Discussion Webcomic / Homestuck

FanWorks/ pages are for works that have TV Tropes pages. I'd just list it on the main page.

Yeah, getting rid of the bullet points on some of the tropes (Fridge Horror, Shout Out, Stealth Pun, etc.) make those sections look really ugly. Thought the point of bullets were to separate different topics on each.

I agree. Bullet points are easier to read than gigantic blocks of text.

I just went back and re-bulleted the Shout-Out section.

Adjusted a few more bullets; Fridge Horror, Improbably Weapon User, Kitsch Collection, Nice Job Fixing It Villain, Oh Crap, Running Gag, Stable Time Loop, Stealth Pun.

Speaking of Running Gags, shouldn't they have their own su8page?

Three months late, but yeah, there should be some sub-page for all the Call Backs throughout Homestuck. I started one for Continuity Nod, but I'm not sure it's the best fit + it's a little vague when something stops being just a Nod.

Well, if you want to take on the task of attempting to recap this Timey-Wimey Ball of a plotline, you are welcome to it! You don't need "permission" or approval to launch those sorts of pages.

A recap page would be awesome, you could give all of the acts their own pages and everything. It would serve as a really helpful resource to first-time readers too. Although with just how long Homestuck is I feel like we'd need a few people helping. Is anyone up for this?

I am. Well, I would be, but I just realized this was made a year ago.

I am. Well, I would be, but I just realized this was made a year ago.

Greetings,

might want to report such issues in Ask The Tropers.

Why is it a missed moment of awesome? Because there was a fight that didn't happen? I don't really see that as being a missed moment of awesome since Andrew has been doing that a lot. Still always best to hold off on update judging until we see how it ends. For all we know, Karkat stabbed Gamzee between the ribs during their hug.

It's not a Missed Moment Of Awesome because a Missed Moment Of Awesome is not something awesome that didn't happen, it's something awesome that we didn't get to see.

Hence "missed". Because we missed it.

So, yeah. There weren't any of those.

It was renamed Offscreen Moment of Awesome.

Nooo, now there's no alliteration

why am i replying to this 4 years after this was made

And that was probably one or two yet's too many.

That's partially because Homestuck hasn't done anything new per se, more of the story derives from subversions and deconstructions of common literary trends. And don't count it out, I'm sure there's something that'll happen.

If you count alternate page names, there's Joke-Doing Creator, but...

Sweet Bro And Hella Jeff is just begging for it. There shall be a day when The Big Man Hass The Rock does not Red Link.

Maybe we could use The Coart Is On FIRE for depictions where sports are happening so hard it's ignites things.

Or we can use that to refer to sports as Serious Business/What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? in general.

Either/or; What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? could really use a sub-trope for sports. Anyone wanna launch it?

Well Homestuck has more than once caused some WMG's to be both Jossed and confirmed at the same time, and there was the fora's "gorrila suit at a basketball game" but in reverse reaction to the update with Aradia's ancestor.

It's not that Homestuck hasn't done anything new it's just, how the hell do we qualify some of these things?

Also theres the fact that SBAHJ is basically a completely seperate webcomic that only exists to foreshadow events that will happen in Homestuck. I don't know what that qualifies as but it should qualify for something.

How about "He's Already Here" for moments in a story that we are expecting a big villain to be revealed but instead the villain is a character we already know. Spoiler-ish examples below: Lord English is really... well that one is complicated. Voltarius from TV Tome Adventures is really Zetto. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow with the lord of shadow, and the eventual dracula. ... I suck at examples.

that is actually a really good idea

God that's awful that she lost her work

But of course it would happen with English's arrival huh...

You have now successfully changed Homestuck from an amazing Webcomic to the most terrifying ARG experience since BEN DROWNED. Oh crap I hear honking!

if her computer glitched, why didn't it just delete lord english?

ok, that was kind of dumb.

That is actually a very good idea, but we should probably use canonical character art. Just to show proportions of the characters, however, if we do art ourselves, we should put it somewhere in one of the fanfic pages. Unless you happen to be part of the art team...

'cause it's not?

Its closer to its end then to the beggining.

I'm jogging my mind trying to think if there exists of a more representative visual artwork, but I am hard pressed to find one more suited to the job. Although the nature of Homestuck within web media would imply such a thing would exist, the story has become so abstracted and widespread that no single image can do it justice. I understand your reasoning, yet at this time I think it's best if we leave a more nebulous image in one's mind, lest we skew your perceptions of the work in any particular way.

Confusing me by being vague does skew my perception of the work XD

This isn't a perfect example because it doesn't do much to capture the humor of the comic, but the video used on the Kickstarter page does a good job of showing the more dramatic moments without spoiling anything. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/14293468/homestuck-adventure-game

Homestuck may constitute above and beyond the actual webcomic genre (meriting a Main space) with the release of the Gaiden Game, however, as that doesn't come out until 2014, we'll be able to see if that's warranted or not long in advance.

Action Comics still belongs in the comics genre, even though there are Superman movies, video games, etc. This belongs in Web Comic and that should never change.

^^ That would be a Franchise namespace, not Main/. No works should be in main.

Same here, I'm guessing the server is in one of the areas still in a blackout damage caused by Sandy.

so why haven't you done it yet?

I don't want to exactly move/delete information without asking for the opinions of those who made it in the first place or else edit warring would ensue. I'll take care of it myself after another day so other people may know.

I agree. There's not enough information to merit a subpage. Perhaps list it as a subsection of a centralized hub Fan page; we can redirect fan music and fan fiction to that and then subpage it off.

Done that, also put in Timeline as well as it's a fan project.

Sounds fine to me. The main pages are actually kind of a huge mess compared to everything else, which is why I actually heavily avoid them, even though I've cleaned up WMG pages, Headscratchers, and character sheets, I dare not touch the main page. There's no real procedure you need to worry about. If someone else watching the page gets upset they'll probably just PM you. If you're even still doing the project that is; this is a really delayed reply. If you're not though, I may get around to it sometime in May when I'm out of school and figuring out what to do for 3 months.

