Discussion MyersBriggs / ExamplesOfArtisanPersonalitiesInStories

Don't know why it keeps getting moved back to ISTP. I gave a very logical argument for why I think Cloud's truly an INFP, and Raina keeps removing it with no reason whatsoever. I know a lot of people see Cloud as an ISTP, and that's fine, but I NEED a reason. If they show up here with their reasoning, I'll gladly give mine again.

Well, first off, both of you ought to stop edit warring. I'll ask Raina to come here.

Second, what is the argument for Cloud's inclusion on INFP and ISTP?

Well, Cloud is an extremely hard character to type, considering he's written a bit differently every appearance he has. If you were to ask me Cloud's type the first half of Final Fantasy VII, I would most certainly agree that he was ISTP. However...it goes deeper than that. The ISTP personality he had on at the beginning of the game was a mask he put on after taking on Zack's personality (who may or may not be a sensor or intuitive; most people seem to type him as either ENFP or ESFP), and you need to look at his appearance in Advent Children after facing himself, and more importantly to me- his Crisis Core appearance and FFVII flashback appearances.

The debate nowadays seems to be largely between INFP and ISTP, but I'm of the opinion he's NOT a thinker. The ISTP trait of being free spirited and being drawn to high risk, action type activities certainly apply to a large part, but that's no what we need to look at. First off, his crush on Tifa, which screams INFP. His crush on her was constantly idealized, that he could be her hero and she would fall in love with him, and his tendency to almost 'stalk' her, which is very indicative of an INFP (an unhealthy one, yes, but I'll get to that later.) Then of course, was the incident where he saved Tifa and was criticized by the village, and he lashed out constantly and was pretty bitter and selfish, which not only indicates a feeler, but a feeler handling their emotions badly. Cloud clearly was depressed and felt bad almost constantly because he felt attacked, alone and unwanted, something INF Ps constantly do in their heads. Then one of the most important parts of why Cloud is an INFP to me. After the whole debacle of his idealizations breaking down, and him becoming bitter, he does what every INFP does when their values are challenged- he built a new idealization; that of becoming a SOLDIER, a hero, and getting the girl. He left not because he logically wanted to, but because he felt like he could be in SOLDIER and get the girl- a very INFP thing to do. He built an entire reality in his head, one of being a hero and a champion. Then of course, when he goes back as just a grunt, a failure, he hides in shame because his idealizations weren't true and reality punched him in the face. Do the whole Sephiroth thing, yadda, yadda, and we have Zack's death (as portrayed in Crisis Core is pretty INF Pish to Cloud, by the way) and he travels to Midgar, creating a fake, idealized version of what he thought a hero was, both from Zack, and from what he imagined as a kid, a thinker, down to earth who did what he wanted. An ISTP. Eventually that's broken down yet again and he's a walking emotional mess for a long time; indecisive, unsure of where he belonged or who he was. A VERY unhealthy INFP. He eventually gets over his problems a bit, but as Advent Children shows (not people's favorite, I know, but canon nontheless) he's still stuck on the pasts, on his regrets. IST Ps are not like that. He would logically know that it wasn't his fault Aerith died if he was an ISTP, but he's basically a walking guilt complex at that point (once again, INFP type trait.) Add in the whole "I pity you. You just don't get it at all. There's not a thing I don't cherish!" line, and it's pretty obvious he's a feeler.

So, in conclusion, it seems to be pretty obvious he's an ISTP at first glance, but I went deeper than that. You have to look at his motivations, how he thinks. And he thinks like an INFP.

And then of course there's the whole naming thing, Strife. IST Ps are very decisive- not what you would name an ISTP if you want significance.

Is Raina going to show up at some point?

I guess that she is not going to show up in the discussion page... because she already put the examples back without any discussion.

