Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Example Sectionectomy?
, started by Anfauglith on Apr 23rd 2012 at 3:14:42 AM
Is the image's flavor text potholed correctly?
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
This page is a testament to the monstrous childishness of humanity.
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Official Tesladyne Employee TM
Someone's gone and cut Neon Genesis Evangelion. In order to avoid the inevitable Flame War, I'm putting it back in the vaguest "some people say" fashion I can. (For my money, if the main character claims to be too depressed for suicide, you haven't so much produced Wangst as defined it, but given that it seems to be Flame Bait I think a vague response and a link to Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement is better than an Edit War on whether or not it counts).
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Why would anyone get flamey about it? Evangelion has the most blatant wangst of anything I've ever seen. Are you suggesting some might not agree? o_0;
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
The angst in Evangelion is a pretty frequently debated topic, mostly over whether it all is justified(Which it is) and whether it is excessive(Which it can be).
#IceBearForPresident
Justification isn't really the point. Most folks inherently don't like being around negativity due to the crippling disability known as empathy... whether "justified" or not. Where something becomes wangst is just that magical line where the trouble of putting up with it outweighs the guilt of removing it (or removing oneself from it)... and that varies between people and situations, obviously. Sure, you could call Shinji's reaction "justified" ... but ultimately, you still wouldn't feel guilty about kicking him to the floor and stamping hard on his neck to shut the little bastard up.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
I wouldn't feel guilty about kicking an obnoxious little shit like you to the floor...
So remember, children: If you don't express your grief to another, you're manly and strong, instead of being a lying, arrogant, hypocritical drone. If you express your grief, you're a whiny subhuman scum who needs to be beaten up, instead of being an honest human being venting your emotions in a wretched world where noone cares about you.
One character I would like to add in this category is Milhouse from the Simpsons. This mostly was due to what was seen in the episode "The good, the bad, and the drugly." What happened was that he and Bart, at the beginning of the episode, pulled a significant prank on their school in which only Milhouse was caught and, after refusing to rat out Bart, was suspended for one week. Bart recognized what he did as a friend and promised, in return (since he was grounded) to visit him everyday. However, Bart soon fell in love later on in the episode and forgot to do so.
The above are pretty justified reasons for Milhouse to be upset at Bart (him breaking his promise as a friend to him). However, the manner in which he handled being upset was pretty destructive.
What happened was that, every opportunity he had to interact with Bart, he pined, sulked, and jabbed at how horrible he was for breaking his promise (though he never said this directly or otherwise acted in a more direct manner), and very heavily implied details from Bart's past that Bart had made clear to him earlier that he didn't want brought to light in front of his girlfriend (this was when Bart began spending more time with his girlfriend). In other words, in addition to being upset at Bart, he also was jealous that he started spending more time with his girlfriend (and was offended Bart was so quickly trying to be someone do different then the person he previously was). Again, what is in the parenthesis are justified reasons for Milhouse to be upset at Bart. However, his clinging and harassing behavior (blending in a mural at a dock for the purpose of following Bart and his girlfriend, just for the opportunity to imply all the terrible things Bart once did right in front of his girlfriend) exceeded the injury Bart inflicted. This also is the point when the pressure Milhouse was putting on Bart became too intense for him (causing Bart to confess about his past, which then led to the breakup).
I'm not saying that Bart confessing shouldn't have happened. I'm saying that it happened too soon (Bart didn't have the chance and ample time to solidify his new behavior so his girlfriend would be able to have a solid base with which to recognize his sincerity, To also confirm, the reason for bringing up Bart's interactions with his girlfriend is that she really did inspire him to make sincere efforts put forth actions and behaviors with which he could take personal pride and build further self-respect (he was demonstrating signs of true success in this area before Milhouse intervened with them).
What was particularly upsetting was that Milhouse wasn't sorry or in any other way acknowledged that his actions caused his best friend heartache. The main reason for this is that somehow his own sensitivities and heartache (granted breaking the promise was compounded by the fact he already suffered low self-esteem for justifiable reasons and really does have to live with terrible parents) somehow overshadowed his friend's feelings. Bart had to be the one in the end who did all of the apologizing (Bart himself didn't acknowledge that Milhouse's actions really did throw him off course to what could have been a better life for him).
