So it looks like a number of Unintentionally Unsympathetic entries were deleted for no reason given other than "trope misuse". Can someone please elaborate on how exactly? Just as an example, the Garleans in Endwalker seem like a textbook example of characters the player is supposed to sympathize with and want to help but their poor behavior and attitudes made many players wish they had the option of not helping. Really, I don't see a difference between the entries that are a proper usage of the trope and the ones that supposedly aren't.
Now that the six-month waiting period has passed, what's everyone's consensus on the prior edit to Zenos' entry in the Base-Breaking Character section, as well as Hydaelyn's entry.
Zenos
- This is lessened in Endwalker, where he goes through an arc after Fandaniel outwits him and takes over Zodiark for himself, and grows as a character after Alisaie gives him a scathing speech that deconstructs him and his motives. To the point that Zenos actually enters an enemy mine with the Scions and saves the WOL from the Endsinger in order to have a final duel with them. Some hate this, and don't approve of Zenos being the one to save the WOL after all the built up with the Scions, while others appreciate Ishikawa gave Zenos an arc and loved his big damn heroes moment, his blood knight personality being the perfect counter to the Endsinger's straw nihilist tactics, and subsequent final duel with him being considered the perfect ending his character could have gotten.
Hydaelyn
- Surprisingly Hydaelyn herself is hit with this after Endwalker, with some people loving her for her sorrowful backstory, determination, and Big Good energy despite her suffering, while others love her as a tragic character who made flawed decisions with the best of intentions, while others see her as Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
We don't super like how they're written ("hit with this" and such phrasing...), but the important question is: is the fandom still harshly divided over them, or has stuff cooled down by now?
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Yeah, probably should have started off with that. Could probably have also tried cleaning them up a bit rather than just copying and pasting them from the page's history.
I'm admittedly not that involved with the community, so I can't say for sure how the fandom views the two of them. I'm honestly only knowledgeable on a select few of the characters within the game, and Hydaelyn isn't one of these few so I can't saw for sure how the fandom now views hers.
In regards to Zenos, I feel like the fandom is still divided on him, but - like the edit argues - it's nowhere near as bad as how divided the community was on him during Stormblood and Shadowbringers. His story arc and final moments in Endwalker, as the edit argues, seem to have played a large role in that (one You Tuber has even argued that Endwalker fixed Zenos).
Speaking of which, I feel like we should also discuss Fandaniel's entry, given that Endwalker gave him a surprising amount of depth (though not to the length of Gaius and Emet-Selch) which I think may have endeared him more to the fanbase.
Edited by WiryAiluropodine
Hello,
I saw that keyblade333 made an edit to a paragraph I wrote, namely this one (his new version below):
"A common complaint from newer players is the massive number of Main Scenario Quests required to unlock access to the Heavensward areas, not helped by how many of those quests involve lots of "go here, talk to this person", lots of "go here, slay specific number of this monster", and/or long, exposition-heavy cutscenes. Yoshida admitted that putting Heavensward behind a gate that requires completing all 2.X content was a mistake and was looking into making 4.0 not require similar conditions to unlock... However, no update to the system was done, neither for 4.0 (Stormblood), nor 5.0 (Shadowbringers), and players wanting to experience Shadowbringers need to complete all main scenario quests from A Realm Reborn to Stormblood in order to access the 5.0 areas. We are talking about nearly 100 hours of playtime - if you skip all cutscenes and dialogue. A new player wanting to reach Heavensward but also wanting to enjoy the story will need several months before catching up to other players, and by the time they do, more patches would be released, extending the story even further."
While I won't comment on the removal of the last part about the Mog Station, I want to point out that I disagree with him changing the sentence "A new player wanting to reach Shadowbringers but also wanting to enjoy the story will need several months" to "A new player wanting to reach Heavensward but also wanting to enjoy the story will need several months" (changing the name of the expansion from Shadowbringers to Heavensward).
