Discussion YMMV / HowIMetYourMother

Even if the writeup isn't correct, Shipping Bed Death needs to go back in. The fans loved Robin and Barney for a season and a half before they got together, and it's clear that the writers simply didn't know how to write the couple. Now, whether they intended to break them up or not isn't the point, as it can be Shipping Bed Death even if it was intended to be a short thing, unless their goal was to make the audience less interested in the show (which... seems unlikely).

So I was going to write a new entry, and the old one seems fine. It doesn't say anything about the writers' intention on keeping them together, just that they didn't know how to write them. Which is precisely this trope.

Bump. I can't see a reason not to readd it.

It's not "only for one episode" but rather the finale being the point that the characters were forever tainted in the eyes of the fans. Considering that I have seen a decent number of people ripping into the characters over the finale, they should remain listed on the entry.

It just takes one moment for a character to become hated by the fans - there are still people who hate Lily primarily over San Francisco, for example.

I'm not so sure about that. The series finale being as controversial as it was, there are actually a lot of people who like it, they just aren't as vocal. I'm not speaking for myself, but stating that Ted and Robin are The Scrappy is not an adequate representation, as it doesn't represent what the entire fandom believes. I personally would think they'd fit better under Base Breaker.

The Scrappy isn't an universal reaction - it's YMMV. By definition, that means that even if the characters aren't considered Scrappies by the entire fandom, the portion that feel that way about the characters justify their inclusion under that trope.

The same can be said of Lily - Whilst there are people who liked the character for the entirity of the series, the significant portion who dislike her & consider her a Scrappy justify her inclusion there.

But comparing Lily and Ted is like comparing apples and oranges. When Lily transitioned to The Scrappy in her non-controversial episode, it was justified with the fact that she wasn't portrayed as doing the right thing. A majority of the fanbase chose not to forgive her for that. In Ted's case, he is portrayed as doing the right thing, which is just one reason why the episode's so controversial. There are people who dislike the finale and still like Ted, albeit very few, but the fact that the finale is a Base Breaker makes Ted's position as a Base Breaker better suited than The Scrappy. With a finale as controversial as the one we got, I still consider it the better trope for Ted to fall under.

If a number of fans consider Ted & Robin The Scrappy, they belong there. There's no difference between fans hating Lily & fans hating Ted, no matter how their actions are portrayed in the show.

The Scrappy isn't a case of "Character hated because they did something bad". It's a character who has a hatedom. After the finale, Ted & Robin fit that description, it doesn't matter why the fans reacted in that manner or what the reception was to the episode.

Being classed as The Scrappy also doesn't mean they can't be included under Base Breaker - again, Lily is under both with the explanation noting the hatedom that considers her The Scrappy, but not going into further details.

I think the problem with that entry is that it implies that the view is universal, through most of the fanbase did have a lot of problems with the finale. I've edited it a bit to make it a bit more neutral and to highlight that it is only those people who hated the finale consider Ted and Robin The Scrappy.

After seeing the debate over Sera in Dragon Age Inqusition I am tempted to remove them from The Scrappy and put them under Base Breaker because they still arguably have fans and much of the hate has less to do with Ted himself and more to do with Carter Bays

I've decided to remove them from The Scrappy

1) A lot of the detractors of the finale criticize it on more of a narrative and plotline or character regression basis over Ted getting what he wants—the idea that it would suck for Ted too if he got Robin. 2) Some of the hate Ted gets for getting Robin are derived from extreme social justice vs. nice guy/MGTOW interpretations of the show. This grows unsuprisingly in tumblr. Whether you agree with the social justice view or not, the rights and wrongs of this discussion I don't think are applicable for TvTropes. 3) Some of the Ted hate comes from extreme Ron the Death Eater directed against Ted and Draco in Leather Pants for Barney that has existed before the finale. 4) Apparently The Scrappy can't be a Base Breaker.

I'm not sure but I think Lily should be removed too, since the hate torwards her seems to have died down nowadays and she isn't remembered that negatively.

I think Lily's fine, the reason the hate's died down for her is more because people really haven't been talking about the series as much.

We don't really have such a trope. Also, what you are describing doesn't sound very Green-Eyed Monster-ish.

Robin is very prone to Forbidden Fruit... she consistently wants what she cannot have (see: "Lobster Crawl" where she are lobster solely because her doctor told her she can't have it, she wanted Barney because she couldn't have him, she only admitted to finally wanting Ted because she couldn't have him, and she actively was against the possibility of having kids until she was told she couldn't).

