the first film.

I am still curious what excessive shaky cam by your standard are. I want to know what bar sets the standard for your opinion.

What I am saying is that it is more PRODUCTIVE for you to write your own review rather than jump in like a raptor. Like I said, I haven't commented on anyone else's reviews that are positive about this movie.

No I don't believe I am more intelligent than everyone who watched the movie. I am part of the "everyone" so how can I be more intelligent than myself? You've just made a paradox there. I really don't know how you haven't seen Avatar yet. The movie is the highest grossing in modern history; not that you're missing much.

Look you ain't even seen Avatar apparently. Plus I do understand why people would like this movie, they are ok with being taken for chumps.

A wish is never free.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/30/2014 00:00:00

@ Fullblast

hmm you make a point. But then a big theme of Ironman 3 was that he can still be "Ironman" without the suits.

Heck what was that he said in the Avengers?

Take away the armour and he is still a genius, playboy, philanthropist.

Sure he doesn't like SHIELD but that actually might be an incentive for him to help since they practically dismantle SHIELD at the end.

Even worse is that HYDRA may have killed Tony's dad for clocking on. There definitely could have been a personal vendetta for Tony and thus it actually seems like a wasted opportunity for him not to intervene.

A wish is never free.
shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
04/30/2014 00:00:00

@ fullblast

Look but in-universe that wouldn't be the reason for Ironman not turning up.

Cap wouldn't be like "sos Tony you'll steal my limelight. Oh and you got Peppa so don't try derail my shipping with Black Widow".

A good in-universe explanation would have been good to prove that this serious movie cares about the quality of it's writing.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
04/30/2014 00:00:00

I feel like I owe everyone else an apology for being 50% of the reason this review hasn't died yet, so let's head toward a final analysis here.

You think the movie should've explained why Iron Man wasn't there. You think his omission was important. You think that everything behind the movie should have definitive factual reasons clearly explained to audiences. You think people who don't mind the omission without explanation are idiots. You think Captain America successfully drives off the Winter Soldier. You think Captain America is a boring invincible hero. You think there's too much shaky-cam. You think Captain America's line means that he knows he can win. And most importantly, you think everyone who likes this movie is a chump.

Here's my comeback to all of those - none of those are facts. None of them. Every single one is a matter of your opinion, and I respectfully disagree with them all. If you want to know why I disagree, scroll up and read the dozens of comments I've left full of explanation. Clearly you don't agree with my explanations, but since you don't agree with my opinions, why would you?

Now you can either accept that I have a different opinion and respectfully disagree, or you can continue to create assumptions and irrelevant excuses about everyone who disagrees with you, because you can't imagine anyone liking something you don't without inventing reasons why they must be more stupid than you. You don't think you're more intelligent than everyone who watched the movie, but you do think you're more intelligent than everyone who watched the movie and enjoyed it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011
04/30/2014 00:00:00

Good man, Elmo.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
05/02/2014 00:00:00

"I feel like I owe everyone else an apology for being 50% of the reason this review hasn't died yet, so let's head toward a final analysis here."

Tis called a discussion thread.

Didn't "invent" reasons you're just pulling a Big Labowski right now. If you seen the movie you'll know what I mean.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
05/02/2014 00:00:00

'I didn't invent any reasons,' said Shinfernape, after baselessly speculating with no evidence to back him up that as a fan of the movie, I was lying to myself, watching the movie for the wrong reasons, actively denying the existence of flaws that secretly bothered me, too naive to have reached the exact same conclusions as him, not educated enough to have a valid opinion of the movie, and worst of all, a fan of Michael Bay.

Can you hurry up and admit that people with different opinions aren't automatically more stupid than you - no small feat - so we can move on and forget about this? Until you can do that, we're just running around in circles.

Elmo out.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
05/03/2014 00:00:00

This is turning into school because I keep having to lecture you and correct you.

I did not say you were a Michael Bay fan. Read carefully. I said you were taking that kind of perspective.

If you can't handle that analysis based on facts and continuity trumps relatively simply opinions then I don't even know why you bother with reviews in the first place.

You have your review, and I will not rip into it even though I can.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
05/03/2014 00:00:00

You didn't say I was a Michael Bay fan, you only said I was watching it from a Michael Bay perspective. Wow, big difference. Do you have any counter to any other point I made about your baseless accusations, or was that all? It's bad enough that every time I ask you admit that people with different opinions to you aren't automatically more stupid than you, you ignore it.