I plan on taking the project back up now, if anyone is interested.

For now I am starting small and monitoring the character pages. But I want to get speculation out of the main page when I have a chance.

It has not been updated in a while, which is helpful.

I'd be happy to help in whatever ways I can! I feel we could condense the Homestuck pages and reduce the splintering of the articles as they have grown. From a nonsubjective viewpoint the main page looks cluttered, verbose(it is no longer in moderation or in taste), and hard to navigate. Although I appreciate the spirit of the organization, it's simply a joke that we've run with and overtaken to the point of impracticality.

I'm gonna trim down the main pages now. The joke about lands is yeah, old. I'll tackle small sections and may well forget, but I'll try to note in each edit how far I got through and I'll post here with status every now and again. Edit 1: A-C done. Will try to tackle the bulk of it tomorrow. I've decided this will be my last major project for the HS pages around here, so I'm gonna do this one right. Edit 2: D-F done. Got sidetracked today with creating a consolidated fan hub and a unified reactions page for Wham Episode, Wham Line, etc. Just some small things that nonetheless took a bit of time to figure out. Edit 3: It's done, with a little help from Sonic Lover.

No, it's fine. Don't forget the "sacred urns toppled, etc." bit.

Just as I put it at the end. It's better considering we don't want the page getting dragged down to the bottom.

I don't think it needs that bit, really.

Seeing as the third anniversery passed just recently, why not update this bit of the page? I always really liked it.

Because that would be a lot of counting that nobody wants to do. Hussie did the counting in the first place; if he offers the stats I'll gladly put them there, but until then I'm not wasting my time counting panels and timing flashes.

No, when he uses his timetables, all of him goes back in time, but his gear doesn't reverse, so it would stay at 1/2 bladekind.

He's still under the limitations of the 1/2bladekind abstratus, meaning his weapon still has to be broken in some sense of the word— that, and we don't yet know the mechanics behind the blade's apparent "reparation".

Plus, he still kicks a lot of ass with it while it's in its half-form.

Remember how John's Hammerkind Abstratus got broken when it lost its head, and then was repaired when he fixed it? I'm guessing his sword just an expandable two-segment sword - and that the rules of the world count it as "breaking" when it collapses and "fixing" when it expands.

Yeah, I'm quite sure that Dave's time travel reverts it to bladekind.

Common theory states that Caldescratch was created by Future Dave alchemizing a broken sword with the time tables. He turns a dial on the handle to revert the sword back in time to an unbroken state.

There's also the Snoop Dog's Snow Cone Machete, which, from what I can tell, is in an unbroken state. He also examined the Scarlet Ribbitar in both broken and unbroken states. Possibly this means that, similar to Equius being able to use both Bowkind and 1/2Bowkind, Dave is using Bladekind and 1/2 Bladekind?

Is it possible that Davesprite also dropped the specibus card for Bladekind? Future Dave was using 1/2, but had moments where he restored or extended the other half of the blade.

I think the abstractus automatically changes whenever the blade does.

I think since it can cycle through its entire life as a sword, it can function as a blade, but still fit in the 1/2 bladekind.

Doublecross has the right answer: Dave mentions at one point he can cycle through the sword's life span from when it's new and sharp to when it's old and rusty. He simply cycles before and after the break for having a "full" sword that nonetheless is broken as soon as he reverts the time magic on it. Sort of a workaround within the strife specibus.

Either in Webcomic or Web Original. It doesn't really matter which.

Since made irrelevant.

Square Peg Round Trope; and it's already listed as a lampshading of Eye Glasses. It wasn't a serious thing, but a joke.

Given that it's been a few months, I'm gonna go ahead and just delete them here in the next few days. I'll keep text files of them and maybe make a pastebin or googledoc if anyone thinks they need to be preserved. As it stands they're just a bunch of old theories, and like in all things, we toss out blatantly wrong old ideas.

This says not to delete theories just because they're Jossed.

Nobody can excuse me for being patient for 3 months with no reply.

At any rate, do you have an idea then? Because we have so many Jossed theories that we'd probably need to make anywhere from 3-10 pages just to hold them all without breaking browsers and the site, but that seems like a less than ideal solution. This isn't just limited to the ones on the Jossed page; Jossed (and confirmed to a lesser extent) theories are cluttering up every other page.

Mm, not really. I'm going to try and trim some of it down though, cleanup on natter and repetition, etc. And I'll try and gather the Lord English identity theories together.

Also — I don't know how helpful this'd be, but — could we delete the "Jossed" after every entry? It is the Jossed page, after all.

Gimme a couple days and I should have the Jossed pages in order. The Jossed thing is only on new WMG s, and I plan on removing them from cluttering every page, so I can easily get rid of that. It's a lot of work though and for little thanks so I'll probably be less than prompt with it.

Any theory that is outright incomprehensible or a repeat though is getting straight up deleted.

E: Someone may need to go through the Jossed theories and pick through to find what's actually confirmed and what was tossed out prematurely. I may get around to it (as there are far less than I remember there being), but certainly not until things are orderly on the main pages.

WMG goes to WMG man, sorry. Sounds like a theory but there's not room for speculating here.

When we get some tropes for her brother, I plan on making an "Alpha Trolls" subsection.

I second this motion

Make it so.

Go for it! But might I make another suggestion? How about a screenshot of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95kgMvE6-co @ 0:35 that is if we are considering fandom and not just the original work

Seems to have worked out pretty 0kay

Renamed Act 6 to Alpha Session though; because eventually there'll be a whole host of characters so it works better this way. If there end up being so many characters that we need to split it; we'll just move them to a real number instead of 11.11.11

Might've been made as an option for the timeline page or simply was created as someone starting to do a project analyzing how Homestuck works and uses tropes (which would be fascinating in and of itself were it not for being insanely hard) but was abandoned. Given that it's not linked to on the main page, I'm inclined to believe it's one of these two or something along similar lines.

