Mochi-Doughnut-man
I'm not a member of this series's fanbase, so I'm asking here. Does the Alvarez arc have enough fans to be listed under Broken Base? Everyone I've spoken to says it's terrible, although none of them were really liked the series anyway.
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A lot of fans liked the Mavis and Zeref subplot and many of the Spriggan Twelve were interesting characters, but the fights are among the worst in the series, the massive overdose of the Not Quite Dead trope, and everything the series takes flak for (anticlimactic fights, Ass Pulls, and the Status Quo Is God nature of the series) is brought Up To Eleven.
It wasn't the universally loathed Dork Age that is the Avatar arc, but to say Alvarez didn't live up to the hype would be the understatement of the year. Fairy Tail is absolutely not getting the send-off it deserves.
The Unknown Unknown
Should Broken Base be given it's page to be melded with Base Breaker/Fairy Tail? I think it's big enough to warrant it. Like how Sonic the Hedgehog and Fire Emblem Fates do it.
Edited by erazor0707 A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh. Hide / Show Replies
On which basis?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The premise of this topic: there was a deleted slab of text that I thought had merit, I took it and edited it extensively and am now providing the revision for people to look through or delete as they see fit (I'm not starting an edit war - if someone thinks even my revision should be deleted, they're free to delete it and I won't bring it back).
There was a large slab of text under Ass Pull looking at Ezra. Someone deleted it and the reason was “Says it's an Asspull—> explains, at considerable length, why it isn't.” I don't think that's correct – I remember being one of the people who edited some of this - but my disagreement is beside the point. This text performs two functions with its examples: describes the Asspull example and why it is considered as such, and then provides the logic behind it and/or the argument for why it could be explained away (or the reason it ‘’is’’ handwaved away). It gives both sides of the argument in somewhat neutral terms, preventing edit fights over whether it counts as an Ass Pull or not and giving credit to both points of view.
If you leave the examples out, I believe someone will add them in again at some point and will start up the entire cycle of edit warring over again.
I’m making a case for this extended paragraph (or slab of text, whatever you want to call it) to stay. I’ve re-edited the original and condensed it as much as I can, the result of which I’ll paste below, and I’m putting this modified version back under the Ass Pull section. If afterwards someone else deletes it, I’ll leave it out permanently. However if you’re looking to delete it and are familiar with the original, I ask that you please read the modifications through first. And of course, other editing is welcome.
_________________________________________________________
- Erza's fights, starting with Azuma, have fallen into a recurring formula: get beaten to hell (while still demonstrating Ezra-level fighting prowess), then pull what at least ‘’looks’’ like an Ass Pull (depending on your interpretation) to turn the tide of battle or instantly end it. The fact that isn’t uncommon for her to draw out previously unseen weapons, armour, clothing or techniques makes some of these Ass Pull incidents more consistent with her past behavior, but ultimately a lot of her large-scale fights are the subject of widely-contested Base Breaker-scale debates.
- The Ass Pull in her fight with Azuma was a two-part combination. The first part is due to Erza somehow hearing Jellal's voice from his jail cell (miles away from Tenrou Island) which helped her regain her senses after multiple beat-downs. There’s actually precedent for this seen earlier in the arc: Makarov reaching out with his mind to Laxus in a similar moment of crisis after being beaten by Purehito. So if reaching out to a loved one telepathically/mentally while in pain or beaten is the Ass Pull, Makarov’s example would be the establishing incident (notably both are on shaky grounds for plausibility).
- The second part of the Ass Pull in Ezra’s fight with Azuma is due to no one being amused by the idea of the "souls" of Ezra’s friends pushing her forward to pull off an OHKO sword swing against an enemy that she had damaged and worn down but wasn't close to finishing off.. This is the first instance of "Nakama Power" being used on a large scale to Ass Pull a win. Erza hearing her friends' voices/minds/souls (whichever makes you less exasperated) can be just barely handwaved as Ezra hearing an echo of her friends’ consciousness through their stolen magic, which was routed by Azuma via what was left of the Tenrou tree. After connecting with the Tenrou’s magic, Ezra then directed it to follow and support her final attack against Azuma – this could be a possible result of Mavis being active in the island’s magic, the Tenrou’s magic ceding to the will of a Fairytail wizard in an emergency, or even the collective wills of her friends (or what remained of their wills echoing through their magic) biasing control of their stolen magic in Ezra’s favour. Nonetheless, this ultimately breaks Willing Suspension of Disbelief; the biggest problem most people have is that it is a cheap narrative device to get a Heroic Second Wind.
