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Sep 15th 2013 at 2:39:05 PM •••

Color doesn't work on the wiki anymore, which renders the color schemes on the subpages useless. What do we do now?

Edited by Hide/Show Replies
Apr 13th 2012 at 1:55:29 AM •••

Would the user who proposed we use Purple and Grey for Schroedinger's Truth (See "We need to adopt the Schroedinger's truth from the above WMG for our arguments.") kindly PM me? We need a new color scheme for your idea.

Edited by MugenKagemaru
Dec 21st 2010 at 6:22:33 PM •••

As mentioned in the topic above, this article has reached a size where it is in danger of causing server performance issues any time that it's edited. See this thread for details on the issue.

Long story short, if a split isn't done, this article could end up locked. To fix this, I plan to split the current main article into the following sub-pages to go along with the Color Text, Translated, and Untranslated pages:

This setup has worked pretty well for other WMG pages, and should give a lot more breathing room while at the same time solving editing and folder-breakage issues.

It will take me a couple of days to sort all of the entries into the correct sub-pages before I change the main article. In the meantime, please let me know if you have any objections to this strategy.

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Dec 22nd 2010 at 7:27:04 PM •••

Ok, this is done. I made a very pitiful attempt at modifying the opening text on the main article, but I'm sure someone else can make it more Beatrice-y. I will also leave it to some of you to reword the beginning text on the new sub-pages.

Dec 27th 2010 at 4:55:33 AM •••

The split pages are a good idea (thanks for the hard work! Good thing the page didn't get locked due to performance issues), but I think the categorisation might need some more work, although maybe you're still in the process of that. There are at least two theories on the Jossed page which were never jossed, one of which is even considered by some people to have been confirmed by canon in Ep 7.

Dec 27th 2010 at 8:42:50 AM •••

That was probably an error of mis-understanding on my part, as I am not nearly as deep into this series as most others are. If you see any that are incorrect as far as that goes, please feel free to go ahead and move them to the correct page.

I'm effectively done with the work I was attempting to do here, so you don't have to worry about edits being crossed or anything like that.

Edited by Meeble
Jan 8th 2012 at 7:32:36 AM •••

Hi, I've been moving theories from "open" to jossed/confirmed. Right now, I am wondering what to do with the "untranslated" page. Since episode 8 has been out for a while now, should the page contents be distributed over open/jossed/confirmed?

Sep 2nd 2010 at 10:07:42 AM •••

The page is getting fucking huge. Anyone else think we can try separating the page into Color Text, Jossed, Silly, Serious theory pages like we did with Translated and Untranslated? It's becoming a chore to navigate the page if you're trying to get anywhere that isn't top or bottom.

Aug 11th 2010 at 4:34:33 PM •••

Red Truths made during the fifth game can only be trusted if backed by evidence. According to Erika her investigation showed the a living Kinzo couldn't exist outside the mansion, but she did not say which mansion. Therefore, he could have existed in Kuwadorian which was not searched. Alternativly, red: no indication is given that Erika searched the courtyard. Thus, Kinzo could have existed in the courtyard.

