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Nov 8th 2018 at 4:42:53 PM •••

Alright, there\'s been a bit of an issue where someone keeps removing Yuri from the Ensemble Darkhorse section. I personally don\'t see any legitimate grounds for doing so: she\'s a recurring ally of Spider-Man\'s but doesn\'t quite have the same presence that supporting characters like Miles, MJ, Aunt May, and Silver Sable do. Hell, she\'s completely absent from the DLC altogether! Overall I\'d put her presence on par with J Jonah, who despite never actually making a physical appearance is constantly showing up through the story and DLC with his podcast episodes. Considering that she doesn\'t play too big of a role in the story and the fact that she\'s a fan favorite, I think someone\'s being too anal with this trope\'s definition and thus, she should be reinstated. Just want to make this an official thing and not resort to an edit war.

Edited by FriedWarthog Hide/Show Replies
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:51:51 PM •••

Already sent a private message to Master Hero asking about this as well, the troper argued that \"Since Yuri does provide Spidey with mission info, you could argue that she plays an important role in the game. I mean, Spidey has to get his info from somewhere.\"

While I admit that he has a point, MJ also did the same for most other missions, and the only mission Yuri has a major part in is the Raft break-out, where she disappeared after the first half anyway. She mostly provided support through radio contacts and played no part in Spider-Man\'s personal struggle and development through the story. She\'s not exactly on the same rank as the Commissioner Gordon, who aside from being Batman\'s Friend On The Force, actually plays a major role in some of Batman\'s stories as well.

Now, let\'s say if Yuri becomes Wraith, her superhero alter-ego in the comics, and plays a role in one of Spider-Man\'s subplot or something, then I can agree that she does not qualify as a darkhorse in this case, but for now, her being just Spidey\'s Friend On The Force who occasionally calls him and appears in some scenes here and there makes her just another side character in the game.

The main trope page describes that an Ensemble Darkhorse is \"a side character making up part of the ensemble, either a non-lead secondary character or a mere Flat Character, who then becomes unexpectedly popular with the fandom...\" Personally, I think Yuri qualifies as the former. She\'s not a Flat Character, but she definitely is a non-lead secondary character who is a rather obscure character outside of comics who exploded in popularity after she appeared in the game thanks to her good chemistry with Spider-Man. At least, that\'s how I see it anyway. If we look for comparisons, let\'s say she\'s on par with characters like Admiral Ackbar from Star Wars, Maes Hughes from FMA, or the Cherno Alpha pilots and even Hannibal Chau in Pacific Rim.

Edited by Willy2537
Sep 26th 2018 at 2:26:43 PM •••

Okay, so a few days ago, I placed the following entry:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The game\'s take on Mary Jane, and the way she treats Peter, has caused some division. While Mary Jane being a spunky journalist who is actively helpful of Spider-Man and wants to be treated as an equal partner is appreciated, she has also caught some flak for repeatedly endangering herself in ways that, even for an investigative journalist, border on suicidal (such as infiltrating the base of Private Military Contractors), and then getting mad at Peter when he is \"overly\" concerned with her, even though she is essentially an untrained, unpowered human. It\'s suggested that Peter may have had more genuine overreactions before their breakup, but in the game proper Mary Jane comes off less as an independent strong person and more like a reckless thrill-seeker.

A day later, it was deleted for supposedly improper use of the trope, as I was \'supposedly picking sides in a couple\'s discussion rather than justifying how MJ unintenially came off as less sympathetic than the writers intended her to be. Thing is, I feel that point stands, as the whole point of this entry was to explain that numerous people took issue with what was presumably meant to be a very inspirational take on the character as a result of her reckless and ungrateful (I disagree with the latter of those as MJ comes around later on, but I\'ve seen many people bring it up) behaviour.

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Sep 27th 2018 at 11:22:42 AM •••

I agree. Seems to be a reasonable example to me

Sep 27th 2018 at 2:57:28 PM •••

Unintentionally Unsympathetic depends on whether or not we are supposed to take MJ\'s side of the argument. Remember that Peter is the protagonist, the guy we follow for most of the story. I\'m not defending MJ in that argument but I think we should take into consideration what she thinks/feels instead of just focusing on what she does onscreen. It\'s understandable that MJ feels Peter is overprotective, because her job requires her to take risks, much like Lois Lane. Obviously, Spider-Man is not as powerful as Superman and doesn\'t have the same job as MJ, but MJ wants to be independent and self-reliant. Whatever happens, you must take subtleties and scripts into consideration.

Sep 29th 2018 at 9:42:31 AM •••

The thing is, what you get to see on the screen is the most important aspect on which a character is judged. Even counting added subtleties and scripts, if you have to take extra leaps to think about beyond what is shown, it for me honestly qualifies as Mary Jane being unintentionally written umsympathetically. A book can give me hunderds of background lines about what an upstanding guy/girl character X is, but if he/she spends most of the book behaving like an ass then he/she still comes off as an ass. AS it stands YMMV isn\'t meant to exclusively reflect one universal interpretation or opinion and I definitely think many people have voiced their opinion on this version of MJ as this.

Sep 29th 2018 at 10:35:21 AM •••

Look, I only want the tropes to be used properly, but when you judge a character to be sympathetic/unsympathetic, you have to:

  • consider their intentions behind their actions and the context of those actions. If you break a character down to just their actions, and ignore their motivations behind it, you ignore a great part of their character.
  • understand the difference between a character being sympathetic and a character being right. A character can bring up some good arguments in a discussion but those arguments can be defeated by someone with even better arguments.
Unintentionally Unsympathetic sometimes comes off as a black and white trope, without taking into consideration the subtleties and nuances of a character\'s feelings, especially in couples\' arguments.

Edited by MasterHero
Sep 29th 2018 at 10:46:16 AM •••

As the one who removed that entry, I want to second and back up Master Hero.

I didn\'t think MJ was unsympathetic. I mean I felt that it was natural in terms of how any normal person would be in that situation. And you know getting into danger and so on is her job as a reporter. And stuff like her getting in hideouts of mercenaries is more the function of the story needing to give her something to do than anything.

I felt that the entry was too much like character bashing.

Sep 29th 2018 at 10:52:18 AM •••

At this rate, we may have to reevaluate almost every Uninentionally Unsympathetic entry in the website.

Sep 29th 2018 at 6:28:36 PM •••

This isn\'t the place for that (i.e. whether to junk the trope or not). If you mean you wish I should be clearer in my answers, then that\'s fair. I mean personally I felt the MJ and Miles civilian sequences weren\'t well done outside for one or two moments but that\'s the problem of the mission design. And you know MJ had this major Damsel Scrappy reputation after the Raimi movies, that somehow ameliorating that in a small way is something I welcome.

I think if they had just done it to one or two it would have been fine.

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