Follow TV Tropes
NERV is an example of State Sec
Some have argued that NERV is a NGO Superpower. However, by the setting of Evangelion, its clear that the United Nations is no longer a NGO, but has underwent radical reforms making it into a planetary government. It has it's own military forces, and is supreme over its member states.
As such, NERV is not a NGO, but a government supported (at least at what it first appears as) agency with vast independent powers.
Well, to put it bluntly, you're wrong. Saying that the UN is a "planetary government" is pure supposition on your part. The fact that the organization wields so much power, that it has a force of mechas and the authority to boss around sovereign states, is exactly what DEFINES it as an N.G.O. Superpower.
The United Nations isn't a nation. Thus, is can't be a State Sec.
A State Sec doesn't have to involve only nation-states. It needs:
1. An offical claim from an offical authority. The governing authority can come from city-states, supranational unions, galatic empires, etc.
2. Semi-autonomy, in which other branches or agencies of a government can not interfer with it, thought it still answers to the leadership.
3. Have siginifcant poltical, military, intelligence powers etc. that surpasses most paramilitary organizations.
And it's not just a supposition on my part. Not only does the series hints this, but the manga states: (From Secrects of Evangelion, Neon Genesis Evangelion Vol. 6):
"...The UN gained in the aftermath of that catastrophe a heretofore unseen level of power and influence that made it, for the first time, an agency capable—if it deemed so necessary—of action independent of the major surviving world governments."
In addition since the UN is really controlled by SEELE, it no longer fits the descirption of the real world UN. The power now lies in a top secret cabal, and are practically the rulers of the world.
And since NERV answers (ideally that is) to SEELE, who control the government, NERV is not a NGO. NERV is conected to a government organization, and is not independent from it. An NGO Superpower or any NGO shouldn't be directly controlled by governments. A degree of autonomy is required to be a NGO.
Not to mention that NERV's full name is "UN Special Agency NERV", and is referenced as a "paramilitary" force.
Honestly? This is a reason to start an Edit War? God...
Well, one could be avoided if others provided constructive input on the matter. Or are willing to act as mediators.
Can someone explain the Fan Dumb example on the YMMV page? Most of the NGE fans that I've seen don't act stupid regarding the show.
I think the trope listing categories need at least a short explanation of what does and what does not fall under each category.
Case in point:
What's with people just adding shows they like to the 'compare with' section? I understand Gasaraki, Bokurano, and Rah Xephon, but FLCL? Really?
FLCL was created as a way for the Gainax staff to cool off after Evangelion, and included a clear Shinji-expy in Naota. There is some connection there.
Yes, but aren't we supposed to 'compare' things that are similar in terms of plot, themes, setting, etc? The other series in that section are all Humongous Mecha shows that have either symbolism or a darker take on the Giant Robot genre(or both). FLCL should probably go under 'contrast with'.
EDIT: Okay, I made the changes.
The last edit:
In all the years I've been following Evangelion, that's the first I've ever heard of this...source?
I'm pretty sure that editor just made some crap up. BAHLEET IT.
I am very confused as to why the commentary track is considered Love It or Hate It. Who hates it? Why?
Okay, who removed the 'not pictured: mental stability' joke in the caption, and what on earth for? I have noticed elswhere that pictures in pages describing a work, as opposed to a trope, are far less likely to have funny captions and when they do, they tend to vanish.
It's ridiculous. What, was that joke not funny? Would NGE fans have been offended by it in some way? Was the Monty Python reference too obscure? When I first visitied this page, the picture and the caption instantly conveyed to me information about the series and why it's notable while simultaneously directing me to another interesting part of the website and making me laugh. Isn't that what TV Tropes is all about? Same goes for the zippers joke in the Kingdom Hearts page - removed for being 'just another Tetsuya Nomura likes zippers joke'. And? So what if that joke is made a lot? Surely that makes it even MORE important that it's included in the caption - if it's been repeated to the point where it's nearly a meme, then a link to the 'Zipperific' page is something someone looking at KH for the first time should definitely click on, yes?