  • No he couldn't of, because of Battler's Gold.
    • Battler's gold was made during the trial, which was stated to begin at the end of the second day. Kinzo could have been alive before then.
      • Ushiromiya Kinzo has been dead since the start! This is true for all games!
        • Beato made that statement during the fourth game. The red truth is neither capable of predicting the future nor controling the actions of others. At best, that Red Truth gurentees that Beato will never create a game where Kinzo is alive. However, Lambda was the Game Master in the fifth game. Therefore, she could have created a game where Kinzo was alive!
          • Well, except no, not at all. Kinzo died at least a year before the Game even begun, and as Bernkastel explained to Ange, it's impossible to change events before the box is closed on Rokkenjima...unless you're claiming Lambdadelta brought Kinzo back to life with MAGIC, which is just foolishness.
            • What possible reason could Natsuhi (or anyone else) have for keeping Kinzo's body around that long? There isn't one, therefore the scence that indicates that Kinzo was dead a year before the game is false.Also, It appeared that Bernkastel did not know what the Golden Truth was.Therefore, she was either deliberatly deceiving those present, or was simply ignorant. Either way this shows that she could be mistaken or lying to Ange. Not to mention Erika's very existence disproves her claim. Also, the claim being made is "A living Kinzo could have existed outside of Natsuhi's bed during the fifth game."Not,"Battler's grandfather Kinzo could have existed outside of Natsuhi's bed during the fifth game. In other words, Demonstrating Battler's grandfather is dead is insufficent to counter it.You must either show that Battler's "Kinzo is a title" claim is wrong, or show that everyone who could have inherited it was also dead!
              • Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Yet again, someone claims the scenes of Kinzo's death are false, and again, I ask that evidence of the scenes' falsehood be presented, or that the statements be removed.
            • What possible reason could Natsuhi have for keeping Kinzo's body around? Because she needs to fake his death later, pay attention to the VN. Erika is not a counter-evidence, as Erika Furudo's corpse is believed to have washed up on Rokkenjima. Since whether or not this is true, and whether or not she's alive, is undetermined, this is a Catbox factor Bernkastel can change, as it's a factor that can only come up after the lid is already closed, unlike something like Ange being on the ride to Rokkenjima or something similar. And besides, I don't need to address the "Kinzo is a title" claim whatsoever. That wasn't the point. No one cares about someone inheriting Kinzo's name and finding such a person only puts more weight on the idea that Kinzo Ushiromiya is dead.
              • Natsuhi doesn't want anyone to know that Kinzo is dead! Faking his death will make people believe he's dead! Thus faking his death makes no sense! During the fifth game it was stated that "[Erika] does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them." In order for Erika's corpose to have existed Erika herself must have existed at some point. This violates the Red Truth that Erika didn't exist in any previous worlds. The claim I'm making is that A living person named Kinzo existed outside of Natsuhi's bed during the fifth game. Admittingly, I got distracted arguing about the life and death status of Battler's grandfather, but the original claim holds whether he's alive or dead.
                • red:Whether or not a person named Kinzo existed outside of Natsuhi's bed is absolutely irrelevant. The only relevant subject matter was Kinzo Ushiromiya, the grandfather of Battler Ushiromiya.
                  • Keeping his body around greatly increases the chance's of it being discovered ahead of schedule. It would be much safer to cremate it and than report Kinzo missing once their financial problems are solved. They had atleast a year to cremate his body. Furthermore, if anyone who wasn't part of the conspiracy found it they would certanitly contact the authorities and an autopsy would be performed which would show he had not died recently. Regarding Erika, "[...] nor does she influence them." If Erika had existed in a world at any point in time she would have influenced it. Since you claimed that the red's reffering to Kinzo's location only refers to Battler's grandfather and not every Kinzo, the statement "Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games." doesn't refer to the Battler we know, but to Asumu's child, the Battler we know was the culprit in the fifth game! Depending on the nature of the exception clause Lambda mentioned he could have even been the culprit in the first four games! Also, his sin six years ago was killing Asumu!
                    • Regardless of whether or not it would be easier, it doesn't change the fact that Natsuhi and Krauss kept the body around. Maybe they decided they might need it to make a Kinzo-puppet? Fuck if I know, Natsuhi is certifiably insane. Furthermore, 1) Erika can't influence anything if, say, she's a corpse who washed up on the other side of the island and was never found. 2) Kinzo being the sole subject of the Red in context and the Other Battler problem have no causal relationship, especially since we have no reason to believe this other child was even named "Battler." 3) There's no evidence this Other Battler is the culprit of the Fifth Game. The only evidence for his existence is phone calls no one but Natsuhi ever heard, and she's fucking nuts and hallucinates things.
