So, I've been wondering this for a while: does Dr. Starline qualify as a Complete Monster? The Hate Sink and The Sociopath entries in his folder on the Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW) - Independent Antagonists page more or less sum him up personality-wise, but that aside, let's recap his List of Transgressions: he painfully tortures Eggman's "Mr. Tinker" persona right out of him (with help from Metal Sonic), indirectly causing the Metal Virus pandemic in doing so; he tries to massacre hundreds of innocent bystanders with an avalanche just to give Sonic a Sadistic Choice; what he does to Belle after kidnapping her plays out like a rape scene (after he'd already ruined her life, to boot); and Chaos knows what the heck else he did to Surge and Kit besides what's shown on-page. Even Eggman himself is nothing to Starline but a prize to win and hoard, and he is hell-bent on making Eggy his after being fired, all else--good, bad, or neutral--be damned (you could say Eggy is Starline's "precious", for lack of a better word). To top it off, he has no real comedic traits besides his "Oh, Crap!" expressions and whenever he gets beaten up, both more attributable to the comic's art style than than he himself. Seems to me like he checks all the boxes for "monster" status...but I've been wrong before. So, what say y'all?
Edited by Marluigio Hide / Show Replies
I think he was discussed on the Complete Monster thread before and deemed insufficiently heinous, but you could go and take it up with them.
<(0_0<) <(0_0)> (>0_0)> KIRBY DANCE
[=CHADhan=] Player.
Alright, here it is. The Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry on this page is getting somewhat opinionated and less neutral. S Hould I reword it?
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does. Hide / Show Replies
For context, here's the entry as it currently stands:
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Readers who have taken issue with Sonic's decisions to let his adversaries go have generally also begun viewing him more in this light, arguing that he's become more insensitive towards other characters who have reason to be skeptical of his choices, seemingly caring more about his own righteousness in letting go of his adversaries than about how it may affect everyone else.Specific examples Sonic also comes off to these readers as being more judgmental and condescending than his usual characterization when being faced with opposing views, and emphasizing his own viewpoint as being especially noble regardless of his allies' own views.Specific examples
It definitely needs a trim.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Reading the recent edit history for this page, it's clear that the person who wrote this is simply trying to push their own viewpoint, rather than nothing the viewpoints of others.
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
I've heard a lot of remarks in my circles that Sonic's habit of sparing the villains (specifically Mr. Tinker in #5-6, Metal Sonic in #12, and Eggman again in #32) have made him something of a Designated Hero.
The argument goes that since he's allowed the villains to go scot-free instead of sending them blasting off again like normal or imprisoning them, he's enabling their evil. Other people in the same circles say that it's perfectly in character for Sonic, and that they would escape anyway so killing them would be the only rational option, which Sonic doesn't really do.
Have any of you seen similar arguments? If so, should I add something about this in the vein of Broken Base, Designated Hero, or Unintentionally Unsympathetic?
Edited by Negacube Hide / Show Replies
Broken Base sounds fine.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
I'd go with Unintentionally Unsympathetic though that may depend on what the Deadly Six do next time they show up.
Little late, but to add my take on it, and this is gonna be kind of negative…
Mario's perfectly fine with letting Bowser fall into a pit of lava every other game, even Kirby knows that trying to redeem every bad guy he comes across isn't always practical (and Taranza agreed that Sectonia needed to be stopped), and Sonic himself spin-attacked an escaping Eggman back in the first game's ending. And… y'know… threw Erazor Djinn's lamp into a pit of lava. On purpose.
It obviously would be out-of-character for Sonic to coldly take the merciless route, but the entire reason Eggman keeps coming back is because… Sonic and pals just don't give a crap about what happens to him after the final boss. He could be dead, he could've escaped at the last second, whatever. He's gone and we can all go back to our lives. It's as simple as that.
No need to justify a status quo in-universe to this degree, especially since a lot of other media just follows this trend. Even Batman just lets the Joker stay stuck on an exploding plane if there's no time to grab him and throw him into Arkham. It obviously never sticks, but still.
I'm fine with Mr. Tinker being spared since he was virtually an entirely different individual without his memories and thus can't be put as responsible for what "Eggman" did, but Metal Sonic, Eggman and the Deadly Six... yeah, those really could've been thought out better if "mercy is good" was what they were aim for. At the very least, fix the issues with the Zeti mentioned at the bottom here.