The practice of reducing captions in works pages to dry factual observations is ruining the website and must stop now. I am putting the joke back. Please, nobody remove it unless if they can come up with a really good reason or a funnier joke.
Picked up volume 12 of the manga last Saturday, finally read it yesterday...wow. The damn thing ends on a ton of cliffhangers. That leads me to my question - has there been any word on if the next volume is going to be the last, or if there will be a volume 14? Considering where the different plot points left off, I'm not sure that the story will be complete with just 6 or 7 more chapters.
er... isn't this the wrong place to discuss this sort of thing? Although I agree with you.
Am I the only one who feels that the page quote is a little inappropriate? After all, it essentially defines Eva only in relation to another series - and one that's arguably not even as well known.
I feel like we could do better. That said, I don't quite dare pick something else from the quote page myself either.
Just quote the Hedgehog's Dilemma. It is, after all, one of the core themes in Eva and almost all the characters' defining trait.
I don't have a problem with the quote; it makes, IMO, a valid point about the subversive nature of both shows, and it speaks something about the entire show rather than one central theme.
I agree. I enjoy the quote, it serves as a bracer for what is to come.
But you say that as people who have seen Twin Peaks, don't you? What about all the people who haven't?
Actually, no. I knew about Twin Peaks before I saw even one episode of it (and I've only seen one episode of it). Hell, The Simpsons did a parody of Twin Peaks in the second part of "Who Shot Mr. Burns".
We make obscure anime references all the time—what's the problem with making a reference to a well known television show from the United States?
Would anyone mind if I added something about Evangelion basically having the first character page on tvtropes?
Of course, if I remember correctly, it wasn't a single page, but still...
You can if you want, but I'd put it on the character sheet instead of the main page.
Out of idle curiosity, does anyone know what the song is that seems to play whenever a Unit goes Berserk?
I think it starts playing... during the Zeruel battle, maybe? when it cuts back to NERV and Aoba screaming something about the Angel.
These are the "Unit-01 wrecks shit up" themes:
The Beast II
I think the second one played for the Zeruel dinner.
When a Unit Goes Berserk, a track called "The Beast" plays. The variant for the Dummy Plug IIRC is called "Normal Blood".
Thanks, it was "The Beast" I was looking for. You earn one free internets.
Did the "in one sentence" bit really have to go?
The newly-added "To others..." section in the intro seems a bit extreme in its negativity, and is twice as long as the "To some" section. Should it be removed or trimmed down?
I'd strike the "Other directors" line but leave the rest.
I dunno, I think it should be trimmed way more than that. I get that this is a divisive series and definitely agree that that fact should be acknowledged, but the passage in question here borders on becoming an outright rant. Again, note how much longer it is than the segment allegedly describing the show's positive qualities.
If you meant to say "Other critics", then yes, I can sort of see it working with that sentence eliminated, though the entire passage is still unmistakably written in the voice of the show's Hatedom. If it could express the polarizing nature of the series without coming off like an angry rant, I think it would be better off.
Yeah, that's what I meant. *facepalm*
I agree about the trimming- this article is very long and dense. We should get into the complicated stuff in the trope listings rather than make the description so overwrought.
In pursuance of this goal, I've enacted several major page changes. The description has been completely changed so that it's more brief and readable. Additionally, I have reformatted the trope listings to follow the still-experimental Gunnerkrigg Court model of separating tropes by category before alphabetizing them. The "Meta" and "Themes" section more-or-less cover the majority of material removed from the original description. The original page markup is still in the history for any who think my changes went too far.
I like it, it looks really good. I see some things that need tweaking...shouldn't be anything major.
EDIT: One thing that needs to be done is to somehow work Death and Rebirth and End into the description.
Yo. So I'm quite new around here, don't flame me if I sound dumb. I had added an entry under the Determinator trope to this page.
One part of the entry has been kept, the one about Asuka acting a deconstruction of this trope.