Even as I went deeper, not only on first glance, Cloud is clearly ISTP. Typing him as INFP is hilariously out of character. Out of his fake persona, ISFP also makes sense. But INFP is way off. He uses his senses to act swiftly in the moment. A person who is N focuses on the future possibilities and patterns and extremely imaginative, which Cloud clearly does not do. He does look for possibilities to make things better, but that is in the here and now. He is not imaginative at all, rather he is very focused in the moment. If he is focused in any other tense, it is the past. But not the future. His thoughts towards the future are negative, not positive. He is afraid of the future's possibilities as a result of his past and therefore feels washed with negative feelings when thinking about it. You're focusing too much on story on not on his actual personality as an individual. But even with the storyline, he is ISTP. He chose to try to become a soldier because he felt it was logical - it would help Tifa realize his feelings for him. And what he imagined as a child was based on pure logic(Ti function) on what he thought would work best. You also don't seem to be using cognitive functions. If you don't use cognitive functions and only go by letters, your typing will be inaccurate. First, have a look at the functions of ISTP: Ti, Se, Ni, Fe. ISFP, which is his second option after ISTP, is Fi, Se, Ni, Te. INFP is Fi, Ne, Si, Te. Let's have a look at his personal cognitive functions before putting letters together. The most important thing differing from INFP to ISTP/ISFP is S and N. For INFP, it's Ne and Si. For the other two, it's Se and Ni. Typing Cloud as INFP is terribly incorrect because he's very clearly Se/Ni. Se: Cloud does everything by experience, observing before responding, talking about things to do an actions to take. Ni: He pays attention to future implications, he is aware of patterns and systems. Now, for Thinking and Feeling functions. This is what will help decide between ISTP/ISFP. Ti: Cloud isn't organized(shown in many aspects of his life and even personal matters like having a messy desk), he focuses on principles, he analyzes internally, and checks consistency. Ti is his most dominant and developed function, proving him to be ISTP. Fe: He is considerate for others, relates through experience, and VERY STRONGLY feels responsibility for other's feelings.

Also, you clearly don't understand how MBTI works if you think an ISTP doesn't have those feelings. Their feelings are all inside, they just cover it up to others and act strong, just like Cloud. He doesn't put his feelings on others because he doesn't want to burden anyone else with his own problems. ISTP's have very intense emotions, but they are on the inside. If Cloud was INFP, he would be very expressive with his dealings with others, constantly expressing his appreciation for them without embarrassment, etc. Cloud has difficulty being openly expressive. He won't say anything emotional out loud. ISTP's have feelings, just like anyone with T. You need to educate yourself more with MBTI. Being a logical thinker doesn't mean you don't have feelings. It means you choose to focus on the logic and keep your feelings inside, which is exactly how Cloud acts. I really believe that if you study cognitive functions more, you will be able to type better. Anyway, all said and done. Cloud is clearly ISTP(with ISFP his second option). I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but Cloud as an INFP is laughable and I'm sure many others would agree. Lastly, I'd just recommend that you look at this FFVII MBTI chart: http://www.pinterest.com/pin/51721095695279892/ And this link to help you learn a little bit about cognitive functions: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/

I don't remember Cloud joining because he thought it was logical...and he most certainly wouldn't idealize Sephiroth and SOLDIER so much if he was an ISTP. You're forgetting INFP is just as likely to bottle up their feeling and put on an uncaring or unemotional facade.

Also, I most certainly know about functions, I just focused on Cloud's constant idealization, and the fact most people say 'Well he's not a feeler because he doesn't express it.'

Fi is Introverted Feeling, no? INF Ps don't have a tendency to outwardly express appreciation, that's Fe. Cloud isn't logical at all- he uses Fi to gauge importance. His grief at the death of Aerith kept him on the past and feeling bad. If he was a logical thinker, he would NOT be that affected nearly two years later. So that leaves us with ISFP and INFP

And you seem to be assuming just because he's good at reading the moment, or more specifically battles, he can't be N. Cloud as a child was extremely imaginative and focused towards the future. He was idealistic and put more in SOLDIER than was really there.

