Discussion YMMV / AdventureTime

I'm whopping if this show has this trope https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SimilarlyNamedWorks The reason, Well the show's title was also used for two shows. the former that aired in 1958-1979 in the US on WTAE-TV 4 in Pittsburgh, While the latter aired in Canada for ten episodes on CBC in 1967

I’m not sure about Franchise Original Sin. She was always called boring and evil by one side of fandom, and complex and interesting by another. And she wasn’t a sociopath, she has a lot of issues and doubt.

it looks like Alternative Character Interpretation is long enough for its own page.

Unfortunate Implications entries need citations, and this one hasn't:

• Unfortunate Implications:
  • The fact that apparently there is no taboo against incest in the Lemon Earldom. The promo art for "Too Old" shows two lemon brothers making out with each other. This creepily helps to justify the gay subtext between the two Lemongrabs as more plausible.
  • Lemongrab's entire story arc in regards to Princess Bubblegum and his children becomes this when one realizes that Princess Bubblegum physically and emotionally abused Lemongrab, who later went on to physically torture and berate his own children. This ties into the (sometimes true but still misleading) stereotype that people who were abused in their childhoods always grow up to be abusers to their own children. It's especially jarring because "All Your Fault" seemed to subvert this stereotype by portraying both Lemongrabs as loving, doting parents.
  • Jesse Moynihan, a writer on the show, stated that he used a real-life autistic person, Stephen Wiltshire, as partial inspiration when writing the character Lemongrab, who comes across as Ambiguously Autistic and is incredibly mean-tempered and the butt of many jokes.
  • While the show is fairly groundbreaking in its frank and often realistic and often very sympathetic portrayal of people who are mentally ill, it is a fact that most of their mentally ill characters either exist to be scary, comic relief, or both. Ice King's insanity is often played for laughs, Lemongrab's autism and other issues paint him as a frightening villain or a laughable idiot, Princess Cookie was extremely violent and was taken to a mental hospital, and the Royal Tart Toter existed just to be a non-sequitor.
    • Well... Princess Cookie was taken to the mental hospital for trying to commit suicide. Beforehand, Princess Bubblegum was going to throw PC in the dungeon but changed her mind (probably after Jake explained the situation).
    • The Lemongrab situation was also addressed in "All Your Fault" when Jake brings up that Lemonjon was only the way he was because his heart was messed up, and that they should try fixing the Lemongrabs' hearts the same way, PB responds that their hearts are fine and that they're just "like that," implying that the implied autism isn't to blame for them being assholes.
  • Lemongrab mauling his twin to the point of deformity and abusing him afterwards is rife with this.
  • Lemonhope is the only lemon child that has a more "normal" looking appearance (i.e. he's more human-looking, even compared to the Lemongrabs themselves). He has a knack for music (with the harp anyway) and is shown to be gifted enough that Princess Bubblegum immediately wants to take him to the Candy Kingdom to enroll him in a school for gifted children. When the other lemon children are freed from their shock collars, instead of trying to escape with Finn, PB, and Lemonhope, they help the group escape with the prodigy lemon child so that he may return and save their kingdom, while the lemon children themselves all stay behind, with their now very angry lemon father. Not only does this give Lemonhope some serious early Purity Sue/Marty Stu vibes, but reeks of unfortunate implications because Bubblegum chose (well-meaning or not) the only "normal" child that was special enough to leave a horrible place that all the children were abused at.

I was wondering if we could put these 2 things down:

• Alternative Character Interpretation: In "Finn the Human/Jake the Dog", were Simon's remains somehow really talking to Marceline, or was she just crazy?
• Anti-Climax Boss: For such a big, dangerous, and downright terrifying villain, the Lich tends to be defeated relatively quickly and easily.

This line in Abandon Shipping needs to be moved to Ship Sinking. Abandon Shipping is a fandom term that will involved shipped pairings that aren't ever hinted at in canon, while Ship Sinking is a YMMV in-universe example of a teased pairing being sunk.

The Finn/Flame Princess ship was sunk in "Frost and Fire" when Finn manipulated Flame Princess into fighting the Ice King, causing her to break up with him, though there was some reignited hope for them in Earth and Water with the two continuing to be on good terms, only to be completely dashed in The Red Throne by Cinnamon Bun of all people, admitting his feelings for Flame Princess.

Ship Sinking should also get a line added about yet another revival of Finn/Bubblegum in "Breezy" with Finn imagining Bubblegum while the lines "Who calls to my heart", and "My hero arise, let love be your guide" are sung in the background.

So since I can't seem to use the thread for requesting to unlock pages to, well, do that, I'll resort to putting my suggestion here anyway: Can we please add mention to the Unfortunate Implications entry of how uncomfortably ableist Princess Bubblegum's decision (namely her reasoning behind it) regarding what to do with Lemongrab at the end of Lemonhope Part 2 was, and similarly how problematic arguments defending her choice tend to be?

Can you please unlock the editing option? I found a trope in the recap episode page "Lemonhope Part 2" that needs to be moved to the YMMV page:

• Epileptic Trees: It's extremely likely that Phlannel Boxingday is actually Princess Bubblegum in disguise: both are pink; have an identical face apart from the mustache; have the same initials and same number of letters and syllables in their first and last name, Boxingday's last lines include Gratuitous German ("In deinem Kopf."), references to being unable to interfere in Castle Lemongrab's policy due to treaties and Techno Babble. The only other possible explanation is that Boxingday is a "sibling" that came from the same pile of goo where she came from.

May I ask why the page was locked?

