Discussion YMMV / AttackOnTitan

Just readded the Fan Dumb section back. Based on the above topic and the P Ms I and probablyinsane sent each other of the matter. It was a case of someone getting annoyed that this was the first Fan Dumb entry instead of just adding more himself. Some Fan Dumb suggestions he wanted to be added before the Hange thing were about some fans seeing Levi's official name and Annie's nose as negative Jewish stereotypes, and about some people making fanart where Mikasa is shorter than Eren.

Rewritten and reposted the Fan Dumb entry based on an opinion given in a Tv Tropes WikiTalk forum discussing it.

• Fan Dumb: A noteworthy one was unintentionally created by the series' Trolling Creator. In an interview, Hajime Isayama was asked what was Zoë Hange's gender due to Viewer Gender Confusion. He jokingly answered the question by giving a Shrug of God despite various artwork proving that Hange was a woman. Some fans, not knowing Isayama's Trolling Creator antics, took his Shrug of God as Word of God and took it meaning that Hange was either gender neutral, outside the gender binary, or even a post operation transgender person. Some of these fans that were taken by Isayama's antics, rationalized that Hange can be one of these based on the fact that since the series has gay characters, it can have a character like this as well. Some of these fans, not familiar with Japanese pronouns, justified Isayama's statement by stating Hange's gender was concealed due to the use of Japanese gender neutral pronouns, not understanding that these were just part of a unique speaking style being used for more than just Hange. Some of these fans, in order to justify how the conflicting artwork could coincide Isayama's statement, theorized that Hange was a post operation transgender person despite the possible Fridge Logic of that theory. All these due to Isayama being a Trolling Creator.

For further discussion on the matter whether LGBT issues created by Fan Dumb should be listed as Fan Dumb see the Tv Tropes WikiTalk forum.

The only thing I really have a problem with is that you keep listing this under Fan Dumb. Isayama has not given Zoë's gender as male or female; this means that fans can logically assert that Zoë is, as you say 'gender neutral, outside the gender binary, or even a post operation transgender person'. I've looked at the Wiki Talk forum; I'd argue that 'This was a case of Fan Dumb as the character in question was clearly a female due to an obvious bustline' is incorrect, since physical traits and gender do not necessarily align. If you'd like to repost this under, say, Ambiguous Gender (as it was some time ago) I'd be perfectly happy to leave it as it is.

Actually the closest thing that Isayama has given for Hange's gender is a fake preview◊ wherein Hange is described as a "girl" in love with a Titan. True it's a joke from a Trolling Creator, however the whole issue was started because another joke of his was taken too seriously. In fact, the whole idea wouldn't even be entertained if he didn't joked about it.

For the bustline issue, it's true that physical traits and gender do not necessarily align when it comes to LGBT situations. However when identifying a character right off the bat, physical traits are the first thing people use to identify gender. See a person with an obvious female body is going to labeled as a female right away. Most people don't even entertain the idea that this person might be "gender neutral, outside the gender binary, or even a post operation transgender person" as an initial thought unless something off tells. Only when some new info is revealed like Wordof God, or the person even outright says they are transgender or otherwise, do people start thinking this.

In terms of fans logically asserting that Hange maybe a "gender neutral, outside the gender binary, or even a post operation transgender person", it's more likely that they'll logically assert that she's a female based on appearance as I've explained beforehand. Sure there might be some fans who would think otherwise based on Viewer Gender Confusion, however due to the various anime artwork circulating and Isayama's art becoming better, that confusion might dwindle down. They'd however probably think otherwise if they read the interview and didn't know that Isayama was joking. Other than that interview in the equation, I don't think fans will logically come to this conclusion especially if they only read the manga or watch the anime.

The only other way that fans might come to that conclusion, would be the misunderstanding of the Japanese gender neutral pronouns used. However that's a speaking style as pointed out.

In reposting it as Ambiguous Gender, I think it's probably more appropriate to list as Fan Dumb. It is a genuine case of Fan Dumb as it was people misunderstanding something and being adamant about it. Reposting it as Ambiguous Gender is a bit weird too. The content is kinda going against the label. In places other than a YMMV page, Ambiguous Gender can be used as a trope describing the situation. In a YMMV page on the other hand, it seems more appropriate to list it as Fan Dumb.

An Ambiguous Gender entry on a YMMV page from what I understand would mean that a character's gender seems ambiguous to some people due to looks. Viewer Gender Confusion however covers that. For Hange, she already has some mention in Viewer Gender Confusion however that's more a case that people mistake her for a man rather than a case of being "gender neutral, outside the gender binary, or even a post operation transgender person".