I wrote that entry when I created a new character myself (second character) and went through the story from 2.0 to 5.0, and thus I have first-hand experience on how long the whole ordeal take (I even used the /playtime command to check how long it took me). Nowadays, with boosted EXP, the now trimmed main quest and even with watching cutscenes, a new player shouldn't take months to reach Heavensward (unless going at a very leisurely pace, though this is a possibility I can't discard). The example was written with reaching Shadowbringers in mind. Therefore the example is, in my eyes, factually false after this change, and I think the example should be rewritten as it once was (at least in regards to the expansion), or rewritten to take into account the changes made to the MSQ to speed up the process (though we now have to take into account the post-game patches of Shadowbringers, and the entirety of Endwalker, which obviously adds quite a lot of gameplay and story hours).
I can't modify the example myself, as I would be taking part in an Edit War. Thus I create this discussion thread, and to get more input from other tropers/players to improve that example.
I invited Keyblade 333 to this discussion.
Edited by NonoRobot Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, the example you wrote is pretty clearly intended to be about reaching current content, not just getting out of ARR.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
That makes more sense. I thought it was strange the entry mentioned Shadowbringers since it seemed to be discussing getting to Heavensward, but overlooked the mention of current content. Sorry for that.
Muramasa got.
No problem. Since we all are in agreement I will rewrite the example to trim the fat (since it was pointed out to me not too long ago that Brevity Is Wit and that I need to stop writing novels in wiki pages) and to incorporate the current expansion and changes.
Edited by NonoRobot
Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
"The shift from "Watch the areas on the floor" to "Watch the boss" and "Watch the background/sky". On one hand, people point out that it makes the game more refreshing and makes you pay attention rather than zoning out - detractors on the other hand don't find it bad, just wish that they either explained it better, or "Trained" the player better. Others evne point out that the game technically did this since Void Ark in Heavensward, or even the "World of Darkness" in A Realm Reborn with Glare (a symbol that appears on the boss)"
I don't understand what this is talking about. Is this in relation to boss mechanics? I've never seen this kind of debate anywhere.
Muramasa got. Hide / Show Replies
This seems to refer to attacks being telegraphed indirectly; instead of an orange danger zone on the floor, you need to look at some part of the game world to figure out where the attack will hit.
We're not aware offhand of much discussion around this, but we don't spend that much time in the various fan forums.
... Unrelated, pretty sure this is an improper use of comment tags; either the example is valid or it isn't, and hiding it because you're not sure which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
I don't know if thats true but I went ahead and removed it for now.
Muramasa got.
Should Scrappy Mechanic warrant its own page? It is pretty huge.
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At the very least it should probably be cleaned up. A lot of it is rather redundant, especially the Relic Weapons entries - every single one of them can basically summed up as 'Forces the player to participate in parts of the game they would otherwise avoid or not engage with'.
As someone who wrote the entire Bozja weapon Scrappy Mechanic section... You are absolutely right. I'm not saying you can nuke what I wrote out of orbit (although I wouldn't object), but indeed the wall-of-text is not necessary and the relic weapons entries can be summed up easily.
Edited by NonoRobot
Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
The Ascian's being Unintentionally Unsympathetic needs to be discussed now due to the conflicting edits over it.
Muramasa got.
Since the Foe Yay entry keeps getting added and deleted, I think it should be discussed here to avoid that happening again in the future. The reason it's deleted is on the ground that the trope is a disambig; does anyone think disambig's can still be linked to, or else know a trope they can rebrand the entry under?
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It probably falls into Foe Yay Shipping, now that I think about it.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYayShipping
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Anyone else have any input or can think of a reason not to use that trope?
All right, I'm gonna rebrand it as Foe Yay Shipping, which will (hopefully) put an end to this recurring edit war.
I've moved the Scrappy Mechanic entries for Final Fantasy XIV to their own subpage. Not only was it taking up quite a bit of space on the YMMV page for XIV, but it also had entries on the subpage for the series in general. In the latter case, the entry for the Scrappy Mechanics of XIV was longer than every other folder combined, and featured duplicate entries to the one on the YMMV page.
I consolidated both sets of entries into one page, as well as removing any duplicate entries between the two pages.
The fantasy RPG videos that play in my head are amazing.