I believe we should just list Somvilay Xayaphone as a Scapegoat Creator mainly because the fanbase likes to blame the Finn/Flame Princess breakup and Finn's Character Derailment on him.

I don't like Lemongrab's entry on The Scrappy. As far as I've seen several people felt genuinely sorry for him and the vast majority found him hilarious before Too Old. Can we edit the entry to clarify that it only applies to him after the episode Too Old (or maybe Another Five Short Graybles)?

I would like to address the backlash to Xayaphone in the YMMV in some way. I added him to the "Scrappy" section, but it was rejected. So, I want to know if there's another way to address this.

I removed this because the trope says "the Moral Event Horizon refers to the first evil deed to prove a particular character to be irredeemably evil. Note the word irredeemably. It is a demonstration of permanent evil; as in, the first evil deed whose role in the story is to tell us they will always be evil. That moment where you know for sure that it is simply not in their character to do something genuinely good and unselfish." Whether you think it was good enough or not, she still is treated by the characters at least to be less bloodthirsty at the end. If she was "permanent evil", she would have slaughtered Rattleballs too. Plus this was decided in Ask The Tropers to be a sign of the trope's Trope Decay.

Off the top of my head, "I'm Just Your Problem" kickstarted her and Marcy acting better towards each other, Lemongrab yelling at her constantly got her back to "18" and trying to look after him better, Rattleballs got her less bloodthirsty than in her younger days, people were mad at her in the second game and she apologized, the yelling in Burning Low was completely unwarranted, and neither Flame Princess or Tree Trunks trust her.

I just added these back to the page, but it would help if all of these Unfortunate Implications examples get some sort of reference that shows that each concern isn't limited to a single editor/fan. With a show with as big of a fandom as this, it's fairly easy for someone to put in an entry right after an episode has aired before an adequate consensus can be reached.

For the record, the necessity for UI entries to require citations is primarily for the UI page itself, not to other YMMV pages, as was discussed in the TRS thread and in the discussion page for Unfortunate Implications. That said, it should be expected that eventually other YMMV pages will require the same rule, so preemptive measures should be taken.

• Jesse Moynihan, a writer on the show, saying that he used a real-life autistic person, Stephen Wiltshire, as partial inspiration when writing the character Lemongrab, who comes across as Ambiguously Autistic and also very evil and the butt of many jokes.
• While the show is fairly groundbreaking in its frank and often realistic and often very sympathetic portrayal of people who are mentally ill, it is a fact that most of their mentally ill characters either exist to be scary, comic relief, or both. Ice King's insanity is often played for laughs, Lemongrab's autism and other issues paint him as a frightening villain or a laughable idiot, Princess Cookie was extremely violent and was taken to a mental hospital, and the Royal Tart Toter existed just to be a non-sequitor.
  • Well... Princess Cookie was taken to the mental hospital for trying to commit suicide. Beforehand, Princess Bubblegum was going to throw PC in the dungeon but changed her mind (probably after Jake explained the situation).
  • The Lemongrab situation was also addressed in "All Your Fault" when Jake brings up that Lemonjon was only the way he was because his heart was messed up, and that they should try fixing the Lemongrabs' hearts the same way, PB responds that their hearts are fine and that they're just "like that," implying that the implied Autism isn't to blame for them being assholes.
• Lemongrab mauling his twin to the point of deformity and abusing him afterwards is rife with this.
• Lemonhope is the only lemon child that has a more "normal" looking appearance (i.e. he's more human-looking, even compared to the Lemongrabs themselves). He has a knack for music (with the harp anyway) and is said to be gifted enough that Princess Bubblegum immediately wants to take him to the Candy Kingdom to enroll him in a school for gifted children. When the other lemon children are freed from their shock collars, instead of trying to escape with Finn, PB, and Lemonhope, they help the group escape with the prodigy lemon child so that he may return and save their kingdom, while the lemon children themselves all stay behind, with their now very angry lemon father. Not only does this give Lemonhope some serious early Purity Sue/Marty Stu vibes, but reeks of unfortunate implications because Bubblegum chose (good-intentioned or not) the only "normal" child that was special enough to leave a horrible place that all the children were abused at.

Deleted the Complete Monster entry for Lemongrab as it violates our Cleanup Thread rules.

Should we remove the Lemongrab entries? They're incredibly creepy.

YMMV/Adventure Time is nothing but a constant Edit War over whether or not Princess Bubblegum and Lemongrab are scrappies. There should probably be something done about that.

Am I the only one who reads the Lemongrab entries and expects the writer to start screaming "ABLEIST SCUM!"?

All The Little People is not a Take That! towards shipping. It's a tale about a boy going through puberty, getting urges he doesn't understand and learning that it's not a good idea to manipulate people.

The Lemongrab guy is back.

We might need to start making folders for the page as its getting very long.

Why was the Fight King taken off of the Complete Monster list? How does he not qualify? Until then, I re-added him.

I made Adventure Time its own Ho Yay page since the examples on this page and the main ho yay page were getting long and only going to get longer. I moved everything from this page and the main ho yay page to the New page with only minor tweeks for redundancy.

tropemunch is back.

A lot of entries about Lemongrab are downright disturbing. HE'S NOT REAL.

I dont think the Marceline/Bubblgum and Lemongrab/Lemongrab pairings actually count as Crack. I mean both pairs have ship teasing if YMMV on what kind of relationship is teased

Can we get some limiting on the Lemongrab content. It's getting ridiculously long and obsessive on this one character.

So...should their be character entries for the Rule63 characters now that they will be in an episode? I know its (so far) just one episode, but so was the Lich other than his Early-Bird Cameo in His Hero.