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I think the trope pages should be listed before the supplemental pages. The supplements are already listed at the top and the main tropes tend to be what people first check out when finding a work on TV Tropes, to my knowledge. It's also better for people who discover the comic through the site to get some semblance of the story from the Tropes before diving into the sub-pages.
I'd just like to point out that the main page hasn't been updated since the Gigapause, which seems a bit odd but whatever.
SabineScr1pter recently made some changes to the page, by modifying some information. On the main page, he/she removed the note from the word counter, changed the number of day from 1463 to 463, and changed the number of animated footage from 3 to 53. He/she also removed or changed some lines here. I'm not entirely sure this is vandalism, so I wanted to be sure of it by bringing this to your attention.
might want to report such issues in Ask The Tropers.
I think the events of [S] GAME OVER, wherein Terezi, after witnessing the death of essentially all her friends, enduring a brutal fight with Gamzee, being mind-controlled into stabbing herself in the chest, and psychic-thrown meters to the ground, still manages to remove the sword and scream something at Aranea, could be added as an example of the Determinator trope of Terezi Pyrope's page. But I have some doubts as to whether that actually is an example, as there is no clear goal she's working towards.
Perhaps moving to kill Aranea after the fight with Gamzee and observing her friends' deaths would be a better example than the whole of her hardships in [S] GAME OVER. I'd like some input on this from other tropers, because I'm not all that sure of it.
I can't believe there isn't a recap or synopsis page.
Well, if you want to take on the task of attempting to recap this Timey-Wimey Ball of a plotline, you are welcome to it! You don't need "permission" or approval to launch those sorts of pages.
A recap page would be awesome, you could give all of the acts their own pages and everything. It would serve as a really helpful resource to first-time readers too. Although with just how long Homestuck is I feel like we'd need a few people helping. Is anyone up for this?
Well, I would be, but I just realized this was made a year ago.
I would love to change the Music.Homestuck link from "Catalog" to "Captchalogue", since that's a pun throughout the series, but I feel like someone would just change it back and back and back again.
Since the last two edits were just that, I'd like to just mention why does it matter. Just stop.
If Homestuck is ending, why is there nothing about it on any page on this site!?
'cause it's not?
Its closer to its end then to the beggining.
I was looking at the Funny Moments page, and it seems like a new example get's added to one of those as soon as there's an update. So I'm wondering whether that's fine or maybe the Funny list can be trimmed down a bit. Also, this is somewhat the case with the Tearjerker and Nightmare Fuel pages, if every update keeps getting added to these lists, those pages will contain a lot of Homestuck instead of some choice moments in the story.
Can someone put a proper image on the page? As someone who has never touched the comic I can safely say it makes no sense, and a visual work should have an appropriate image to represent it.
I'm jogging my mind trying to think if there exists of a more representative visual artwork, but I am hard pressed to find one more suited to the job. Although the nature of Homestuck within web media would imply such a thing would exist, the story has become so abstracted and widespread that no single image can do it justice. I understand your reasoning, yet at this time I think it's best if we leave a more nebulous image in one's mind, lest we skew your perceptions of the work in any particular way.
Confusing me by being vague does skew my perception of the work XD
This isn't a perfect example because it doesn't do much to capture the humor of the comic, but the video used on the Kickstarter page does a good job of showing the more dramatic moments without spoiling anything.
Quick question; anyone else unable to get to the MS Paint Adventures site? It's been down for a while now (for me, at least.)
Same here, I'm guessing the server is in one of the areas still in a blackout damage caused by Sandy.
Reverted the move to Web Original. While it is debatable whether Homestuck is a Web Comic in the conventional sense, Web Original is a deprecated namespace and no article should be created on it. I suggest whoever did it does not do it again.
Homestuck may constitute above and beyond the actual webcomic genre (meriting a Main space) with the release of the Gaiden Game, however, as that doesn't come out until 2014, we'll be able to see if that's warranted or not long in advance.
Action Comics still belongs in the comics genre, even though there are Superman movies, video games, etc. This belongs in Web Comic and that should never change.
^^ That would be a Franchise namespace, not Main/. No works should be in main.
Hey, everyone. I created a Self-Demonstrating page for Doc Scratch. Can anyone help me improve it?
What's up with the fandom specific plots subpage? The last thing we need is yet ANOTHER subpage, and the continued fracturing of the actual content through increasing overhead abstraction and obfuscation. I know this type of page has been sanctioned for other works, but Homestuck simply cannot afford any further fragmentation. The content should either be moved to the main trope body or under the fanfics page.
so why haven't you done it yet?
I don't want to exactly move/delete information without asking for the opinions of those who made it in the first place or else edit warring would ensue. I'll take care of it myself after another day so other people may know.
I agree. There's not enough information to merit a subpage. Perhaps list it as a subsection of a centralized hub Fan page; we can redirect fan music and fan fiction to that and then subpage it off.
Done that, also put in Timeline as well as it's a fan project.
Where should I list this on a trope's work page? It's, uh, uncategorizable.
Either in Webcomic or Web Original. It doesn't really matter which.
It looks like a bunch of /v/irgins are vandalizing this page. Should we temporarily lock it?
Hello. I have not been seen around here on this corner of the Homestuck internet, but I have followed this page very closely, because I am a huge fan. The Troper community introduced me to the comic in fact. And a few people from the Comic Discussion thread on the site forums were thinking about organizing a semi-formal page-scrubbing.
A chance to, once and for all, go through example by example and move things to the correct subpage if needed, tighten up wording, or delete/explain better what needs it. I would certainly not want to impose or step on any toes, and this is why I am asking here first. Is there any process/person I should go through beforehand?
I understand not wanting the entire page re-written, but I think if a couple dedicated people took a letter each for one day, this could work out really well.
Sounds fine to me. The main pages are actually kind of a huge mess compared to everything else, which is why I actually heavily avoid them, even though I've cleaned up WMG pages, Headscratchers, and character sheets, I dare not touch the main page. There's no real procedure you need to worry about. If someone else watching the page gets upset they'll probably just PM you. If you're even still doing the project that is; this is a really delayed reply. If you're not though, I may get around to it sometime in May when I'm out of school and figuring out what to do for 3 months.
I plan on taking the project back up now, if anyone is interested.
For now I am starting small and monitoring the character pages. But I want to get speculation out of the main page when I have a chance.
It has not been updated in a while, which is helpful.
I'd be happy to help in whatever ways I can! I feel we could condense the Homestuck pages and reduce the splintering of the articles as they have grown. From a nonsubjective viewpoint the main page looks cluttered, verbose(it is no longer in moderation or in taste), and hard to navigate. Although I appreciate the spirit of the organization, it's simply a joke that we've run with and overtaken to the point of impracticality.
I'm gonna trim down the main pages now. The joke about lands is yeah, old. I'll tackle small sections and may well forget, but I'll try to note in each edit how far I got through and I'll post here with status every now and again.
Edit 1: A-C done. Will try to tackle the bulk of it tomorrow. I've decided this will be my last major project for the HS pages around here, so I'm gonna do this one right.
Edit 2: D-F done. Got sidetracked today with creating a consolidated fan hub and a unified reactions page for Wham Episode, Wham Line, etc. Just some small things that nonetheless took a bit of time to figure out.
Edit 3: It's done, with a little help from Sonic Lover.
Because I'm fairly certain someone will bring it up, the whole thing about Dirk and Roxy being in the future is a point of consistency primarily for me, as it's similar to our avoidance of concretely calling UU and uu trolls. The way I see it we have two options here: either we can go with the obvious conclusion (UU is a troll, Dirk and Roxy are in the future etc) and correct later if we're wrong, or wait for a canonical explanation. I'm fine either way, I just removed the examples and added a note so we're consistent between pages.
Since made irrelevant.
I feel that the fact that at least Jake's eyes are part of his glasses fit in a trope of some sort. Is this true?
Square Peg, Round Trope; and it's already listed as a lampshading of Eye Glasses. It wasn't a serious thing, but a joke.
A minor project up for grabs if anyone wants it; getting sprites or art on every character listing, as we've got a lot of characters now with art but no art in their section. I'll get around to it after the WMG pages, but I'm not the most skilled with art programs by any means, so art I implement might not be as optimal.
That is actually a very good idea, but we should probably use canonical character art. Just to show proportions of the characters, however, if we do art ourselves, we should put it somewhere in one of the fanfic pages. Unless you happen to be part of the art team...
Should we create a new Character page for UU and any other trolls that would possibly be introduced during the Alpha session? If there are going to be any future Alpha trolls, the "Alpha Session Other" page would probably not be the best place to put them.
When we get some tropes for her brother, I plan on making an "Alpha Trolls" subsection.
I think that I figured out how the trolls will avoid extinction: the post scratch alpha session appears to have lusi on it, which would likely include a mother grub underground.
WMG goes to WMG man, sorry. Sounds like a theory but there's not room for speculating here.
Folders are breaking on some of the WMG pages. I'm all for deleting some of the really old Jossed ones, but anyone know if I'm just being dumb here?
Given that it's been a few months, I'm gonna go ahead and just delete them here in the next few days. I'll keep text files of them and maybe make a pastebin or googledoc if anyone thinks they need to be preserved. As it stands they're just a bunch of old theories, and like in all things, we toss out blatantly wrong old ideas.
This says not to delete theories just because they're Jossed.
Nobody can excuse me for being patient for 3 months with no reply.
At any rate, do you have an idea then? Because we have so many Jossed theories that we'd probably need to make anywhere from 3-10 pages just to hold them all without breaking browsers and the site, but that seems like a less than ideal solution. This isn't just limited to the ones on the Jossed page; Jossed (and confirmed to a lesser extent) theories are cluttering up every other page.
Mm, not really. I'm going to try and trim some of it down though, cleanup on natter and repetition, etc. And I'll try and gather the Lord English identity theories together.
Also — I don't know how helpful this'd be, but — could we delete the "Jossed" after every entry? It is the Jossed page, after all.
Gimme a couple days and I should have the Jossed pages in order. The Jossed thing is only on new WMG s, and I plan on removing them from cluttering every page, so I can easily get rid of that. It's a lot of work though and for little thanks so I'll probably be less than prompt with it.
Any theory that is outright incomprehensible or a repeat though is getting straight up deleted.
E: Someone may need to go through the Jossed theories and pick through to find what's actually confirmed and what was tossed out prematurely. I may get around to it (as there are far less than I remember there being), but certainly not until things are orderly on the main pages.
Okay, so Act 6 with the Scratched universe. For the character page, how should we do this? Start a new page for the Scratched kids? What do we call the page, and where does it fit in with the character index's number scheme? where doing it man?
That said, preemptive Jane image for whenever this goes ahead◊.