- Using no defense and putting all her magic power into attack (making her a Glass Cannon) is a trick Erza started using after Tower Of Heaven when all her armor was either unusable or useless (note: the very first incident of shedding her armor at the Tower of Heaven was slightly different as it was part of her coming to terms with not needing her armour as a crutch). This has a reputation as a recurring Ass Pull which she calls on to immediately defeat her enemies, particularly ones like Azuma which she had barely made an imprint on previously. Despite varied opinions on whether this tactic counts as a straight up Ass Pull or not, the theory behind it makes sense as all her magic power is concentrated into the blade and a focal point of attack (whether used with a specialised weapon or normal katanas), which would greatly multiply her attack strength but make it so only a small number of landed attacks from the sword would be possible before her magic power ran out. Despite how plausibly lethal this tactic is, when used with rather convenient timing it gets a terrible rap from the fans.
- In her battle with Minerva in the Grand Magic Games arc, the Ass Pull comes when Ezra reveals that she somehow managed to delay activating Ultear’s Second Origin (unlike the rest of the group who used theirs immediately), keeping it in reserve to use as an instant Next Tier Power-Up. The central issue is that there’s no previous indication Second Origin can be used this way, and this conveniently comes after being pushed to her limit in her fight against Kagura just moments prior. Ezra then uses this delayed activation to her advantage to bring out a never-before-seen extremely-advanced armour set to quickly defeat Minerva with minimal effort. Despite that it is consistent with Ezra’s character and mentality that she would choose to see how far she could get in the Games on just her previous power alone, holding off powering up until the very last moment (or until things got serious – which happened when Minerva threatened the lives of Kagura and Milliana), this still left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of fans.
- Erza's fights, starting with Azuma, have fallen into a recurring formula: get beaten to hell (while still demonstrating Ezra-level fighting prowess), then pull what at least ‘’looks’’ like an Ass Pull (depending on your interpretation) to turn the tide of battle or instantly end it. The fact that isn’t uncommon for her to draw out previously unseen weapons, armour, clothing or techniques makes some of these Ass Pull incidents more consistent with her past behavior, but ultimately a lot of her large-scale fights are the subject of widely-contested Base Breaker-scale debates.
Re: Azuma part 1. Precedent = not an Ass Pull. Part 2 could use some pruning to be less wordy. By which I mean "Cut out everything but the example itself instead of including a wall of text theorizing a justification"
The part about using no defense and etcetera isn't even an example. It's just "Erza haters don't like that Erza did a thing".
Re: Erza's Second Origin and her new armor. Consistent characterization, consistent with her magical schtick, consistent all around for Erza. The only thing I'm seeing here is "Erza haters don't like that Erza did a thing".
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
My quick two cents,
Never understood the "using no defense" example.
Problems with the Erza/Azuma fight were simple. Her second-wind when she was able to re-establish herself due to hearing Jellal from his prison cell miles away was bullshyt, and the whole "ghosts pushing her forward for a OHKO attack" was borderline Narmworthy.
Erza/Minerva fight I could stomach if it didn't rely on the fact that Erza never had Second Origin activated until that point. There was no foreshadowing whatsoever that Second Origin could be used in such a way.
RLL
To comment on all the points made so far:
“Using no defense” – simple: using all her magic for attack and no magic for defense (usually a part of Ezra’s magic power goes into her armor – for defense – the idea is that shedding that concentrates all her magic power in entirety on attack)
Problems with the fight with Azuma? Yeah, except saying it like that is pretty biased and bullshity in itself. And something being “narm” doesn’t make it an Ass Pull. Can people please read the trope definitions.