                      • Knox's 9th.It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. The scenes establishing Kinzo had been dead for nearly a year were falsified.I will present additional evidence to support this claim. In the third game it was stated that "[Kinzo] died instantly.", Beato's definition of instant death requires the person to be a murder victim." Nothing in the scene that shows what happened immediatly after Kinzo was declared dead indicates he was murdered!" I have shown substantial evidence to show the scenes establishing Kinzo died nearly a year prior to the start of the game were falsified. We have no reason to believe the scenes that indicate Kinzo died nearly a year before the game. Even if he did there is no rational reason for keeping his body around. Since the scence's that indicate Natsuhi might not be sane are the same one's that establish Kinzo died, and are thus falsifired, there isn't any irrational reason to keep the body around either. (1) Even if Erika doesn't influence the gameboard she would still have influenced the world the gameboard is in. (2) "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." shows that Asumu's child's name is Battler (3) I'm not claiming Other Battler was the culprit in the Fifth game or any other (or that he was even present in any game), I'm claiming that he was the one Virgilia was talking about when she said Battler-kun wasn't the culprit.
  • Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Where is it stated that "Instant Death" requires murder? A person can "die instantly" from a heart attack. Unless you're proposing that Krauss and Natsuhi murdered him, this doesn't work, as we have Red proving that he was dead before all games regardless of how he actually died. That, and we have no reason to believe the scenes regarding his death are falsified, and your "evidences" are insufficient. Besides, Word of God confirms that the supernatural scenes are allegory for things that actually happened. Regardless, the body was kept around, by fact that it can be found. A reasoning for why the body was kept does not need to be provided. 1) Well, duh. Because Erika is also a title for whoever is playing her role in games 5 and 6 ("Erika-Ball" theory). 2) Right, I forgot that part. Conceding that point. 3) I don't think so. Virgilia specifically said "Battler-kun." The honorifics imply OUR Battler, since she consistently calls him "Battler-kun" and the honorific is typically restricted for people you know reasonably well. And Our Battler can't be the culprit either, so why make the distinction in the first place?
    • Presentation of evidence, this screenshot shows that Beato's definition of instant death requires the victim to be attacked. The details regarding Kinzo murder are a Devil's Proof. I refuse to explain. The red truth cannot predict the future nor can it control the actions of others, thus there is no need to consider Beato's reds regarding Kinzo's death when talking about later games. In the fifth game, the statements "Kinzo is already dead" and "Grandfather is dead at this point in time." were made during a replay Lambda showed Battler. For time sensitive issues the Red Truth doesn't go by what is currently being shown, but the state the board was in before it was paused to have a replay. Alternativily, Lambda was reffering to the head before the Kinzo we know, and battler meant his grandfather Kinzo, but the Red Truth still allowed his statement because his maternal Grandfather is dead. Not unlike how he was allowed to say"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born."Even though at the time he meant "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born."Which is false.No statement regarding Kinzo's death were made in red during the sixth game.Kinzo could have died shortly before the start of the game, which would explain why his body hadn't been disposed of. This applies to all games. 1) In that case, please define "Erika" 3)I concede the point about the honoriffics. However the point about the names still stands, The names Battler, Beatrice, Nanjo, Kumasawa,and Kinzo.can refer to more then one person each.Therefore, Any Red Truth reffering to one of those (in absence of honoriffics) could be reffering to someone other then whom the listener thinks the speaker is talking about.
  • The screenshot doesn't really prove much, by fact that the definition is both in white, and not even guaranteed to be universal to all instances of "instant death." She doesn't announce it as a universal definition like "Beato's Closed Room Definition." Regardless, it's entirely possible that he was instantly his disease >:D Regardless, Beatrice already guaranteed that Kinzo is always dead before October 4, 1986. This is an inarguable point because nothing before that day can be changed. As for the matter of the Red Truth's time sensitivity, Lambdadelta's given Red comments were in reference to what was happening on the board at the time. I'm not entirely sure this is an Ep3-Nanjo's Death style time-puzzle. Also, Considering the circumstances, there is just no way in hell everyone would acknowledge Krauss as "Kinzo", so we can probably out that. Also, for simplicity, let's make this previous tangent of conversation "0)", this is becoming a huge conversation.
Moving on, 1) "Erika", as per the "Erika-ball theory", is the idea that someone, either one person or a collective of people, are using Erika's name, in a similar manner that Sayo calls herself "Shannon" and so forth. For example, taking Erika out of the equation, the only other female character that could've possibly gotten into the Logic Error puzzle and played her role was Jessica, and the two do have a lot of connections. So hypothetically, you could replace Erika's name with "Jessica" in this theory in all the Red Truth pertaining to her and have an accurate account. This is just one variant, of course. I'm not going to pretend I know what Erika actually represents, but we know she as depicted does not exist. 3) Indeed, no disagreement there. I'm just saying that the Red you provided can't be referring to Beato's opponent. Virgilia's not that kind of person anyway. To say nothing of speculations that the Other Battler is a character we already know, like Shkanon or Jessica.