It was already established that Milhouse had low self-esteem and had real problems for justified reasons. Unfortunately, this episode established in Milhouse that he could also be very selfish, clingy, pressuring, and possessing a double standard (expecting total sympathy from those with which he cares while at the same time not returning that sympathy when his own actions clearly harm those with which he cares). I guess I'm saying that I lost respect for his character since he doesn't even acknowledge that his clinging and resent cost his best friend both his first girlfriend and a possible change for the better in his life. I'm also suggesting that, in terms of problems, Although I'm not a mental health professional, this may possibly suggest that Milhouse may be developing the beginnings of Histronic Personality Disorder (or another type of Personality Disorder).
Outside of Lisa's more serious developing problems being cut off a little too abruptly (it actually was very well done how it started and was unfolding), in addition to Milhouse's downward spiral, this really was a well written and well done episode. The reason for mentioning Lisa is that it was kind of unclear how she recuperated from her depression (or if she did).
I guess I'm also saying that I don't like scenarios in which only one party is expected to apologize when both parties are clearly accountable for something.
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I apologize both for some of the grammar errors in the above description. Does someone know how to edit posts made on this forum?
Also, I made an error in describing the name of the episode. The name of it is "The good, the sad, and the drugly."
Milhouse is bullied (even by teachers and the other adults in the town), his parents are always fighting, he can't get a girlfriend, and his first girlfriend was chased off by Bart. Also, he got in trouble for Bart's prank and Bart wouldn't even visit him (like he promised). Bart was wrong that time.
The examples section of this page is getting ridiculously out of hand in terms of subjectivity and natter, and this is probably one of the most subjective tropes there is. What say we cut it and make this an example-free trope?
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Because then people start spamming the rest of the wiki with this trope.
I agree that this trope is far too subjective for most examples to have full approval.
I recommend it be relegated to the Dark Side. It has no more business being on this side than wallbangers do.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
(Avatar by Coffee)
Moving the following X Just X example here, so someone who knows Soul Series could take a look.
- Patroklos Alexander from Soul Calibur V. 'Nuff said.
"The titular protagonist of Honor Harrington novels tends to Wangst a lot about the fact that War Is Hell and the burden of responsibility she carries as a commander. You expect, that 14 volumes of interstellar carnage should be enough to develop a more detached attitude, or even - considering, how often her subordinates tend to die horribly around her - outright sociopathy and hatred towards the enemy. But no. "
>You say that like it's a bad thing
I think this example is not wangst because it is a valid feeling, it is not overly prominent, and it is rather justified, and better than the alternative. And thus should be removed. Thoughts? Not sure if i should just delete outright, and attempting to avoid convo-in-the-mainpage.
I thought about editing some of the examples for being subjective, but as I read through them I realised there were way too many! I doubt any of the examples are approved by everybody, which means they become possible examples needing the word 'arguably' at the beginning - which is one of the Don't Do rules when adding an example... *shrug*
I thought that Wangst was a portmonteau of 'wank' and 'angst' in that it's a really self-indulgent form of angst that doesn't really accomplish anything.
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Well, that is how it is perceived by outsiders not sharing in the misery. O'course thanks to the complainer "always being wrong", this is pinned on the person angsting and not on the ignorant douchebags casting judgement.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
That's close to what I thought when I first saw the word, only I thought it a portmanteau of 'wang' and 'angst', which seemed very specific... ;)
How do you seperate angst from wangst? Is there a sliding-scale one can use as a reference or something like that?
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It's kind of a subjective thing, as well as situational. Some people might say that a character was acting appropriate for the situation, some might not.
If you're gonna say something, try and make sure you're right first, not afterwards.
