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Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: The Chick - locked? , started by Arianna on Jan 10th 2011 at 8:04:07 AM
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: A suggestion to redefine:, started by BlackHumor on Feb 10th 2011 at 3:57:48 AM
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Merge Proposed New Crowner 11/23/11, started by MangaManiac on Jul 26th 2011 at 3:12:17 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Needs Help, started by KarjamP on Aug 8th 2012 at 9:16:33 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Misused, started by Kaosubaloo on Jul 26th 2015 at 10:37:47 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Needs Help, started by acrobox on Jan 3rd 2016 at 11:19:54 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Unclear Description, started by acrobox on May 20th 2016 at 12:43:29 PM
What exactly is the Chick? As far as I can tell, she's basically some sort of mix of the Heart and the Smurfette Principle, so it shouldn't even be its own trope. And how exactly is Leia the Chick? I mean, she's the only lead female in the trilogy, but aside from that? So is the Smurfette Principle simply the principle (as the name suggests) while the actual Smurfette in question is the Chick? I really don't see why those would be seperate tropes. It says that the Chick is one of the members of the Five-Man Band, but if it's a boy, he doesn't count, and it's suddenly not a Five-Man Band? What kind of arbitrary rule is this?! Sure back in the day, it was almost always a girl, and the only girl, but times have changed. In this day and age, I don't think the gender of each team member is set in stone like that anymore. Can't we merge the Chick with the Heart?
see the the sandbox for a clearer description of the trope. Or this article that is also linked in the sandbox.
I wouldn't mind merging The Chick with The Heart but even in this day and age I've only seen one example of a Five-Man Band that has a boy in that position.
Just given that the page is still locked, I thought I'd throw in in lieu of an actual edit that re: Mass Effect, characters like Thane fill the trope's role better than Jack does (for fuck's sake, according to the actual character type description write-up, Jack is straight-up The Big Guy and there's little reason to call her The Chick in a trope sense unless the definition of The Chick is deliberately redundant with The Smurfette Principle; this trope does seriously need to be updated [I do like the write-up by the below troper, since it does seem to clearly cover everything meant by The Chick as a trope] or merged with The Heart).
You can ask in the locked pages thread linked from Locked Pages.
Said the same thing about Jack over 3 years ago. Neither she nor Miranda remotely match the trope description (that would be, like you said, Thane, and Kaidan would also fit), and are openly contemptuous of anyone who does, but hey, women, therefore The Chick. Honestly, the other two examples - Kasumi and Tali - don't fill this role either. And since Mass Effect has a hell of a lot more than five people in its main crew, there's no Five-Man Band in the first place. But nothing's been done to get rid of all the square pegs in round holes on this page in years, so we might as well just keep pretending it doesn't exist because it's locked. You ask me, the entire Five Man Band set of tropes needs to get the scorched-earth treatment, but it'll never happen.
once again, the page needs to be updated somehow. I am going to raise the issue again in the forums.
Should The Chick be updated/expanded to match the other FMB tropes (i.e. overall description + common variants/playing withs/personality types + common powers/abilities/attributes)
As an example of what that might look like:
The feminine member of the Five-Man Band, even if this is accomplished by virtue of being the Token Girl. She's the member that shows the most emotional intelligence, spirituality and heart.
The Chick is also often related to another member of the team to make her emotional connections even deeper. She may be someone's love interest, sister, or daughter.
Since many early examples of the Chick were just 'the girl' of the group, the role is often conflated with the leading lady or most prominent female member of The Team who is (usually) not The Hero. As gender roles have evolved overtime, the Chick's role in how she is able to express herself and contribute have changed as well.
Common variants of the Chick include:
Powers and skills common to the Chick include:
As casts have gotten more diverse, you may see more than one of the above types active at the same time, the same way you may have both a master strategist philosopher smart guy, and an Omni Disciplinary Scientist smart guy. If they don't share the role evenly, the one true Chick is the Light Feminine or Girly Girl among all the options.
thoughts? open to edits and discussion.
Seems more like a question for the forums than here.