  • 0) I doubt Beato would lie about the definition of a term, after all she wants Battler to solve the game. I wouldn't say Kinzo's life and death status is inarguably a constant. Neverless, it is supported by the "Regarding Witches" TIP. I Concede that Kinzo's life and death status is indeed the same at the start of every game. I will now argue that Kinzo is alive at the start of game. Nanjo is incompetent. The fact he has apparently been telling everyone Kinzo has three months to live for atleast a year is proof. Therefore, the scene where Kinzo was pronounced dead was genuine, Nanjo was just wrong. Kinzo was just napping.Kinzo is dead at the start of all games.When Kinzo heard Battler was returning, he realized that he could revive Beatrice if he was somehow able to convice Battler that she exists. To that end he devised a murder mystery game with Battler as the detective. In the fifth and sixth games Battler somehow found out about the game (but not its purpose) and everyone decided to have Erika be the detective. One of the premises of said game is that Kinzo himself is dead from the start. That is the game that red truth refers too. 1) Conceded.
  • 0) Nanjo only started telling people Kinzo had three months to live after the scene were he (apparently) died and Natsuhi cracked her plan. Which means he's probably just lying. On that note, I doubt Nanjo is so literally incompetent that he can't check a pulse, and even if he was, I'm sure atleast Genji or somebody could doublecheck. Plus, he'd have to wake up soon, so keeping up this charade for over a year makes no sense. Combine with the fact that Bern confirmed in red that the Kinzo Natsuhi knew for the last one or two years was a lie, and it becomes pretty clear. Besides, if you're going to make the argument that the Red Truth can be deceitful (Kinzo is dead at the start of all games, then the Red Truth becomes worthless as a truth-determining tool. Anyone who's faking death can just say they're dead in Red, so what the hell is the point? It is an undeniable fact that Kinzo is literally dead before all games, else you simply have no love for Ryukishi's game, and fall into the same trap as Erika.
    • 0) They'd only need to have that charade if Kinzo was actually dead, the reason no one else saw him was for the reasons they were told, not any kind of conspiracy.Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. Since Bern was a substitute for Battler in the fifth game, her Red Truths are subject to the same rules his were. In other words, if they aren't backed by evidence they can be disregarded. Okay, my game arugument wasn't thought out, I concede that point. However, Kinzo is a title belonging to the head of the Ushiromiya family. Thus, the person we know as Kinzo also has a different name. The statement,Kinzo is dead, simply means he has given up his position as the family head for Reason X. Just like the statement Shannon is dead. means Sayo no longer considers herself furniture.]]
  • Except we don't know that [[color:Shannon is dead]] can be rightfully answered with "Oh, she's just Sayo now." Now you're just backing theories with other unsupported theories. And...what? Red Truth doesn't NEED evidence to back it up. It is inherently and absolutely true. You can't just disregard it. By this point you're just outright admitting you don't care about the rules Ryukishi set us up with. Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead before the start of all games. This is an unarguable fact. The debate regarding the living/dead status of Kinzo was strictly in regards of Battler's grandfather. Appealing to the Kinzo Name Inheritance theory is irrelevant and ineffectual. You used Knox's 2nd incorrectly. Disregarding, even, that we have no reason we have to accept Knox's Decalogue as even applicable to the Game.
    • Counterpoint, Before episode four we had no evidence that the Red Truth was a reliable source of information. The scence where Battler chokes while trying to say he was born from Asumu was the first real evidence. Before that it was just a question of whether Beato was trustworthy. However, Lambda is the Game Master of the fifth game. And were explicitly told its possible to use chess equipment to do something other then play chess and that Lambda's game lacks love and honor. Furthermore, the Red Key Tip states that Lambda has put restrictions on its useage and power. Also, were told in red that there is Hell, Battler and Erika both ignore Red Truths when making their theories. Therefore, although we have sufficent evidence to support the Red Truth being a reliable source of information in the first four games. The same cannot be said for the fifth game. Also, this isn't the first time the validty of episode 5 reds has been challenged. See "Red truths made during the fifth game can be lies." on this page for the full argument. The most recent argument on my side hasn't been countered.
      • I don't find any of those arguments at all meaningful or compelling. Moreover, Word of God says he would "never do such a cruel trap" such as intentionally misleading by breaking a tool such as "Red Truth can lie." It would go against the Fair Play of his game. Therefore, [COLOR:RED: ARGUMENT INVALIDATED]]
        • Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. If you would claim Word of God says that you must present proof. Also, so long as my claim regarding Knox's Ninth (i.e. that it was blatently misdefined in red) isn't countered, I will not concede. Let's get back to the main point of this topic. The courtyard counts as being inside the mansion. and The term "the mansion" when used in red can refer to either the mansion everyone knows about or the hidden mansion Kuwadorian.
          • Disregarding that reality doesn't follow Knox's rules; It's right there on his blog. If you can't read Japanese, that's not my problem. Regardless, Knox's 9th isn't a valid point; Knox's 5th is omitted entirely, and the two readings of Knox's 9th really mean the same thing. Even if not, it was already mentioned that people argued over how to interpret or write Knox's Decalogue in the TIPS. Them being different doesn't MEAN anything because there is no OBLIGATION to make it a perfect transcription. As for the "main point", what are you talking about? What does this courtyard and mansion have to do with anything?