Seems to have worked out pretty 0kay
Renamed Act 6 to Alpha Session though; because eventually there'll be a whole host of characters so it works better this way. If there end up being so many characters that we need to split it; we'll just move them to a real number instead of 11.11.11
I am a regular follower of Homestuck, I just wanted to put that out there. Now, I had caught up and been following for a while when the EOA 5 business started up. I was using my windows xp laptop at the time so I had to lug this charger everywhere, but that's not a major problem here. A couple days ago the EOA 5 came out, and as a midnight watcher I downloaded it and watched it when my charger begins to fail. Nothing overly special right? Kind of, but upon showing it to my friends the next day it died in the midst of the EOA. I sort of feel odd at the convience, but determined to fill the all in on the action, I then showed it to another one of my friends later on a regular windows xp pc and it worked normally.
Trying to follow along with the story after that, I located another charger and watched the Intermission 2. I liked it and sent it to my friend, but honest to goodness her windows vista computer Crashed! Wiping out several hundreds of files and a story she had been working on since forever!
My conclusion: Homestuck is too awesome or too powerful to be contained on this internet.
God that's awful that she lost her work
But of course it would happen with English's arrival huh...
You have now successfully changed Homestuck from an amazing Webcomic to the most terrifying ARG experience since BEN DROWNED. Oh crap I hear honking!
if her computer glitched, why didn't it just delete lord english?
ok, that was kind of dumb.
What is the Analysis page on Homestuck for? It literally has no content and I can't think of anything that would actually go there, anything that wouldn't just end up in headscratchers, WMG or Fridge anyways.
Might've been made as an option for the timeline page or simply was created as someone starting to do a project analyzing how Homestuck works and uses tropes (which would be fascinating in and of itself were it not for being insanely hard) but was abandoned. Given that it's not linked to on the main page, I'm inclined to believe it's one of these two or something along similar lines.
Hmm that actually would not be a bad option on where to place that timeline
Avoids keeping the timeline namespace yeah.
Two things. First whoever started the timeline page you have all my love, so that's out there. Second I want to put this progresive alignment chart by Tenebrais somewhere because it is a thing a beauty. http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?40546-Homestuck-Alignments
But where would I put it?
First: Exploding Frogs would be glad to hear that (although I'm not since I'm against the page atm haha), and second, nowhere because unfortunately alignments are complete YMMV
For instance, I completely disagree with most of that. John is much closer to Neutral Good and Karkat is Chaotic Good; Doc's probably the closest to Neutral Evil in comic. And so on.
Fun picture yeah but it doesn't really have a place here unfortunately. Deathsbuddy a bit farther down in the thread describes it best really: "The alignment system is overly limiting and assumes shallow, two-dimensional characters" which the characters of Homestuck really aren't.
EDIT: Whoops you meant the chart later down. Still YMMV though, and doesn't take into account character development, such as Eridan or Doc becoming worse, or John becoming better.
Folded Jadesprite and Jade's sections together; in light of Cascade they're the same character again and it's easier just to have them together rather than apart
Plus Jade's section was notably smaller than that of the other kids because tropes were split across her and Jadesprite so maybe things are evened out now.
and made a fanmusic page. Probably needs to be reworked but the rough draft is up
My fingers hurt.
Thanks to those of you who helped make the fanmusic page work; I really appreciate that.
Someone more familiar than I with how Fanfic pages are run may want to go in and get some sort of a similar system set up? I'm not certain how to even begin that honestly.
Cleaned up the WHAM page; I wasn't exactly polite about it though. Honestly I'm questioning why the page even needs to exist at this point. People have shown that they'll add pretty much every new plot development there, regardless of whether it constitutes a WHAM episode. Maybe we need a recap page so we don't lose the place for people to discuss that? At any rate it was really messy and there was conversation in the page and everything.
I think we should wait until Homestuck's done before going back, analyzing, and cataloging all the "Wham!" moments. That way we can look at all the moments and think, "Which moments were actually shocking and crucial to the plot, and which ones in retrospect weren't as important?"
Makes sense. That's basically what I did for the previous acts and most of Act 5-2
For now keep up the link, save all the moments into some text file for safe keeping and replace the wham page with the following phrase, "All of it, just all of it."
Fanmusic listed on here is being treated awkwardly, to say the least. The "Fanfic Recs" page includes a section for fanmusic that links to the LOFAM album, but all the actual fanmusic recommendations are listed on the Crowning Music of Awesome page in their own section there. Should they be combined into one section somewhere, should the pages be linked to each other, or should something else be done? The way it is now is just too haphazard.
What the heck is fanmusic doing on the Fanfic Recs page? I can sort of see the logic, but that's just silly.
Because it's not an official album and unlike Radiation's baby album this is going to be a recurring thing. We could just make a fan music page, but putting it with Fanfic was always a temporary measure.
You know what Homestuck hasn't achieved yet? It hasn't yet been the Trope Namer for anything yet.
And that was probably one or two yet's too many.
That's partially because Homestuck hasn't done anything new per se, more of the story derives from subversions and deconstructions of common literary trends. And don't count it out, I'm sure there's something that'll happen.
If you count alternate page names, there's Joke Doing Creator, but...
Sweet Bro And Hella Jeff is just begging for it. There shall be a day when The Big Man Hass The Rock does not Red Link.
Maybe we could use The Coart Is On FIRE for depictions where sports are happening so hard it's ignites things.
Or we can use that to refer to sports as Serious Business/What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? in general.
Either/or; What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? could really use a sub-trope for sports. Anyone wanna launch it?
Well Homestuck has more than once caused some WMG's to be both Jossed and confirmed at the same time, and there was the fora's "gorrila suit at a basketball game" but in reverse reaction to the update with Aradia's ancestor.
It's not that Homestuck hasn't done anything new it's just, how the hell do we qualify some of these things?
Also theres the fact that SBAHJ is basically a completely seperate webcomic that only exists to foreshadow events that will happen in Homestuck. I don't know what that qualifies as but it should qualify for something.
How about "He's Already Here" for moments in a story that we are expecting a big villain to be revealed but instead the villain is a character we already know. Spoiler-ish examples below:
Lord English is really... well that one is complicated.
Voltarius from TV Tome Adventures is really Zetto.
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow with the lord of shadow, and the eventual dracula.
... I suck at examples.
that is actually a really good idea
What the heck do we even do with the latest update? There were some obvious mood whiplash moments in there, but... Is it a missed moment of awesome? Because it was done in a brilliantly funny way it's just... What in the heck do we even do with the latest update!?
Why is it a missed moment of awesome? Because there was a fight that didn't happen? I don't really see that as being a missed moment of awesome since Andrew has been doing that a lot. Still always best to hold off on update judging until we see how it ends. For all we know, Karkat stabbed Gamzee between the ribs during their hug.
It's not a Missed Moment Of Awesome because a Missed Moment Of Awesome is not something awesome that didn't happen, it's something awesome that we didn't get to see.
Hence "missed". Because we missed it.
So, yeah. There weren't any of those.
It was renamed Offscreen Moment of Awesome.
Nooo, now there's no alliteration
why am i replying to this 4 years after this was made
Okay, since the old discussion was lost I'll ask agiain: Since John is known for terrible taste in movies does any movie he praises count as a Take That!?
Yes. But be sure to clarify you mean the strict definition of the trope, where it's a loving jab, because it tends to get misused a lot.
Also if and when the story finally gets to the Scratch, and the new kids (possibly the old guardians? who can say) start showing up, should we make a separate character page for them? Or subsections within the already existent pages.
If you have to begin a query like that with "if and when", it's too early to be contemplating it.
I'm just going based on what we do know at the moment. Given how much Homestuck changes, it could update with the new Kids tomorrow or in October, and it's best to have a plan to deal with that problem before it arises.
I think it's best we shelve the issue until we know a bit more about what we're dealing with.
Yeah, wait until we find out more about how the new kids will be played. Given what we just learned about the trolls' ancestors...
In light of the lost archives, I'm posing a question again: Considering the update schedule and haphazard implementation, I think it's best if we just cut spoiler tags entirely and warn in like neon text that there are no spoilers marked. Because we have stuff from Act 2 spoiler tagged and it's getting quite confusing. There's no real reason to not be caught up unless you're one of the small subset reading at a slower pace, and to my knowledge they don't really frequent the forums or this page much. If nobody has any objections, I'll start taking care of it this weekend.
It might not be that bad an idea.
It's just so damn inconsistent. And what one person considers a spoiler is something another might not. Simpler to just not have to have a headache saying "Every new plot development gets spoilertagged for X days" or something. There's no real need for them is the thing.
It's a bit early I guess but I'm going ahead with it. Nobody's raised any objections thus far so I'm proceeding under the assumption that there are none. If someone goes ahead and reverts them without putting a justification here, I am gonna be annoyed :\
I would think it should only be necessary to set a policy for what the "spoiler barrier" is - probably between the start of Act 5 Act 2 and when the trolls start dropping, if not before Bec's prototyping.
Admittedly, the way the story unfolds makes it difficult and possibly justifies the inconsistency - people have probably just been spoilering anything that's been portrayed as a twist (like Noir killing the Black Queen), while spoilering the names of the trolls and everything about their ancestors, not to mention the very existence of Doc Scratch, would be impractical. Considering the twist at the end of the Midnight Crew intermission, it's arguable that there's a separate spoiler point for every act save 1 and possibly 2 and 3, with the exception of things you need to know to understand subsequent un-spoilered developments.
I'm not raising a vehement objection to de-spoilering everything, but I do think "inconsistency" is a rather weak justification for it, and at the very least edit the text you de-spoiler to make it less awkward. (I'm thinking especially of the description of the ancestors.) I think spoiler tags aren't just to avoid spoilering people who haven't read the comic, but to provide a sense of "before" and "after", and arguably, nowhere is that idea more appropriate than with Homestuck.
Oh, and the old discussion page is still there. Just change "Webcomic" in the URL above with "Main".
Perhaps, but again delineating between before and after is hard with Homestuck, when effect can come before the cause as with the Scratch. Besides as of late it may be Before, after, after the after, and after the after the after etc which elongates the spoilers. For instance Gamzee goes insane. But then every plot point after that involving him also has to be spoilered. You see what I mean? The CMOA and related pages were like this. The first few point and some thereafter were unspoiled but around the start of Act 5 most everything is spoiled completely and that's also the bulk of the page.