“If it has a precedent – not an asspull”,. Except that makes the original the Asspull, doesn’t it? So still an example.
Now the small stuff is out the way…
It’s not a justification. It’s an argument for why people would think it’s an Ass Pull and why they disagree (or have a different opinion). It's representing the different opinions on each example. And honestly, considering the person who is making this complaint is the person who deleted this the last time, and has also deleted other huge chunks of text similarly, I’m somewhat reticent to buy into this point of view. I tried very hard to avoid justifications and make it obvious that each example is fairly open-ended with differing opinions – hence the stating of the different opinions. And trust me, these got thrown around a lot back and forth so these are in fact popular opinions and not “Ezra hate.”
For the person who just wants to “list examples” – if you just want to stick to stating the example with no reasoning of why it qualifies for the trope or why there might be contention, you will have a hell of a fight on your hands for butchering this page and you will still incur an ongoing editing war.
Anyway, like I said: these examples are from other people, and then I remember spending time editing them along with other people (and a lot of that was editing down any bias and Ezra hate – and an example which talks negatively about Ezra doesn’t qualify as “Ezra hate”). I’m representing other people’s contributions here and trying to be as neutral as possible in the process. And these are all viable examples and come under the definition of Ass Pull.
Can anyone give me a reason why we can’t list examples and the different viewpoints on a YMMV section? Because otherwise it’s just a constant editing war. Giving credit to valid arguments for “why” and “why not” it’s against the rules anywhere.
Now, I would LOVE it if someone could help me parse down the wordiness to a concise summary of what’s there. So please, I welcome editing! I just tried to unify and condense in a rather short time, trying to leave in things I remember other people being rather emphatic about before, but if there’s bits that other people think are unnecessary or should be summarised I’m all for that.
Although for all I know the same person who deleted this last time just annihilated the whole section again. And I’m not starting an edit war. So if it’s gone and no one wants to re-edit it and try again, I’m out.
Edited by ZeroCredibility
Just because criticism of Erza is popular doesn't necessarily mean it's not Erza hate. Hate can be popular. Hence The Scrappy. In this case, there's not even an example to work with, it's just complaining about the way that Erza wins her fights. And not even the way she does it come to that, but the equipment she uses when she does.
There's a difference between explaining why an example is an Ass Pull and "Possibly justified by x event that may explain why it isn't an Ass Pull". Contradictory opinions are irrelevant. If it's an example then it stays. If it's not, then it should be removed. Repair Dont Respond and all that.
Edited by Eagal You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
I like Erza as much as the next guy, but let's face it people. Her fights post-Edolas have been terrible.
A lot of people hate the Erza vs. Azuma fight because it ends with the whole "ghosts pushing her forward" part at the end of it, but that isn't an Ass Pull. It's just an extremely cheesey moment. It was actually an after-effect of what was the true Ass Pull in the fight, which was somehow receiving a second-wind because she was suddenly able to hear someone miles away telling her to continue fighting. If there's some deep connection that allowed for Erza and Jellal to communicate long distances, I sure didn't see it anywhere beforehand.
And I already mentioned the Erza vs. Minerva GMG fight. The revelation that Second Origin could be used as a hidden Next Tier Power-Up that can be activated at anytime was NOT implemented well. No hint whatsoever that Erza was only working on her normal magic-power the whole time prior to the fight before activating Second Origin.
Edited by Retloclive RLL
Due to the growing length of the YMMV page, it's become tempting to move examples into folders. Possible examples are as follows:
And so on.
And so on.
Thoughts?
Edited by Retloclive RLL Hide / Show Replies
Would it be possible to wait for an arc, or at least a fight, to be over before people start accusing the main cast of being God Mode Sues? It's kind of ridiculous when people start using the very first attack of a fight as "proof" that a character is a God Mode Sue. This series, like so many others, tends to use The Good Guys Always Win (there's a reason why it's an omnipresent trope), so I don't see why people are so surprised when they do, or feel the need to complain about it, especially since the Fairy Tail guild's generally considered to be one of the strongest guilds out there.