Be that as it may, Septimus Heap, I offer one little supplement:
Her Evil Counterpart in the Five Bad Band is, of course, The Dark Chick.
which forum. TRS? or FMB clean up?
I dunno. Are you proposing a definition change? May want to discuss it in Trope Talk first.
its not so much a definition change, its just expanding on whats already there to look like its sister pages.
its a format change more than anything
Re cut request: This is a spurious cut request. Please decline with prejudice.
It's been, like, months, I think if anyone was going to dissent they'd have done it by now. List dat shit.
I know this probably gets brought up all the time, but this whole trope is kinda horrible and doesn't make any sense. It's whole existence kinda reeks of a Double Standard. Not a double standard as in pointing out that these tropes exist in media, but a double standard of this site itself. It says right there on the page that The Heart is basically the same damn trope "but for males" which makes no sense when either trope can be male or female.
So we have two tropes that mean and accomplish the same thing, with absolutely no difference between them whatsoever, only one is dripping with sexism. The fact that there's no one damn example on this page that doesn't include the line "she's this trope, but also does all this other stuff too so she's really only this because we've designated her as such and not because she actually fills that role in the story."
Maybe I'm just bitter because Leia is somehow the default example of this trope. Which perplexes me because I always saw Leia as Supporting Leader. I mean seriously, she's the defacto leader of the Rebellion through all three movies, her main strength is diplomacy, she's tough as nails and withstood Cold-Blooded Torture during her imprisonment on the Death Star and didn't give up any information (she did talk plenty of shit to her captors even after said torture though, and even with the threat of her people being genocided she still put the Rebellion over her own interest) and she engages in every firefight in every movie! The instant Luke breaks her out of her cell she takes charge of the situation and gets them to safety. She has to almost literally be dragged out of the Rebel HQ on Hoth even when it's being bombed to crap. She leads the charge to save Han. She's the first of the group to sneak into Jaba's Palace and almost succeeds in freeing him, and afterwards despite ending up in an outfit that's the epitome of fanservice, ultimately is the one who ends up killing Jaba (in a surprisingly brutal way). Then on Endor she's the one who softens the Ewoks up to make way for an alliance that ultimately wins the war. She leads the strike team against the shield generator, and is prepared to go out in a blaze of glory taking as many Stromtroopers with her as she can even after getting shot.
If the only thing that requires being leveled with The Chick status is the only differently gendered individual in the group (which the description of the trope itself disputes) then yeah, but out of the three main characters Leia is the one who actually physically does the most for the war effort against the Empire. Leia is the default example of this trope, and yet is also systematic of every reason this trope makes no god damn sense. In that fashion I guess she's the perfect example for it, then...
Curly Brace from Cave Story doesn't make sense as this trope either. There's not even a Five-Man Band in that game.
I think everyone (except Fast Eddie) basically agrees this trope is balls. Why do we still have it?
The Cave Story entry has been removed.
Looks like most people agree the Heart is a clearer descriptor, across the years of discussion about it. Leia was not the Heart of the group, and there wasn't really a five man band. Doesn't make sense. I just added The Chick to the cut list to propose cutting it.
It's pretty ridiculous. The Heart is the same thing, and the name of this trope just leads people to add female examples who don't fit. I mentioned before that Jack, of all people, from Mass Effect is about as far away from being The Chick as a character can get. Whoever posted that one also just seemed to list every major female party member in the cast, for no other reason than the fact that they're all female, as far as I can tell. Pretty sure this entire page has been forgotten, considering how long it's been locked and the problems with it ignored.
I wouldn't say this page is forgotten, many series main pages still list this as a trope. Additionally, most pages include Five-Man Band as a trope, often shoehorning things in, even including inanimate objects as Five-Man Band members in stories and media which feature less than five characters.
Can anyone come up with a concrete definition for this trope? I've seen it used as either The Heart or Team Mom, the one girl in the main cast, or the non-action Girly Girl.
"The one girl in the main cast even when they're not the one girl in the main cast."