• http://inksplotched.tumblr.com/post/53894562887/on-misgendering-hanji-zoe
• http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/52716450297/five-eta-four-sorry-of-the-main-characters
• http://shingeki-kyojin.livejournal.com/2673.html

Three posts from people who have a better understanding of the subject.

Most of my problem with listing it under Fan Dumb is that's pretty disrespectful to the people in favor of the 'genderqueer Hange' interpretation because they want representation (but i see you've already made note of that on the forum). It's along the same lines of Chihiro in Dangan Ronpa re: whether they're a crossdresser or Mt F.

My suggestion: take a page from the Dangan Ronpa YMMV page, remove the Fan Dumb entry, and invoke Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement on the Broken Base entry, so as to avoid any further friction.

Though I am not well versed with Dangan Ronpa, what little I've read of Chihiro is a bit justifiable. The game actually states that he is actually a crossdresser. From there, people can justifiably argue whether or not Chihiro is just a crossdresser or a Male to Female transgender. Which naturally is the case with most cases with crossdressers.

With Hange, nothing in the manga or anime hints to this. It all originates from an old interview that some fans have misunderstood and become somewhat overzealous. With more and more official material coming out, mostly from the anime, the misinterpretation looks more and more like a case of Fan Dumb.

As for being disrespecting to these people, please read a quote from the main Fan Dumb page.

These fans have so far have been one of the loudest, going as far as to affect TV Tropes also. However, they are really misunderstanding something.

As for wanting representation, they are already other characters that can fill that role. There's Ymir and Reiner. There's also Nanaba to a degree yet nobody makes a big deal.

The Fan Dumb entry on Dangan Ronpa has not been removed. Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement can only go so far especially when dealing with the matter here. Though stating that "only TV Tropes enforces the use of referring Hange as a female" may have broken the rule. At the very least, it sounds that only TV Tropes disagrees with these fan when in reality there are other fans and sites that argue otherwise.

The Broken Base entry could be rewritten I guess to avoid friction however most of what is listed there other than the matter does cause friction. Mikasa' abs comes to mind. It is a Broken Base entry after all.

The Fan Dumb entry however does need worth mentioning as per the various reasons via the links I gave and the Wiki Talk forum.

There was somebody who argued that other characters, like Pixis, were also never referred to with gendered pronouns yet nobody raised a fuss about them. The problem with that thinking is that those characters' genders were never brought up in an interview, only Hange's.

Calling those fans 'overzealous' is a bit of a generalization considering the interview also led to a string of Japanese fanart depicting Hange as male (or so I heard)—can they all really be product of a joke?

Re: representation: Ymir and Reiner deal with sexuality, not gender. Nanaba has never been given any sort of focus, either, nor has her(?) gender ever been called into question. That's why the issue w/ Hange's gender has been focused on Hange alone. I think the chain of reasoning there was how the author's been good about representing gay characters so a character who doesn't conform to the normal gender binary shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I read through your post on the forum earlier—I appreciate how you've acknowledged that Fan Dumb is kind of offensive and that you would have used a different name if it were available (maybe a renaming is in order?)

Ultimately I think this matter will only be resolved if someone manages to contact the author directly (not with a third party like the animation studio) to ask about Hange's gender. That doesn't seem likely, though.

From what I understand, the thing about Hange being only brought up in that interview, is that it was not a question about characters with gender neutral pronouns. It was about the original interviewer having Viewer Gender Confusion on Hange based on the earlier artwork from the manga. The interviewer thought Hange looked "manly". By manly, I'm guessing the interviewer either meant that Hange looked cool or looked like a man. Despite this though, the interviewer did say that they thought Hange looked like a girl. By that analysis, I guessing the interviewer was asking for confirmation for just this particular character. The author in response stated that since this question is being asked this particular way, he's just not going answer.

From this interview, people apparently misinterpreted it meaning that Hange is outside the normal gender binary. To justify this, they stated that since Hange is constantly being referred to with gender neutral pronouns, the interview must be true. The problem with this that they are apparently only taking note of the use of said pronouns directed at Hange. They are apparently only reading and listening to the pronouns directed at her. They are apparently not taking note that these pronouns are also being used for Pixis and other characters. Selective blindness or something like that. This is what the person arguing about why Pixis or other characters that are referred to with gender neutral pronouns aren't being made fussed about is talking about from what I understand.