Looking to normalise it? Standardise it? Ain't gonna happen. That line can fall anywhere... from those like myself who will pretty much sympathise with any misery (but I can't tolerate happy people), to folk who consider any other person's sadness but their own to be an affront to nature. Best just to stick with what you already feel and accept that this trope varies drastically from one person to the next...
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
It shouldn't need to be said, but this area needs some cleaning up. With so much back and forth, "he's angsty", and "no, he's not, here's why" makes this look like any other teenage anime forum.
Maybe if we cut out much banter, and strip each down to their bare comlaints, along with explaination.
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My compliant right here.
From Ultimania:
"Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona, but with the support of his friends he regains his true self and grows as a person."
"These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth."
"The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness."
All of Cloud's "angst" moments happened before his plunge into the Lifestream, but regardless of whether it really was wangst (he really did just beat up Aerith and was indeed going to do it again, he was right to worry and the other major time it seemed everything he thought he knew was a lie) but it's All There in the Manual that these moments belonged to a completely seperate entity from Cloud. It wasn't psychological trauma, it was physical control of his brain. His Coma too was induced by him getting hundreds of years of knowledge flushed through his system. His own insecurities and such had next to nothing to do with Coud's problems.
Ok, haven't been on this page for some time, evidently.
This page STILL needs cleanup. As I said a few good months ago, too much "he's angsty", and "no, he's not, here's why".
Point proven by the riveting fellow who had to counterpost by proving s/he wasn't adding to the Wangst clutter by adding to the wangst clutter. Protip - nobody cares about Cloud. It adds to clutter.
Protip - nobody else cares about clutter either.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
I find it hilarious that there is no troper tales for this.
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Lie, the if you go on Troper Tales for anything negative there's always a whole bunch of people wangsting over themselves.
Well then you don't so much need a Wangst topic so much as to look at any other negative trope, right? Sounds like the problem is solved to me.
Edited by Jeroic If you're gonna say something, try and make sure you're right first, not afterwards.
Except for self deprecation, no one would post on a Troper Tales entry for this.
Unless people want to do it so they can talk about times they've witnessed someone acting wangsty.
I think we all know enough to realise that no matter how harsh our lives might be... nobody gives a damn, and they will likely get annoyed at us if we start trying to share our respective miseries. Basic nature of the Internet right there:~ millions of people all suffering alone.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
I think we need to get rid of the wangst is not sadness warning because what can be considered small and justified sadness to one person can be considered huge and unnessesary wangst to another.
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Wangst is sadness to the person crying. It is just a noisy, distracting spectacle to everyone else. And if you think about it, that actually justifies the person's misery in a sense.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
A lot of people get annoyed by how Harry Potter acts in the Order of the Phoenix, in regards to his Wangst. However, considering that the Dursleys deprived him of food, love, and basic needs, and he had someone murdered in front of him, then he was subsequently tortured by the murderer, THEN he was betrayed by someone he considered an ally but was really working for the Big Bad, he really just focuses on the things that would entitle him to some information about what's going on with the war against Voldemort. He had plenty more to "whine" about, even before book 5. If anything, Harry's wangst is an explosion of a whole bunch of negative emotions manifesting themselves in a topic that is only part of the problem. While Harry's home life isn't the focus of the books, the fact that he never mentions the Dursleys outside of "I hate it there" but focuses so much on his need for information, and thus helping to protect/save the Wizarding World, makes his behavior a combination of Wangst and awesome characterization.
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"A lot of people" hold fictional characters to downright unreasonable standards, probably as a projection of their dissatisfaction with their own miserable existences. Let them be annoyed. Maybe somebody else will be annoyed at their being annoyed. And the chain goes on.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
Edit: Didn't notice that basically the same thing was on the above descussion.
Edited by ablackraptor
And then the main page image was changed/cut down because...???
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Yeah, that's what I want to know, that was possibly one of the greatest trope images of all time (Of ALL TIME) and now it's been cut down? Why?
Not many people realize, 50 Cent is half man, half cossack. - Ross Noble
I want to know too. The fact that there was NO discussion about it WHATSOEVER is confusing as all hell.
What are you guys talking about? The history reaches back decently far and there's no record of the image being changed.