There is a Laconic to the trope, however it really doesn't fit a couple of examples, and there really aren't a lot of listed examples to begin with... And needless to say, almost all entries of The Chick on series' Main Pages don't fit that Laconic, either.
The following are Zero Context Examples and need to have expanded information about why the character fits the trope. Once this is done, they can be added back to the page.
Hmm... apparently I made a namespace mistake when making that edit request. For those wondering, it's meant to be Series.Twenty One Jump Street
Who in his right mind put Jack from Mass Effect down as an example of The Chick? She doesn't "double" as anything, and she's possibly the least diplomatic and controlled member of the cast. Even in the third game, when she's mellowed out somewhat, she's not even remotely an example. If being a woman is all it takes for a violent tattooed criminal who's actively contemptuous of so-called "feminine" traits like empathy, compassion, patience and forgiveness to be The Chick, we seriously need some clarification on what this trope is.
When has it ever been said that a Five-Man Band is four men and a woman?
I don't know. I think someone pulled that last paragraph out of their arse just before it got locked.
EDIT: Oh, they did. Someone called Fast Eddie. Awkward...
That's stupid. Five-Man Band is about the dynamic— if The Lancer and The Chick are both girls, it's still the same freaking trope.
Evidently someone has forgotten that Tropes Are Flexible.
This "Fast Eddie" person is obviously not understanding how this site is supposed to work.
Fast Eddie runs the site. If you wish to take this up with him, feel free, but you won't be the first and The Chick's still female.
(As a side note, Five-Man Band does now allow two girls.)
Well we have an unfortunate disagreement.
If The Heart is exactly what The Chick does, only male as the trope page implies, what's the deal with having two of them? That would make The Heart The Same But More Specific, and as ^^^^ said above Tropes Are Flexible.
I smell half-baked example curbing (and this is from someone who thinks that Five-Man Band has way too many examples).
These pages aren't really in good shape at the moment, it has to be said. A poster above has even referred to this page as "forgotten."
From the main page to The Hero:
Once again, there seems to be a problem with the way the role of The Chick is defined. Even though we the tropers keep insisting the role "isn't necessarily Always Female," many a main article that brings up The Chick will treat the trope as though it's the Always Female Token Girl Distressed Damsel. There are too many Action Girl examples* Tsubaki, Liz & Patti Thompsan, Starfire, male examples* Matsuda(kind of), Peeta Mellark, Double D, and even some where she isn't even in the role at all (Maka from Soul Eater, Katniss Everdeen and Johanna Mason from The Hunger Games* who are really The Hero and The Big Guy, respectively, and of course Princess Leia who is sparking major debate for removal of the page image).
All I'm saying is that, there needs to be some cleaning up on what defines The Chick. Similar to Mary Sue (and I am not implying the two tropes are the same, though they seem to have similar defining issues), debate over whether it's Always Female, if the main traits are that the character be the feminine, least active or just the odd guy out.
To add to the above, I think it goes without saying that insisting in the Playing With section sites that if "Alice" turns out to be "one badass tomboy," it obviously carries some...well, you get the picture. As in, "if a character is cute and girly, then she's definitely The Chick, and if she wants to avoid being a silly prissy Neutral Female, then she must be an ass-kicking boyish type. Too bad she'll probably die..."
EDIT: Why is this trope treated like a strictly feminine thing anyway? Granted, the trope itself is pretty hard to define, but more or less seems to be "the odd man out in a Five-Man Band". The Chick could be a tomboy, an Action Girl, or even a Non-Action Guy (heck, maybe a guy who's just Real Men Wear Pink), but you'd never know that from the Playing With page. We've already discussed that the page image should be changed, as Princess Leia's Character Sheet states her to be a subversion of this trope.
We've got a YKTTW going for a different fifth member of Five-Man Band, of which The Chick would be a subtrope. Many Five Man Bands do not have any female members, and many others do not have a female who fits as The Chick, so the new fifth role could solve that problem. It would mean that The Chick is not a core role, although it could be used as an auxiliary role in bands where the new fifth is not already The Chick.