The complaint about Erza's "fight" with Kyouka was what triggered this (with said fight only having one chapter in it so far, with a grand total of one or two attacks used, and it's clearly not done yet, but people are still using it to say that Erza's a God Mode Sue), but many of the other examples seem like over-exaggerating or jumping the gun.
- Natsu assaulting Tartarus' base: while the fact that he was attacking them on his own (and was apparently the only one who could figure out that the ex-chairman could be a traitor) would have been ridiculous if he managed to beat any Tartaros members, he was quickly curbstomped, with even Franmalth, a character who seems like he'd be fodder, being able to match him.
- Natsu vs. Jackal: Natsu's entire ability revolves around eating fire or heat - Jackal uses explosions. He basically did the Dragon Slayer equivalent of Suck Out the Poison, which isn't exactly a stretch.
- Natsu vs. Zero: it had already been established that Jellal could use fire magic, and helping Natsu fight Zero however he could was his way of making up for what he did while he was brainwashed. (as well, it served as a way of redeeming him in the eyes of the characters and, supposedly, the audience)
- Erza vs. Minerva: let's be honest - who actually would have wanted to see Minerva win that fight? She'd been kicking so many dogs since her introduction that it was more of a matter of waiting to see how she'd be beaten. Catharsis seems like it plays a bit of a factor here, an explanation was given for why she couldn't use the new armour previously, and Erza isn't exactly known for having a low pain tolerance.
- Erza vs. Kagura: this seems to be a matter of perspective. The way I see it, they were supposed to be seen as equals (both of them managed to defeat each other's ultimate ability, with Kagura breaking Erza's strongest defense and Erza deflecting Kagura's unsealed sword, and there wasn't a decisive winner), but I guess people see the fact that Erza was the last one standing as proof that she's a God-Mode Sue
Some of the examples still seem to be justified (Sting and Rogue vs. Natsu, for example - while it was a way of demonstrating to the characters that, despite all of their uninformed bragging, they're still way out of the league of Fairy Tail's members (and Acnologia, by extension), it was odd that Natsu (who spent the entire series preaching about the power of friendship) would throw Gajeel to the side and effortlessly curbstomp the two of them), but a lot of them seem to be wildly exaggerating things or jumping the gun by called "God Mode Sue!" at the very beginning of an arc or fight. Just because The Good Guys Always Win (or usually win - there are exceptions, after all) doesn't automatically make them God Mode Sues (it says as much on the page for God Mode Sue) - if that was the case, the same complaint could be levelled at so many other franchises.
Edited by 99.249.132.186 Hide / Show Replies
^ this basically. You beat me to writing it. I think most of that stuff about Erza and Natsu being "God Mode Sues" should be in Wallbangers not YMMV.
Edited by 162.237.110.6
Thankyou so much for fixing that. It's really completely ridiculous to be shoehorning characters into God-Mode Sue when it's pretty obvious that it's just complaining about characters (or character aspects) people don't like. Although there's a lot of that kind of thing on this page.
The "Dragon Slayer second element" debate.
Let me just make one thing perfectly clear. I am NOT a fan of how these guys got their Power-Up. There is nothing fun about watching a battle go on only for one side to go like "Oh I know, I can just take the power I'm fighting against, make it my own, and do it in a way that's million times better than my opponent ever could!" It's a complete bs resolution to the fight, but clearly, there are a lot of people that don't see it that way since the Natsu's Lightning Power-Up, and Gajeel's Shadow Power-Up have been deleted on multiple occasions.
There's hardly any justifiable reason that these are considered legit since the Foreshadowing for Dragon Slayers to take on these specific second elements is bare-bones at best. But I don't care anymore. I'm sick of putting the examples back at this point.
Edited by Retloclive RLL Hide / Show Replies
Mmmm, might want to put this in a review, sire.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
You might want to tone down the anger in your edit reasons, by the way. I respect your opinion, but if something is legitimate misuse, it should be deleted, even if it's a YMMV trope. That being said, I'm not sure if your example was legitimate misuse or not since I haven't been totally up-to-date on the series. Like Septimus said, you can vent out your hate in the reviews section.