The text is incredibly awkward I'll agree, but picking out the spoilers is tedious work and it gives me headaches, so I'm sorry that everything's not great. It's easy enough to fix. And once again the main justification is really "why even have them" when we pretty much assume everyone to be caught up before reading the pages (and tell them to do so). There is a justification perhaps in that critical spoilers from early acts should be hidden, but the problem is that they become built into the next act and taken for granted. The fact that Homestuck is about the apocalypse is something virtually nobody would consider a major spoiler, yet it's the key spoiler in Act 1. The same applies for the existence of the Trolls, where John exactly is during Act 2, and so on. It's simpler to write the text out and explain the progression of the story than to apply spoilers the way we were doing. Relying on spoilers to help tell the events of the story is something that ultimately doesn't work as we proceed through a sheer tidal wave of spoilerable material
The most concise message I can think of is one of the edit tips, where a most spoilered out example doesn't serve very well as an example. A mostly spoilered out page doesn't serve very well as a page.
Does the spoiler removal apply for moments of funny/high octane nightmare fuel/etc?
Can't see why not.
Basically the only thing I can see spoilers making sense for would be some of the punny names which were spoiler tagged, like on Terezi's page.
Those two pages mentioned above were ones I accidentally missed when editing oops.
The WMG pages probably should have them removed, but then again the WMG pages need a complete overhaul and I'm not really up to that any time in the near future.
My quick thinking is that there might be different spoiler points for each act, given how much Hussie shakes things up at the end of each act then maintains a stable status quo for a while without necessarily revisiting the EOA developments right away, or for each group of the cast. I definitely agree that if we strictly tried to hide every twist, the entire page would become filled with spoilers, including the very existence of some character groups; it'd be absurd to hide the fact that there's a meteor about to strike the earth late in Act 1. That doesn't mean, though, that there isn't a meaningful distinction between past and future. Despite being a big reason for the comic's popularity, the trolls would be a pretty big spoiler for a reader knowing nothing about Homestuck. That they start dying, however, is still something worth hiding for someone going in knowing about their existence.
Most twists should probably be spoilered unless they're too fundamental to subsequent events, so I'll use the Wham Episode page as my main guide. (That page needs a major cleanup. I'm having trouble believing some of those things in Act 5-2 were that shocking, and there's a considerable amount of nested bullets.) On the other hand, anything that could have conceivably happened in an unspoilered position can probably be unspoilered, like Gamzee and Tavros' jam in Scratch's interval.
Near as I can tell, all the WMG pages really need is resorting and getting Unsorted to the point where it can be cut-listed (assuming I'm correctly interpreting its intent). Part of the problem, though, is that given the author's penchant for misdirection, the proliferation of alt-timelines, and the general nature of time, not to mention the sheer amount of material in the story theory-makers need to remember and info in two separate formspring accounts, it can be very difficult to determine with certainty when a theory is confirmed or jossed.
There's a lot of stuff there that I agree with so here's my thoughts
The fundamental flaw with your idea (which is very good) is that spoilers in a previous part or act are built into the narrative of the next. The only way we could do the idea you suggest would involve a lot of confusing page tricks and misleading examples, and possibly several types of spoiler within spoiler. For instance, we say John is the Heir of Breath and gets revived into his god tiers is a spoiler. But that means every act of him using his powers afterwards is also a spoiler. And it just keeps piling up with others. The problem with using spoilers with Homestuck is that you're trying to apply standard webcomic spoiler policy; spoil the end of the arc. But Homestuck is more akin to a novel. Besides our ideas of spoilers must differ some, I at least considered Jade getting the beta spoiler worthy, as is that she lives on the island with the Frog temple.
I'm not trying to sound rude or harsh like "ALL SPOILERS MUST GTFO" but I simply can't see a way we apply spoilers to pages without them quickly becoming a mess like they were again. Maybe after it's completion, we can make a list of major plot developments and spoil then, but until that point too much is moving too quickly and opinions differ.
What happened to the old Discussion Page? There isn't even a link to it, nor is there one for archives
I think it was lost because we moved the main page from Main.Homestuck to Webcomic.Homestuck.
I'm quite late to the party, but:
Sinec John is known for terrible taste in movies does any movie he praise count as a Take That! by the author? I ask because of the strip where he alchemitized the Serious Business Glasses.
Yes probably, and not in the harsh sense but the joking "Oh this is horrible; why do I love it so much" sense. I'd point out that to make all the references, Hussie would have to be pretty familiar with said movies.
Can we re-evaluate the page's number of Wiks Homestuck has? As far as I know, Homestuck's position in the Trope Overdosed page hasn't been updated in a while, and since Homestuck seems to be an ever growing tumor that absorbs tropes with no end in sight, I gotta wonder if it's reached Trope Saturated by now.
There is a python script to do this in the Trope Overdosed page. I don't know beans about beans about Python so maybe someone can take on this challenge and see where we stand now.
Spoilers are really haphazard (we've got stuff from Act 2 spoilered but not some stuff from Act 5) and we do have the spoiler warning on the front page. Would it just be easier all said to remove all of them, and warn anyone about that in advance? I can't imagine that people finding Homestuck from examples are going to be linked to character pages or the YMMV tab and it just seems like less trouble.
We have MoodWhiplash.Homestuck and MemeticMutation.Homestuck pages now? Wow, where's the Homestuck.Homestuck page?
They were getting too big in each section. As another example we might need to make a separate page for Vriska at this rate.
Topic moved to Character discussion where it belongs
Motion to change the nightmare fuel page image to this◊, because I think it's safe to say Gamzee is officially the scariest thing in Homestuck right now. Bar none.
I second this motion
Make it so.
Go for it! But might I make another suggestion? How about a screenshot of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95kgMvE6-co @ 0:35 that is if we are considering fandom and not just the original work
I considered changing the text for the trope subpage links to something a bit more creative, but didn't because I didn't want to add unnecessary confusion. For the record, here's what I was planning to change it to:
If you add "(Tropes # to %)" after each one, I think it would be okay. I kind of like it.
Well, I sort of went there. Note how, for example, the first link is "Land of Apples and Cream".
Yeah, I got that. I'm just saying that specifying exactly what each link means will ensure that you won't confuse anyone while still keeping the joke intact.
Fair enough. Alright, I'll try putting it in.
Looks good to me. Good job on that one.
I spent a little too much time thinking it out; I even modified the headers of the subpages themselves. For some reason, my mind tends to be the most creative when I'm supposed to be studying for tests.
I should note that, while it might not be a hard and fast rule (though we've seen sixteen lands in-comic that fit the pattern, and the odd one out was to make a joke), the player-plants tend to be Lands of Bluh and Bluh or Lands of Bluh and Bluh-Bluh. This first item, that is, has almost categorically been a single-syllable word; Wind, Light, Heat, Frost, Haze, Thought, Tents, Sand, Maps, Rays, Caves, Quartz, Wrath, Dew, and Stumps have been shown in the comic.
In light of this, for verisimilitude's sake, the A-C, J-L and M-O trope-planets might need re-jiggering.
I'll think about it. Anybody know any good one-syllable A-words, J-words, or M-words that I could apply to the pattern?
There's a few for the latter two here. As far as A goes, I can only really think of Art, Ants, Apes, and Age.
I got A myself. Thanks for the link, I'll think about the other two.
Would "Juice" work for J? You could make another Level Ate with the Land of Juice and Lattes.
...That makes more sense than it should.
"Land of Jails and Legislation"?
"Land of Jokes and Laughing?"
I went with Juice and Lunchmeat. Now we just need M-O.
I think 'Umbrellas' should be changed to 'Unicorns' to set up the Squiddles Reference (Unicorns / Zinc). Anyone?
For that matter, anyone mind if I change "Sand" to "Sun" in that list? Because it's been bugging me forever that that overlaps with Tavros' Land of Sand and Zephyr.
Is it at all odd that I don't understand this at all? I just started "playing" a day or so ago and I haven't gotten very far, but I feel like I missed a few lectures. But in what context could any of this really make sense?
Did you start at the beginning or try to jump in at the middle?
At the beginning. I mean, I'm no point-and-click game scholar or anything, but I'm experiencing a ridiculous inability to comprehend anything this game/comic does or why. Did they really explain how SBURB or whatever allows you to alter reality in someone's house?
No, but if you have a problem with that, Homestuck probably isn't the webcomic for you.
Explain, not really, but in a way. The kids are characters in the game "Homestuck"- witness their gamelike inventory systems and the fact that they are responding to "commands". In that game, the game Sburb allows modification of their homes, Simslike.
I got that - the inventory system, at least. That was funny. The SBURB thing stuck out to me because I don't think that got any foreshadowing at all despite a few references to the game beforehand.
As an earlier conversation suggested, I created a Wham Episode page specifically for Homestuck. Feel free to add past, present and future examples there (And this way we can curb the balooning of the entry in the tropes list by putting it elsewhere!)
I don't like that page's sub-heading. "You let your jaw drop to the floor at the mere mention of these suspenseful twists and turns" doesn't sound particularly Homestuckish.
Feel free to change it. I was having trouble with it anyway, I just needed a quick placeholder.
I couldn't help but notice that this update is linked on Awesome.Homestuck, Funny.Homestuck, Heartwarming.Homestuck, TearJerker.Homestuck, and NightmareFuel.Homestuck. I don't think I've ever seen any work hit all five categories at the same time before.
Jadesprite was, and so was Descend
Aradia's Dreamself- think this qualifies as Sealed Good in a Can? For twisted definitions of "good", perhaps, but I think it might qualify.
I think I missed something again. Do we actually know that Tavros was Killed Off for Real in tonight's Flash update?
Nope! I'm going to revert all those edits once the page is unlocked
It follows the Rules As We Know Them so far... which, of course, very little ELSE that happened in that flash did, so it's safe to say that we have no idea what Andrew is going to pull out on this one.
The timestamp on his reply to Terezi's memo on the destruction of Prospit places him at least fifteen minutes after Vriska wakes up. We can assume he's getting up.
Aha, I had been wondering why he took half an hour to fall - clearly there's a time jump between Vriska waking up at 3:14 and them fighting.
Putting the stats for Hivebent here, since the formspring got deleted:
98 days 635 pages 737 images 1 three minute flash animation 70,000 words
7.5 images per day 714 words per day
And while I'm at it, the now-broken links in case anyone wants to look them up with google cache or something:
Beyond the Impossible: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1093947328
Call-Back: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/898135176 and http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/550425816
Cerebus Syndrome: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1888161636 "relentlessly lighthearted"
Convection Schmonvection: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1778164158
Creation Myth: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1158290610
Screw the Rules I make them: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/550300327
Suddenly Voiced: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1419935459
Teasing Creator: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/898254629
Unwinnable by Design: http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1888006123
We should at least put quotes from those formsprings under the trope entries.
I have the questions archived in a .txt, but it's only text, so I can't search by URL.
The "relentlessly lighthearted" thing, on the other hand, I can search for:
"Homestuck started out pretty lighthearted! I suppose it would be dumb to ask if you intended for it to get darker later on, but is the level of darkness about what you envisioned? Was Cal originally the only intended survivor at this point in the story?