However, there were two more entries about Shinji acting first as an aversion, then a subversion of this.
I'll repeat it here, so we can discuss it before putting it back if you all feel like it :
"At first averted by Shinji. He fails to meet the expectations set up by most Humongous Mecha and shonen anime heroes, and every time he tries to be such a hero, it backfires. Subverted in End of Evangelion: knowing these tropes, the audience keeps waiting for Shinji to toughen up and save the world at the last minute, despite the very bad odds. He does not. Or does he? However, it is partly reconstructed in Rebuild of Evangelion (at least for now)."
I didn't know about the ending of Evangelion, but hell, I really kept waiting for Unit-01 to go berserk and butcher and eat the mass produced Evas, or Shinji to man up, or anything else, even after Asuka dies. In this sense, there really is, to me at least, a subversion of the Determinator characterization trope at play in Eo E.
What you describe about Shinji doesn't sound like an attempted Determinator to me. I'm not sure what the applicable trope should be, but it isn't Determinator.
I chose this trope because of this quote from the Determinator trope: "In shonen anime, it's comparatively rare to find a main character who isn't one of these."
I can live without the subversion part actually, as it is quite subjective. However, it is clear to me that Shinji is a deliberate aversion of the trope. Compare him to Kaneda (from Akira) who is a very straight example of the trope. Even when battling a God, armed only with a laser gun that eventually runs out, even when receiving fire from a military satellite, Kaneda never has any doubts about the fact that he is going to make it.
Shinji on the contrary, is never sure about anything and is afraid all the time. Moreover, a kid like Shinji is the exact opposite of Kaneda. Whereas Kaneda is a rebellious biker, a school dropout, who gets the women, looks cool, is a natural leader, etc. Shinji is an introspected, obedient, dorky, humble, overall gentle kid and as charismatic as a doorknob.
Really, I don't know how the writers could come up with a character like that without making it on purpose. Shinji is an aversion not only of the Determinator trope, but of most if not all the characterization tropes in Shonen until the time it came out.
It might not be as clear today, because of the impact Evangelion had, nowadays we get more and more salarymen/dork/non-bad-boys/whatever characters in Shonen, that are worked into more heroic roles (yes, I'm looking at you Roku).
Discuss again !
Edited to fix some typo and to add that:
Moreover, even if it seems like a weird point to make, one should look at his characterization in Rebuild to see how characters like Roku or the kid from Xamd Lost Memories
helped open the door to a revisit of Shinji.
Well, when you put it that way, he now seems more like an inversion than an aversion.
OK. Then I'll wait a while to see if anyone has anything else to say, and then add something along the lines of "Inverted by Shinji, as is whole characterization is an in inversion of most of the classical shonen hero tropes".
Moreover, I haven't checked the page yet to see if anyone has added anything along these lines: to me it seems, that there is some kind of gender reversal at play at the level of these characterization tropes when looking at Shinji and Asuka. Asuka starts as a straight exemple, then a deconstruction of the hero archetype. Whereas Shinji acts more like The Chick and inverts the trope.
Discuss moar ?
I was the one who originally removed the example, as it didn't seem to fit the trope. It still doesn't fit to me. The closest I can find is that it might be a subversion of Beware the Nice Ones— you keep expecting Shinji to try to fight back, but he never does. Until his Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds moment, that is.
Still, we're talking about the period in the middle, right? Where Asuka is getting killed and everything's going to hell, and Shinji is doing nothing, right? I know what you're getting at, and I feel the same way, but I don't think Determinator is the right trope. Subversion of Beware the Nice Ones, maybe?
Exactly what is the Artistic License - Biology entry referring to? I don't remember any particular mention of NGE going into any particular depth about Angel "metabiology".
Well, I kind of remember that they speak about angel DNA after analysing the corpse of the the fourth angel, Shamshel. My memory is not so clear about that.
They say that it is very similar to human DNA.
It seems really weird, specially when it appears that angels are beings made of another kind of matter althogether. They're stated to be made of "solid light".