Hmm that actually would not be a bad option on where to place that timeline

Avoids keeping the timeline namespace yeah.

But where would I put it?

First: Exploding Frogs would be glad to hear that (although I'm not since I'm against the page atm haha), and second, nowhere because unfortunately alignments are complete YMMV

For instance, I completely disagree with most of that. John is much closer to Neutral Good and Karkat is Chaotic Good; Doc's probably the closest to Neutral Evil in comic. And so on.

Fun picture yeah but it doesn't really have a place here unfortunately. Deathsbuddy a bit farther down in the thread describes it best really: "The alignment system is overly limiting and assumes shallow, two-dimensional characters" which the characters of Homestuck really aren't.

EDIT: Whoops you meant the chart later down. Still YMMV though, and doesn't take into account character development, such as Eridan or Doc becoming worse, or John becoming better.

I think we should wait until Homestuck's done before going back, analyzing, and cataloging all the "Wham!" moments. That way we can look at all the moments and think, "Which moments were actually shocking and crucial to the plot, and which ones in retrospect weren't as important?"

Makes sense. That's basically what I did for the previous acts and most of Act 5-2

For now keep up the link, save all the moments into some text file for safe keeping and replace the wham page with the following phrase, "All of it, just all of it." Problem solved.

and made a fanmusic page. Probably needs to be reworked but the rough draft is up My fingers hurt.

Thanks to those of you who helped make the fanmusic page work; I really appreciate that. Someone more familiar than I with how Fanfic pages are run may want to go in and get some sort of a similar system set up? I'm not certain how to even begin that honestly.

What the heck is fanmusic doing on the Fanfic Recs page? I can sort of see the logic, but that's just silly.

Because it's not an official album and unlike Radiation's baby album this is going to be a recurring thing. We could just make a fan music page, but putting it with Fanfic was always a temporary measure.

I think it was lost because we moved the main page from Main.Homestuck to Webcomic.Homestuck.

I'm quite late to the party, but:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.Homestuck

Enjoy.

It might not be that bad an idea.

It's just so damn inconsistent. And what one person considers a spoiler is something another might not. Simpler to just not have to have a headache saying "Every new plot development gets spoilertagged for X days" or something. There's no real need for them is the thing.

It's a bit early I guess but I'm going ahead with it. Nobody's raised any objections thus far so I'm proceeding under the assumption that there are none. If someone goes ahead and reverts them without putting a justification here, I am gonna be annoyed :

I would think it should only be necessary to set a policy for what the "spoiler barrier" is - probably between the start of Act 5 Act 2 and when the trolls start dropping, if not before Bec's prototyping.

Admittedly, the way the story unfolds makes it difficult and possibly justifies the inconsistency - people have probably just been spoilering anything that's been portrayed as a twist (like Noir killing the Black Queen), while spoilering the names of the trolls and everything about their ancestors, not to mention the very existence of Doc Scratch, would be impractical. Considering the twist at the end of the Midnight Crew intermission, it's arguable that there's a separate spoiler point for every act save 1 and possibly 2 and 3, with the exception of things you need to know to understand subsequent un-spoilered developments.

I'm not raising a vehement objection to de-spoilering everything, but I do think "inconsistency" is a rather weak justification for it, and at the very least edit the text you de-spoiler to make it less awkward. (I'm thinking especially of the description of the ancestors.) I think spoiler tags aren't just to avoid spoilering people who haven't read the comic, but to provide a sense of "before" and "after", and arguably, nowhere is that idea more appropriate than with Homestuck.

Oh, and the old discussion page is still there. Just change "Webcomic" in the URL above with "Main".

I would think it should only be necessary to set a policy for what the "spoiler barrier" is - probably between the start of Act 5 Act 2 and when the trolls start dropping, if not before Bec's prototyping.

Admittedly, the way the story unfolds makes it difficult and possibly justifies the inconsistency - people have probably just been spoilering anything that's been portrayed as a twist (like Noir killing the Black Queen), while spoilering the names of the trolls and everything about their ancestors, not to mention the very existence of Doc Scratch, would be impractical. Considering the twist at the end of the Midnight Crew intermission, it's arguable that there's a separate spoiler point for every act save 1 and possibly 2 and 3, with the exception of things you need to know to understand subsequent un-spoilered developments.

I'm not raising a vehement objection to de-spoilering everything, but I do think "inconsistency" is a rather weak justification for it, and at the very least edit the text you de-spoiler to make it less awkward. (I'm thinking especially of the description of the ancestors.) I think spoiler tags aren't just to avoid spoilering people who haven't read the comic, but to provide a sense of "before" and "after", and arguably, nowhere is that idea more appropriate than with Homestuck.

Oh, and the old discussion page is still there. Just change "Webcomic" in the URL above with "Main".

Perhaps, but again delineating between before and after is hard with Homestuck, when effect can come before the cause as with the Scratch. Besides as of late it may be Before, after, after the after, and after the after the after etc which elongates the spoilers. For instance Gamzee goes insane. But then every plot point after that involving him also has to be spoilered. You see what I mean? The CMOA and related pages were like this. The first few point and some thereafter were unspoiled but around the start of Act 5 most everything is spoiled completely and that's also the bulk of the page.

The text is incredibly awkward I'll agree, but picking out the spoilers is tedious work and it gives me headaches, so I'm sorry that everything's not great. It's easy enough to fix. And once again the main justification is really "why even have them" when we pretty much assume everyone to be caught up before reading the pages (and tell them to do so). There is a justification perhaps in that critical spoilers from early acts should be hidden, but the problem is that they become built into the next act and taken for granted. The fact that Homestuck is about the apocalypse is something virtually nobody would consider a major spoiler, yet it's the key spoiler in Act 1. The same applies for the existence of the Trolls, where John exactly is during Act 2, and so on. It's simpler to write the text out and explain the progression of the story than to apply spoilers the way we were doing. Relying on spoilers to help tell the events of the story is something that ultimately doesn't work as we proceed through a sheer tidal wave of spoilerable material

The most concise message I can think of is one of the edit tips, where a most spoilered out example doesn't serve very well as an example. A mostly spoilered out page doesn't serve very well as a page.