It should also be noted that the original interview was an old one. Since then, while the author has not written in a manga panel or stated in an interview outright that Hange is a female, he has given all sorts of gender identifying flags that point to her being female. There is the joke preview◊ wherein Hange is in a skirt and called a girl, her first name being Zoe, her appearance in alternate high school universe spinoff that the author apparently made, and his art being more refined in later chapters. The anime is even giving more gender identifying flags. While I guess it can be argued that all this flags don't mean anything, it has to be noted that apparently for the Japanese, these flags define a character's gender and not the use of pronouns or outright statements to a degree. It has also has to be noted that applying real world gender issues in a fictional story might complicate things. At least western gender views might complicate matters.

I guess some of the fanart can be attributed to Rule 63, however for those fanart that were made based on the interview, I could guess that the creators were partially a bit too overzealous or something like that. Of course Fan Dumb though can creep into fanart as any other fanon facet. I mean there are fanart that bash one Fan-Preferred Couple over another which in itself could be seen as Fan Dumb depending on the degree, so yeah. Though I'm basing my description of calling them overzealous based on what they did here and how it bothered fellow troper harostar.

As for the author's response being a joke. It most likely was a joke given his reputation as a Trolling Creator. From I've read and remember, he appeared on tv all dressed in a Titan costume yet all he did was spout nonsensical gibberish unrelated to his manga.

Nanaba has indeed never been given focus due to various reasons, however her(?) situation is probably more of a better example than Hange due to not having as many gender identifying flags as Hange. I mean a character who acts and looks more ambiguous is more likely to be interpreted as being outside the gender binary than one who acts and looks less ambiguous.

While it's not that out of a stretch that a character who doesn't conform to the normal gender binary should exist alongside gay characters, that's almost a bit offensive in another light I guess. People labeled under LGBT are all grouped together as such because they are outside the binary sexuality and gender norms. However, they are not all the same. Lesbians are not necessarily equal to Gay guys and vice versa, Bisexuals are not necessarily equal to those two, and Trans Equals Gay is not always the case.

Likewise, the existence of one or more LGBT issue in a work doesn't necessarily mean all issues can and should exist. I mean like in most Yuri Genre manga, the Yaoi Genre doesn't exist in them and vice versa. Mass Effect as better example, caters to people who want Shepard to be a Lesbian, to be a Gay guy, or be Bisexual but it doesn't cater to those who may want Shepard to a transgender character. Sure, the player can technically fill that role in a sense, but there isn't a option that allows people to change Shepard's gender midgame to reflect a transgender person.

Or something like that.

For renaming the section, I really don't know of any YMMV trope that fits the description that these fans expressed other than what is written in Fan Dumb.

Umm... Kodansha's the manga publisher, not the animation studio producing the anime. From what I've gathered Kodansha is more involved with what the author says making them just as good as Word of God.

For the animation studio itself. While there have been some anime that have changed the gender of a character for various reasons like Fruits Basket, I don't think it's the case here. Apart from lipstick-like shine on females, the anime's so far been faithful to the manga in terms of gender.

Sorry, this is an old conversation, but I do think this is an important discussion.

The problem with all of this is that I don't see why 'an character interpretation that probably isn't true' would automatically fall under Fan Dumb, particularly when the issue is as sensitive as this one. Almost all interpretations of characters as nonbinary would be contrary to what the author intended because practically nobody except nonbinary people acknowledge they exist. So for people like that, interpreting characters this way is often the only way they can see themselves in media. And when there actually is some evidence behind it, even if it's flimsy and inconclusive, it can be all the more important to them. Is this a ridiculous, antisocial thing to do? To want to see yourself in some kind of form in the stories you love?

If the fans were claiming that Hange absolutely has to be genderqueer and were really aggressive about it, that would probably be Fan Dumb, but from what I've seen that isn't the case. They're just people for whom anything that can be interpreted as evidence of representation is really, really important and means a lot to them, and so choose to take on that interpretation. Calling that Fan Dumb sounds an awful lot like calling them idiots, and for what? There are far, far less canonically supported fan interpretations in other series and this one that aren't put under that category, and which revolve around issues much less likely to result in people being beat up or even killed in real life.