So how do you code DNA into this "solid light" ?
I don't think they meant similar in the sense of "much of it is identical"; I remember them saying something along the lines of "while the actual chemistry is quite different, the structure and placement of the 'molecules' is highly analogous to human DNA".
Seems we will have to check. Also, now I wonder what is said in the original (as opposed to the translation).
The Pettanko entry needs to be addressed. Asuka may be the least endowed of the female characters, but she definitely doesn't qualify for the trope since it requires the character to be angsty about being flat, which she certainly isn't. I was going to rewrite it, but couldn't think of exactly what to say. Also, is Rei really a Pettanko in Raising Project?
Also, as mentioned under Your Size May Vary, Asuka's breasts vary wildly in size and proportion Depending on the Artist. Perhaps they are like puffer-fish, expanding when threatened and filled with poison.
How is Asuka a Pettanko in the first place? She's nowhere near flat, IIRC.
She wasn't, that's why I brought it up in the first place. I think the current A-Cup Angst covers the issue a lot better.
One problem: I don't remember anyone of her age group (namely Rei and Hikari) looking bigger than her in this department, and IIRC, it's either Word of God or All There in the Manual that she's a C-cup by her first appearance in episode 8, which should put her out of A-Cup Angst's purview (a B-cup I could stretch it, but a C...). Plus, she doesn't look that much smaller than say Misato or Ritsuko - that is, ignoring official artworks that have no true relevance to the anime proper itself.
Maybe we should have a couple of screen-caps for comparison/verification.
To summarize my opinion:
From a character design perspective, and excluding Off-Model depictions * Which obviously cannot be taken with any degree of seriousness or reliability., Asuka and Rei have the same bust size.
Also, Asuka's not qualified for "an inversion of A-Cup Angst" for the following reasons:
Any naysayers with a solid counter-arguments, or am I free to proceed with removing the entry?
The anime is so inconsistent that it's hard to make a good judgment, but I have never seen Asuka and Rei as having the same bust size, especially if you look at Sadamoto's artwork. Also, there are these artbooks: Groundwork of Evangelion: The Movie 1 and 2 (NSFW) which were released by Gainax, and from the covers it's obvious that they aren't equal. I see what you're getting at with the argument against the A-Cup Angst entry, and if there aren't any counterarguments I'd be fine with removing it.
Okay, I actually meant something along the lines of "the size difference is negligible, and may be influenced by the character designer's own subtle biases towards the characters". How long do you think I should give for the counter-arguments to come in before I make the change?
Mmmmm...no idea, really, there's not many people that regularly post here. I'd say a week at most.
Okay... Two more days from now, and then I'll remove the entry.
Removed both A-Cup Angst and Asuka's part in Your Size May Vary. The latter should have some concrete proof to back it up; a couple of images to compare would be sufficient. Be aware, however, that Off-Model does not count.
Can we add, like, a big, ALL CAPS header instructing potential editors to put Rebuild tropes on the Rebuild page? I'm sick of cleaning up spoilers off the page.
I put one up, but I dunno if it's in the right place; move as needed.
Yeah, I don't know the "proper" location for something like that myself, so I'm not going to touch it, but ideally it should be somewhere where people who are casually editing the page won't miss it - probably as close to the top of the page as possible.
We could us the "percent sign" markup so that it won't show up on the actual page.
Mmmm...I'd prefer it to be visible on the main page, but we could also stick another one in the examples list that does use the percent signs for double emphasis.
Is anyone perhaps concerned that this article heaps praise on the series while ignoring the many many many many many people who hated it? I'd think that we'd wanna be a little more neutral.
Yeah. I like the series, but...I gotta agree with you here.
What are some specific things that need to be addressed?
I'm starting to warm to the show as well, but:
There's a lot of speculation in the opening: "Evangelion is in fact a study of..." "these films are believed by some to be..." etc.
Biased: "Evangelion is beautifully crafted..." "Some of the most technically impressive animation ever done..." etc.