I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
What are you guys talking about? The history reaches back decently far and there's no record of the image being changed.
I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Oh yes it was. The image originally posted was this
◊, plus it had a footer text. Then it was cut down to just the center frame. All we are asking is, would the person responsible for the change mind to explain why? Or can we go back to the old image ipso-facto without any unconformities going on?
I'd imagine the original image was changed because it was too big. But then again it could be because the text was edited to make it seem like unjustified wangst while its original context (in which the entire page was JUST crying noises) it is a pretty realistic reaction to being the lone survivor of a mass slaughter of everyone you care about.
"Do what thou wilst shalt be the whole of the law." ~ Aleister Crowley
It is an edit of a page from Gantz Chapter 90. The text is changed to make it seem like he is wangsting over something totally unjustified, but in actuality it is Kei's response to watching pretty much everyone he cared about being brutally slaughtered in front of him and discovering that he was the only survivor.
Page visible here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/gantz/v08/c090/12.html
Anything but artist
Seems like any song (or band who has a song) about anything not related to life being awesome is considered wangsty, the main page says wangts is angts gone wrong, so what's the deal with a song about crying because your girlfriend died?
To name an example, 99% of Linkin Park's songs are about how horrible life and everyone around you are, thus it can be labeled as a wangsty band. On ther other Hand Sonata Arctica's songs, while can be interpreted as angsty the actual lyrics (and the melody that goes with it) are far from anything angsty.
The same could be said for all the other example categories.
I'm not a native english speaker, please forgive my bad grammar and misspells.
Probably being a broken record here but I'm deleting the part about Cloud having greater Wangst in FFVII then Advent Children.
Just as a reminder this is what Cloud wa like after the Angst Coma:
Cloud: ......I'm the reason why Meteor is falling towards us. That's why I have to do something in my power to fight this thing.
Barret: Good!! Then you're gonna keep fightin' to save the planet!?
Cloud: It's like you always told me, Barret. There's no getting of this traing we are on.
- Later*
Cloud: I may be mistaken, but...... Doesn't it feel like we're missing something?
Cloud: Phew—! WE did it! The Huge Materia should be at the bottom of the sea by now. Let's continue the search...
Cloud: Hey, Cid! What're you doing!? There are generations of knowledge and wisdom inside the Materia. We're gonna borrow their powers and save the planet from Sephiroth. There's no way that we can lose the Huge Materia. You understand that, right?
Cloud: How would I know? But that's no reason for us to just let him go! We're goin' to Midgar and fight Weapon! Come on, let's move!
Now I could go on, but just try to imagine Cloud's AC saying some of thi stuff and tell me it's the same character. And that's ignoring the fact that in the Reunion Files Kitase explicietly said they changed Cloud to a more sombre character for us to recognise with. Not that I think anything in AC is actually Wangst, mind you. When you and your 10 year old adopted son contract a uncurabe disease that'll end you both soon, you have the right to mope around churches.
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Cloud, when confronted with his serious psychological trauma in FFVII, went into a coma that required someone mind dive to rescue him. Before that, Tifa had to walk on eggshells so as not to set him off. He's not a giant pile of OMG ANGST in the game, but he's not super happy for most of it either.
Compare to AC where Tifa apparently feels his stable enough that she can tell him to get over himself and all he does is ride on a motorcycle and mope quietly. I personally felt that was a marked improvement in his angst reaction.
But we all must admit that ANGST is part of Cloud somewhere.
The part that is MINDCONTROLLED BY JENOVA, you mean? I mean, a lot of the entries have good reason but when you are eing mindcontrolled, it's kind of out of your hands, don't you think? And when he went into coma, it wasn't because of psychological trauma, but the physical trauma of getting flushed through the Lifestream; by comparison Sephiroth who is noted to have incredile will, wasn't able to come back up for several years and when he does, the lower part of his body had dissolved.
Besides Tifa thought he could fend for himself, but he only got better thanks to Aerith, Vincent and Marlene.
I suggest to change the image trope,the image is not an example