There needs to be a a reminder reminding people that this trope is not necessarily a diss and attempt to portray said character as useless or The Load.
It's emotional support, not The Smurfette Principle, though, despite what's in the last paragraph of the description. The Five-Man Band can have more than one female, and the Action Girl who kicks ass with the group would be another member.
The trope itself is very ill-defined. Other pages state that the chick "need not necessarily be female", but when the main article consistently uses feminine pronouns and marks "male examples being The Heart" (paraphrased, mind you), plus the way it's worded in the Playing With section (where a subversion being that Alice is a kickass tomboy, which opens up a whole new can of worms) would easily lead most people to conclude that this trope = useless female girly-girl so the other guys look straight.
I think that last part of the description is just wrong, it's contradicted all over the place.
EDIT: Checking the history, Fast Eddie added that bit along with nuking all the male examples on the page. But that didn't extend to changing the Five-Man Band trope to reflect this definition.
What? Okay, now I'm really confused. Double D from Ed Edd And Eddy? Peeta Mellark in the second book of The Hunger Games? Matsuda from Death Note? They would all qualify as this trope for different reasons, but last time I checked, they're male. So maybe someone should take it up with Fast Eddie and seriously consider working over some changes.
I don't think the issue people have with this is that The Chick is necessarily useless — it's that the trope is badly defined, and some of the examples (such as, obviously, Princess Leia) are just plain bad examples because they don't fit. Once upon a time, this wasn't an exclusively female trope; it just meant the character was the most traditionally "feminine" of the group, female or not. But since people don't read trope definitions before posting, there was this "The Chick = The One Girl In The Group, Regardless Of What She Does" thing going on. Then there's The Heart, which basically fills the same role in the band and is mostly redundant. So now the trope itself seems to have changed into "The Heart...but a girl." So it's just a mess. Nothing to do with the character being competent or incompetent. Best way to resolve it would be to just get rid of this altogether and move the examples over into The Heart.
Perhaps The Chick should be removed as a Trope altogether and entirely replaced with The Heart
On Buffy The Heart is one of the only males.
Okay, in the Playing With section, it seems to take the attitude that The Chick is an Always Female girly-girl who can't fight. If she's an Action Girl, or can actually manage herself in a given situation, then she instantly doesn't count.
I guess this trope is kind of hazy with criteria, since a few examples exist of The Chick being male in a Five-Man Band consisting of at least two females. Then there are examples of The Chick being an Action Girl or a tomboy.
Maybe since Tropes Are Flexible, not every case is going to be an Always Female Distressed Damsel. It could also be said that just because a character is The Smart Guy doesn't mean they have to get the highest academic grades, but they can still fulfill this trope by way of being the most logical or savvy member of the group.
May be an example, but there's no information related to the trope. A discussion of combat abilities (for different versions of the character) is tangential.
Since this page is locked, can someone remove Scarlett and G.I. Joe from the comics section of the article? There's nothing about the character that fits the description of The Chick - other than actually being a lone female, which isn't what this trope is about.
You have go to the Edit request for a locked page thread.
So why is the Topic locked?
I think it's locked because Fast Eddie decided the trope is Always Female, while many tropers feel that it should be a unisex trope, more-or-less The Heart. Originally, this trope was unisex, including characters such as Ma-Ti from Captain Planet were included, and the role was defined by interaction with the team. Now, the role is essentially any female character who isn't an Action Girl, whether they are part of a group or not.
Here's a question; I'm working on a co-ed sentai story that has two female leads, along with three male characters as the main cast. There's two characters who both have traits associated with The Chick:
The former is actually the more offensive battler of the two. Which one would technically be The Chick?
Even without that note on the end, I'd have to say the latter. Reason being: you listed him as The Runt at the End and The Bumblebee. Combining the latter Trope with this one reminds us that this Trope is not necessarily bad.
The former would likely be classed as The Smart Guy. (Which nullifies Type 4 on The Bumblebee for the above.)
Does the Pink Knight from Castle Crashers count as The Chick?