However, I concede you gave a perfectly reasonable argument (also towards the INFP thing is hilariously inaccurate, I would suggest you look up Cloud MBTI or Final Fantasy VII MBTI, because quite a few typed him as INFP...)

The problem is, he's such a deep character, and more importantly, written differently between iterations of the franchise. Crisis Core Cloud seems like an INFP to me. Final Fantasy VII Cloud seems ISTP and Advent Children Cloud seems ISFP or INFP. So for now, just put him into ISTP. There's no use going back and forth about this.

Yes but, your MBTI type cannot change. This is based on story but you're clearly neglecting his personality on PERSONAL terms. I'm placing Cloud as ISTP because that is obviously what he's closest to throughout the entire VII series. Even at the end of Advent Children, where his character development is completed, he is still ISTP. Yes, his Fi is developed. But what you don't understand is that while his Fi is developed, his Ti is dominant over his Fi (and it's been like this all throughout the series - even in childhood, before anything ever started, he is shown to act on what he logically believes is correct based on his INTERNAL perception.) Is his Fi developed? Yes. But his Ti is even more developed and dominant, which clearly only points to ISTP. And even had his Fi been more dominant, that would only make him ISFP - not INFP. Please, I'm saying it again, spend more time thoroughly researching MBTI and cognitive functions. Your arguments are largely based on misconceptions concerning MBTI. Cloud is ISTP with ISFP second option. Discussion concluded and solved.

"your MBTI type cannot change"(confused)But the personality of a character can change. Actually, some tropes (as Former Teen Rebel) are dependent of the idea of change.

Coming back to this later, wow. Anyways, according to MBTI, no, type cannot change. Ever. People's use of the functions can change, but their type does not; it just manifests differently. So a Former Teen Rebel, for instance, could have used their functions to justify rebelling, but as they grew up, they matured and they functionally have no use for it anymore.

And now looking back at Cloud I still firmly stand by Fi. He doesn't seem attracted to experience for the fun or thrill of it (Se) but rather instead for the importance and ideological value (Ne) and he is most definitely a Si user; I don't even know how that's a question. His past is everything to him; he makes every decision according to what's happened to him before, and he seems very much an INFP in a Fi-Si loop, suffering from severe Avoidance, not an ISTP in a Ti-Ni loop, which is Schizoid in nature. He is deceptive in his fake form, seemingly uncaring about personal relations, but it's very much a ruse. He isn't ISTP, he put ISTP on as a mask. Seriously, ISTP and ISFP use Ni as a tertiary function, which Cloud doesn't frickin' display one ounce of.

Also, I find it funny she claimed my arguments were based on misconception when she stated that "Cloud had well developed Fi as an ISTP." If you don't use that function, you don't develop it; it drains you and is almost impossible to use, so that's completely incorrect.

I know it doesn't matter now, but had I better argued that, Cloud would've been in INFP.

I'm totally being immature right now. :P

Types in work of fiction can change, even if they (supposedly) can't change in Real Life. Works of fiction, pals.

Fiction is obviously a different story, right, however that is more of human's natural inconsistencies when writing people, due to a need to adapt them to different situations. In theory, a character's functions cannot change. It's also important to remember personalities and reactions can change, but not MBTI type. For instance, an idealist's ideals can change, but that doesn't stop them from being an idealist. It's a heavily contested debate in MBTI theory, so I don't fault you for being skeptical. I also doubt that assertion a lot.

Still, I have heard that it is possible for an extrovert to become an introvert; traumatic experience, for example.

Certainly, but that implies that they're unhealthy. An extravert can become an introvert by circumstance or mental illness, but they're still naturally an extravert, and they're hurting themselves by pretending they're not. At least according to type theory.

If you want to put him in ESFP, I wouldn't object because his Se and Fi ordering is a little hard to determine, but he is far from a Ti user. Come on.

These examples attract a lot of editing, I see. I have to wonder why they are Zero Context Examples, too.

I'll gladly explain why Haru is an ISTP, and why there is a lot of edit wars surrounding the characters of Free!.