To trope, or not to trope...that is the question.
Meh. I wasn't that angry...I'm just tired of it all since you were hardly the first to delete the examples.
Edited by Retloclive RLL
If multiple different people have deleted the same example because it's either too biased to be legitimate or misused, then maybe that's an indication there is something wrong with it and it should be either re-worked or not be there. If it's becoming an issue between two biased parties deleting what they don't agree with, it should be hashed out in discussion or a neutral concession should be made.
The list from Fan-Preferred Couple just in case someone knows where to place these at a later time.
Fan-Preferred Couple is apparently only supposed to be used for wanting someone of an offical couple to be with somebody else. Like how the main page example is people wanting Katara with Zuko despite the canon pairing being Aang/Katara. The closest I've seen to an actual Fan-Preferred Couple in Fairy Tail would be some people wanting Erza with Natsu despite Erza/Jellal being the extremely obvious pairing.
I figured that Shipping Goggles would be a fine place for these examples but it seems I was wrong here. So ya, I'm lost with what to do here.
Including those that later become canon, there have been many shippings amongst the fans. The more popular pairs being:
- Lucy and Natsu.
- Natsu and Lisanna.
- Erza and Jellal (which is basically canon).
- Gray and Juvia. (Juvia pining after Gray is canon - although few people take it seriously)
- Gray and Lucy.
- Cobra and Cuberos/Kinana.
- Gajeel and Levy. (their interest in each other is canon)
- Elfman and Evergreen. (their interest in each other is canon)
- Zeref and Mavis. Which became canon in Chapter 450. Too bad Mashima's a troll, since Mavis dies right after the kiss.
- Mirajane and Laxus. Which funnily enough gets immediate preference in the fandom as soon as it appears despite Freed already pining for Laxus in nearly exactly the same way Juvia does for Gray (except less ridiculous).
- Wendy and Romeo...sort of. His sudden age-up to be around Wendy's age after the latter was frozen in time throughout the 7-year-timeskip doesn't sit well for some people.
- Despite only ever having one scene total interacting with each other throughout the series, Laxus x Lisanna
◊ actually has a surprising number of fans.
- Sting and Yukino.
- Sting and Minerva.
- Rogue and Yukino.
- Rogue and Minerva (depending on the point of view).
- Sting and Rogue.
- Kyouka and Seilah.
- Jerome and Blair.
- Lucy and Natsu.
Takat Empress
Hello I noticed how big this page has gotten so perhaps we should start putting tropes into folders. General for the main points and for everything else we could put them in character folders or story arc folders. Do you guys think this is a good idea?
Edited by Mizerous Mileena Madness Hide / Show Replies
Hi,
at 199852 characters it's not yet splitready, but yeah, alphabetic folders make sense.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Like with the trope section of the FT page it does makes sense.
Mileena Madness
About the Anticlimax Boss examples:
Did anyone actually read the definition for Anticlimax Boss? The definition is "what should have been a climactic Boss Battle was too easy."
The "Boss Battle" part is important. In other words, there should be very few examples outside of video games (just tabletop games and in-universe games). The entries here are just anticlimactic stuff in general, which is shoehorning. You may be looking for Anti-Climax.
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There is a freaking non-video games section on the page. Are you suggesting to delete that in its entirety? Also, these aren't Anti Climaxes. They are fights that end way too abruptly, not a plot that ends abruptly. And this "misuse" is all over the site.
I feel like it's a section that should be trimmed down at the very least. It seems like every time there's a fight, at least one person feels like it's an anti-climax just because the good guys didn't lose and uses that section as yet another excuse to complain. Particular examples include Kagura (where there was no clear winner until Minerva interfered), Future Rogue (where the point doesn't even complain about the fight, only his characterization), and Silver (which was a pretty climactic and important fight), which were fairly lengthy fights by the standards of the series (given that most fights are about two chapters).