I'd like to propose a pretty good Chick from the land of Webcomics: Credenza of Archipelago. She packs a decent punch, but is still thoroughly outclassed by pretty much everyone else in the group, as well as literally all the major antagonists. Her main role is collecting and motivating more powerful heroes. While I'm at it, I may as well Nth the motion to unlock the topic...
This really needs to be unlocked, and like many, many people have said, Leia is not a Chick.
Agreed. This page has more issues than I've seen in any other article thus far. If the admins haven't unlocked it yet, then it probably means that they don't know how badly it needs it.
BTW, my take on the Star Wars example is that Luke is The Heart and the socially-adept C-3PO is The Chick. Leia doesn't really fit The Lancer archetype as well as Han Solo, but it's the role in the Five-Man Band she fits best.
Still have major issues with Leia being the image for the Chick, even with a qualifying description. She is a subverted example, but should not be the page image, as she fits a grand total of about 10% of all the descriptors of the Chick trope listed in the trope description section. Speaking of Chick descriptors, there are too many of them, making this trope too narrow and causing way too many cases of Square Peg, Round Trope (Leia and the above examples included). Another vote for unlocking.
Not to mention Star Wars isn't a Five-Man Band at all, and The Chick really doesn't exist outside that.
Wanted to ad a note re: Left 4 Dead. Louis and Rochelle (the Chicks for their respective survivor groups) were also intended to be The Everyman by the L 4 D development team. In both cases, they were too blank (to the point that Ro is a bit of a Scrappy. Both of them have been given some love since The Passing and The Sacrifice, respectively.
...can we unlock this topic now? And I'd like to pull Tsunade and Hinata out of it as an example, both have shown they're action girls.
You're right. While the Chick can be an action girl, Tsunade is definitely not Chickidh. Hinata, on the other hand, is a Chick that can fight. This page needs to be unlocked so these issues can be addressed.
That's why we have the hybrid section. It's for characters who play dual roles or have strong aspects of two types, such as Amy (chick/big guy post SA 2), Sapphire (chick/big guy) and Isabella (chick/smart guy).
In addition to that, between all these things and the fact that the female of a group is always referred to as The Chick on individual pages... it should really be stated that The Chick is a role on the team, not a gender, and anyone who doesn't match the criteria written here is not The Chick.
Someone needs to unlock the page so the image can be changed. Helterskelter has it nailed. If anything Leia's a subversion. She's not in love with the Hero(not romantically at least), very competent in a fight, and in terms of encrouagment she's more Well, Excuse Me, Princess! than The Chick. She pulls off Samus Is a Girl in Episode VI. In that same film she denies being spiritual.
In the image she's holding a gun when the first two line say the Chick can't fight.
How about we get a discussion going for a replacement? I nominate Lacus Cylne from Gundam Seed
Doesn't fight, but draws people together(Three Ships Alliance)
Supplies weapons for the Hero
Falls in Love with the Hero
Pulls the Hero out of Heroic BSOD with lots of TLC
Commands the ship that fights with the Hero's Humongous Mecha.
I'd say she fits the bill much better than Leia
First post: I agree that someone needs to clear up a few things regarding this trope. A lot of people tend to think that The Chick means "that one member of the Five-Man Band who's a girl," when in reality, that's not the case. I fell into this mistake once, where I wrongly assumed that the quiet snarky Token Loli in a three-guy-and-one-girl-band was The Chick, when in reality she was more The Lancer. * She rarely bothers to be the peace-keeper, and really doesn't follow the usual formula for this trope, save for being the "odd one out" and the only sane man, and of course the one girl in the group.
Maybe we need to make a clearer laconic summary?
What's more, "feminine" is used as a description to the role, when feminine relates directly to gender. I believe a different word should be used.
Is there a reason why there's two of each folder? Did there used to be two types or something?
The second set of folders appear to be male examples - which you'd have noted if you were paying attention...
Why is the page locked?
Also, Scarlett from the G.I. Joe comic was not "The Chick" in the least bit. In fact, none of the Joe Ladies were. So kindly take that one off.