'It has also has to be noted that applying real world gender issues in a fictional story might complicate things.' I don't really understand this? Apart from the fact that there are female soldiers fighting alongside male ones without any apparent conflict, and we haven't seen much indication of sexism in the SNK world, we don't have any indication to think that gender would be viewed in a vastly different way. E.g., there are a fair few female characters with long hair, but no male ones that I can remember with it. And even if there were I wouldn't see any reason to believe that transsexuals wouldn't exist. To be honest, it's kinda...erasurey to imply that? I mean, it kind of implies that transsexuality isn't natural. If you claimed that it's silly to apply ideas about sexual orientation to a fictional world and so that there's no place for gay/bi people there, people would be offended and rightly so.

'the existence of one or more LGBT issue in a work doesn't necessarily mean all issues can and should exist.' I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean that if there are gay characters there doesn't need to be transsexual characters? I'd highly disagree there - although LGBT people are all listed together in that acronym, the groups are often VERY separate in practice and representation is certainly extremely different. This fact is all the more reason why they should all be present in the same work - not because LGBT 'have' to be together or something, but because real life has all of those kinds of people and any work representing a reasonably broad picture of real life should include them. The number of canonically gay characters is much, much higher than the number of canonically trans characters, and that's true even though the number of gay characters out there is still far below the number of gay people. Transsexual people can't relate to gay characters in the same way as transsexual characters - they're just not the same things at all. And it's not like the fans are saying that there HAS to be a transsexual character in SNK (though statistics would say there should be), just that this character could be interpreted that way and that it's an interpretation they like.

Unless you're claiming that not all kinds of people in the LGBT acronym need to be present in any one work, in which case: first of all, as I said, statistics would indicate that yes, there should be, since SNK has such a large cast. It wouldn't need to be a huge thing - if Hange were canonically genderqueer, that'd be fine for a count of one transsexual character. But even then, that's not what people are arguing. They just think that any representation is better than none and that here's a good place for it.

And in regards to your Yuri Genre example, that's because Yuri Genre manga have a very narrow focus - one or a small number of lesbian couples. If they included transsexual characters in the process, then that's great! But it wouldn't be unreasonable if they were all cis. On the other hand, SNK has a HUGE number of characters, so it really would be strange if they were all cisgendered.

What about putting these interpretations just under Alternate Character Interpretation? Or LGBT Fanbase? Or at least rewriting it to allow that there are many (all from what I've seen but whatever let's be generous) who interpret Hange as genderqueer who are perfectly reasonable, and that many who are against that interpretation are being hurtfully aggressive towards an already highly oppressed minority group? The term 'Fan Dumb' is just...really, really honestly kind of offensive in this context? I mean, one of the things Fan Dumb is defined by is an 'overdeveloped sense of victimisation' which is just awful here because a) as I'm saying, very few of them are seriously militant about Hange's gender, and b) no matter which way you look at it, transsexuals ARE victims, and HUGE ones in our society. Implying that they're 'playing the victim card' or something because of wanting to see some representation of them in media that isn't a cruel, hurtful joke that upholds the INCREDIBLE amount of discrimination and even violence transsexual people face all the time is to downplay the suffering of huge numbers of people.

Please. Let's change this.

Removed and archiving most recent Fan Dumb entry here.

• Fan Dumb: Some fans interpreted a tongue in cheek Shrug of God from a known Trolling Creator and consider Zoë to be transgender or of a non-binary gender. They argued that the series includes several identified gay characters and said the creator was concealing her gender with deliberately neutral pronouns, although it must be noted that this is what the author uses for most characters. Some of them even debated on the subject when presented with conflicting artwork from the anime. Kodansha, the publisher of the manga though, has officially stated that she is female.
  Q: "I have one question, what is Hanji’s gender? (I think she’s a woman, but every now and then I think she looks “manly.”) I’d be very grateful if you could answer my question. (If you have the time.)"
  A: "After receiving this question I think it’s better if I don’t say either way."

Reason for editing out: Removing Fan Dumb entry as with only one example listed, it seems superfluous with the Broken Base entry (above) listing far more instances of Fan Dumb activity. Also, as stated in discussion by several tropers, it appears rude to the LGBT community to list such interpretation under Fan Dumb.

Also, the mangaka gave us female Eren recently. So yes, genderbending should not be considered as Fan Dumb.

EDIT: Wrong button.

Many fans start to hate him because his Plot Armor and he is the Titan (of the villain group) that has the major screentime.

From what I've seen, many people do hate him, but he still has plenty of fans. While he is a divisive character, he is not hated by the majority of the fandom. And while he has gotten a lot of focus in this arc, so have the rest of villains.

Frustration that a character survived against audience expectations (or wishes) usually fuels these kinds of edits. Reiner's survivals have thought-out and genuine explanations.

