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May 20th 2018 at 3:07:34 PM •••

Is it just me, or is there a bit too much shipping community stuff on this page? It feels like every third entry is about popular ships or shipping wars.

Apr 26th 2018 at 9:07:07 AM •••

I wasn't too happy with the Strawman Has a Point part. I may have carelessly mistyped Misaimed Fandom as Moral Myopia in the edit summary, but there's still an argument I have against it. It said, "Team Plasma may be hypocritical (and in some cases, dishonest) about their desire to free Pokémon from humans, but the fact remains that Pokemon battles would be a serious case of animal cruelty in a more realistic setting." I'm pretty sure that the Strawman Has a Point trope is all about when the bad side makes sense, but it doesn't excuse Team Plasma's case. When the grunts are first seen, they kick a Munna to extract its Dream Mist, which would be considered a much, much worse case of animal cruelty considering that most Pokemon want to battle alongside trainers to become stronger. Kicking a Pokemon which can hardly defend itself sounds like an example of Bad People Abuse Animals, but it wasn't even mentioned for some reason. However, Team Plasma's leader Ghetsis is completely opposed to the above point, as he sees Pokemon as tools/weapons, seemingly abused his Zweilous/Hydreigon into evolving sooner than intended, and he even got Kyurem to attack the Player Character. According to N, Kyurem was only forced to do so and never wanted to attack anyone. These examples define true animal cruelty.

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Apr 26th 2018 at 12:50:37 PM •••

Remember that it's "Strawman Has A Point", not "Strawman Is Completely Right About Everything". Also, if you have an argument against it, then rewrite the paragraph to better reflect it, but don't add an even longer counter-argument below it, you're just asking for a Flame War here and the page devolves into Thread Mode.

Going purely by Plasma's talking points, the fact of the matter still stands that almost noone actually has a convincing counter-argument to their talking points. The countless Kick the Dog moments and the fact that their leaders are clearly lying doesn't actually change any of that.

Jun 24th 2014 at 11:12:37 PM •••

"Ink-Stain Adaptation: Best Wishes flaws has unfortunately added fuel to the already intense vocal hatedom towards Pokémon Black and White,further ruining its reputation, despite the anime are usually separate from the games."

This is the first time I've heard this complaint. I haven't seen anything come up about this particular trope in any of the major Pokémon forums, and considering the general disinterest the western fandom has with the anime in general, I'm curious how that would affect BW's reception.

Edited by 24.177.125.170 Hide/Show Replies
Mar 19th 2015 at 10:20:18 AM •••

I don't get it either. It seems like just an excuse to rail against Best Wishes for it's "flaws" (read: decisions it made that fans didn't like). Cut it.

Jan 21st 2014 at 8:02:01 PM •••

This comment in the Ensemble Dark Horse entry concerning Ghetsis really didn't belong: Many fans took this as one of the many signs in Generation V that the series was finally growing up.

Um, the previous generation had a very complex and disturbed Omnicidal Maniac Nietzsche Wannabe with a tragic background and A God Am I motivations for destroying the universe. And the Team Galactic plot in general had many mature and morally ambiguous themes to it. That is, if anything, more sign of the franchise "growing up" than a fairly two-dimensional but incredibly evil villain. (Though I object to the use of "growing up" in reference to getting Darker and Edgier in general.)

Edited by ANewMan
Jan 17th 2014 at 11:39:08 AM •••

Are memes really YMMV material? I've always wondered that. It should not be subjective at all what's a meme and what isn't.

Jun 3rd 2012 at 3:33:52 PM •••

Regardless of whether he's monstrous or not, I have noticed that every mention of him on this site links to the CM entry. I'm not going to argue over the accuracy, but doesn't it seem like overkill?

Edited by FreezeBolt Hide/Show Replies
Apr 17th 2013 at 9:05:55 AM •••

^ It IS overkill, yes. But on the flip side, removing all Complete Monster refrences to him (even on Sugar Wiki!) because he's apparently "officially not a CM" is pretty extreme too. There were, and are still, many fans who see Ghetsis as THE Complete Monster of Pokemon, and for YMMV, that should at least be made known even if the wiki itself doesn't agree to call Ghetsis a definite Complete Monster. Opinions matter on this site, don't they?

Edited by 216.99.32.43
Dec 19th 2013 at 6:04:19 AM •••

So from what i've collected, the whole reason Ghetsis isn't a Complete Monster is because it's proven that N isn't his real son? Because that's what i'm getting here.

Jan 9th 2014 at 8:56:45 PM •••

No, that's not it at all. Even if N ISN'T his real son, he's his adopted child, and treating him the way Ghetsis did is unarguably wrong. The reason Ghetsis isn't considered a CM anymore is because he's apparently "small potatoes" and his world domination schemes, plus all the despicable actions he took in the name of it, isn't heinous enough when compared to other villains. Nevermind the whole thing about scale and opportunity, since Ghetsis does make the most of what he's got and is the worst he can possibly be. But the site managers aren't changing their mind about this.

