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From the description:
A common twist, in Twincest—and in Brother–Sister Incest in general—is Surprise Incest: for a couple to fall in love, only to find out later that they're related. (See genetic sexual attraction.) The fact that Separated at Birth is already a common twin trope gives rise to this. How far their relationship goes before they discover this generally depends on whether the plotline is supposed to be humorous or tragic.
While it's a common enough subtrope for Brother–Sister Incest, is it really common enough to be in the description here for Twincest? Because I cannot think of a single example, and CTR+F "Surprise Incest" on the page source only brings up a single one. That's hardly "common". The fact they look identical would make it a lot less likely for me to believe this happens a lot (and if they're not identical, then it's really functionally the same as Brother–Sister Incest, anyway).
There\'s another issue with the whole Twincest thing, it\'s never mentioned anywhere in the anime that the Demon Sisters are actually **twins** to begin with, as far as I can recall. They don\'t look identical. We only know that they\'re siblings, so describing them as twins seems like an error.
Digger and Mabel's behavior counts as subtext I'll grant, as does their sleeping in the same room but not actual twincest. Give me a kissing scene or sharing the same bed and I'll say yes.
I figured out Leia was Luke's sister from Empire alone. The idea that the Incestuous vibes contradict it being preplanned go out the window when you remember Dune was an influence on Lucas in making Star Wars.
I was in the process of splitting the page when I noticed the Fan Work heading had many of the questionable examples already, so rather than make the (largely-redundant) split I changed "Fan Works" to "Fandom & Fan Works," since most of its examples weren't "In one or two fanfics..." but "This is a common theme amongst the fandom and its output despite being non-canon." Moved all the other non-canon examples there, at least the ones I could pick out, and moved a few to more suitable folders (the Yuuzhan Vong myth, for example, is specifically Stars Wars mythology, so it was moved to the rest of the Star Wars examples, which also included novel references). May go through the new Fandom folder and organize by media just to tidy it up.
There are a few broken links, but maybe later.
Yep, totally organized by media.
There is a still running German soap opera called "Verbotene Liebe" (forbidden love) that started around the story of a twin sister and brother who were separated by birth and who fall in love when they meet as adults. It's supposed to closely copy the core story of an Australian Soap Sons and Daughters that ran from 1981 to 1987 according to wikipedia. I don't know what happened to the couple there.
On Verbotene Liebe:
(1) Twin brother Jan and his sister Julia were separated at birth by their mother. They meet again at age 20 and fall in love. Only when Julia needs a bone marrow transplant they find out they are related. But they remain in love even though they can't be together. The story ends when just as they plot to run away together Julia is lost at sea (with it being open whether she ran away, comitted suicide or whatever). They never had sex on thow e show but came close a couple of times (French kisses, heavy petting in underwear etc).
(2) 15 years later the show recast the character with new actors, now with them living in Spain (where brother/sister incest if legal). Julia has a family, Jan is a priest now, but they still desire each other. The story hasn't concluded yet, but it looks like they are heading for them actually going through with the relationship this time.
(3) On the same show twin brother Tristan became romantically/sexually obsessed with his sister Helena (unlike Jan and Julia they always knew they were twins and grew up together) and slides deeper and deeper into insanity including a split personality and a suicide attempt which culiminates in him trying to murder his sister's boyfriend and attempting to rape Helena in a Near-Rape Experience (he pulls back when he sees his face in the mirror). He got cured by soap opera magic healing, him and his sister made up and became close again and both found happiness with other people which seems to end this storyline (both are still on the showm but it seems like the incest part of their story is over). The incest desires were onesided all the way through though they features fantasies of his of kissing/sleeping with/marrying his sister, kissing her while she was asleep and the mentioned Near-Rape Experience.
Kalini, Alexlayer, stop fighting over the pic. It was this sort of behavior that got Brother–Sister Incest locked.
It's not that I want to fight, I'd just rather that the pic that was chosen over a discusion some time ago - and for good reasons - to stay there. And sorry if I sound arrogant, but the reason the Ouran High School Host Club pic better is because, differing from the other one, you can tell the characters are twins.
If a discussion had already settled the use of that picture long ago, so be it. I just disliked the specific content, since I tend to hate Bishonens like the bubonic plague.
Which has nothing to do with whether the image fits the trope. If the only reason you want to alter something is because of your personal prejudices, you probably shouldn't do it.
Personally, I'd object to it more on the grounds of the Twincest being an in-universe acknowledge gimmick, not a canon fact: That they're closer than most is a given, that it's sexual is a fandom response. Ideally the page pic would be something that made the Twincest obvious ("Here are twins, and they are 'cestuous"), but that might just invite more porn.
The majority of examples actually seem to be het or twin sisters rather than the yaoi slant of the trope's article; in fact, many of the male/male examples encompass the fandom's reaction to the pair in question rather than what actually happened in the characters' canon, i.e. even if Vergil stabbing Dante made you feel all tingly, it sure wasn't having that effect on either of the guys, unless you're counting possible numbness in Dante's limbs due to all of his blood rapidly emigrating out through the stab wound.
If fandom examples are going to be included, can they at least get their own folder/section after the canon examples, the way other pages have trope examples followed by folders/a section for trope subversions, ect? So canon examples = Die Walkure to A Song of Ice and Fire to It's Always Sunny in Philedelphia, to the porn/music examples, to things like Fatal Frame II/Higurashi (where the Twincest element is there in official work) and Trigun (where you really can't ignore the phallic imagery, no matter how hard you try). Then the fandom stuff, a la 'They seem to be really close/hate each other, so...' can go in its own section, for the ones where the fandom thinks it's really, really obvious but there's no real indication that's where the canon lies.
Also, some natter. Eh.
tl;dr : It Just Bugs Me, and I really don't think M/M is the majority of twincest in anything except fandom. Will probably start editing the page soon myself: First for natter, then for non-examples, ect. Just wanted to see what everyone else thinks.
I agree with the criticisms of the article you give, and support any actions you may take in dealing with these problems. Without a doubt, examples without direct, official support from the original work should be listed separately, if at all.
I think the problem here is we have two tropes within the same article.
There's the fiction trope of incestuous twins, and Designated NPC is right to see this as largely a heterosexual (generally Half-Identical Twins) and girl/girl matter, in canon.
There's also the fandom shipping trope, which is about the fascination of fandom for shipping twins, mostly brothers, without much support from canon, simply because the fans in question find it hot.
Should we split them? Should we at least acknowledge that there is a split within the page? At least the latter, I think. We're dealing with two things here; trying to stitch them together is ill-fated, I think.
I'd suggest slip within the page. That would be enough.
Split the page, I really agree (as if, Fan Yay isn't enough). About WHY the (canon) example mostly heterosexual (despite everybody freaking knew, Het Is Ew), I think because Yaoi Twincest in canon push the border from Forbidden Fruit to Crosses the Line Twice/ Refuge in Audacity...YMMV however, this is just my personal opinion.
EDIT: SORRY, DOUBLE POST
EDIT: AAAAAAAHHH!!!! FUCKING SCRIPT CRASH MADE TRIPLE POST!!!
I've never thought that twincest isn't good enough to make a film about it. In fact here's a brother and sister twins having good fun video.
Hoping this is the last of them. — macroscopic
sorry, this was meant to be a new topic
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