Mikasa would be a better example, and even she is shaky at best.

at least is possibly list him as Scrappy?

if "he is not hated by the majority of the fandom", as Viira mentioned, no.

Gabi Braun is a pretty legit example of a Creator's Pet, why isn't she listed?

For the treatment of Gabi, yes. Fourth Wall Myopia is applicable because the audience knows that the people of Paradis are good due to spending the first 80 chapters with them. Gabi didn't know that they're good and had no way of thinking otherwise due to how she was raised.

I went ahead and removed all spoilers that we've seen happen in the anime. Kept the manga spoilers.

The only one I believe fits is Floch.

Gabi is a child soldier and while she has committed war crimes in her appearances, her actions aren't exactly unwarranted. While committing War Crimes themselves are a serious issue, Gabi herself is doing what she was raised to do, and her attacking and killing Sasha is technically justified in that the Survey Corps were pretty much Terrorists at that point and she was trying to stop them. She was also firing into the group indiscriminately, so it hitting Sasha was pure coincidence from a realistic standpoint, a case of Irony from a narrative standpoint. Even the war crimes argument doesn't work, as Eren's attack is also considered a War Crime since he targeted an area filled with civilians and did so by disguising himself as a civilian there, and Gabi's existence in itself is one as Child Soldiers is considered another war crime. Reiner, Annie, and Bertholdt technically committed the same war crime at the start of the series. War crimes are plentiful in this series, so pointing out a single one as a moral event horizon would mean every character would have to be scrutinized for the mere chance they committed one, and if they did, would in turn be added to the MEH.

While Eren did kill civilians in his rampage, which is deplorable, the fact of the matter is that he acknowledges it was messed up, meaning if anything it was an issue of Necessary Evil, and that he did not do it simply to be "evil" but did it out of the fact that this is war, and in war civilians can and will die. Reiner did something similar at the start of the series, and while he was a child whereas Eren is an adult now, it's merely a case of war not discriminating between soldiers and civilians.

I'd say keep Floch, but I think we should wait until the next chapter to see if he acts on his words.

Late chiming in, but I agree that Floch is probably the one that should stick around for now. He seems to be inching into Sociopathic Soldier territory, with trying to burn civilians alive, talking about committing genocide, and cheering about the "new Eldian empire". He seems to be a character we're supposed to hate, voicing all the ugly things to make the rest of the cast go, "Whoa, that ain't right."

In comparison, Gabi and Eren occupy that morally-complicated area that the series loves. Their actions are both wrong, and involve either a Necessary Evil or good intentions fueled by having the wrong information. (They are also, it's important to note, very intentional foils to each other.)

I agree with you all about Eren and Gabi's case, however I'm still unconvinced Floch is an example: According to a mod, Moral Event Horizon is reserved for villainous characters whose actions push them beyond redemption; For all we know, Floch, can't be considered a villain yet, we only know him as the sole survivor of Erwin's suicidal charge and other than chewing Eren and Mikasa for choosing to save Armin over Erwin (and being also a Commander Contrarian), there's not much characterization from him at this point. You could also make the argument that Floch's actions aren't unwarranted, as he is being encouraged by Eren's rampage to enact revenge for the thousands of deaths caused by Marley's infiltrators. His actions are wrong, but far from pushing into the "vile" territory.

I'd say to wait until we see more from Floch to determine if he truly is a villainous character as JRads seems to suggest.

Fan shoehorning. Zap it.

Wait- are you saying that Mikasa doesn't belong in ACI because there's not enough people who think that she's obsessed with Eren? Because I've seen many things that show otherwise...

No, I never said that. I was saying that the examples didn't belong in ACI because they seemed to concern how well-received the characters were to the fandom, rather than the varying interpretations of them.

They are all Zero Context Examples anyhow. That entry can stay gone.

• Should I add Fan Dumb and Critical Research Failure since nearly every article about him makes it clear he has never fought in Korea, but the early 20th century Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars instead? I've also read the article about Isayama receiving a thousand death threats, as well as the comments section (some of them even thought the general was a WWII war criminal!).

I'm not coming to the defense of said source of inspiration for this fictional character, but I thought to myself when I re-read those particular entries in the YMMV section after doing some bit of research on the general: Whoever wrote this needs to get their facts straight.

I'm relatively new to this site, so I'm not sure if I'm about to revive a flame war or something similar.

For the record, using "If you have a good knowledge of East Asian politics then you'll get the picture." is what prompted me to set this straight. Viewers Are Geniuses?