In terms of the trope itself, I believe it could be placed under Anticlimax instead. The counterpart to Anticlimax Boss, Climax Boss, barely lists any non-video game examples, and it seems like Anticlimax Boss is more of a video game trope.
Edited by Megadoomer
I already have deleted most of the non-video game examples from Anticlimax Boss since they were the same kind of shoehorning (they have since been moved to Anti-Climax). And I don't care if the misuse is common - it's still misuse. That's like saying it's OK to use Mr. Fanservice to mean "guy who is attractive" because it's a common way to misuse it - it's not OK, it's still misuse.
Anticlimax Boss could probably use a TRS thread, now that I think about it.
I can somewhat understand getting rid of Anticlimax Boss to be used specifically for games, but is there no non-videogame trope that is the equivlant to this?
If not, perhaps an expansion of this trope is in order.
RLL
Hmm...I'm still somewhat confused. Is Anti-Climax even a YMMV entry?
RLL
The Fairy Tail YMMV has become particularly long at this point.
Might I suggest doing something similar to the One Piece / Naruto / Bleach YMMV pages for better organization by having a general section, and character folders.
RLL Hide / Show Replies
Alphabetical folders seem like a better move to me.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
We really need to edit this page, it's way too hate filled and argumentative. The Broken Base for example is simply sloppy. I feel we should simply gut most of the Natter.
Muramasa got. Hide / Show Replies
I am concerned about the Broken Base entry mostly talking about the causes for it rather than the broken base itself.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I agree with this. A lot of what's been written in Broken Base comes off more like Internet Backdraft than actual problems that have the fandom split.
RLL
I trimmed down the broken base section. A lot of it (particularly in the part about fanservice) was just complaining about that particular aspect on a chapter-by-chapter basis as those chapters came out, so I tried to summarize it as the Tartaros arc as a whole. I hope that's okay.
And the problem concerning Lucy's lack of magical power at the time she summoned the Spirit King was indeed adressed: the King was forced to retreat - but not before freeing everyone from Allegria and (temporarily) turn the Curse back to its caster - precisely because Lucy was running out of magic, otherwise, he could've stayed and kicked Marde's ass (probably).
I want to point out that just because Mirajane's Take Over didn't affect Seilah, it doesn't mean it wouldn't affect her powers. It seems Mira can use her abilities on anything of demonic origin, unless it's too strong for her to control; while Seilah as a whole is no Take Over material, maybe Mira is powerful enough to be able to steal a fraction of her Macro. Plus, it was never established Take Over only affected living beings by their entirety, so there was room for that possibility. On the subject of her defeat, it may be quite jarring that she was defeated with a single strike, but maybe she was already worn out from her fight against Mira, not to mention Elfman attacked her from above, with his Megaton Punch strength being enhanced not only by his own magical power, but also by gravity and, perhaps, Mira's use of Macro. But that's only a theory, TBH.
What do you guys think about Insane Forgiveness for Flare? I mean, I get she had a Freudian Excuse, but I'm almost certain nobody ordered her to threaten to murder a child just to win (I'd accept she may have been told "Do what you must to win," but I doubt she was Just Following Orders on that one, nor do I even feel it's a good enough reason). Then, a few chapters later, Oh look! She apologized and has people she cares about! She's a good guy now! I don't know, it seems like a pretty quick and flimsy side change.
Edited by 67.82.250.121
Hello,
So, I know we are on the YMMV page, but I think we need to take a closer look at the tropes present on this page. Recently, the main characters of Fairy Tail, who were discussed under The Scrappy trope, were moved to the Base Breaker trope. However, the way the examples were written wasn't modified, so much that the examples still made references to the preceding trope they were belonging to, "The Scrappy" trope. Copy/pasting examples isn't a good thing when you are moving them to an another trope.
However, I'm wondering where some examples really belong: do some of them belong to the Base Breaker trope, others to The Scrappy trope, or both ? There's also the option to not include them in these tropes at all, though it would be rather difficult for some (and, well, that's the difficulty when we are discussing YMMV tropes). I think we need a discussion about the characters in question. Also, I kinda feel that The Scrappy trope became way too general and thus could be applied to nearly anyone (just look at the list of examples present on the trope page !), but that's an another subject.