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Aug 21st 2010 at 6:53:42 PM •••

Why isn't the second folder working?

Aug 9th 2010 at 11:48:01 AM •••

Lambdadelta is Satoko.
If we assume that Lambdadelta is a character from Higurashi and that her appearance in Umineko is based off of that character, she can only be Satoko or Takano. If Lambdadelta is Takano she would appear older then Bernkastel. Bernkastel and Lamdadelta appear to be the same age. Lamdadelta's name means 34 in Greek This is a reference to the fact that Satoko died in room 3-4 Yakusamashi-hen, as well as a deliberate move on her part to confuse the audience. Also, in the "Whose Tea Party" TIP Lambdadelta sets a trap for Bernkastel, which Bernkastel avoids until she hears Lambdadelta and Featherine debating her abillity to avoid Lambdadelta's traps. After which she allows her self to be caught in the trap. The conversation she heard was itself part of the trap. Satoko is a trap master.
  • OK, if Lambda is Satoko, why does she resemble Takano in appearance? (Height matters not)
    • Satoko and Miyoko (i.e. young Takano) resemble each other in appearance. It is even possible for someone to confuse one for the other. I have seen it happen. Thus anyone who resembles Miyoko in appearance also resembles Satoko.
      • Satoko's eyes are blue. Takano and Lambdadelta both have amber eyes. This theory, though an amazingly nice effort, ultimately doesn't hold.
        • Lambda used some method to change the color of her eyes, for example colored contacts or magic. Furthermore, eye color is inconsistent within the When They Cry franchise (e.g. Lambda's eyes are red in the anime), thus it is not a reliable indicator of idenity.
          • The anime can't be taken for canonical basis on anything, given that it was downright awful and contradicted and omitted many critical factors. Besides, why the hell would Lambdadelta disguise her eye color? And in what sense was Satako an "opposing piece" versus Frederica Bernkastel in their game? It makes no sense, I tells ya.
            • She was color blind when she was human. When she became a witch she gained the abillity to see color and decided she didn't like her eye color. So, she changed it. At one point Bernkastel threatens to tell Lambadelta who the culprit in Higurashi. Such a threat would only work on someone who doesn't already know who the culprit is. If the previous game between them was Higurashi, then Lambda would know who the culprit is. The threat works. Thus the previous game between them was not Higurashi. Now for my counterattack, Lambda's diary mentions a girl who wanted to become a god. Knox 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. The only characters who fit the description "girl who wanted to become a god" are Hanyuu and Takano. Furthermore, Lambda's diary indicates that this girl failed. Hanyuu is Oyashiro-sama who is considered a god.) Thus, that girl must be Takano. That girl is not Lambadelta. Thus, Takano cannot be Lambadelta.
        • She can't be Satoko either, Because Satoko wasn't even born yet when Takano made her wish, she does not possess magical powers, and she would've known the conclusion of Higurashi. But then this is nonsense. Lamdadelta was never proposed to be Takano in a literal sense, but only connected to her in a way paralleling Rika and Bernkastel.
          • Witches are capable of visiting the pasts of different kakeras. The red truth can not be used to verify the existence of supernatural things, thus your claim that Satoko doesn't possess magical powers is invalid. Satoko does not remember the details of every kakera Rika experienced. Thus, only the Satoko from Matsuribayashi-hen would know the conclusion of Higurashi. Every theory I have read connecting Rika and Bernkastel, says that either Rika herself or a collection of Rika's memories somehow became Bernkastel. Therefore, if Lambadelta and some character in Higurashi share a relationship similar to Bernkastel and Rika. That character can only be Satoko or some character that I am unaware of.