And it's just kind of long. I'd alter it so a brief summary about the show and it's impact, but if I didn't discuss it here, I'd be worried someone would just alter it back the way it was.
Imma go after this line in the description:
"Some of the most technically impressive animation ever done"
^ From what I've read, it had some of the most technically impressive animation of its time. Considering the heavy use of still frames and the fact that it did, at times, fall prey to Off-Model * episode 6 and 17, it really would not be accurate to call it "some of the [best] animation ever". * and rebuild's animation pretty much blows it out of the water anyway It's good animation [at times], but not the best.
Also: I agree that the description is pretty long, but...well. To compare (I cut out unimportant stuff about other film and OVAs):
...On the other hand, Revolutionary Girl Utena's description is just as long if not longer than Evangelion's, so. Apart from trimming away bias, I'm not sure how much of a need there is to shorten it.
The "technically impressive animation" line did need to go in light of the Off-Model stuff. I don't have much of a problem with the intro as it is other than that, but if anything is going to be cut I'd say it needs to be:
To make it less cluttered, I placed the "Other Adaptations" into a folder.
...Can we get rid of the paragraph that starts with "despite the dark and gruesome ending"? It's little more than gushing. ^^;
I dunno that we need to get rid of it altogether, but it does need to be reworked.
"The drill could have been intentional — after all, the Angels are meant to be surreal, reality-warping "characters". Their design is intended to be more bizarre and unsettling than logical, and they hardly seem to abide by the laws of nature and physics we're accustomed to."
This is a stretch. The reality-warping doesn't come into play until Leliel arrives—the most this Ramiel does is shoot lasers and send down a drill. Relatively mundane compared to what we see later on. Rebuild Ramiel certainly qualifies as surreal and reality-warping, yet his drill turned in the right direction. Considering the episode's overall animation quality or lack thereof, it's probably simply an error.
I dunno, like I said on the main page, the concepts behind the Angels are so intentionally surreal that I wouldn't be surprised if this were deliberate. On the other hand, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this were a goof, either. So, I'll give you this one.
I'm Jewish and I don't see the Unfortunate Implications in SEELE. There's a similar entry on the trope's subpage, so I'd like to address the other "implications" mentioned there: I've seen several anime where sizable noses are given to Westerners, period. Not just Jews. Take a look at this sketch.◊ The specific stereotype is "hook-nosed Jew"—SEELE noses are of varying sizes and shapes.
Considering his namesake, Mr. Lorenz is more likely to have been intended to bring to mind Nazis than Jews. The fact that the bullet point mentions this kinda contradicts the alleged implications.
Finally, if one is going to say that they fit many anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, how about elaborating on that? Equating SEELE with various theories is a bit of a stretch.
I'm not necessarily saying I believe that SEELE is an anti-Semitic caricature, but you have to acknowledge the similarities. SEELE is a council of twelve (12) old men with big noses and German-sounding names who secretly control the UN, think they're doing God's work, and have a Kabbalah-enhanced plan to bring about the end of the world. Each of those individually correlate with a variety of anti-Semitic stereotypes and/or conspiracy theories, but more specifically the all-powerful council of old men calls to mind The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which was a bestseller in Japan) and the beliefs of Aum Shinrikyo, which is acknowledged as an influence on the mythology of Eva. (Yes, a Japanese cult somehow managed to work anti-Semitism into its belief system.)
Mmmm, alright then. You may add it back in.
Um... thank you?
I've removed a number of tropes from this page and relocated them to the character sheets, since that's where they belong. I did most of A-D, but didn't have enough time to do the rest. (Homework and all.) Er, I also made a "multiple characters" section for the sake of Kyoko and Naoko—not so sure what to do about the tropes applicable to multiple characters, such as Dysfunction Junction.
If anyone could help with moving the tropes, it would be much appreciated.
I'd say any tropes that relate to multiple characters should stay in the main page.
Should Do You Want to Copulate? be moved to Rei's section or left in the main page?
Might as well leave it in the main page.
Community Showcase More