It's still lighthearted.
It is in fact relentlessly lighthearted, even in the midst of serious drama.
The villain is a FUCKING DOG WEARING SUNGLASSES."
If you ignore the fridge horror, tragedies, deaths, and outright meaning of Jack's existence, then yeah, it's pretty lighthearted.
The latest update shows Vriska talking to WV.
Does this count as a Wham Episode? This might qualify due to creating the previously unseen before possibilities of character interactions between the Exiles and Trolls, turning it into a new direction. However, it could be a minor twist, and nothing more.
We've already established that Vriska's got her hands in everything. So I wasn't terribly surprised by this "development", personally.
I'm starting to worry about this page.
It seems to me like it's so densely packed with in-jokes and pointless gimmicks that it must be nigh unreadable to someone who's not familiar with the series already.
Does anyone else get the feeling it could do with some cleaning up, or am I worrying over nothing?
What would anybody who's not familiar with the series be doing on this page in the first place?
Well, if you're like me, you discovered Homestuck through it's trope page. Tvtropes introduced me first to most webcomic I've read.
But I don't see a particularly dense collection of injokes or gimmicks. A lot of the citations seem pretty normal to me.
The actual description is pretty normal, though it could stand to mention a bit of what happens past act 1. It only starts getting in-jokey once it turns into an index, but remains readable. The subpage collection is odd but perfectly understandable. The tropes are a bit strange (and may confuse even readers of the comic), but is explained fairly well.
We should probably at this point make a mention that if people want to enjoy HS in it's entirety, they avoid reading through the page. There's plenty of unmarked spoilers - particularly Jack's ascension, which to us has become old news.
...In fact, anyone mind if I do that now?
That's good and all, but doesn't that make this page sort of a Wiki Walk dead end?
It basically does, yes, but would you rather cut someone's Wiki Walk short or have them Spoilered Rotten?
That should be their decision to make.
If newbie interpretation of the page is really an issue, we could try re-organizing the examples so that instead of being listed alphabetically, they're separated according to the kinds of tropes they are. Say-
...Of course, given that the page is at critical mass this would be a great deal of work, probably requiring the cooperation of several tropers. But it would solve the problem of poor newbie access to the examples, and just be more readable in general.
I'm all for reorganization, and you can count me in to help!
@ Soniclover: I never said that it wasn't their decision, but a warning helps things. At least then they no what they're getting into.
As far as reorganization... it'd take a lot of work... but if enough interest is drummed up... count me in.
May I suggest that the "Go back" links on the individual trope list pages be moved to the tops of the pages? It'd be more convenient that way; there's already a link back to the main page at the bottom, the index link, and no such link at the top.
Not all the sub-pages, just the ones in the Homestuck namespace.
You know, we don't actually know that John is dead. If it turns out that Noir's wound on him was a non-lethal one we'll have some serious back-pedaling to do. We remember how "I won't be coming back" went.
He has a gigantic hole in his chest. Unless some healing ability gets introduced into the comic, I don't see him surviving. The "I won't be coming back" thing was based off of a Pesterchum, where pretty much everything is suspect.
This is Homestuck. All bets are off.
Dead people get replaced by Dream Selves. Or turn out to be alternate doomed timelines. There's a lot that can happen from here. We KNOW he survives long enough to have his "first" conversation with Karkut, which hasn't happened yet.
Which just means his Dreamself is still around.
And is pretty happy, from the looks of it.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something saying that God Tier players can only be killed if their death is "just" or during an "honorable" battle? And since Noir stabbed him in the back...
I'm pretty sure the context to the above makes clear that the above discussion was after the pages of John being stabbed by Noir was posted, and before "[S] JOHN. RISE UP."
Just out of curiosity, where did the "SWITCH 1", "SWITCH 2", etc. terminology come from? I don't remember it from anywhere in Homestuck.
Whenever one of the characters used a terminal and switched what screen to watch. WV used it the first time we saw him, John when he was in the ectobiology lab, and maybe more I'm forgetting.
They are typed when an exile switches the view from one kid to another on a SBURB terminal.
John himself uses it extensively during his ectobiology session.
Edit: Whoops, ninja by 15 minutes. Should have refreshed...
Can someone pitch me a direct link to one of those pages? I'm too lazy to look it up.
Also Snowman used it to switch between Terezi and Vriska. But yeah, I was mostly thinking of the paradox clone sequence, which had a series of ">John: => SWITCH 2". (Good catch adding the letters after, by the way—I thought it would just be clear from mousing over, but this seems better.) It seemed like the best way to keep the command gag running on this page after splitting it.
I know there are a lot of tropes, but why bother with the separate pages? Didn't the folders do a good enough job of keeping the page short?
Homestuck was on the list, both Main and Characters.
Good to know. I've already made the main page into an index.
Re: Rose's contribution to the Wham Line entry.
It could arguably be a Wham Line to the readers who saw the line just as it got updated, I grant that - but to an archival reader, the one who reads the whole story from start to finish, the way a story is meant to be read (in Hussie's own on-forum words) - they're going to see "I won't be coming back," and then immediately see that she was just being dramatic.
I suppose you could liken it to cutting to commercial break in a TV show just as the villain shoots the hero from behind, only for the audience to see, once the show resumes, that the villain merely shot the nearby wall as a warning shot. It's good for a quick thrill, but lacks any longevity necessary for the "Wham".
So then it's a Pseudo Crisis?
Actually yeah. Pseudo Crisis fits pretty well.
About Anyone Can Die: I don't think the deaths of the trolls' and Jade's Dreamself and of the armies really count towards Anyone Can Die. The dreamself deaths aren't Killed Off for Real because those characters are still alive in some story; the black and white armies were Redshirt Armies, none of whom had names, dialogue, or basically any individuating characteristics; and we don't know exactly what happened to Aradia (or Feferi) yet. So we're still basically left with Bro and Davesprite (though again, Dave is still alive), and Maplehoof. Still fits better under Sacrificial Lion I think — it's about equivalent to the death of Obi-Wan.
...I'm not actually joking about Maplehoof. Isn't she the only playable character to have been Killed Off for Real?
Who would have to die for the trope to be applicable?
I'd say we'd need at least one kid or troll to die permanently. Preferably more.
"Die permanently". So no dreamself nonsense or alternate timelines or anything like that?
...Somehow I don't picture that happening.
Main characters, ostensibly.
Anyone Can Die refers to anyone up to and including main characters dying throughout the story, and the "throughout" is the important thing. We're nearly at the end of act 5 with the most important non villain deaths being Bro and Davesprite who are supporting characters (dreamselves and alternate future Daves don't count to this cause they're not really seperate characters until they have a chance to establish themselves as their own person like Davesprite did). In order to reach the point of Anyone Can Die the next two acts (if Andrew Hussie sticks to the 7 act total he suggested) would need to reach Kill ’Em All levels.
How about this.. AnyoneCanHalfDie? After all, oneor..two main characters and every troll has had half of themselves be killed.
Well, as of this posting, I think the Anyone Can Die has never been more justified. :|
Why was the Four-Temperament Ensemble removed? I'm sure whoever did it had a justification in the edit reason, but it's too far back for me to find now.
I didn't do it, but it doesn't seem like a great match for the kids. John and Jade both seem sanguine, Rose melancholic, Dave maybe phlegmatic — it'd require some real stretching to get Jade and Dave to the temperaments associated with their classical elements. Also, even if it fit it should probably go on the Kids' page.
EDIT: ...now, it kind of does make sense for the Midnight Crew. Clubs is sanguine, Slick choleric, Droog melancholic, Hearts phlegmatic. Well, maybe not that last one.
How is Dave phlegmatic? o_O Phlegmatics are quiet and inoffensive — that's practically their defining trait. Dave is arrogant and generally does whatever he feels like. That's a mark of a choleric, not phlegmatic. As for John being sanguine, yes, he can definitely be read that way, but I've heard that common portrayals of him in fandom are as the "quiet, ordinary guy". Another important trait of phlegmatics is that they seem "ordinary" — they tend to try and fit in rather than stand out from the crowd. John is undeniably the most "ordinary" of the kids, and most of the fanfic I've read seems to portray him that way.
I suppose at one point it just gets into a debate about interpretations of the characters though, which is kind of pointless...
P.S. Yeah, Hearts is a second choleric, which throws a spanner into the entire pattern with the Midnight Crew. :( Pity, that would have been good to add if everything fit.
Well, like you said it's a debate about interpretation of the characters, which is too pointless for the main page, but I thought "Exhibits optimism, good cheer, a love of fun, enthusiasm" described John better than "calm, stoic, reliable, compassionate, observant"; hence sanguine rather than phlegmatic. In the comic as opposed to fandom, I wouldn't describe him as quiet; he's the prankster who uses a lot of exclamation points (well not as many as Jade). Dave seems more stoic and doesn't strive for leadership, which is why I had him as phlegmatic rather than choleric, but eh.
Anyway, it seems like it takes some shoving to turn the kids into the four temperaments, and they really don't match their associated classical elements — Jade is earth, which would be melancholic, which seems pretty much the opposite of true.
For what it's worth, whoever wrote up Homestuck on the Four-Temperament Ensemble page had your take on the kids and my take on the Midnight Crew.
Okay, I don't want to start an edit war here, but why the hell would Vriska stating that she plans to kill Bec Noir be a wham? She all but said as much in her conversation with Aradia in Alterniabound, it'd be obvious from her personality that she wanted to do so if even if she hadn't said as much, and the fact that this is a story in the first place makes it pretty likely that the villain is going to get killed, implying at least one person trying.
Isn't Auspistice the ultimate justification for O T3s?
Unless you're prepared to explain what you mean. They're really not the same thing at all.
No, it isn't; Auspisticism actually serves to prevent the trolls in question from becoming a (caliginous) couple. See here for details.
The Wham Episode entry is mushrooming again — I vaguely remember that it got trimmed down to a line or two because there were too many episodes being listed, but now people are adding new ones. Do we want to keep it as it is, trim it back to the original line, or maybe start a Wham Episode page?
I was actually just about the ask the same thing, except I was going to recommend a HSQ page, because I think we're not going to be seeing an upper limit to that anytime soon...
But yes, that. There are some events in Homestuck that can't be categorized as awesome, heartwarming, tearjerker, whatever but are still those moments where you go "OMG$#+_$)KF#$_)K#$)K?!?!?!" that really need their own page lest the main page get so long with examples.
I vote for starting a Wham Episode page XD Although, come to think of it, this might be unprecedented. I don't think I've come across any other series with their own Wham Episode page. That would be pretty sweet if it really was the first.