Does the spoiler removal apply for moments of funny/high octane nightmare fuel/etc?

Can't see why not.

Basically the only thing I can see spoilers making sense for would be some of the punny names which were spoiler tagged, like on Terezi's page. Those two pages mentioned above were ones I accidentally missed when editing oops.

The WMG pages probably should have them removed, but then again the WMG pages need a complete overhaul and I'm not really up to that any time in the near future.

My quick thinking is that there might be different spoiler points for each act, given how much Hussie shakes things up at the end of each act then maintains a stable status quo for a while without necessarily revisiting the EOA developments right away, or for each group of the cast. I definitely agree that if we strictly tried to hide every twist, the entire page would become filled with spoilers, including the very existence of some character groups; it'd be absurd to hide the fact that there's a meteor about to strike the earth late in Act 1. That doesn't mean, though, that there isn't a meaningful distinction between past and future. Despite being a big reason for the comic's popularity, the trolls would be a pretty big spoiler for a reader knowing nothing about Homestuck. That they start dying, however, is still something worth hiding for someone going in knowing about their existence.

Most twists should probably be spoilered unless they're too fundamental to subsequent events, so I'll use the Wham Episode page as my main guide. (That page needs a major cleanup. I'm having trouble believing some of those things in Act 5-2 were that shocking, and there's a considerable amount of nested bullets.) On the other hand, anything that could have conceivably happened in an unspoilered position can probably be unspoilered, like Gamzee and Tavros' jam in Scratch's interval.

• Acts 1, 2, and 3 can probably go without spoilers, though I'm debating with myself about the Act 2 EOA.
• Anything that relates the Midnight Crew intermission to the rest of the plot could be spoilered.
• Act 4 is where things start getting interesting. In general, I would put the tipping point at John's ectobiology shenanigans. However as far as the Exiles are concerned, I would put the tipping point where we start getting flashbacks to their time in the Medium.
• As Act 5-1 is completely different, it makes a good example for having different tipping points in each act. I'd put that around Make Her Pay.
• I'm thinking that for most purposes, the best place to put the tipping point for Act 5-2 is probably [S] Jade: Enter.
• That leaves some problematic character groups. Most deaths should probably be spoilered unless they happen/are revealed too early or are too integral; Aradia's death might be spoilerable, Grandpa's probably not (we aren't misdirected about that for long enough). The ancestors are probably still at the point where their very existence is spoileriffic, so I would provide a fairly general description on the character page and hide everything else behind a folder. If we decided against that, there are potential tipping points a) before the journal entry at the end of Disc 1 and b) unspoilering journal entries and spoilering Scratch's story.

Near as I can tell, all the WMG pages really need is resorting and getting Unsorted to the point where it can be cut-listed (assuming I'm correctly interpreting its intent). Part of the problem, though, is that given the author's penchant for misdirection, the proliferation of alt-timelines, and the general nature of time, not to mention the sheer amount of material in the story theory-makers need to remember and info in two separate formspring accounts, it can be very difficult to determine with certainty when a theory is confirmed or jossed.

My quick thinking is that there might be different spoiler points for each act, given how much Hussie shakes things up at the end of each act then maintains a stable status quo for a while without necessarily revisiting the EOA developments right away, or for each group of the cast. I definitely agree that if we strictly tried to hide every twist, the entire page would become filled with spoilers, including the very existence of some character groups; it'd be absurd to hide the fact that there's a meteor about to strike the earth late in Act 1. That doesn't mean, though, that there isn't a meaningful distinction between past and future. Despite being a big reason for the comic's popularity, the trolls would be a pretty big spoiler for a reader knowing nothing about Homestuck. That they start dying, however, is still something worth hiding for someone going in knowing about their existence.

Most twists should probably be spoilered unless they're too fundamental to subsequent events, so I'll use the Wham Episode page as my main guide. (That page needs a major cleanup. I'm having trouble believing some of those things in Act 5-2 were that shocking, and there's a considerable amount of nested bullets.) On the other hand, anything that could have conceivably happened in an unspoilered position can probably be unspoilered, like Gamzee and Tavros' jam in Scratch's interval.

• Acts 1, 2, and 3 can probably go without spoilers, though I'm debating with myself about the Act 2 EOA.
• Anything that relates the Midnight Crew intermission to the rest of the plot could be spoilered.
• Act 4 is where things start getting interesting. In general, I would put the tipping point at John's ectobiology shenanigans. However as far as the Exiles are concerned, I would put the tipping point where we start getting flashbacks to their time in the Medium.
• As Act 5-1 is completely different, it makes a good example for having different tipping points in each act. I'd put that around Make Her Pay.
• I'm thinking that for most purposes, the best place to put the tipping point for Act 5-2 is probably [S] Jade: Enter.
• That leaves some problematic character groups. Most deaths should probably be spoilered unless they happen/are revealed too early or are too integral; Aradia's death might be spoilerable, Grandpa's probably not (we aren't misdirected about that for long enough). The ancestors are probably still at the point where their very existence is spoileriffic, so I would provide a fairly general description on the character page and hide everything else behind a folder. If we decided against that, there are potential tipping points a) before the journal entry at the end of Disc 1 and b) unspoilering journal entries and spoilering Scratch's story.

Near as I can tell, all the WMG pages really need is resorting and getting Unsorted to the point where it can be cut-listed (assuming I'm correctly interpreting its intent). Part of the problem, though, is that given the author's penchant for misdirection, the proliferation of alt-timelines, and the general nature of time, not to mention the sheer amount of material in the story theory-makers need to remember and info in two separate formspring accounts, it can be very difficult to determine with certainty when a theory is confirmed or jossed.