And, while you are in taking that off, why don't you put Dorothy? She is the only girl in the group, she just wants to go home, she almost never takes action and she managed to reunite her own Ragtag Bunch of Misfits in like three days...pretty please?
And maybe Snow White too...If there is no inconvenience, of course.
The folderising is messed up. Please add Folder-ending tags over the subsection headings to fix it.
I understand that the caption says Leia isn't the most perfect example—but more than that, she's a bad example. She is clearly able to handle herself, and her Five-Man Band is less obvious than some better examples. Yes, she gets kidnapped—but so does Han Solo. She's not particularly caring or most obviously the heart...C-3PO is a better example of that.
I think perhaps we should choose a better example from the Five-Man Band page. The caption should give a quick idea of what to expect on the page—Leia is obviously a bad example because, yeah, she's a Chick, but not a quintessential The Chick.
EDIT: I forget to add—I understand that the other Five-Man Band page has Luke, Han, Chewie, and R2 as their pictures, but I don't think that's necessary either. They're just not the best examples. I don't think that readers are so stupid that people from different Five Man Bands will confuse them. I just hesitate at the Star Wars examples because they don't form an obvious team as some others do...Chewie is only seen in relation to Han as his Lancer, R2 doesn't really behave as The Smart Guy, and they never really act as a coherent group.
I concur with helterskelter. Leia is not an example of the Chick. If anything, _Luke_ is more of an example of the Chick. Think about how he wins his final battle, _by not fighting and appealing to the good in his father_. I mean, really!
Among the Star Wars protagonists, I would cast Chewie as The Big Guy, R 2 D 2 as The Smart Guy, and C-3PO as The Chick. In "A New Hope," Luke is The Hero and Han is The Lancer while Leia is a subverted Distressed Damsel. In "Empire" and "Jedi," Han is The Hero and Leia is The Lancer, while Luke exits the Five-Man Band entirely; he spends most of those movies off on his own, and while he does rejoin the group for a while in the midsection of "Jedi," it's clear that he no longer really fits.
C-3PO? The Heart? *falls out of chair laughing. Gets back up and seated.* The Load, yes, but he isn't The Heart. Again, that's either Leia or Luke himself. If there even is one. Dausuul's point is well taken, however. He becomes more of a "Replacement Member" during the first two acts of Jedi (Replacing Han in Act 1 and Leia in Act 2).
EDIT: In fact, I'm wondering if we should retire this Trope, split the examples as relevant, and promote The Heart to the #5 spot. I strongly doubt that the bands will suffer much for that adjustment and those that do may not really be bands at all.
Speaking in terms of FiveManBands, C-3PO is the one that shows the most concern, caring, or sensitivity for the others. He's a peaceful negotiator and gets himself into quite a lot of trouble. He isn't actually an example but he is better than Leia. If Leia had his personality, she would qualify as the Heart.
Anyhow, I think I might move this to Image Pickin', since other people seem to agree.
Can The One Guy in an Amazon Brigade be The Chick?
Xander from Buffy is.
I'd like to discuss this first before posting it: Is Dr. Will Zimmerman of Sanctuary - The Chick?
Could the distinction between The Chick and The Heart be clarified?
This wiki seems to say that The Heart is a unisex role for any team while The Chick is the sole female member of the Five-Man Band who acts as the moral center.
However, I kind of feel like The Chick should be merged with The Heart as they are still too similar. If the merge were to happen, The Heart could have a paragraph explaining how this role was almost always played by a woman on a five-person team in older works.
Someone should remove examples of The Chick who doubles as another member altogether; it comes across as misuse.
The Heart and The Chick are two separate roles in team dynamics.
The Chick sandbox page makes that more clear It's just a matter of enough people wanting it to go through.
The Heart can be an aspect of many roles (The Chick, Tag Along Kid, Magnetic Hero etc all can be The Heart, but they are also all distinct roles.)
Like how The Hero and The Leader are separate. Or The Lancer, and Number Two are separate.
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