Sends me into hyperspace, when I see her pretty face…
Bork ribs with extra beef
Alright, as per what Tomodachi has told me, let's begin our discussion on Eggman's role in the comic, and his behavior in it compared to recent games.
Edited by BlurryDawgo Sends me into hyperspace, when I see her pretty face… Hide / Show Replies
Personally, I don't think he got badass decayed, since, arguably, he still managed to get away without major setbacks after the Metal Virus. No other villain from that arc can claim that. Not to mention, he did have a plan and it would've worked, if not for Starline. Honestly, if not for him, he would've had won.
Yeah, I remember him escaping at the last moment, but the issue I have is that he's more apathetic towards his own scheme.
The thing with Eggman is that he's supposed to be a counterpart to Sonic in that they're both juggernauts in different fields. Sonic's speed makes him unstoppable, but Eggman's ambition and intellect matches it. He's the Lex Luthor to Sonic's Superman (with some Joker zaniness sprinkled in).
I think he's written fairly okay at the beginning of the saga in that his ambition is in full force, but we then get the "sandwich" scene in #18. Later on, we get the "only thing that can go wrong is us touching the Zombots" scene in #23. It feels like Starline is more dedicated to making Eggman's plan succeed than the doctor himself is, which, given what I mentioned about him being a "juggernaut" above, is pretty jarring. (Also, the part about his plan working is null and void in #25 when he mentions the Zombots' eventual disintegration anyways. And Eggman just nonchalantly giving up and saying he'll move to a new planet.)
Yes, it was technically Starline that handed the Deadly Six the role of final boss, but the point I'm making is this— Eggman's badassery is less about him just surviving whatever comes at him or just being plain evil, and more about how he's cunning, ruthless, has a definite plan to make the world bow to his genius, and will do whatever it takes to see that come to fruition (see Sonic's Magnificent Bastard subpage for examples of Eggman in his element).
In short, I think it'd be much more in-character for Eggman to keep testing to perfect his Metal Virus like he did the Phantom Ruby prototypes in Forces, or at the very least work to solve the issue more urgently when it does go awry in #18. Hell, the pages and subpages for 2010s Sonic games on this very wiki already praised how Eggman now grabs the "bad guy with the master plan" niche with passion and doesn't let go, so letting the comic get away scot-free with doing the opposite is... not ideal.
(Also, I liked his earlier dynamic with Starline more, and his reduction in competence here just feels like an excuse to make Starline come to hate him. Eggman's had more than enough Starscreams stealing his thunder. A Soundwave or two would be appreciated.)
Sends me into hyperspace, when I see her pretty face…
Stache Hand the Clutcher
So the whole Sonic having amnesia thing is something that a big part of the fandom has agreed upon, thus worthy of being on this page, but the opinion that Doctor Eggman's return from his Mr. Tinker phase and establishment as the big bad of the Metal Virus saga early on was wasted potential is just "what a specific troper thinks", even after the quantity of those who share that sentiment was supposedly looked up?
This is bullshit. I already said that it doesn't make sense to delete those tropes when a fandom does in fact already exist for the franchise as a whole. This entire trope page might as well not exist if that's the case, since "it's not out yet." Why haven't you deleted Tearjerkers or Character Rerailment then? I'm starting to think you just don't want to acknowledge the Sonic fandom reacting negatively to things.
Edited by Troublethecat Hide / Show Replies
No sort of pre-release fanbase splits are being put in the site anymore. From what I’ve read, it was because someone pointed out that the arguments could become irrelevant when something releases. The only sort of pre-release reactions being put on there is Tainted by the Preview, from what I’ve seen.
Regarding Lanolin's Character Perception Evolution entry. While I agree that the character was once liked but now divisive, the issue is CPE is about a character's earlier appearances/characterization being re-evaluated with time. In Lanolin's case, it seems she didn't have much personality originally, and it was only once she became an Ascended Extra that she gained her divisive traits. While she definitely qualifies for Base-Breaking Character, I don't think CPE is correct, as her divisiveness comes entirely from her later actions.
(e.g see the Sonic franchise's CPE subpage: examples include Shadow's earlier more serious story going from a source of mocking to beloved, Big going from useless walking Scrappy Mechanic to Actually Pretty Funny, Silver and Elise's roles in Sonic 06 being less hated. All these are cases of a character's earlier moments being perceived differently, not one starting out liked and then gaining a new, less popular personality like Lanolin.)