            • The Red Truth is only forbidden from confirming the supernatural so that there may be a game between Beato and Battler, therefore there is no prohibition against using the Red Truth outside of the context of Beato's game, such as the events of Higurashi where the status of the supernatural is left objectively bare. With that in mind, Satoko does not possess magical powers, and since Bernkastel acknowledges she and Rika are separate, There is no need for Lambdadelta to acknowledge a connection to her pieces. Furthermore, by Lambdadelta's own account, she granted Takano's wish and left, not sticking around to see the results, so Lambdadelta not knowing the conclusion of Higurashi doesn't mean a damn thing. Checkmate.
              • The point we are arguing is whether Satoko is Lambadelta and therefore whether Satoko possesses magical powers, therefore the rule against using the red to confirm or deny the supernatural is still in effect. Furthermore, it is possible to explain the events of Higurashi without relying on the existence of the supernatural. No indication is given that Hanyuu or Battler possessed magical powers before they died. Therefore, Satoko gained magical powers after she died. Takano is the culprit in Higurashi. Therefore, every Takano knows who the culprit in Higurashi is. Therefore, if Lambdadelta was Takano she would know who the culprit in Higurashi is.
              • No, it cannot; Rika defeated Takano by relying on information she gained via the timeloop, along with miracles caused by Hanyuu's timestopping magic. Unless you wish to argue that Rika managed to catch a bullet without using magic. Hell, Hanyuu's objective existence is proof enough. Lambdadelta bears a resemblance to the child Takano, hair, eyes, and all, and claims no objective connection to her. Therefore, Lambdadelta need only be based on the child self of Miyo Takano, and may not know what her "client" grows up to do.
                • All of the events of Higurashi are a delusion being experience by the Rika in Saikoroshi-hen. Alternativly, they are a delusion being experienced by Keiichi in Onikakushi-hen. Alternativly, they are part of Mion's dream in Hinageshi-hen. They're are arcs of Higurashi in which neither Satoko nor Takano would know who the culprit is, for example Yoigoshi-hen. Bernkastel was threatening to tell Lambda who the culprit was in one or more of those arcs. Lambdadelta is a Voyager Witch. Voyagers consider Creator Witches to be gods. There is no evidence to suggest that Hanyuu is a Creator. Therefore, Lambadelta would not consider Hanyuu a god, and thus the girl who wanted to become a god is Hanyuu. Miyoko, Lambadelta, and Satoko all ressemble each other to the point where they can be mistaken for eachother. Therefore, they must either be disguising themselves as each other, happen to look identical to eachother, or be the same person. Knox's 10th: "It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues." No clues have appeared indicating any of them are in disguise. Original!Knox's 10th: "Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them." We have not been duly prepared for Lambda, Satoko, and Miyoko to look identicial. Therefore, Lambadelta, Satoko, and Miyoko are a single person.
It is not entirely true that there is no evidence to suggest that Hanyuu is a creator She is not only a being capable of creating new worlds for Rika to strive in, but also bears some connection to Featherine Augustus Aurora. Featherine may or may not be a Creator Witch; she's certainly pushing it with her power and involvement. Furthermore, blue: The events of Higurashi were not the hallucinations of anyone, because the scenarios all involved information that no single character could've possessed at any one time. It's also bad writing, and Ryukishi is better than that.
  • Showing that one of Knox's doesn't apply does not automatically rule out the others. For example, the Umineko version of Knox's 5th (whatever it happens to be) does not apply to any of the games on the other hand Umineko!Knox's 2nd applies to the fifth game despite contradicting the rule that says the Red Truth is absolute proof. Therefore, even though Original!Knox's 2nd doesn't apply, it is still possible for all of his other rules to apply. Also, the biggest piece of support for the theory that Lambda is Satoko is not the similarity in appearance, but the fact that Bernkastel fell for Lambda's trap, and Satoko is known for her trap making skills. That piece of evidence has yet to be countered.