Speaking of baseless accusations, you said earlier that this wasn't about being superior, yet now you say that your opinion is better than everyone who disagrees with you because (in your opinion) you've analyzed it more than they must have. I was trying to reason with you because I thought you weren't a troll, but if you take your opinion as fact and refuse to accept that anyone else's isn't simple and stupid, you're clearly not a rational person who can be reasoned with.

shinfernape Since: Jun, 2011
05/03/2014 00:00:00

Baseless accusations? You just haven't been reading properly as with the Michael point earlier.

Ofcourse I can counter our points, and rip into your review. Is that what you want?

Yes this isn't about being superior because I don't recommend movies based on how smart, rich etc people are.

Don't talk to me about reason when you'd much rather prefer "entertainment" over continuity.

If you can please read carefully I did say "don't trust the REVIEWS". Not everyone.

I have been willing to show restraint with you by not criticising your review in the vain hope that you could just live and let live.

Where we go from here is up to you.

A wish is never free.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
05/03/2014 00:00:00

Don't preach 'Live and let live' when you're the one insisting that your opinion is the only correct opinion, and everyone else is misguided, or wrong, or naive, or lying to themself, or whatever other reason you want to conjure out of thin air.

You've made several baseless accusations - I gave no indication that I didn't analyze the movie, that I was watching it with a Michael Bay view (which is hugely different to being a Michael Bay fan,) that I watched it with lower standards than you, that I was wilfully deceiving myself into liking it, etc - and yet you confidently asserted that I did all of these things, solely to provide yourself with a reason why I must be wrong (regardless of whether or not it was true.) And therefore why you must be right. All because I like a movie that you don't.

'This isn't about being superior', you say, having already elevated your own opinion above the opinion of anyone who liked the movie.

I prefer entertainment over continuity when it's a choice of one or the other. Don't pretend you'd enjoy something that had lots of continuity and no entertainment; by definition, it would be unentertaining to you.

You've shown restraint by stating your opinion as fact time and time again, and repeatedly refusing to admit that anyone with a different opinion has possibly thought it through as much as you have. I'm not looking for counters or comebacks, just answer me this - why can't you just admit to yourself that people with different opinions to you aren't automatically wrong or stupid or 'haven't analyzed it as much as you'? That your opinion isn't objectively the 'correct' opinion for everyone? That's all I want to hear.

Where we go from here is up to you.

MrMallard Since: Oct, 2010
05/03/2014 00:00:00

And then maybe you can both let this review and argument die, permanently.

I've agreed with Elmo throughout this entire thing, but in your own words this entire thing is going in circles. Maybe if no-one stirs up this review, then shinfernape will not continue to comment and the argument will finally die.

Really, to both of you, for the sake of yourselves and everyone who surfs the Review section - wrap it up, lads.

Come sail your ships around me, and burn your bridges down.
Elmo3000 Since: Jul, 2013
05/03/2014 00:00:00

... You are correct and I am sorry. I will not comment again.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
07/11/2016 00:00:00

Late but....shin\'s a complete idiot who flat out lies about various things (Bucky DID shoot fury twice) and a complete fucking moron

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
07/11/2016 00:00:00

Also there are reasons they couldn\'t bring in Tony. Hydra would have been keeping tabs to make sure he wasn\'t contacted; given that he gets passionate the reveal that Hydra murdered Howard and Maria would potentially make Tony act reckless (to stop Hydra they needed precision and cautiousness). During the final battle Bucky more than lands a couple of blows (he grazes him with a bullet, stabs him in the arm.) they both give as good as they got and Steve\'s \"don\'t make me do this\" is obviously because Bucky is his friend and he doesn\'t want to have to fight his friend.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
07/12/2016 00:00:00

More reasons for Tony to not show up by the way, since I am passing by: he would have to be informed about what was going on; he didn\'t know HYDRA was infiltrating SHIELD and planning to murder him and several other people, Cap was a fugitive and couldn\'t have tried to contact him without giving a flag (pun non intended) of where he was, HYDRA would have most likely made sure he wasn\'t aware of what was going on until it was too late. And while we aren\'t sure where Tony is during all of this, he is likely to be either at Malibu or somewhere close, which is a LONG way from Washington DC. Especially now that he no longer has his suit. Really, it\'s not that hard to say why he wasn\'t here.


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