I'm gonna make one then. We can divide it by Acts, since otherwise it would probably get waaaaay too ridiculous.
BUNP: and there you go. Added it to related pages.
wasn't it said somewhere that the trolls use a translator an are not in fact talking english
Until and unless we find some proof, no action should be taken regarding the wiki page based on that claim.
I don't think it's ever been explicitly stated they use a translator, but there is a separate language: "It should be noted that in troll language, the word for friend is exactly the same as the word for enemy."
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003891 is this enough? Olso the translator part may just be some Wordof God and formspring is unsearshable
Word of god is that they actually are speaking English, despite also having their own language.
Well LINK to it then so we can all see it. or is this from memory only?
Yes, I am pretty sure it's lost somewhere in the many many MSPA General Chat threads that have gone by since the start of Hivebent.
He also said that, in a universe that has a Troll Adam Sandler, Trolls speaking English is perhaps the least difficult thing to believe.
Loyal 2 NES do you think that every time there is a alien race in a story the creator is using Art Major Biology or that the creator fails biology forever? Homestuck does have Art Major Biology but only when HUMANS do impossible things like split a meteor in half with a sword.
And besides some of that stuff i edited out is already under Bizarre Alien Biology. Alien Blood is already there and the links to Homestucks Bizarre Alien Reproduction explain the dominace/recessivity. Plus I dont think trolls having black lips is any stranger than people having black skin.
There's stuff on the Art Major Biology page about spiders. Did spiders suddenly become human when I wasn't looking?
Lips typically have a preponderance of blood vessels near the surface — it's why they're usually reddish and why when someone's body temperature starts to go down their lips start to turn blue.
The fact that existing terminology (dominant and recessive genes) with existing connotations is used makes this very much Art Major Biology.
Ok i should have said that it doesn't apply to aliens instead of saying it applies only to humans.
And why would aliens have blood vessels near the surface of the skin on their lips? Aliens having totally different lips than mammals from earth sounds normal to me.
Just because Andrew uses the words dominant and recessive while describing Bizarre Alien Biology doesn't mean that artistic lisence was taken regarding known biological facts.
Biological aliens usually have biology. Biological biology. The trope isn't called Art Major Earth Biology.
If by "near the surface of their lips" you mean "near the surface of the skin"... We've seen numerous troll characters blush. Lip skin is much thinner than the rest of the skin on the face, regardless of pigmentation. Considering how the trolls have been treated in the story so far, it is no small leap to assume that troll lips have a structure that differs wildly from human lips when they serve approximately the same apparent function and none of the trolls have been shown to have lip-related speech impediments.
Yes it fucking does.
Many mammals DO have darkly coloured lips—dogs, for example—and the reason we don't is simply because primates lost it somewhere along the evolution line. We might not have lost it for any particular reason either, it's just the way the cookie crumbled, or the protoprimates just decided non-pigmented lips were sexier. It is perfectly plausible that an alien species resembling humans could have naturally black lips, even if humans themselves never do. The skin around their eyes is darker than the rest of their face so it stands to reason that they have dark pigmentation wherever there is thin skin—nose, ears, elbows, knees, etc. It would have been a cute detail ):
The reason they have them though is because they needed to or blood anonymity wouldn't have been possible. One glance at Karkat would have told everyone his blood was an unusual shade of red. (Unless he wore lipstick to cover it up I guess, but then there's the problem of obtaining lipstick without anyone seeing his face. Could have been played for comedy, but oh well.)
It's Art Major Biology if the biology isn't plausible and the creator didn't give a fuck about that because they thought it was necessary, and added it in anyway. Black lips fills only the second. I am not sure if the dominant-recessive genes thing should really be called Art Major Biology either because it definitely IS a fuckup but it wasn't a necessary inclusion and didn't add much, if anything, to the story. I am also not so sure if he knew it wasn't right and didn't care, or if he thought maybe it was right but didn't care enough to fact check. Adding a simple bio mistake to Art Major Biology feels like Trope Decay.
If that description of dominance was used for eny known lifeform I would agree. That is nothing like genetic dominanse in real life, true.
BUT the page talks about trolls exclusivly, are you expecting the biology on Alternia to be completly the same as ours?
How can you take artistic lisence regarding a fictional thing?
(and thanks for the grammar ifx)
Yes, actually. Physiology might be wildly different, but chemistry is chemistry is chemistry. They have DNA, genes, alleles, genetic recombination. The fact that there is anything to call dominant or recessive suggests that they have homologous pairs (or triplets, or whatever) of chromosomes, and that they didn't always use the bucket system for sexual reproduction. What goes on in the nuclei of their cells would be very similar to what goes on in ours.
Dominant alleles can be just as harmful and maladaptive as recessive alleles. The reason why we see less dominant genetic diseases than recessive ones is because people with them usually don't survive to reproductive age to pass them on (the ones we do have, like Huntington's chorea, stay on because they hit later in life), while recessive alleles can be passed down clandestinely for generations because carriers of the defective gene don't really show any symptoms. This is an immutable fact I am stating for the record. You don't want to be rid of as many recessive variations as possible, it's a bad idea.
Misusing terminology isn't artistic license.
I dont see why the trolls can't have recessive and dominant genes like humans do and still have the genes from the more emotional relatonships be better represented in the brood. Different definitions(from the biological ones) of the words recessive and dominant are used to describe this.
This means that terminology misusing is not what is taking place here.
(from http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004296 )
I believe that Dave's leitmotif should be changed from Beatdown (which sounds more like his battle music) to Upward Movement. Agreed?
Agreed. F'rinstance, Upward Movement is quoted in "Descend" for Dave's part at the beginning, while I think we've only heard "Beatdown" in Dave's strife scenes.
EDIT: Ah no, wait, Andrew says:
"Just to be clear, what is the leitmotif for Dave Strider? Upward Movement or Beatdown?
I'm not sure that either qualifies. The whole leitmotif thing got pretty blurry after a while, the more songs I piled on."
So nuke 'em all, I guess.
The scary thing is, I asked that question.
TROLL SERENDIPITY means that there probably won't be enything like what is described on Tenchi Solution in homestuck, right?
The name of Act 5 Part 2 is named Homestuck. Does that count as a Title Drop, or is it a different trope if it's just the name of a chapter (and not even the penultimate one!)
It's not the name of the chapter. It's signifying the switch from Hivebent back to Homestuck.
Also, it's the name of the music that plays during that animation.
Regarding the Psychic Powers line and sub-lines: isn't this just a mass of stuff that should be on the Character Sheet instead? Or am I mistaken?
Regarding the edit war about the links to the Crowning Moment pages: "Fondly regard <something that sounds like Creation>" is an established running gag in MS Paint Adventures, so it doesn't really matter that two pages take a similar title. It'd be better just to leave them as is.
What trope does Snowman getting the two girls to destroy her prototyping ring so that Jack doesn't get it like he does in the other session qualify as? I mean it's Snowman asking someone to do something, so that's ominous. But it turns out that it prevents something really bad from happening, that happens anyway. It's like when a trope isn't averted or subverted... it's just kinda... huh.
Sounds like a double subversion to me, but I'm not sure if a trope exists yet. I can think of examples of a "hero does a quest for someone who is later revealed as an antagonist" trope in a whole bunch of different stories—am I just missing something, or is a YKTTW in order?
When you describe it that way, I think I've already seen a YKTTW like that.
I have created separate pages for Shout-Out (ShoutOut.Homestuck) and Music (Music.Homestuck).
The former because there were simply way too many of them, and the latter because it's useful to point Music Tropes towards the Music page and not the page proper.
Good to know. Just don't forget to make the syntax of the beginning and ending match up with the other pages.
Should we add a comment warning against the use of "recent" as in "the recent update"? I just edited a few of those — the problem is that soon the update isn't recent anymore. (The remaining "recent"s are OK, though; "more recently" doesn't get stale, and using it in an in-universe sense is also all right.)
Yeah, that's a good idea. How would we phrase it?
I took a shot — feel free to rephrase it.
"Monster Lord is someone who is more powerful than and rules over a race of mooks or other worthless underlings. I get the feeling this was probably added immediately after reading "blue blood" in the first sentence of Monster Lord."
Nonnie, I gave my reason for adding that trope back in, and it had nothing to do with blood color, so stow the snark.
The Monster Lord article includes a provision for races whose highest castes are physiologically different from the lower castes, which is pretty obviously the case with the two highest two Troll castes which Eridan and Feferi represent. The "mooks" provision does not appear to be a necessary component.
If anyone wants to offer a more cogent reason to exclude this trope than anon did, please speak up.
Is the echeladder an element of Sburb, or is it a videogamey part of the 'normal' world, like the capchatalogue cards? It might explain why all the guardians are so strong. maybe stuff like that is normal for adults in this world.
We don't know.
I'm thinking the latter, though admittedly there doesn't seem to be any evidence either way.
We aren't completely sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say element of Sburb. John climbs the echeladder through his ectobiology session, and climbing it rewards you with Boondollars, the currency of the incipisphere.
In any case, it can be safely assumed that the reason the guardians are as strong as they are is not level grinding. Or at least not normal, mundane level grinding.
For gods sake people, there's been no confirmation that Aradia killed Vriska!
Considering that that current Vriska is her dream self, I think it is very likely Aradia did kill her.
There's no proof of that in that image. :/
She has her dreamself's glasses and vision eightfold. I suppose it's not strictly necessary for her main self to be dead for the dreamself to be acting as the main self, but I'm not sure why Andrew would put in something like that if he didn't intend it to be read as Vriska getting killed.
I see no adequate reason to suppose that Vriska did not get killed at some point. It's not strictly proven that her death was at the hands of Aradia, but given that the Trolls' story seems to be winding down at this point rather than going back to fill in details, that seems to be the assumption we're expected to make.
Since there's no possible Word of God on this, the Homestuck Wiki says that she's beated near to death, not killed.
I may have missed it, but why were Eridian and Sollux having a Beam O War in [S] Make her pay? Fighting over Feferi, maybe? And should it get listed?
Probably fighting over Feferi, but it hasn't yet been said for certain. But there's no ambiguity over the fact that it was a Beam-O-War, so yes.
Probably that, based on the battle over literal blood rank.
Can we get a professional verdict regarding whether or not the Unwinnable by Design trope belongs on this page? The ongoing Edit War is rapidly losing its entertainment now.
Current belief in the Unwinnable section is that the Bad Future of Homestuck is an Unwinnable by Mistake situation.
People give the benefit of the doubt to designers of modern games, esp. if they aren't Interactive Fiction. If you are allowed to continue playing and "saving" after a item or character needed to reach a standard ending is Lost Forever or given Final Death respectively, that is considered an oversight by the designers rather than their deliberate choice unless there is clear evidence or Word of God to the contrary.