There's a lot of stuff there that I agree with so here's my thoughts

• Yes the Wham Episode page really reads like 2 people just had a conversation about the plot developments. Granted there have been quite a few whams but the page needs a serious overhaul
• The WMG pages are pretty sorted as it stands, we just need to get rid of the massive "Unsorted" page. I hesistate to suggest it, but we could just delete some theories that have been proven to be completely false, such as John having a Derse dreamself and reviving via that. A lot of the WM Gs currently are like that.
• Ending of Act 2 as in Rose dodging a burning tree or the exiles revealed to have been on Earth? Because the latter isn't a huge spoiler and EOA 2 also introduced Bro, so...
  • Midnight Crew doesn't really have anything spoiler worthy. Other than the fact that the Felt die and Slick gets maimed, nothing really happens. The Vault showing up at the end is called back during Act 5-1 because the MC are the troll exiles, which is mentioned a lot in Act 4 too.
  • I agree with most of Act 4's stuff, but again so much of the plot in Descend for instance is vital to understanding Act 5-2, which you've suggested be left unspoiled. How do we explain Jade's nightmares without explaining she died?
  • If you spoil past Make Her Pay, there's only 2 plot points in Act 5-1 left really, that the Trolls created our Universe (vital in 5-2) and that Vriska was beaten to death (also vital). Act 5-2's better "tipping point" would be the [o]termission or the Troll murder arc.

The fundamental flaw with your idea (which is very good) is that spoilers in a previous part or act are built into the narrative of the next. The only way we could do the idea you suggest would involve a lot of confusing page tricks and misleading examples, and possibly several types of spoiler within spoiler. For instance, we say John is the Heir of Breath and gets revived into his god tiers is a spoiler. But that means every act of him using his powers afterwards is also a spoiler. And it just keeps piling up with others. The problem with using spoilers with Homestuck is that you're trying to apply standard webcomic spoiler policy; spoil the end of the arc. But Homestuck is more akin to a novel. Besides our ideas of spoilers must differ some, I at least considered Jade getting the beta spoiler worthy, as is that she lives on the island with the Frog temple.

I'm not trying to sound rude or harsh like "ALL SPOILERS MUST GTFO" but I simply can't see a way we apply spoilers to pages without them quickly becoming a mess like they were again. Maybe after it's completion, we can make a list of major plot developments and spoil then, but until that point too much is moving too quickly and opinions differ.

Yes. But be sure to clarify you mean the strict definition of the trope, where it's a loving jab, because it tends to get misused a lot.

If you have to begin a query like that with "if and when", it's too early to be contemplating it.

I'm just going based on what we do know at the moment. Given how much Homestuck changes, it could update with the new Kids tomorrow or in October, and it's best to have a plan to deal with that problem before it arises.

I think it's best we shelve the issue until we know a bit more about what we're dealing with.

Yeah, wait until we find out more about how the new kids will be played. Given what we just learned about the trolls' ancestors...

Yeah, wait until we find out more about how the new kids will be played. Given what we just learned about the trolls' ancestors...

Yes probably, and not in the harsh sense but the joking "Oh this is horrible; why do I love it so much" sense. I'd point out that to make all the references, Hussie would have to be pretty familiar with said movies.

And while I'm at it, the now-broken links in case anyone wants to look them up with google cache or something:

Beyond the Impossible: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1093947328

Call-Back: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/898135176 and http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/550425816

Cerebus Syndrome: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1888161636 "relentlessly lighthearted"

Convection, Schmonvection: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1778164158

Creation Myth: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1158290610

Screw the Rules, I Make Them!: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/550300327

Suddenly Voiced: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1419935459

Teasing Creator: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/898254629

Unwinnable by Design: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1888006123

We should at least put quotes from those formsprings under the trope entries.

I have the questions archived in a .txt, but it's only text, so I can't search by URL.

The "relentlessly lighthearted" thing, on the other hand, I can search for:

"Homestuck started out pretty lighthearted! I suppose it would be dumb to ask if you intended for it to get darker later on, but is the level of darkness about what you envisioned? Was Cal originally the only intended survivor at this point in the story?

It's still lighthearted.

It is in fact relentlessly lighthearted, even in the midst of serious drama.

The villain is a FUCKING DOG WEARING SUNGLASSES."

If you ignore the fridge horror, tragedies, deaths, and outright meaning of Jack's existence, then yeah, it's pretty lighthearted.

Considering that that current Vriska is her dream self, I think it is very likely Aradia did kill her.

There's no proof of that in that image. :/

She has her dreamself's glasses and vision eightfold. I suppose it's not strictly necessary for her main self to be dead for the dreamself to be acting as the main self, but I'm not sure why Andrew would put in something like that if he didn't intend it to be read as Vriska getting killed.

I see no adequate reason to suppose that Vriska did not get killed at some point. It's not strictly proven that her death was at the hands of Aradia, but given that the Trolls' story seems to be winding down at this point rather than going back to fill in details, that seems to be the assumption we're expected to make.

Since there's no possible Word of God on this, the Homestuck Wiki says that she's beated near to death, not killed.

Probably fighting over Feferi, but it hasn't yet been said for certain. But there's no ambiguity over the fact that it was a Beam-O-War, so yes.

Probably that, based on the battle over literal blood rank.

I think they were just deleted. I searched the wiki and found nothing.

OK, PSA: Please don't delete huge chunks of the page without warning. It's common courtesy to bring your issues with it into a discussion topic first. If you're moving it to a subpage please make that clear in your edit reason.

And leave an edit reason.

I smell an edit war. Someone get Ninjacrat over here please? Before we start having excessive fighting over what to cut and what not to cut? (Honestly, I stay away from Wikipedia for this very reason.)

Great big screen-obliterating spoiler blocks are bad. Shoehorned tropes are bad. Spoilerblocking the name of the trope you're describing is bad and also dumb.

Basically this page has been a clusterfuck for a while now, and it's my fault for not having a go at it sooner.

Great big screen-obliterating spoiler blocks are bad. Shoehorned tropes are bad. Spoilerblocking the name of the trope you're describing is bad and also dumb.