It IS Green-Eyed Monster because of what Robin does or feels in base of her jealousness. And she did actively badmouthed Ted's and Barney's girlfriends and tried to steal them back (in Ted and Victoria's case, Robin was happy at the prospect of having her far far away. With Barney the attempts were even more blatant), and even tried to sabotage Nora and Patrice at one point. If being destructive to others or herself does not qualify her for the trope, then the values are very questionable.

I agree. Her whole speech to Lily in the finale was basicely: "I can't stand watching the guy I rejected being happy with someone else than me"

Yes, exactly. I mean, That Halloween reunion where Robin decides to leave the gang, sums her whole selfishness (even more than Lily has ever been, as she tries to keep her family together). It's relatable in Barney's case, as she didn't expect Barney to revert back to his player ways (and if we remember well, that's Barney's way to cope with the pain, so he's not that well too), but just at the sight of Ted happily almost-married to The Mother is enough to set her off? Even thought she encouraged Ted to get over her, and just for a moment of weakness she even considered to leave Barney at the altar with Ted. Too mature, Robin.

With all this, my point is that fans seem to be even more harsh on Lily and completely forget that Robin also has been as selfish as her and nobody comments on her actions towards Ted and Barney.

No, because the entry specifically refers to the events of those episodes.

OK then, if the question does get answered, can there be an addition to the example?

... well, having seen the episode in question... it's even more Informed Wrongness because they do wind up going to Rome. So not only was Marshall wrong for bringing it up, his point about becoming a judge in NYC is apparently wrong as well.

I don't think the episode was necessarily saying he was "wrong" for wanting to become a judge (especially since he's shown running for Supreme Court in a future flash forward).

It's not all black and white, just because Marshall was "in the wrong" to bring up San Francisco doesn't mean Lily was "in the right," nor does it mean his attempt to become a judge was wrong. It's even repeatedly said that when it comes to the logical choice for the family Marshall had the better argument. The fact they chose Rome in the end doesn't mean Marshall was wrong, but that it was a decision made as a couple (which is key) that they were happy with, which required knowledge of changing circumstances, ie Lily's pregnancy.

The only thing the Informed Wrongness would apply to is just the San Francisco guilt trip, but I think even that is pretty weak because, ignoring the Hatedom Lily has, taking that scene by itself it is a cold thing for a spouse to bring up. In fact I would be disappointed if people think that is perfectly acceptable behavior in a marriage.

I would add that it was shown Marshall was just trying to win the argument (go nuclear with a low blow), not legitimately questioning Lily's devotion to their family. The fact some fans cheered him on is covered by Unintentionally Unsympathetic, but doesn't really fall under Informed Wrongness.

The entry you deleted was about the San Francisco guilt trip and the bit about the judgeship was an afterthought at most.

It's a YMMV item, the only reason to delete it is if it's misuse or if it's factually inaccurate. And it isn't, you just disagree with it. Marshall was painted as in the wrong for bringing it up; plenty of people thought he was justified in doing so.

Again, that's assuming the show actually portrayed it as black and white as the example claims. The entire sequence talking with ghost versions of Lily (and his Dad) came to the conclusion he was right in the argument, but if he goes down the path of the guilt trip he would lose Lily. The example hinges on the fact they eventually do go to Rome, claiming the message was that he was wrong in the overall argument when it was a lot more complex than that. His regret over the matter was that he doesn't want to lose Lily and is not meant to be simple right or wrong.

It's not whether I agree with the example but that the example is misrepresenting what actually happens in order to make its point. That would make it factually inaccurate. It's someone wanting the outcome to be different (Lily fully called out on her tendency to bail) but it doesn't really fall under the trope.

I discussed the example in the tv forum thread for the show. While I still don't approve because I think it's stupid to think Marshall wouldn't regret what he said, I guess the gray area is there.

I take issue with the "culture of losing" phrase used as it sounds kind of rude and comes across as a pointless attack on Americans for no good reason(besides, i'm pretty we're not the only country that has that view). So if it's OK I would like to trim that part out. Also a lot of families do actually support the "losing is OK" Aesop, so it's really not that "unfriendly".

The issue isn't "losing is OK," so much as "trying isn't important."

Ok fair enough, i'm glad to see that the trope entry no longer reads like a thinly veiled insult to Americans at any rate.

Here's how it's currently written.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Lily & Marshall's fight in "Unpause" - specifically when he responds to Lily's claim that she's never been selfish in their relationship by pointing out that she dumped him less than two months before they were going to be married & ran off to San Francisco to try to be an artist, before proceeding to ask if he & Marvin are just a consolation prize because she failed at her attempt to become an artist - was universally praised by the fans who hate Lily due to her selfishness & Bitch in Sheep's Clothing status, with the moment being seen as a Take That, Scrappy! that was long overdue. "Sunrise" makes it seem that this wasn't the intention, with the Marshall/Lily subplot focusing entirely on Marshall realising he was out of line to bring San Francisco up rather than have both parties realise they were in the wrong, being a notable indicator that the writers intended for the viewers to side with Lily.