You can imagine what that means for the Unwinnable by Mistake page. Many of the examples currently there could either be secretly By Design or openly Game Breaking Bugs. But I recommend that the listing here match the listing there for now and be By Mistake rather than By Design.
Any player dying makes it victory unachievable. That alone would qualify as Unwinnable by Design.
There are two things that can make the game unwinnable: either someone dies permenantly, or skaia is destroyed. Even then, there's a chance to fix both of those through time shenanigans. Both fairly obvious failure conditions, so at best, the trope could qualify solely on the fact that the game doesn't kill you or kick you out when either of those things happens.
Anyway, this whole paragraph is wrong.
-"SkaiaNet's invocation of this trope would make Sierra jealous."
Skaianet probably didn't design the game, just adapted it. And why do we need to exaggerate everything.
-"The smallest mistake in Sburb can, and most likely will if Karkat is to be believed about all those null games, come back to bite you in the ass later on."
Karkat was talking about sessions where people lost because of the difficulty of the game. He never once implied Unwinnable by Design.
-"It seems like even if you manage to do everything right and actually win, you still die anyway if someone else's botched session starts to mess with yours."
Only applies to the trolls so far as we know, and that falls under Unwinnable by Mistake.
-"Even worse, the future is immutable according to the trolls, so not even time travel shenanigans can prevent your untimely deaths. Whether they're right is yet to be seen."
I don't know where this is from, the deaths of John and Jade (and Dave, accidentally) have all been fixed by time travel shenanigans.
If an unwinnable state can be fixed by time traveling back before the state was unwinnable and doing something different, it's still an unwinnable state. The time travel took you to before you were in an unwinnable state. That's like saying (most) computer games can't be put in unwinnable states, because you can always restore a previous save. We don't even know whether Dave's time-travel abilities comes from something that was made available through Sburb or something that existed independently in the Homestuck universe.
Not to mention that it's explicitly said (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003988) that it's necessary to prototype the kernelsprite once pre-entry, so it presumably is canonically possible to make the game unwinnable by breaking your first cruxite item before Tier 1 prototyping. John starts getting cruxite dowels before Rose prototypes the Kernelsprite, so this should be possible.
"Skaianet probably didn't design the game, just adapted it. And why do we need to exaggerate everything."
It's got Skaianet's name on it, doesn't it?
"Karkat was talking about sessions where people lost because of the difficulty of the game. He never once implied Unwinnable By Design."
Doesn't actually contradict the original sentence. Karkat has said that there are a lot of null games. If in fact the game can be made unwinnable by design, it's fair to conclude that this happens because it's easy to make it unwinnable. The sentence didn't say that Karkat said that it was unwinnable by design.
"Only applies to the trolls so far as we know, and that falls under Unwinnable By Mistake."
Unless you're Andrew Hussie, you don't know what it falls under. Even if you're Andrew Hussie, you probably don't know what it falls under. —Which means it shouldn't be in here, but it's a bit rich for you to assert your theory as fact, after deleting about half the page because other people were asserting their theories as facts.
On your last point, the original should read "can prevent the kids' untimely deaths" (and I think the trolls are probably wrong — isn't the point of the Rift that they can't see into it?)
Overall, you could have made this a lot more pleasant by providing clearer reasons for your edits. Go back and read the comment on your edit for deleting Sonic Lover's restoration of this entry; how were we supposed to figure out your reasoning from that? I found that frankly disrespectful.
Anonymous Mc Cartney Fan: It makes sense to give the benefit of the doubt to the designers of modern games, but does that really apply to Sburb?
Also, I assume it's safe to restore Nintendo Hard? That's surely something that follows from Karkat's comments about the null sessions, not to mention all the previous walkthrough authors dying before entering the Medium.
-"If an unwinnable state can be fixed by time traveling back before the state was unwinnable and doing something different, it's still an unwinnable state. The time travel took you to before you were in an unwinnable state. That's like saying (most) computer games can't be put in unwinnable states, because you can always restore a previous save."
"Restoring a previous save"=/="Game that includes time travel". Time shenanigans are Dave's role in the game. It's even in his title. It's not an unwinnable state precisely because he can travel back and fix it.
-"We don't even know whether Dave's time-travel abilities comes from something that was made available through Sburb or something that existed independently in the Homestuck universe."
What are you talking about? Of course it came from Sburb. His role was assigned by Sburb, his timetables came from Sburb, this is not really ambiguous.
-"It's got Skaianet's name on it, doesn't it?"
Nope. Skaianet is the company that developed it from hieroglyphs in the frog temple, like Sollux was able to do.
-"Doesn't actually contradict the original sentence."
...no? But there is zero support for it whatsoever.
-"Karkat has said that there are a lot of null games. If in fact the game can be made unwinnable by design, it's fair to conclude that this happens because it's easy to make it unwinnable."
Sounds like you're saying "because it can be made unwinnable, then it must be made unwinnable all the time".
I hope that is not what you're saying.
-"The sentence didn't say that Karkat said that it was unwinnable by design."
"The smallest mistake in Sburb can, and most likely will if Karkat is to be believed about all those null games, come back to bite you in the ass later on."
"Unless you're Andrew Hussie, you don't know what it falls under. Even if you're Andrew Hussie, you probably don't know what it falls under. —Which means it shouldn't be in here, but it's a bit rich for you to assert your theory as fact, after deleting about half the page because other people were asserting their theories as facts."
I don't understand why you're so determined to put this trope on the page.
It's referred to as breaking the game several times. I'm just assuming it's exactly what the comic says it is based on the only information we have on it. What you're saying is that we aren't completely sure... and so we should assume Unwinnable by Design? Sounds like WMG to me.
"Overall, you could have made this a lot more pleasant by providing clearer reasons for your edits. Go back and read the comment on your edit for deleting Sonic Lover's restoration of this entry; how were we supposed to figure out your reasoning from that? I found that frankly disrespectful."
I'm not going to type out an essay every time I fix something, especially given how this page accumulates fanon so quickly. I assumed he misunderstood the trope and put that in the edit summary.
There's a lot of room between typing an essay every time you make an edit and reverting with no explanation beyond "No you misunderstood the trope." You edit as if you're in sole possession of the truth and don't need to explain yourself. Even if that were true, it doesn't make for a functional wiki.
"What are you talking about? Of course it came from Sburb. His role was assigned by Sburb, his timetables came from Sburb, this is not really ambiguous."
Well, we didn't see where it came from — Future Dave just showed up with it, and I wouldn't make assumptions about the origins of his swag. But it has a good chance of being Sburban. Raises the question why Aradia hasn't used hers to undo the Bad Future, but maybe they don't know how.
"Skaianet is the company that developed it from hieroglyphs in the frog temple...."
...um, sure? That was what I was saying, as to why you would talk about Skaia Net in that sentence? No big deal, though.
"Sounds like you're saying 'because it can be made unwinnable, then it must be made unwinnable all the time'.
"I hope that is not what you're saying."
"I don't understand why you're so determined to put this trope on the page."
Well, as I said there's one canonical example, which is a lot more directly in the text than most of the stuff you're citing. Probably the best approach is to put that in as an example, and to say that the other unwinnable states may be due to bugs. (Which was actually what I was saying in the sentence you're complaining about. I don't think asserting WM Gs as facts is a good idea, whether they're your WM Gs or someone else's.) But it's not really a big deal — it's just a wiki about a webcomic, and if you feel very strongly that it should be a certain way, fine.
Just be respectful of the effort other people put into it. Part of that includes explaining yourself when you're asked.
the trolls won they just didn't get the reward. totally winnable
This comic isn't on Better Than It Sounds.
Wait, never mind. It's there, it's just a sub-heading under MS Paint Adventures. Should've thought of that.
Wait, where was it stated that the trolls are paradox clones?
Uhm, all Sburb players are?
Ah. I sort of suspect it's going to be more complicated than the kids version, though, what with them having a matriorb around.
Probably, but it's been confirmed that(confusing reproduction notwithstanding), all players who enter Sburb are actually Paradox Clones of themselves/their guardian figures (Lusii for the Trolls, and Guardians for the kids)
I don't think the trolls have Lusus DNA in them.
They're... they're kind of not troll-like at all.
They have the same blood color, however.
Yes, but you can't add a Lusus + a Lusus and get a Troll. (That's how it worked with the kids, remember? Guardian + Guardian = kid.)
I think everyone has the same blood colour as their lusus. Your blood colour narrows down the kinds of lusus that will choose you in the caverns, or lusus blood changes colour to match yours, or something like that.
It's more likely that the trolls are straight clones of each other, or six trolls are technical descendants of the other six.
I still think it's possible that there are adult trolls that they could be paradox clones of. For instance, we know of exactly one other troll that shares Feferi's blood color— the Empress— so who's to say that Feferi wasn't cloned from her (plus someone else, most likely)?
If you look at the way the cloning happened with the Kids, it seemed to crudely imitate the way that reproduction works in humans. I see no reason this won't apply to the Trolls as well. With twelve adult trolls, there could be six "matesprit" pairings and six "kismesis" pairings (or, as mentioned above, crude imitations thereof), and that would be enough to produce all twelve trolls.
If you think back to when Karkat talked about it with John, he specifically referenced how complex Troll family dynamics were when he declined to elaborate on the exact process. This tells me that Troll family dynamics (and, therefore, characters other than our 12 main trolls) are involved in the process. Most likely in the same way that human family dynamics were involved in John's process (i.e. that there were identifiable human "parents" that produced each of the kids).
I don't know what's going on or how to fix it, but the button for the heartwarming moments page (in the row of buttons at the top) is misdirected.
And now it's fixed! Thanks 220.127.116.11 or whoever did it!
Props to Unknown Troper 18.104.22.168 for doing an Alphabetical sorting. Fits with how the page has been made so far plus makes it easier, especially since the page, while not being the mess, mimics the webcomic itself - very, very long.
There are no references, implied or explicit, to ICP in this comic.
Yes there is, look at the sky in the first panel.
There is also the fact that Andrew said it on his Twitter.
Sorry to crush your dreams, guy, but Gamzee is a Juggalo. Them's the breaks.
Agreed. Between the facepaint, the Faygo, and the Word of God, it's pretty obvious that he's a Juggalo.
Not to mention, read his intro again. One of the wordy interests he has is clearly ICP. Sorry, dude, absolute proof.
Incorrect. No references to ICP in the comic.
The reasons have been given for why there are—up to and including Word of God, and their faces appearing in the comic. I don't see how this could be argued, which I suspect is why there is no attempt at rebuttal.
Also, I'm pretty sure someone (I think Karkat, but am not positive) quotes the "Miracles" song when describing Gamezee
"MAGIC EVERYWHERE IN THIS BITCH" is I believe the line. And yeah, it was Karkat.