Basically this page has been a clusterfuck for a while now, and it's my fault for not having a go at it sooner.

Great big screen-obliterating spoiler blocks are bad. Shoehorned tropes are bad. Spoilerblocking the name of the trope you're describing is bad and also dumb.

Basically this page has been a clusterfuck for a while now, and it's my fault for not having a go at it sooner.

Several tropes were spoilerblocked because they're spoilers by merit of their existence and inclusion. I'll cut Anyone Can Die down to major characters (Loads And Loads Of Characters notwithstanding), but there's no point not having it there. It applies, does it not?

@Luzeme My edit reason read, verbatim: "moving stuff to namespace pages, spoilertag purge." Was that not clear enough?

@orngjce223: Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?

@Luzeme My edit reason read, verbatim: "moving stuff to namespace pages, spoilertag purge." Was that not clear enough?

@orngjce223: Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?

@Luzeme My edit reason read, verbatim: "moving stuff to namespace pages, spoilertag purge." Was that not clear enough?

@orngjce223: Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?

No, the closest thing to a main character death was the death of the dream version of the main character in question. Okay, BQ and BK and HB and Col. Sassacre don't need to be on there, but arguably the Bad Future belongs there. As does Dead Paradox Time Travel Dave Before Being Thrown Out The Window.

Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?

Did you even READ the text you deleted? Three of the main characters died in alternate timelines, and Jade's dream self died in the main timeline! If those don't count as main character deaths, then I'm a bottle of scented cologne!

*dabs SonicLover behind the ears*

Anyone Can Die isn't killing characters in alternate universes or killing characters in dreams. Anyone Can Die is killing characters so that they are dead.

You can't have Anyone Can Die if nobody (but a few villains and backstory characters) has died.

Anyone Can Die isn't killing characters in alternate universes or killing characters in dreams. Anyone Can Die is killing characters so that they are dead.

You can't have Anyone Can Die if nobody (but a few villains and backstory characters) has died.

Anyone Can Die isn't killing characters in alternate universes or killing characters in dreams. Anyone Can Die is killing characters so that they are dead.

You can't have Anyone Can Die if nobody (but a few villains and backstory characters) has died.

Yeah there are too many spoiler tags on this page probably. They get put on and don't get removed. That doesn't mean you should delete the text with them.

Also there is nothing on this wiki that says you can't have Fridge Brilliance examples on the work page that I can see. Fridge Brilliance/Webcomics is the trope page split into bits because it got too long. Many times a trope appears on a work page and the work is used as an example on the trope page. This is not wrong.

My main beef is that you didn't bother to come here and discuss purges first. Edit wars are not cool. The discussion page prevents them from happening.

Let's look at what's going on for a second.

There is the "we should have deleted them" camp, which consists of ninjacrat.

There is the "no we shouldn't have/we should have at least discussed it first" camp, which consists of pretty much everybody else that gives a shit.

I think it is fairly reasonable to say, simply due to near-consensus, "god dammit, ninjapadcrat."

I've added them back, with some updates. Nobody delete them again without discussion.

Dude. Creating so much melodrama over two examples from a single solitary page is ridiculous. Creating this much melodrama over two patently shitty examples is beyond ridiculous.

Anyone Can Die is still a complete nonexample — and still has the trope name spoilered out! Fridge Brilliance is still half natter and still belongs on the Fridge Brilliance page, where people can sign their observations. This isn't code for anything; they're just not good.

Dude. Creating so much melodrama over two examples from a single solitary page is ridiculous. Creating this much melodrama over two patently shitty examples is beyond ridiculous.

Anyone Can Die is still a complete nonexample — and still has the trope name spoilered out! Fridge Brilliance is still half natter and still belongs on the Fridge Brilliance page, where people can sign their observations. This isn't code for anything; they're just not good.

Dude. Creating so much melodrama over two examples from a single solitary page is ridiculous. Creating this much melodrama over two patently shitty examples is beyond ridiculous.

Anyone Can Die is still a complete nonexample — and still has the trope name spoilered out! Fridge Brilliance is still half natter and still belongs on the Fridge Brilliance page, where people can sign their observations. This isn't code for anything; they're just not good.

Honestly, the point of spoilering out Anyone Can Die is because that, in itself, is a major plot twist and thus, the mere reveal that multiple people can and do die in the series is spoiler enough that it should be hidden.

And everyone, STOP EDITING THE TROPE PAGE FOR THE SAKE OF THESE THINGS UNTIL WE HAVE ABSOLUTE CONSENSUS.

Anyone Can Die is vague, though—you'll know that at least two important people die sometime along the line, but you don't know who. And given a cast the size of Homestuck and their situation, "there are some dudes in this story who kick the bucket" is not really a huge deal. I skimmed through examples of the trope that have it listed on their own pages, and none of them have it spoilered out.

And Sweet Madness' compromise edit seems good enough to me; the majority of people want Anyone Can Die to stay, so it stays, case closed (spoilered or unspoilered). Same with Fridge Brilliance.

Okay, good enough then.

Mispost. Ignore this.

The problem with discussing stuff on the discussion page is that there's no way (With the sole exception of bookmarking) to keep up on the recentcrap and barely anyone visits the page, and if something shouldn't be somewhere, like page long spoilers, should just be removed. If you have a way of explaining something in three short words, then use three short words instead of three long paragraphs that equally convey those three short words.

Anyone Can Die does refer to the fact that it's realistically possible for the characters to die and not come back, like at the part where Jack found Jade sleeping. He could have killed her but didn't.

If you're willing to be the one to do it, sure.

Just make sure you don't define "Jossed" too broadly. I'm pretty sure there have been instances where a theory sort of looked disproved, then turned out to be correct anyway.

Organize them into folders? "Jossed," "Not Jossed" and "Never had a chance of being confirmed ever"?

Done

Ugh, someone reversed it and now the page is all disorganized again. Why?

Might be a good idea to take this discussion to the WMG Homestuck discussion page, rather than this one. ninjacrat didn't leave any edit reason, whatever the case.

