I agree with that we can rewrite the entry. But we should definitely not cut him. Tyrell and Grant have ALOT more resources than Irving, and he stands out in that he is the only one who doesn't have any real redeeming qualities (other than Whiterose) in the series. Besides, just... look at when he kills Santiago. That sure was monstrous and sadistic as hell.
I don't really get the resources argument. Yes, he keeps a low profile because it suits him, but he is not exactly a nobody. He works for the Dark Army, is presumably lavishly funded by them, has direct access to Whiterose, has personal guards etc. In time of need he can gather as many resources as Grant and much more than Tyrell. Now that I think about it, everything Tyrell had in seasons 2 and 3 was provided by Irving.
Yes, there are no clear redeeming qualities to him so far but it seemed that his story about Whiterose implies there was some abuse he went through. It is cryptic at the moment but things may very well change in the future.
Santiago's murder was indeed brutal and gruesome, but not sadistic. Irving hit him right into the heart and finished him off quickly. Sadistic version could've involved hacking his limbs one by one or something demented like that.note I really doubt that Medieval soldiers qualify for Complete Monster just because they used melee weapons. True examples of sadism are what other characters did, like Tyrell abusing hobo to satisfy his jollies.
As for rewrite, if it is to happen, I'd keep Whiterose entry as is, cut Irving's entry by two thirds and focus on bombings, definitely add Vera, who is a rapist, drug dealer and murderer, and consider adding Tyrell as well.
Edited by Oransel
Tyrell cares for his family and is probably one of the most sympathetic characters in the entire show, and Vera... hmmm. He's a rapist and a ruthless gangster, sure, but he's also fairly tragic and seems to have loved Shayla in some messed up way.
Now, I will try to do an EP for Vera on the cleanup forum. I think we have a pretty mutual feeling about the Irving situation. We do a major rewrite but still keep him.
To be fair, I am still not really convinced about Irving. Regardless, this is YMMV entry after all, people are expected to have different opinions, so yeah let's opt for a large rewrite.
Vera EP is a good idea. As for Tyrell being sympathetic, again, that's very much YMMW
Does Irving really qualify for the Complete Monster?
His worst actions involve (in order of appearance):
Sure, he is clearly a villain, but let's look at these points closer:
In conclusion, it is not that I am absolutely convinced that he should not be an example (I am on the fence, leaning towards Not An Example at the moment) but more that there are characters in the show that deserve the spot far more than him, like Vera and Tyrell. Why Irving, who provided administrative assistance, takes the blame for the bombings while Tyrell, who personally planned them for selfish gain, does not, is a mystery.
At the very least, the entry should be rewritten not to be so sensationalist.
Edited by Oransel Hide / Show Replies