Sorry bro! Better luck next time.
Don't forget Dave giving his name as "Shaggy 2 Dope."
Before I edit the But What About the Astronauts? entry, did the Vast Glub ever actually occur?
It did. Sollux was killed by it because Karkat didn't get him into the Medium in time.
Thanks. I didn't want to start an Edit War by accident.
Yeah, that really could start a war. After all, the troll's race has been ended at some point, but on the other hand, the only direct reference to it was, "you couldn't get him in before the glub," and the Vast version isn't necessary to kill any one troll regardless of status.
Do we really need the Hivebent redirect? It doesn't seem like it's necessary.
If someone's linked to it, it's necessary.
It does not appear to have been linked to. I'm going to go ahead and cutlist it.
I think I linked to it from the forum and that's all. We can have it cut.
Re the Unfortunate Implications entry: it's a bit of a stretch to say they're caricatures of Asians just because they have buck teeth—they don't have squinted eyes or exaggerated/wrinkly foreheads. Just buck teeth. As for the only same-sex morallegiance having Les Yay: even if it's not a reproductive one, it is a romantic relationship. Also, Kanaya wants more than morallegiance with Vriska. Anyway, on top of that, they're aliens. I have no idea how that's unfortunate at all. So I'm just going to cull that entirely.
(Incidentally, though not really related to the above, the Word of God cited is probably some sort of ass covering, since John calls Dave white at least once.)
Buck teeth, glasses, and John sports a shirt of a Japanese slimer ripoff. And, like you said, calls Dave white (indicating ether John himself isn't that race, or was saying it ironically which is more Dave's turf than John's).
When I think buck teeth and glasses I think "nerd" more than Asian. I'd think the fact that he felt "Japanese store" was worth specifying would indicate it was something exceptional. And the reason he called Dave white was because Dave was trying to be gangsta, as he so often does.
But whether or not he's Asian, he would need a lot more traits to be a caricature.
Should the second hottipped quote be moved to Call Backs? (Still as a hot tip.) It basically seems to explain his method in terms of continuous callbacks. Or perhaps we could include a note in the Call Backs entry to consult that quote?
That could be a good idea (the first one).
OK, done. I hadn't realized that the hottip was actually the continuation of the quote that was already in Call Backs, so I think it works particularly well there.
I'd like to propose adding a "soft rule" for the Homestuck pages, prior to the example lists. Due to the rapidly-updating nature of the comic, as well as Hussie's writing style, it'd probably be best if people refrained from adding examples regarding story elements that plainly have yet to be resolved, until they have been resolved for the foreseeable future. For instance, we should probably refrain from adding examples regarding Vriska kissing Tavros until the focus shifts away from that event, and possibly avoid making absolute statements about Karkat's blood color until we get confirmation about just what that blood color actually means. Things like that.
Sounds like a good idea, but I'm not really sure how we'd enforce it.
We can't, but we can put a comment in at the top like we did for "ADD CHARACTER TROPES TO THE CHARACTER PAGE." Not everyone will read and listen to it, but it might help.
I'd also like to do something about spoilers since some of us are pretty spoiler-happy, especially when it comes to editing the character page, and blank out huge chunks of examples or the trope name itself every time there's an update. A lot of times I just don't think it's necessary, especially when there's a warning about unmarked spoilers at the beginning, and it makes the page ugly and irritating to read besides. If there were no roving cleaners around here half the page would be covered.
Wondering where this should go, if anywhere:
The trolls' blood caste system spans the entire spectrum of colour. The lowest we've seen is Aradia's red-orange, and the highest is cC's maroon. This would mean that Karkat's mutant candy-red blood is exactly at the turning point of the colour wheel. He's either the absolute lowest or the absolute highest. I'm just not sure what to call this.
Whatever you call it, make sure it goes on the characters page and not here.
I'm considering adding the "Walt Whitman" quote from Act 1 to the top of this page, but do we really need more than one quote?
I don't think there's room up there for both quotes. We could add a quotes page.
Nah, that's probably not a good idea.
I can only imagine it would get filled up at a preposterous rate.
Like every other Homestuck-related page?
Did we really need the "So what's the idea" quote? I can't really understand why it's there.
It's not really needed but I kind of like it. And it sums up what Homestuck is rather well.
I didn't put it there I'm just saying.
Someone remind me of why we're trying to cut corners regarding this page's length? I've seen much longer.
Yeah, getting rid of the bullet points on some of the tropes (Fridge Horror, Shout Out, Stealth Pun, etc.) make those sections look really ugly. Thought the point of bullets were to separate different topics on each.
I agree. Bullet points are easier to read than gigantic blocks of text.
I just went back and re-bulleted the Shout-Out section.
Adjusted a few more bullets; Fridge Horror, Improbably Weapon User, Kitsch Collection, Nice Job Fixing It Villain, Oh Crap, Running Gag, Stable Time Loop, Stealth Pun.
Speaking of Running Gags, shouldn't they have their own su8page?
Three months late, but yeah, there should be some sub-page for all the Call Backs throughout Homestuck. I started one for Continuity Nod, but I'm not sure it's the best fit + it's a little vague when something stops being just a Nod.
Just a note — I spoilered White Text's name back when we were calling him "White Text," both because it was something of the spoiler that the trolls were talking to a white text guy, and also because, you know, it made it appear in white text. Then it stayed in a spoiler when it got changed to "Doc Scratch." I agree that there's no point in spoilering Doc Scratch's name now, since it's meaningless if you don't know who he is.
I'm not really understanding why the Ensemble Dark Horse entry includes winnie_the_poop when it excludes Secret Wizard and Crumplehat— I have never heard anyone talk about the former outside of this entry, and the latter two were extremely popular for their non-existent role in the story. I thought I'd ask anyway because it appears someone actively deleted them from the entry for whatever reason.
I was condensing the entry so it wasn't six lines long. Welp, now it's six lines long. Never mind, I guess.
Yeah, I know why you did it, I read your edit reason. I was just confused at your choice of who to include and who to exclude.
Huh? Secret Wizard and Crumplehat are still there. As far as the edit history goes, they've never been deleted. Weird.
Anyway I've never heard winnie the poop 2 talked about either. He seems to be known by a few people who think the name is funny, but he's never had any speculation to his name about what he might be like, no fanart, no fanfiction, nothing. Not really enough to be considered an Ensemble Dark Horse, so he's... not there anymore. Feel free to argue and post it back up if you disagree though. Just hopefully in a more concise manner than what it was originally.
...Weird, I could have sworn they had been taken out (and subsequently put back in). I may have misread the change log at some point. Oh well, it's not a big deal.
Guy who did the initial winnie the poop entry here: TBH, I haven't seen a lot of people talking about him either. I vaguely recall some amount of "I hope winnie the poop is alright!" posts mixed in the recent updates and discussion threads, which I suppose doesn't seem like nearly as much disregarding the miniscule size of his "part." I'm quite alright if you guys keep him gone.
Cutting down the Wham Episodes is a good idea, but which do we want to keep? I thought the End of Act 1 finale was a bigger Wham than the first sighting of the asteroid — I really did say to myself, "Oh my god did our hero just die?" And the asteroid example was slightly undercut by John high-fiving the sprite two pages later.
OK, I'm putting it back in.
I'm trying to get Homestuck to qualify for inclusion on the Trope Overdosed page, but it hasn't even hit 500 links on the Related To page yet. I managed to get it past 444, though.
Yeah, pretty much same here. Follow outbound links and place HS examples on other pages, then vice versa; repeat as necessary. Hope we don't look too much like one-topic Entry Pimpers.
We're up to 755! We've broken the three-quarters mark! Let's keep at it!
All right, this is just idle curiosity that we'll probably never see explored, but what would happen if someone dualboxed a Sburb session so he or she was both user and client?
Aside from likely dying from meteor impact/imp trying to edit the world AND complete all the necessary tasks.
That sort of speculation... would actually make a great MSPAFA.
Hah. Now if only I could actually draw it...
Hey Ninjacrat, could you provide links to where you moved everything? I think we found most of it, but I can't find the Fridge Brilliance section and was hoping it hadn't evaporated into thin air.
I think they were just deleted. I searched the wiki and found nothing.
OK, PSA: Please don't delete huge chunks of the page without warning. It's common courtesy to bring your issues with it into a discussion topic first. If you're moving it to a subpage please make that clear in your edit reason.
And leave an edit reason.
I smell an edit war. Someone get Ninjacrat over here please? Before we start having excessive fighting over what to cut and what not to cut? (Honestly, I stay away from Wikipedia for this very reason.)
Great big screen-obliterating spoiler blocks are bad. Shoehorned tropes are bad. Spoilerblocking the name of the trope you're describing is bad and also dumb.
Basically this page has been a clusterfuck for a while now, and it's my fault for not having a go at it sooner.
Several tropes were spoilerblocked because they're spoilers by merit of their existence and inclusion. I'll cut Anyone Can Die down to major characters (Loads and Loads of Characters notwithstanding), but there's no point not having it there. It applies, does it not?
@Luzeme My edit reason read, verbatim: "moving stuff to namespace pages, spoilertag purge." Was that not clear enough?
@orngjce223: Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?
No, the closest thing to a main character death was the death of the dream version of the main character in question. Okay, BQ and BK and HB and Col. Sassacre don't need to be on there, but arguably the Bad Future belongs there. As does Dead Paradox Time Travel Dave Before Being Thrown Out The Window.
Anyone Can Die describes war stories, horror movies and other works where protagonist life is cheap. It doesn't describe a light-hearted adventure story where the closest thing to a main character death was... the Black Queen? Who was a villain?
Did you even READ the text you deleted? Three of the main characters died in alternate timelines, and Jade's dream self died in the main timeline! If those don't count as main character deaths, then I'm a bottle of scented cologne!
*dabs SonicLover behind the ears*
Anyone Can Die isn't killing characters in alternate universes or killing characters in dreams. Anyone Can Die is killing characters so that they are dead.
You can't have Anyone Can Die if nobody (but a few villains and backstory characters) has died.
Yeah there are too many spoiler tags on this page probably. They get put on and don't get removed. That doesn't mean you should delete the text with them.
Also there is nothing on this wiki that says you can't have Fridge Brilliance examples on the work page that I can see. Fridge Brilliance/Webcomics is the trope page split into bits because it got too long. Many times a trope appears on a work page and the work is used as an example on the trope page. This is not wrong.
My main beef is that you didn't bother to come here and discuss purges first. Edit wars are not cool. The discussion page prevents them from happening.
Let's look at what's going on for a second.
There is the "we should have deleted them" camp, which consists of ninjacrat.
There is the "no we shouldn't have/we should have at least discussed it first" camp, which consists of pretty much everybody else that gives a shit.