So, I would like to hear your opinions about the following main characters:
- Natsu
- Erza (also, I'm wondering if she could be listed under the God-Mode Sue trope).
- Lucy (her example needs at least some rewriting: she's no "ordinary girl", and I think (that's just my opinion) that she's perfectly able to take care of herself, though her victory records aren't very flattering).
Thank you very much for your help and inputs.
Edited by NonoRobot Hide / Show Replies
As far as Natsu goes, I know some people don't like the fact that he falls into Invincible Hero more often than anyone else - even if it's incredibly clear that he's outmatched by his opponent (for example, his fights with Jellal, Zero, Zancrow, and Hades), he'll gain some new power-up out of nowhere to win in the end. Sure, a lot of these victories come about with the assistance of others, supporting the "Power of Friendship" theme that many other shonen series preach but don't practice (since most confrontations are one-on-one), but there are some people who will just call it an Ass Pull and move on.
For Erza, God Mode Sue doesn't really fit. Going by the description on the trope page, a God Mode Sue is someone who turns every battle into a Curbstomp Battle in their favour. There isn't even the slightest hint of suspense, and you're never even left wondering how the hero will get out of this dangerous situation because they're never placed in any sort of dangerous situation to begin with. By contrast, Erza's fights tend to be more along the lines of How Much More Can She Take than anything, and there are lots of times where she is backed into a corner and her defences fail her. Not to mention that the inclusion of Sue tropes seems to be frowned upon, whether it's in YMMV pages or otherwise.
As for Lucy, any negative reaction towards her seems to be more along the lines of What Measure Is a Non-Badass? in that, though she has grown and developed as a fighter over the course of the series, she's still not seen as being as badass as Natsu, Erza, or Gray. As a character, that doesn't particularly matter, but as the lead heroine in a shonen series, it makes it so people tend to look down upon her in comparison to the rest of the main cast.
Personally, I like the main cast, but I can see why some people wouldn't - it all depends on how you look at the series.
And things just get worst and worst.
For Natsu, I'd add that his Hot-Blooded typical shonen hero syndrome and Invicible Hero traits have been turned Up To Eleven. He has Large Ham tendencies and always steal the spotlight of everyone, so much than some actually forget that Lucy (and not HE) is the protagonist. Beating the villain (or finishing him) all alone while other characters could have help more or be more suited than him to go on the fight... He also became an hypocrite during the GMG Arc. It didn't help his case.
As for Lucy, she is not a newbie anymore. That's for sure. And she had proved herself very capable on her own. Plus, her personnality could make her interesting by contrast of her teamates ... But despite that, she suffers Over Shadowed By Awesome syndrome. Also, lately she mainly serves as The Woobie ans this is a shame.
Another possibility is that the fandom may be getting tired of the main cast. This is understandable for a long-running series. And most of the time when other characters are temporarily put under the spotlight or just appears (which is nice for these characters fans and is refreshing in general) they are finally useless; letting the main cast (or just Natsu) do the job alone or their actions are disapointing.
They are not Scrappy since they still have some fans loyalty. But yeah, for other fans it's hard to keep liking them.
Ok, who deleted my perfectly reasonable notes clarifying why Natsu could do what he did during his fight against Jackal and the real reasons behind Minerva joining a Dark Guild? That wasn't simply a fan gushing about the work he likes, that's me making a valid point about those two situations based on information taken from the manga itself, showing a second possible interpretation in regards to the topics aforementioned! That's a YMMV page, for God's sake! Theremust be a space open for more than one interpretation, or else, it loses all its purpose!
Edited by 189.60.246.243 Hide / Show Replies
Why does Natsu get so much hate here? I dont see the God Mode Sue traits. It just seems like the people on the YMMV hate the idea of Natsu winning.
Why Future Rogue is being called a Satellite Character in this page? I don't see how his character floats around someone else's.
Edited by 189.60.246.243
Should the Alvarez empire have a section in the standard evil empire hierarchy page