    • No matter how one interprets Knox's rules, they need only be adhered to in a Mystery, which Higurashi was not. Umineko is not a Mystery either! As for the trap move (One of the most brilliant moves you've put forth), I counter with this: Not only has Satoko never intentionally used her traps on Rika Furude (and was shocked when Rika actually DID fall into one), none of Satoko's traps compare to Takano's trap: The trap of the Endless June of Showa 58. Due to this, I counter with the most brilliant blue: Lambdadelta caused Endless Eight. Her identity becomes irrelevant in the face of this horror.
      • (New poster) Incorrect! Because the Knox rules are stated in red, they must be adhered to in this story! While the Knox rules do place some constraints that are generally only meaningful in a Mystery (such as "can be solved only with clues stated"), there are others that are meaningful outside Mysteries (such as "no magic or complicated scientific devices"). Furthermore, claiming that Lambdadelta's identity doesn't matter because of Endless Eight is a red herring argument!
        • Knox's Decalogue is a valid standpoint from which to argue, but are not absolute rules to which all events in Umineko must follow. However, they can become absolute if the Game Master proclaims in Gold that the events do follow the Decalogue.
      • First, I will establish all mediums of Higurashi to be valid, Hanyuu looped the lives of multiple Rikas. Therefore, even if different versions of Higurashi contradict each other, it is possible for all of them to be true because they can involve different Rikas. Satoko uses traps against Rika in Higurashi Daybreak. However, I cannot counter your blue truth.
        • Daybreak totally isn't canonical, given that it's not only over the top silly, but it also involves impossibilities that can't be resolved by Hanyuu's timeloops. It's probably a fanfiction written by Maria or something, made meta-real since it's not denied in red or gold.
      • (Same new poster) Yeah, I'm gonna call Arbitrary Skepticism on this one. I demand that you give a reason that timeloops should be accepted but red-string magatamas considered ridiculous!
        • It's not the Magatama, it's the cast being totally out of character...that and everyone basically trying to kill each other over Rena for little to no reason (including Rena herself), Hanyuu manifesting to join the fighting, crazy anime fighting that's inconsistent with Higurashi's generally consistent compliance with reality, and so forth. Though if I had to find a reason for the Magatama thing... Regardless of skepticism, the time-loops are a plotline necessity, and can be justified in a non-Fantasy context by invoking Many-Worlds Interpretation. The Magatama have no such basis in either plausibiity or practicality.
          • No one dies in Higurashi Daybreak, any death threats are simply hyperbole. The games exagerate the characters abillities. Alternativly, the magatama somehow give people in close proximity superhuman abillites. Alternativly, Hanyyu did it. Alternativily, having superhuman abillities is perfectly normal for the kakeras daybreak takes place in. After all, the reason Rules X, Y, and Z happen with such consistency is because they have strong wills supporting them. There is no strong will to make people not have superhuman abillities. Hanyuu is a matchmaking god, the existence of the magatama is not only plausible, it's actually more likely then Hanyuu's time looping/universe hopping abillities.
      • Oh, so you're invoking Anthropic Principle, are you? The Anthropic Principle Of Fiction states that Willing Suspension of Disbelief applies to any necessary premise of the plot, regardless of plausibility. I propose that the Anthropic Principle protects all implausible elements of Daybreak, as they are essential premises of its plot! Besides, Theoretical Quantum Physics Does Not Work That Way. Information cannot travel from one world to another (much less the past of another) unless a Pro-Fantasy or Pro-Science-Fiction interpretation is applied.
        • I think we can stop now. This now no longer has anything even remotely to do with Umineko.
          • Good god, it's like a candy store went and exploded all over the UMG.

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