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The pre-release section is a mess full of Square Peg, Round Trope objective misuse, outdated speculation and stuff that can apply to the main article and became a duplicate. It's really unnecessary and I'm axing it altogether because it was built in violation of the rule about troping unpublished work and is a recipe for disorder, but I'm pasting it here in case anything is salvageable. I'm merging the worthy entries in the main section. Work in progress.
Some items moved to a new namespace due to lenght.
Some of the examples were commented out for being excessively spoiler-tagged. Should there be a restriction for what gets spoiler-tagged and a warning that few spoilers will be tagged, similar to what's on the main page so these entries can be restored?
Was removed by another troper (which I think I agree with) but had wanted to comment on this entry:
I think the thing about Finn being The Ace is from a tie-in novel and I kind of agree that it isn't really reflected in the film, where he's out of his depth. Although, when Finn does have his bearings (i.e. when using a blaster and when he gets the courage to use a lightsaber), he is a pretty decent fighter.
As far as the capability of the Stormtroopers goes, I think the idea of the original trilogy ones being incompetent is more of a fan perception than reality, but while there's moments of competence in the original trilogy, Force Awakens does go out of its way to present them as more of a threat. The scene with the "TR-8R" Stormtrooper is definitely something you wouldn't see with the Original Trilogy Stormtroopers.
That being said, I don't know if Force Awakens actually does claim that its Stormtroopers are better, and the "defect" of potentially being less loyal is discussed by the film itself.
What is true is that the clone troopers experienced rapid aging/degeneration, which isn't an issue with the people like Finn who are conscripted/kidnapped.
I agree, most of the stuff about the stormtroopers being bad soldiers or even bad shots is from taking scenes of the OT out of context and despite the trope Storm Trooper Marksmanship Academy, the people they are shooting at are usually under cover.
It also stems a common misconception of how aiming works in combat situations, in combat, the vast majority of shots fired, as in more than 99%, are not intended to hit anything, at least at long range. It is suppression fire to force the enemy to take cover and not fire back while advancing to close range. That seems to be Stormtrooper tactics as well.
Jesus Christ, people are actually still pushing the "MR As boycotted Mad Max and Star Wars!" nonsense? It's as idiotic as the "Killgrave is an avatar of rape culture" bullshit.
Most of the articles all cited the same source in Return of Kings- a person who has said in no uncertain terms that he hates the MRM. Source for the Mad Max part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TLkq1WMgug
It's not a matter of whether it's true or not, the fact that fans of both series believe it happened caused the fandoms to come closer together. Also you're the one who's conflating Return of Kings with MR As, considering the entry never mentioned anything about MR As, only Return of Kings and/or "misogynists".
Moved this to discussion, hope okay:
That's not really what Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy means. The trope is more about casts entirely made up of unpleasant characters who do bad things to each other.
Granted, it can be appropriate in instances where good characters have nothing but bad things happen to them, but that's only sort of true of the original trilogy characters in the film.
What this example is talking about is Happy Ending Override, which is already on the main page for the film.
Fair enough. Would it be Broken Base then? Even if many people are okay with what happens, it's still a criticism of the film by older fans. Even if Finn, Rey, and the newer characters find some happiness, it's at the expense of the old characters. Some people really don't like how:
1) Luke rebuilds the Jedi, only for Kylo Ren to stab him in the back and help slaughter them.
2) Anakin brings balance to the force, but it lasts for a few years at best. The Dark Side now seems even stronger than ever.
3) Snoke comes out of seemingly nowhere and reforges the remnants of the Empire into something arguably even more dangerous.
4) Leia and Han's relationship nearly falls apart. They spend many (?) lonely years apart and then make up, only for...
5) Han gets murdered by his own son.
As such, it's hard for some people to get invested in the new story; they feel that it invalidates many of the accomplishments of the original trilogy.
Thanks for the reply. I probably should have PM'ed you. Apologies for not doing so.
I'm not really sure how to answer about Broken Base. Because I'm sure there are older fans (I guess yourself included) that have this criticism but I don't get the sense that there's a huge contingent of people that had this reaction or even a consensus.
Part of why I deleted the example, besides it not really fitting that trope is because there seems to be this pattern of people editing the YMMV page and picking a trope by which to say "me and my friends hated this movie (and we are actually the majority view)".
I do actually kind of agree it is a problem how the new trilogy sets off the plot by having everything the previous characters worked for undone and I guess you could say that there is a split between people thinking it works to bring in a new generation of characters versus thinking it leaves a bitter taste because it undoes everything the heroes achieved.