And we now have our answer. Check the above mentioned discussion page.

Don't delete other people's guesses: WMG is a place for people to throw out wild and crazy and (optionally) tongue-in-cheek ideas just for the fun of it, and deleting them is very counter to that.

If a page gets to big we'll split it, like was done to Bleach.

Don't delete other people's guesses: WMG is a place for people to throw out wild and crazy and (optionally) tongue-in-cheek ideas just for the fun of it, and deleting them is very counter to that.

If a page gets to big we'll split it, like was done to Bleach.

Don't delete other people's guesses: WMG is a place for people to throw out wild and crazy and (optionally) tongue-in-cheek ideas just for the fun of it, and deleting them is very counter to that.

If a page gets to big we'll split it, like was done to Bleach.

Then do so. And while your at it, organize it. We don't need fifty+ threads on already disproved/proved theories.

He has a gigantic hole in his chest. Unless some healing ability gets introduced into the comic, I don't see him surviving. The "I won't be coming back" thing was based off of a Pesterchum, where pretty much everything is suspect.

This is Homestuck. All bets are off.

Dead people get replaced by Dream Selves. Or turn out to be alternate doomed timelines. There's a lot that can happen from here. We KNOW he survives long enough to have his "first" conversation with Karkut, which hasn't happened yet.

Which just means his Dreamself is still around.

And is pretty happy, from the looks of it.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something saying that God Tier players can only be killed if their death is "just" or during an "honorable" battle? And since Noir stabbed him in the back...

I'm pretty sure the context to the above makes clear that the above discussion was after the pages of John being stabbed by Noir was posted, and before "[S] JOHN. RISE UP."

I'm pretty sure the context to the above makes clear that the above discussion was after the pages of John being stabbed by Noir was posted, and before "[S] JOHN. RISE UP."

They were getting too big in each section. As another example we might need to make a separate page for Vriska at this rate.

If you add "(Tropes # to %)" after each one, I think it would be okay. I kind of like it.

Well, I sort of went there. Note how, for example, the first link is "Land of Apples and Cream".

Yeah, I got that. I'm just saying that specifying exactly what each link means will ensure that you won't confuse anyone while still keeping the joke intact.

Fair enough. Alright, I'll try putting it in.

Looks good to me. Good job on that one.

I spent a little too much time thinking it out; I even modified the headers of the subpages themselves. For some reason, my mind tends to be the most creative when I'm supposed to be studying for tests.

I should note that, while it might not be a hard and fast rule (though we've seen sixteen lands in-comic that fit the pattern, and the odd one out was to make a joke), the player-plants tend to be Lands of Bluh and Bluh or Lands of Bluh and Bluh-Bluh. This first item, that is, has almost categorically been a single-syllable word; Wind, Light, Heat, Frost, Haze, Thought, Tents, Sand, Maps, Rays, Caves, Quartz, Wrath, Dew, and Stumps have been shown in the comic.

In light of this, for verisimilitude's sake, the A-C, J-L and M-O trope-planets might need re-jiggering.

I'll think about it. Anybody know any good one-syllable A-words, J-words, or M-words that I could apply to the pattern?

There's a few for the latter two here. As far as A goes, I can only really think of Art, Ants, Apes, and Age.

I got A myself. Thanks for the link, I'll think about the other two.

Would "Juice" work for J? You could make another Level Ate with the Land of Juice and Lattes.

...That makes more sense than it should.

"Land of Jails and Legislation"? "Land of Jokes and Laughing?"

I went with Juice and Lunchmeat. Now we just need M-O.

Aaaaand done.

I think 'Umbrellas' should be changed to 'Unicorns' to set up the Squiddles Reference (Unicorns / Zinc). Anyone?

For that matter, anyone mind if I change "Sand" to "Sun" in that list? Because it's been bugging me forever that that overlaps with Tavros' Land of Sand and Zephyr.

Jadesprite was, and so was Descend

All five?

Did you start at the beginning or try to jump in at the middle?

At the beginning. I mean, I'm no point-and-click game scholar or anything, but I'm experiencing a ridiculous inability to comprehend anything this game/comic does or why. Did they really explain how SBURB or whatever allows you to alter reality in someone's house?

No, but if you have a problem with that, Homestuck probably isn't the webcomic for you.

Explain, not really, but in a way. The kids are characters in the game "Homestuck"- witness their gamelike inventory systems and the fact that they are responding to "commands". In that game, the game Sburb allows modification of their homes, Simslike.

I got that - the inventory system, at least. That was funny. The SBURB thing stuck out to me because I don't think that got any foreshadowing at all despite a few references to the game beforehand.

I don't like that page's sub-heading. "You let your jaw drop to the floor at the mere mention of these suspenseful twists and turns" doesn't sound particularly Homestuckish.

Feel free to change it. I was having trouble with it anyway, I just needed a quick placeholder.

I was actually just about the ask the same thing, except I was going to recommend a HSQ page, because I think we're not going to be seeing an upper limit to that anytime soon...

But yes, that. There are some events in Homestuck that can't be categorized as awesome, heartwarming, tearjerker, whatever but are still those moments where you go "OMG$#+_$)KF#$_)K#$)K?!?!?!" that really need their own page lest the main page get so long with examples.

I vote for starting a Wham Episode page XD Although, come to think of it, this might be unprecedented. I don't think I've come across any other series with their own Wham Episode page. That would be pretty sweet if it really was the first.

I'm gonna make one then. We can divide it by Acts, since otherwise it would probably get waaaaay too ridiculous.

BUNP: and there you go. Added it to related pages.

Who would have to die for the trope to be applicable?

I'd say we'd need at least one kid or troll to die permanently. Preferably more.

"Die permanently". So no dreamself nonsense or alternate timelines or anything like that?

...Somehow I don't picture that happening.

Main characters, ostensibly.

