Should the death of one of the most iconic characters in the series be a case of It Was His Sled? Many know about it already, many were spoiled about it too
Pulled from What An Idiot:
- Captain Marvel, who almost certainly can use the Infinity Gauntlet and live, doesn't bother to do so to finish the fight after taking it from Spider-Man and instead tries to put it in the van's quantum tunnel, giving Thanos a chance to knock it out of her hands and forcing Iron Man to sacrifice his life. One could excuse it given that she is acting on instinct and that it's the heat of the moment clouding her better judgement, especially considering she is probably used to just powering through her obstacles, but in retrospect it really affects how one can interpret Tony's death scene, bordering on Senseless Sacrifice.
Because it relies heavily on speculation that Captain Marvel can use the Gauntlet and survive. Not only is that never stated or implied anywhere, even if she did, she wouldn't know that. I tried rewriting it into a more general "she doesn't even try to use it" but that wound up being less What An Idiot and more "well, she could've tried doing the thing that will probably kill her" which... yeah.
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Christ, people will try to twist just about anything to bash Captain Marvel, won't they
Agreed, zap it.
After all, we see that the stones have enough power to cripple Thanos and Hulk, two of the strongest, toughest characters in the movie. It's also implied that Thor, who got hit with the power of a star in Infinity War wouldn't have survived if he'd tried to use them, and Tony outright died when he attempted it. Seeing all that, I think it's reasonable to say that nobody would try using the stones while getting them away from Thanos is still possible.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
I mean, Marvel is pretty explicitly stronger than the Hulk... except that thanks to "gamma radiation" handwave, Hulk was extremely suited to using the stones and he was half-killed.
In fact, Marvel's powers come from one of the stones. I don't know if this makes it more or less likely but it's a completely huge unaccounted-for variable that could go wildly either direction.
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^ True. And yes, we saw her no-sell a hit from one stone. Not to mention that her powers and endurance are vaguely defined, something that, as you pointed out, leaves a lot of room for speculation.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that you can't exactly call someone an idiot for not using something that can potentially kill them —or, at the very least, seriously injure them. Now, if we'd known that she could have used the stones and survived, that would be a whole other story.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
She was strong enough to destroy Thanos without the Gauntlet. The plan was to get rid of it and then Thanos. Plan didn`t work. Doesn`t mean that it would be reasonable to use the Gauntlet herself.
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So the girl power scene was removed as a narm example with the reason as discussed this is not an example of narm.
WHERE was this discussed, because it is not on this, the discussion page for Avengers Endgame. If no one can give me an answer then I am readding it as it strikes me as someone taking it upon themselves to make stuff up.
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It was discussed on the Narm Clean-Up thread. Right here
(you need to clean-up the URL because UR Ls still won't link properly on Discussion pages).
If you want to add it back, I suggest taking through that thread first. The entry has been the subject of edit wars and adding it back without discussion will only add to that.
Fair enough. I disagree but at the same time I will never go against the community especially if it creates drama.
I feel like the Unfortunate Implications examples aren't valid. I know that the nature of YMMV means that there will be disagreements, but I personally don't see a problem with widow's death. Being sad that a character dies is kind of the point of a character dying. And I loved the scene of natasha and clint fighting for who makes the sacrifice. I think the whole thing of "A single woman sacrificing her life for a married man" is absolutely ridiculous. It's a superhero film, for crying out loud.
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Unfortunate Implications is citations based. Doesn't matter what you think.
Regarding the following:
[They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:] Natasha's death has been seen as this by a lot of fans. Despite her being around since Iron Man 2 and, for the longest time, the only female Avenger, her death removes her from the narrative prior to the climatic 'Avengers Assemble' moment which also means she misses out on the 'girl power' scene as well. Some have further argued that Natasha's death is not given anywhere near the same emotional impact as Tony's (notably, she doesn't get an onscreen funeral like he doesnote ) and that she was Stuffed into the Fridge for Clint and the other male heroes' momentary angst rather than serving her own story arc. That said, others have argued that a Heroic Sacrifice to save half the universe is a meaningful conclusion to her long-running quest to "clear her ledger", and the multiple scenes devoted to her memory and other Avengers' coping with her passing. The still apparent possibility of a future film doesn't quite leave the door shut on her character after her passing, either.
Natasha died, so everyone's peeved that she got Stuffed in the Fridge, even though it was her own choice and she had to nearly beat Clint to submission in order to prevent him from sacrificing his life. But if Clint, the family man whose entire family had been dusted, had died instead, then everyone would be peeved that Men Are the Expendable Gender. Personally, I think it's an example of Unpleasable Fanbase, but I might be in the minority.
I've commented out the example for the time being. Thoughts?
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying! Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, I think it should be removed. I see little reason why Widow's death is takes that poorly, and it certainly shouldn't be Wasted A Perfectly Good Character. If they didn't complain about Gamora in IW, then why the hell are they complaining about Widow's
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
I personally hate the decision because I vastly prefer the character to Hawkeye and think she had a lot more potential for interesting stories, but I admit it's mainly a subjective matter and that the sacrifice itself was well done. The fact that it happened to the only female Avenger is indeed extremely unfortunate and another reason I hate the decision, but as far as the internal narrative goes I thought it was was well done and fitting for the character and avoided tripping most Stuffed in the Fridge flags.
So not this trope, although probably worth considering as a Broken Base entry later on if it persists, or an Internet Backdraft if it gets heated enough.