I think it is fairly reasonable to say, simply due to near-consensus, "god dammit, ninjapadcrat."
I've added them back, with some updates. Nobody delete them again without discussion.
Dude. Creating so much melodrama over two examples from a single solitary page is ridiculous. Creating this much melodrama over two patently shitty examples is beyond ridiculous.
Anyone Can Die is still a complete nonexample — and still has the trope name spoilered out! Fridge Brilliance is still half natter and still belongs on the Fridge Brilliance page, where people can sign their observations. This isn't code for anything; they're just not good.
Honestly, the point of spoilering out Anyone Can Die is because that, in itself, is a major plot twist and thus, the mere reveal that multiple people can and do die in the series is spoiler enough that it should be hidden.
And everyone, STOP EDITING THE TROPE PAGE FOR THE SAKE OF THESE THINGS UNTIL WE HAVE ABSOLUTE CONSENSUS.
Anyone Can Die is vague, though—you'll know that at least two important people die sometime along the line, but you don't know who. And given a cast the size of Homestuck and their situation, "there are some dudes in this story who kick the bucket" is not really a huge deal. I skimmed through examples of the trope that have it listed on their own pages, and none of them have it spoilered out.
And Sweet Madness' compromise edit seems good enough to me; the majority of people want Anyone Can Die to stay, so it stays, case closed (spoilered or unspoilered). Same with Fridge Brilliance.
Okay, good enough then.
Mispost. Ignore this.
The problem with discussing stuff on the discussion page is that there's no way (With the sole exception of bookmarking) to keep up on the recentcrap and barely anyone visits the page, and if something shouldn't be somewhere, like page long spoilers, should just be removed. If you have a way of explaining something in three short words, then use three short words instead of three long paragraphs that equally convey those three short words.
Anyone Can Die does refer to the fact that it's realistically possible for the characters to die and not come back, like at the part where Jack found Jade sleeping. He could have killed her but didn't.
Since when are the Monarchs's crowns Artifacts Of Doom? If I assume correctly, they are purely symbols of office (we've seen quite plainly that the rings and scepters are the big guns) that Jack had PM acquire with the assumption she'd kill to get them; he did give her a regisword for the job, after all. Now he could very well think all the Monarchs are dead (having killed two of them himself). The crowns are just proof that the White Monarchs are out of the way, aren't they?
Based on what information we have, there's no reason to believe they're anything other than crowns. Their primary significance is the fact that Jack assumes PM would have to kill the King and Queen in order to obtain them, hence the "hit list".
Thought so. Removed the "PM gave the doom-crowns to Jack what was she thinking" bit from the Oh, Crap! entry.
Hmm. Not sure what trope it would fit under, but I found carcinoGenetecist's comment about how the universe(s) is/are filling up with dead, empty incipispheres to be pretty dark. I mean, planets are ending, and ALL life on entire planets are ending, and kids everywhere are going on hopeless and desperate quests that get them all killed, and none of them are succeeding. That's pretty horrible. Tear Jerker? Maybe Crosses the Line Twice because cG talks about how tragic it is, then says it's pretty hilarious? Idk.
Sounds like just a subjective reaction, not really a trope. You don't need to try to shoehorn it into one.
You could probably call that High Octane Nightmare Fuel.
Why don't we just list the whole Homestuck universe as High Octane Nightmare Fuel ? I mean... unsuspecting 13 year olds are thrust into an alternate dimension as their world dies around them in a swath of fiery explosions. They're all alone and can't find their parents, and the goofy clown suits the Underlings wear only serves to disguise the true nature of the world. A world of bloodthirsty monsters. And John & co.'s situation is more nightmarish than most. Because of an innocent mistake, they now are forced to face their "final boss" early... their final boss being a black carapaced monstrosity with world shattering power, frightening speed, and the cruelty and demeanor of a serial killer (also a total Knife Nut). Judging on what happened to Dave when he tried to stop Draconian Dignitary, he's got to be just as bad. And let's not forget HB: Attempt to Eat Eggs. And the kids have to face down all four members of the not-Midnight-Crew, by themselves, without any time to gear up or level up... Trolls mentioning all the empty worlds... Idk. I just think that the whole world could qualify as Nightmare Fuel.
That's not "the whole Homestuck universe", that's just several things about the Homestuck universe. And I'm still not convinced that that stuff even qualifies.
A lot of things about the game are pretty terrifying if you think about them. They're shoved into this game because there was no way to know it was anything but a harmless game, and then they're told they have to fight monsters and kill the Black King for some vague reward while also being told they can never go home again because their planet and everyone on it is dead and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. And I guess this strays a bit into WMG territory, but the players' horrible deaths seem to be inevitable as well. Even the trolls, who seem to be one of the only groups to ever beat the game, are still going to die (and they're gonna experience it twice, once as their dreamselves, once in real life). The rift could even be a failsafe to ensure that everyone'll be wiped out. Don't kick the bucket in your own session? Let's have these other guys unwittingly finish you off. There's also the fact that if one person in the group fails, everyone else does too; future Dave and Rose, if he hadn't been able to travel back, would have been stuck there literally forever until either a monster managed to kill them or they committed suicide.
Then there's the whole Summers Family Tree thing.
I'm pretty sure that could qualify for High Octane Nightmare Fuel. Also I know somebody whose nightmares were actually fueled by Homestuck, so it does scare at least one person out there badly enough.
Yeah I would totally back up someone more eloquent than I putting up a High Octane Nightmare Fuel entry lol.
Actually, isn't "it's pretty terrifying if you think about them" the definition of Fridge Horror?
Should we put it under Fridge Horror?
I vote for Fridge Horror.
Jeebus effing crow.
THE BABIES ARE NOT THE REAL GUARDIANS AND KIDS! THEY ARE CLONES! So can we please hold off on all these Stable Time Loop theories until we have more info?
Erm, based on the way Andrew himself has talked about this update, it's pretty certain that at least the kids are the actual kids here.
Plus, uh, the update made it pretty clear that the kids arrived on meteors. Where do you think those meteors came from if not the Veil?
The Guardians, however, I think I can agree about for the time being.
Someone deleted the ship sinking entry, saying Andrew "confirmed that they're not literal siblings." Can we get a source on that?
Here you go.
Yet he also said, pretty specifically, that he had sunk some ships with that story development. That appeared in the news updates.
His formspring answer really only serves to say: whether or not you consider it incest will depend on how you define incest— on whether you think "it's incest if they were brought up together" or "it's incest if they're genetically related". The pairings in question are the latter and are not the former.
I think the Ship Sinking entry should be restored, perhaps with that caveat if it's necessary. Any objections?
The update sunk the ships for a lot of people regardless if Word of God said it's incest or not. My vote is to restore it.
I vote to restore it too. It's incestuous in the one way that actually counts.
If you guys really think we should put it back in, I suggest someone rewrite it to make it less ambiguous. If it should be on, it should at least make clear that it's not necessarily true, but many people felt this way.
Could we remove any theories that have been Jossed from the WMG?
They are taking up a lot of space on an already huge page.
If you're willing to be the one to do it, sure.
Just make sure you don't define "Jossed" too broadly. I'm pretty sure there have been instances where a theory sort of looked disproved, then turned out to be correct anyway.
Organize them into folders? "Jossed," "Not Jossed" and "Never had a chance of being confirmed ever"?
Ugh, someone reversed it and now the page is all disorganized again. Why?
Might be a good idea to take this discussion to the WMG Homestuck discussion page, rather than this one. ninjacrat didn't leave any edit reason, whatever the case.
And we now have our answer. Check the above mentioned discussion page.
Don't delete other people's guesses: WMG is a place for people to throw out wild and crazy and (optionally) tongue-in-cheek ideas just for the fun of it, and deleting them is very counter to that.
If a page gets to big we'll split it, like was done to Bleach.
Then do so. And while your at it, organize it. We don't need fifty+ threads on already disproved/proved theories.
Would The Noseless belong on this page? Practically none of the characters have noses.
Sure, Why Not?.
Shall I put this as the page quote?
Personally, I think it's too long. Maybe at the end? Put it at the end. Looks good.
No, it's fine. Don't forget the "sacred urns toppled, etc." bit.
Just as I put it at the end. It's better considering we don't want the page getting dragged down to the bottom.
I don't think it needs that bit, really.
Seeing as the third anniversery passed just recently, why not update this bit of the page? I always really liked it.
Because that would be a lot of counting that nobody wants to do. Hussie did the counting in the first place; if he offers the stats I'll gladly put them there, but until then I'm not wasting my time counting panels and timing flashes.
"Dave previously used the Bladekind Abstratus. However, since having his sword broken in half by Bro, he's now stuck with the 1/2Bladekind Abstratus - meaning he can only use swords with broken blades." in Improbable Weapon User.
Possible subversion in that Future Dave could apparently use his time abilities to "repair" his sword: reverting it to a time when it was not broken in half? Watch his blade extension sequence, I think this is what is happening.
No, when he uses his timetables, all of him goes back in time, but his gear doesn't reverse, so it would stay at 1/2 bladekind.
He's still under the limitations of the 1/2bladekind abstratus, meaning his weapon still has to be broken in some sense of the word— that, and we don't yet know the mechanics behind the blade's apparent "reparation".
Plus, he still kicks a lot of ass with it while it's in its half-form.
Remember how John's Hammerkind Abstratus got broken when it lost its head, and then was repaired when he fixed it? I'm guessing his sword just an expandable two-segment sword - and that the rules of the world count it as "breaking" when it collapses and "fixing" when it expands.
Yeah, I'm quite sure that Dave's time travel reverts it to bladekind.
Common theory states that Caldescratch was created by Future Dave alchemizing a broken sword with the time tables. He turns a dial on the handle to revert the sword back in time to an unbroken state.
There's also the Snoop Dog's Snow Cone Machete, which, from what I can tell, is in an unbroken state. He also examined the Scarlet Ribbitar in both broken and unbroken states. Possibly this means that, similar to Equius being able to use both Bowkind and 1/2Bowkind, Dave is using Bladekind and 1/2 Bladekind?
Is it possible that Davesprite also dropped the specibus card for Bladekind? Future Dave was using 1/2, but had moments where he restored or extended the other half of the blade.
I think the abstractus automatically changes whenever the blade does.
I think since it can cycle through its entire life as a sword, it can function as a blade, but still fit in the 1/2 bladekind.
Doublecross has the right answer: Dave mentions at one point he can cycle through the sword's life span from when it's new and sharp to when it's old and rusty. He simply cycles before and after the break for having a "full" sword that nonetheless is broken as soon as he reverts the time magic on it. Sort of a workaround within the strife specibus.
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How well does it match the trope?