I guess basically I could see there being a Broken Base entry over the film's use of Happy Ending Override, but there shouldn't be an entry that's saying "some people didn't like this"- because every work has a Vocal Minority that didn't like it.
What's with the Edit War over TR-8R's name?
Which posts are edit warring?
Somebody's keeping adding Parvum Opus. Cut it out.
For the record (apologies if I should have brought this up here in the first place) it doesn't fit the trope.
As far as I know, this is the highest critically and otherwise rated film by J.J. Abrams and even if you look at the opus as "Star Wars films" rather than Abrams' films specifically, it is also one of the highest (if not the highest) critically and audience rated.
The fact that like every work, it has a Vocal Minority (who believe themselves to be a "growing contingent") does not make it a Parvum Opus.
The entire edit war over the Mary Sue / Fandom Berserk Button entries proves why the latter entry was needed in the first place and that's kind of amazing.
It's Star Wars. Fandom Berserk Button was a given from the day it was first announced. Proving to the Hulk that the Hulk is green.
Speaking of which, isn't the entire point of this YMMV? She is a Mary Sue for some people so... why delete it? The point of this section is that someone might hold that belief, even if someone disagrees.
Just because some "mainstream" (I'd hardly call io9, the only article about this debacle I partially read was from there, mainstream) outlets disagree it doesn't mean that the opinion of the people who agree becomes invalidated.
So, if I'm missing something, I'd like to know what it is.
I guess the takeaway from this is that if you raise a big enough stink, you can get any trope you don't like declared as flame bait.
Oh, Flame Bait is what I was missing, then.
Adding Star Wars to the list of fandoms I want nothing to do with.
Yep. Because people got mad about Rey being called a Mary Sue character, the Mary Sue trope is now considered Flame Bait for all of TV Tropes. Over 4,000 pages are now going to have to be edited to remove Mary Sue entries.
One-by-one negative YMMV tropes are being picked off as "flame bait." Bleugh.
Still, the entry under Base Breaker works fine, I think.
Not to disagree, as Rey does sound rather Suetiful from what I hear, but Mary Sue has always been a fairly contentious concept since long before TV Tropes rolled around. Definitely Flame Bait territory. And considering this is the same fandom that made death threats against a Fox News reporter for dissing the series...
I'm honestly surprised the trope wasn't put on the list earlier.
Mary Sue has been a Flame Bait candidate for a while already.
Still, removing the trope entirely seems more like taking one side of the flame war rather than trying to remove it. An entry saying this is a way some people view the character and that's all we're going to say on the topic seems a lot more neutral.
Nah, we can shut down any arguments about it too. And deleting it is a good way to achieve this. "this is a way some people view the character" would also be a violation of the Zero-Context Example policy.
Whenabouts is the YMMV page going to be unlocked? A couple weeks or so? Not pushing, just curious.
The list of locked pages states that the locks for The Force Awakens will be lifted when the opening weekend is concluded.
Herp. Thanks for letting me know.
Could someone explain this entry to me:
I mean, I get how the lightsaber could easily be Narm ("it's supposed to be badass, but I think it's silly" would be valid), but the actual explanation doesn't make a lick of sense to me. What does weight have to do with it? It's a handguard, it's actually pretty surprising it's the first lightsaber we've seen with one.
I think the idea there is that a regular claymore's effectiveness comes at least in part from how large and heavy it is. So the same design on a sword that's weightless makes little sense.
That doesn't explain the hand guard at all though...
The first and second questions are about unrelated points: One on the idea of having a weightless weapon designed after a weapon whose weight is the point; and one about the crossguard.
Calling it claymore-esque is something that really the fandom has latched onto, though. It's not called a claymore in any official thing so far so it seems like a nonsensical issue. I'm just going to cut that bit and add actual reasons why it might be narm-y.
I'm gonna object to two Broken Base entries:
Fans frequently get upset over seemingly trivial things. I see no issues with these entries.
I think it should only be noted if a significant number of fans hold an opinion, these seem like something only one or two would hold.
Well, how do you want to demonstrate either assertion?
Good lord, are people really in that much of a hurry to find something to whine about with this movie?
It's Star Wars. Since when do the fans not get easily worked up over anything related to the franchise? They'd get butt-hurt over Luke Skywalker's Lightsaber being the wrong color.
All sue tropes are Flame Bait. Do not link to them in work pages.
I suggest removing that WTH Casting Agency entry. Not having female or minority actors isn't inherently a poor casting choice so it doesn't fit the trope.
It was probably put in there by racist assholes who'd want an all white male cast with a white male dominant lead.
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How well does it match the trope?