Anyone Can Die refers to anyone up to and including main characters dying throughout the story, and the "throughout" is the important thing. We're nearly at the end of act 5 with the most important non villain deaths being Bro and Davesprite who are supporting characters (dreamselves and alternate future Daves don't count to this cause they're not really seperate characters until they have a chance to establish themselves as their own person like Davesprite did). In order to reach the point of Anyone Can Die the next two acts (if Andrew Hussie sticks to the 7 act total he suggested) would need to reach Kill Em All levels.

How about this.. AnyoneCanHalfDie? After all, oneor..two main characters and every troll has had half of themselves be killed.

How about this.. AnyoneCanHalfDie? After all, oneor..two main characters and every troll has had half of themselves be killed.

Well, as of this posting, I think the Anyone Can Die has never been more justified. :|

Nope! I'm going to revert all those edits once the page is unlocked

It follows the Rules As We Know Them so far... which, of course, very little ELSE that happened in that flash did, so it's safe to say that we have no idea what Andrew is going to pull out on this one.

The timestamp on his reply to Terezi's memo on the destruction of Prospit places him at least fifteen minutes after Vriska wakes up. We can assume he's getting up.

Edit: WELP

Aha, I had been wondering why he took half an hour to fall - clearly there's a time jump between Vriska waking up at 3:14 and them fighting.

What would anybody who's not familiar with the series be doing on this page in the first place?

Well, if you're like me, you discovered Homestuck through it's trope page. Tvtropes introduced me first to most webcomic I've read.

But I don't see a particularly dense collection of injokes or gimmicks. A lot of the citations seem pretty normal to me.

The actual description is pretty normal, though it could stand to mention a bit of what happens past act 1. It only starts getting in-jokey once it turns into an index, but remains readable. The subpage collection is odd but perfectly understandable. The tropes are a bit strange (and may confuse even readers of the comic), but is explained fairly well.

We should probably at this point make a mention that if people want to enjoy HS in it's entirety, they avoid reading through the page. There's plenty of unmarked spoilers - particularly Jack's ascension, which to us has become old news.

...In fact, anyone mind if I do that now?

That's good and all, but doesn't that make this page sort of a Wiki Walk dead end?

It basically does, yes, but would you rather cut someone's Wiki Walk short or have them Spoilered Rotten?

That should be their decision to make.

If newbie interpretation of the page is really an issue, we could try re-organizing the examples so that instead of being listed alphabetically, they're separated according to the kinds of tropes they are. Say-

• Setting
• Fandom
• Act I
• Act II
• Act III
• etc.

...Of course, given that the page is at critical mass this would be a great deal of work, probably requiring the cooperation of several tropers. But it would solve the problem of poor newbie access to the examples, and just be more readable in general.

I'm all for reorganization, and you can count me in to help!

@ Soniclover: I never said that it wasn't their decision, but a warning helps things. At least then they no what they're getting into.

As far as reorganization... it'd take a lot of work... but if enough interest is drummed up... count me in.

We've already established that Vriska's got her hands in everything. So I wasn't terribly surprised by this "development", personally.

Whenever one of the characters used a terminal and switched what screen to watch. WV used it the first time we saw him, John when he was in the ectobiology lab, and maybe more I'm forgetting.

They are typed when an exile switches the view from one kid to another on a SBURB terminal.

John himself uses it extensively during his ectobiology session.

Edit: Whoops, ninja by 15 minutes. Should have refreshed...

Can someone pitch me a direct link to one of those pages? I'm too lazy to look it up.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002614

Also Snowman used it to switch between Terezi and Vriska. But yeah, I was mostly thinking of the paradox clone sequence, which had a series of ">John: => SWITCH 2". (Good catch adding the letters after, by the way—I thought it would just be clear from mousing over, but this seems better.) It seemed like the best way to keep the command gag running on this page after splitting it.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12911386090A37310100&page=1

Homestuck was on the list, both Main and Characters.

Good to know. I've already made the main page into an index.

I didn't do it, but it doesn't seem like a great match for the kids. John and Jade both seem sanguine, Rose melancholic, Dave maybe phlegmatic — it'd require some real stretching to get Jade and Dave to the temperaments associated with their classical elements. Also, even if it fit it should probably go on the Kids' page.

EDIT: ...now, it kind of does make sense for the Midnight Crew. Clubs is sanguine, Slick choleric, Droog melancholic, Hearts phlegmatic. Well, maybe not that last one.

How is Dave phlegmatic? o_O Phlegmatics are quiet and inoffensive — that's practically their defining trait. Dave is arrogant and generally does whatever he feels like. That's a mark of a choleric, not phlegmatic. As for John being sanguine, yes, he can definitely be read that way, but I've heard that common portrayals of him in fandom are as the "quiet, ordinary guy". Another important trait of phlegmatics is that they seem "ordinary" — they tend to try and fit in rather than stand out from the crowd. John is undeniably the most "ordinary" of the kids, and most of the fanfic I've read seems to portray him that way.

I suppose at one point it just gets into a debate about interpretations of the characters though, which is kind of pointless...

P.S. Yeah, Hearts is a second choleric, which throws a spanner into the entire pattern with the Midnight Crew. :( Pity, that would have been good to add if everything fit.

Well, like you said it's a debate about interpretation of the characters, which is too pointless for the main page, but I thought "Exhibits optimism, good cheer, a love of fun, enthusiasm" described John better than "calm, stoic, reliable, compassionate, observant"; hence sanguine rather than phlegmatic. In the comic as opposed to fandom, I wouldn't describe him as quiet; he's the prankster who uses a lot of exclamation points (well not as many as Jade). Dave seems more stoic and doesn't strive for leadership, which is why I had him as phlegmatic rather than choleric, but eh.

Anyway, it seems like it takes some shoving to turn the kids into the four temperaments, and they really don't match their associated classical elements — Jade is earth, which would be melancholic, which seems pretty much the opposite of true.

For what it's worth, whoever wrote up Homestuck on the Four-Temperament Ensemble page had your take on the kids and my take on the Midnight Crew.

So then it's a Pseudo-Crisis?

Actually yeah. Pseudo-Crisis fits pretty well.