Edited by AlleyOop
Broken Base and Internet Backdraft have a mandatory 6-month waiting period, IIRC, but I think they're applicable here.
Waiting for a few more people to voice their opinion / give the 'go ahead' before axing the example.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Kill it.
I think its one of those cases where no matter happened people would have been unhappy. Plus this doesn't really have any of the hallmarks of Stuffed in the fridge anyway.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Enough days have passed; I'm going to remove it. Thanks for the help, everyone!
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
I feel like the What An Idiot examples aren't valid. At the very least, they rely on complaining that the characters aren't operating with information that the audience has. Regarding the Nebula one, there's no way they could no that Past!Nebula could get involved, since she's not even supposed to be on the same planet for the brief time they're in the past. And the other two justify themselves in their entries.
So either we leave the Esoteric Happy Ending part about the ending for Cap, or people just stop editing it or erasing it as if their headcanon is actually right, and other people opinions aren't. The only reason we have those entries is specifically because there are many issues with Cap coming back at the end without seemingly using a time device, ignoring the time travel rules setup by the entirety of the movie runtime. It's not even an issue about WMG or Headscratchers, but apparently people can't accept the movie being little less than perfect.
Edited by Edgar81539 Hide / Show Replies
Oh yeah, also the time travel rules suddenly being what others think they are doesn't change the other issues people have with the ending, like Cap coming back 12 years older and traumatized to Peggy, kissing with his now grand-niece, letting Bucky behind while he gets another chance, and another Steve being frozen while he lives the good life with that other Peggy (if you subscribe to the additional timeline theory).
I agree that the entry should definitely be there as there's already quite a lot of criticism of both the characterization and logic aspects of it. It's a happy, feel-good ending and people are allowed to like it as a result, but that doesn't undo the Fridge Logic quite a lot of people feel over it. It should definitely be restored even if it's not yet clear exactly what part of it is off until further explanation comes along. Just that given all the negative reactions to it, something about it, somewhere, definitely is.
Edited by AlleyOop
Un, I would like to add a new example under Memetic Mutation about “Save Tony Stark” because it’s so popular lately, even NASA gets in on it, but the page is locked for quite a while now. Do we have to wait until the movie is out for us to edit the YMMV page again?
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Ask for to be added in this thread
That's because links don't work in Discussion pages. Go to the Forums, the first or second thread in the very first forum (the FAQ one) is the "Make edits to locked pages" thread.
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On that note, I'd like this to be added later:
- It Was His Sled: A rare marketing-based one. The initial trailer was simply titled "Marvel's Avengers" to avoid spoiling the subtitle reveal at the end... Which worked for about two minutes, at which point knowledge that Endgame was the subtitle spread everywhere. If anything, more people learned about the subtitle before they even saw the teaser.
As a point of inquiry, there has been some media cross-referencing between Avengers Endgame and the third episode of Game Of Thrones Season 8 which is set as a major battle against the Night King and the army of White Walkers. Primarily about how both series will involve THIS WEEKEND the wiping out of beloved major characters. Is there a way of including such references like this Vox article https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/25/18513254/avengers-endgame-game-of-thrones-finale-geek-culture without revealing too much...? 'cause all I got to say right now is, this is gonna be a rough week for House Stark.
Someone removed a What An Idiot post pointing out that nobody thought sending Nebula to the same time as her pre redemption self could cause problems like...well, exactly what happened. I feel this should be fixed.
Adding in a few thing for Memetic Mutation:
- "Avenge the Fallen"Explanation
Since there's a lot of this going around after the second trailer:
- Crack Pairing: Valkyrie and Carol Danvers. There's no indication that the two will even interact much less share screentime, but there's already many half-joking posts by fans about how Thor sees Carol as a worthy date for Valkyrie after she proves her mettle to him. Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson seem to know about the ship and have given their blessings.
Currently Suspended
Memetic Mutation: That's a bit of a weird one, but since a twitter poll voted "Ant-Man shrinking into Thanos' ass" above "Captain Marvel" as the final solution, tons of people joked about it. I wish I was joking, but one look at 9gag or Twitter is enough to confirm this.
Currently Suspended
WTH, Costuming Department?: "These suits are hideous" Many people agree.
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Which suits are hideous? You mean the white team suits (which might or might not be context-specific and temporary anyway)? The general team oufits (which we haven't gotten a full glimpse of)?
You gotta be specific...
Yes, the white suits. I thought the quote made it obvious. They are less preferable to the individual character designs.
People were saying that when they saw the suits in concept arts, but now in the trailer most reactions I read were that they actually do look good in the actual movie.
I already commented on the captain marvel subpage but I'm going to add my comment here: why does this page has a YMMV page but captain marvel doesn't?
There's a rule saying that highly anticipated works shouldn't have a YMMV page pre-release but it seems to be quite inconsistent at this point.
The Man Outside Reality
If there's someone who can add something to the Memetic Mutation subpage, would they consider adding "Some people X...but not us"? I tried finding the forum thing that allows you to request this formally, but the system was really confusing and convoluted.
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I'd normally link to the thread, but hotlinks are still screwed up on the Discussion pages.
Go to the forums, go to "Frequently Asked Questions" (at the very top of the list of forums), go the "Locked Pages" thread, and post the entry you wish to add exactly as you'd like to see it on the locked page in question.
Does Steve's decision to Time-travel back to the 1940s count as an Ass Pull?