Had I gotten Ghetsis to be seriously considered for the trope, this would be my writeup:

Edited by ANewMan
Jan 10th 2014 at 1:46:43 PM •••

A New Man: That is a point that should have been made in the project thread. Making a passive aggressive attack on another troper because you disagree with the decision is also not something we are required to tolerate.

Jan 10th 2014 at 4:20:26 PM •••

What's the project thread? And I apologize if anything I said was a passive aggressive attack on anyone.

Jan 11th 2014 at 5:44:23 PM •••

I can't make this point on the project thread because right there on the first page, Ghetsis is in the "Never Again" list, meaning that it's a case that's been closed forever, the wiki does not think he qualifies, he is not to be reconsidered and he should never be discussed on that thread again - hence, NEVER AGAIN. So I won't attack any more tropers or the wiki, I won't ever not think of Ghetsis as a Complete Monster despite what the wiki tells me, and I won't ever bring him up on the project thread because it's against the rules to do so.

Jan 21st 2014 at 8:04:02 PM •••

Oh, apparently there are still some references to Ghetsis being thought of as a Complete Monster. In the Love to Hate entry on him and the Fan-Disliked Explanation entry for the sequels' YMMV. Go figure.

Edited by 98.25.4.230
Nov 21st 2011 at 6:45:18 PM •••

I don't see why Ghetsis is listed as a Complete Monster when he's clearly a Magnificent Bastard.

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Nov 21st 2011 at 6:47:21 PM •••

There's nothing Magnificent about him. He's the epitome of a Smug Snake.

Nov 21st 2011 at 6:55:04 PM •••

At the same time, there's nothing Monstrous about him. So why is he listed as one?

Edited by Zuruzukin
Nov 21st 2011 at 7:21:53 PM •••

...Nothing monstrous about him? Did we play the same game?

Nov 22nd 2011 at 12:27:46 AM •••

He does hit all three major points: the other characters are revolted by him once his motives and actions come to light, said actions are never presented in a good light, and if he regrets what he did, I'm a Miltank.

The guy's the nastiest Pokevillian since Cipher, and the nastiest mainline game-canon villain, full stop.

Nov 22nd 2011 at 7:38:23 AM •••

Regardless, his treatment of N makes him a saint in my eyes. I hated that little green-haired bastard, and like to imagine that Zekrom dropped him into a volcano afterwards.

Look, I don't want to talk about this anymore, okay?

Edited by Zuruzukin
Feb 15th 2012 at 6:31:54 AM •••

Well, when you think about it, the worst thing we actually see Ghetsis do is insult N. Still, I guess this is a perfect example of varying mileage.

Apr 9th 2013 at 4:31:03 PM •••

... I'm sorry. When was it decided Ghetsis doesn't qualify for Complete Monster? I admit, I missed that.

Apr 17th 2013 at 9:18:47 AM •••

^ There was a HUGE discussion on that. He was ultimately removed because he "failed the heinous standard" compared to Cyrus. Even though Cyrus had no bearing on Pokemon Black And White whatsoever.

There's nothing Magnificent about him. He's the epitome of a Smug Snake.

I'm actually in agreement here. A guy who boasts "I AM PERFECTION!" and throws a tantrum when his plans fall apart is totally a Smug Snake rather than a Magnificent Bastard.

He does hit all three major points: the other characters are revolted by him once his motives and actions come to light, said actions are never presented in a good light, and if he regrets what he did, I'm a Miltank. The guy's the nastiest Pokevillian since Cipher, and the nastiest mainline game-canon villain, full stop.

I agree with all this, but try telling this to the mods who've outlawed Ghetsis as a CM. They'll just argue about too much Offscreen Villainy and how his villainy wasn't as heinous as the previous Big Bad.

Regardless, his treatment of N makes him a saint in my eyes. I hated that little green-haired bastard

WOW. Just...WOW. Draco in Leather Pants / Ron the Death Eater much?

Well, when you think about it, the worst thing we actually see Ghetsis do is insult N.

Everything bad that happened in the first game was the outcome of his scheming. While said scheming was all off-screen and in backstory, we DO see the results of it all coming to fruition, and then we see him not only want to eliminate the player character, but expresses that he longs to see him/her break in despair and lose all hope. What tops it off isn't just that he insults N, but he insults him after revealing how he raised him up to be what he is now, which means he's insulting his "son" for being exactly what his whole plan hinged on him being. Hypocrite.

Edited by ANewMan
Mar 26th 2015 at 12:42:22 PM •••

Except it IS possible to be both a Complete Monster and a Magnificent Bastard at the same time.

Mar 26th 2015 at 1:58:37 PM •••

Fucking necrobumping.

It doesn't matter since the Long-Term CM clean-up thread declared him to not be a CM.

Apr 14th 2015 at 6:24:01 PM •••

He very well can and is still be considered a "complete monster" by fans without actually being an example of the CM trope on the wiki, though. At least everyone seems to agree he's a colossal dick who's living over on the other side of the Moral Event Horizon.

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