I have been studying Myers-Briggs for years and while I can openly confess I will always have room for improvement in my knowledge of the subject, I'd like to think I'm somewhat decent at character analysis.

On a lot of social network websites, Tumblr in particular, there's a frequent circulation of mistyped characters. Some characters that just plain-and-simple absolutely-do-not-fit-X-type. After taking my time to study in-depth about Haru's character and what type he can possibly be, there is no other option that ISTP, in my eyes. I'll bullet point some reasons as to why.

- Introverted - he doesn't make any effort to go out and see people, nor does he obtain any obvious social growth from being in the company of others. His personal development is primarily internal. - Sensing - he completely and utterly lacks a intuitive side. He doesn't think about the big picture, or explore deep with his thoughts. When he wants to do something, he will do it, no matter the consequences. - Thinking - has a calm and collected exterior. Rare to display any form of overbearing emotions, contrasting his best friend Makoto, who is very very Fe. - Perceiving - never makes any routine plans, displays no real sense of organisation. He's impulsive in just about every aspect of what he does, especially when it comes to swimming.

Long story short - I'm so confident he's an ISTP. I'm all ears for other arguments, but this is from my own personal thoughts.

I believe Haru is an ISFP/ISTP both. But if one more than the other, probably ISFP by a bit, now seeing as we've seen all Free! has got to offer of his personality. Let's take a look at his cognitive functions. Firstly, Se and Ni. (which is both ISFP/ISTP) Se: He is very in-the-moment(seen in his love for water especially - experiencing with all 5 senses), does things best experiencing and doing, reads minimal nonverbal cues, etc. Ni: He focuses on the depth of understanding. Here is where it gets a bit difficult, but I'll try to make it easy to explain. The T and F functions are what will differ Haru between ISFP/ISTP. Fi: Values experience, acts based on how he feels (following his heart), determining the essence of what's important, "is it worth standing up for?". He has deep feelings on the inside, even though unable to express this outside often. Does as he pleases. Te: Looks for logic. His thinking is pulled from the outer world. Now, Haru appears both Fi and Ti - his Te is actually his least developed function, and he appears more Ti. But Fi is his most developed function, making him an ISFP. Which makes sense, because Te is the least important function of ISFP anwyay. In this sense, it wouldn't be wrong to type him ISTP, but he is clearly more ISFP. He feels intimidated when he isn't allowed to do what he wants or feels is right, and gets extremely harsh when being told what to do. Like ISFP's, conflict, especially when it's about himself, clearly disturbs Haru - whereas an ISTP enjoys conflict and even anticipates it. But Haru just wants to live peacefully as he pleases. ISFP's can still be competitive when confronted though, so this explains why he doesn't completely put aside his competition with Rin - although it does spur many negative feelings in him. Also, ISFP might not seem right if you look at "F" in ISFP. But that's because you can't go by letters - you have to go by cognitive functions if you want to type correctly. It's also important to understand the nature of the ISFP. They are of the most reserved feelers and easily come off as harsh. They have more difficulty expressing themselves than any other feeler. They easily come off as ISTP because of their use of logic and attempt to ignore their inner feelings. Their feeling is strongly introverted and is their dominant function, meaning they think a lot to themselves even if not showing on the outside. Haru is seen constantly thinking about his feelings when alone - but never openly expressing. However, he is still very caring. But just like an ISFP, he does it best through actions, not words. Fi is clearly his dominant function and points greatly to him as ISFP. Also, an interesting point is that Haru is very artistic - a trait commonly belonging to ISFP. This post was also a good explanation: http://animembti.tumblr.com/post/98240940445/free-haruka-nanase-isfp Based on his personality inside and out, I strongly believe he is an ISFP. ISTP also works, but ISFP is much more accurate.

Overly Competitive - ISF Ps can escalate small things into intense competitions, turning down long-term success in their search for glory in the moment, and are unhappy when they lose. ....................definitely not haru