I haven't heard that it was universally praised, and hadn't that been covered in season two where she went through a Humiliation Conga? That's not to say it can't be brought up again, but thoughts?

It's not universally praised, it's "universally praised by the fans who hate Lily." Which really seems like an Overly Narrow Superlative, but almost assuredly isn't wrong. Borders on word cruft, though.

The rest of the example certainly stands, though. A pretty significant portion of the fandom think Marshall realizing how wrong he was came off a bit sudden and didn't jive with things. As an Audience Reaction it seems kosher.

... that said, I'm sure the next episode will show Lily's side and how she came to her decision, but the point still stands that after "Sunrise" a significant portion of the audience didn't buy Marshall's Informed Wrongness.

How about it be rewritten as thus?

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Lily & Marshall's fight in "Unpause" - specifically when he responds to Lily's claim that she's never been selfish in their relationship by pointing out that she dumped him less than two months before they were going to be married & ran off to San Francisco to try to be an artist, before proceeding to ask if he & Marvin are just a consolation prize because she failed at her attempt to become an artist - was praised by fans who still hated Lily for leaving Marshall at the end of season 1. "Sunrise" makes it seem that this wasn't the intention, with the Marshall/Lily subplot focusing on Marshall realising he was out of line to bring San Francisco up rather than have both parties realise they were in the wrong, which some saw as an indicator that the writers intended for the viewers to side with Lily.

That way we can demonstrate that fans who hate Lily were happy at this without it looking like there was universal praise for the scene. It might be a vast majority or only those who hate the character, either way we are including how many did like this scene for that reason without it looking like we are taking sides.

Because it's not necessarily because of that moment that people hate Lily - Remember that things like the Front Porch test & nearly walking out on the marriage when Marshall was grieving his father's death also contribute to the hatedom - it makes more sense to simply state that it's Lily's hatedom who feel this way, rather than pin it down to a specific event.

I want to hear what Dark Rage 6 has to say, since they're the one who keeps changing it, and it's starting to look like damage control for their favourite character by underplaying the reaction.

Messaged darkrage6, telling them to bring any edits here before making them. Seeing as I was ignored and they immediately went & edited the page, I think undoing any edits they make and locking the page may be the best option.

It's annoying, but considering the circumstances with them constantly editing anything that expresses displeasure at Lily's actions, it's less of a pain than constantly undoing everything.

I think darkrage6 getting suspended for edit warring is the far more likely outcome.

darkrage6 keeps falling back to Broken Base when justifying his edits. Should we remove the entry, then?

The Broken Base entry or the UU entry? Either way, no. They're both valid entries.

I'm fine with removing the "universally praised" bit and I agree with Chris that the vitriol toward Lily doesn't all come from San Francisco... personally, the worst part for me was the "almost going to Spain" bit.

I mean this part: Lily and Marshall's argument in "Unpause," and who was more right. That's darkrage6's sole justification for removing UU and TTS entry. Is there a way we can reconcile all those entries?

We don't have to reconcile the entries as far as opinions go. It's perfectly possible for opinions to diverge.

Wording is everything, right now there is a lot of word cruft. There is nothing wrong with listing opinions, as that is the point of YMMV, but it can be wording objectively and not trying to side with anyone. I'll trim it down but leave the core point across.

It actually looks like it's even longer now than before, and the part explaining why the trope applies has been rewritten entirely so it no longer fits the trope - the original point was that because the episode didn't show Lily come to a similar realisation & instead focused on Marshall realising that he was wrong, it made it look like the viewer was supposed to feel sympathy for Lily rather than see the two of them accept they were both wrong.

Current wording's solid.

The previous example focused on the details of Lily's San Francisco trip, when the only thing that applies as the trope is that we are supposed to sympathize with Lily regarding Marshall bringing up her past mistakes. Many people felt Marshall was in the right to do so, meaning that Lily did not come across as sympathetic. That is all the trope needs to say.

OK, i'm happy to see that the wording on the trope has been changed, as it accurately states that it's the anti-Lily portion of fanbase that praised that scene and not the entire fandom, apologies for my editing before. The way the "unversally praised" phrase was originally used what drove me to editing it before, as that implied that the entire fandom liked that moment, which obviously wasn't true, thus it made the trope entry sound like a contradiction of the BB entry as I mentioned before. Overall i'm happy with how it's written now and I don't think anything about it really needs to be changed.