Hi - I removed the first additional sentence because it seemed not to make sense in context:
The second explanation for the trope posits why (predominantly Japanese) artists are “appropriating features from the exotic other”, and so what was added - “how white people *see themselves*” - doesn’t seem to make sense, as the artists themselves aren’t white, and so are very unlikely to be projecting how another race sees themselves into their own work, but rather how *they* see said other race (remember, this is a speculative explanation as to why the artists apply features and colourings unassociated with their own race). The paragraph then goes on to explain why this may have occurred (the pervasiveness of the post-War Eurocentric fashion/beauty industry etc).
In terms of your second sentence, added as a conclusion, the note on features and the phrase "subset of people" is too narrow. Most Westerners that aren't immersed in the world of manga/anime and its conventions would look at, say, Naruto, and come to the understandable conclusion that he's a young white boy due to his features and colouring. I don't see that only a "subset" of people would come to this conclusion, but rather *anyone* less familiar than anime/manga fans might be with the medium and its artistic conventions.
I'd suggest that the concluding sentence of this paragraph already conveys what you're trying to express, but in a way that's a little more understanding of the layman:
"Western societies tend to view ethnic Caucasian features as "default" or "featureless", so when they see unrealistic depictions of humans they subconsciously assume the depiction "looks white" unless there's specific racial stereotypes attached."
Adding anything after this is labouring the point, I feel.
I hope that helps,
Lex
Edited by lexii
I agree with Lex. The simplified first sentence is leagues better. The original parenthetical was at best confusing, if not outright nonsensical.
And the cut concluding sentence just feels... nitpick-y and almost condescending. I would think anyone who can realize that different white people do look different and that anime characters don't look exactly like people don't need that spelled out.
But please leave edit reasons, especially when editing a description.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
The thing is while it depends on the character, the vast majority of the time Japanese artists aren't appropriating features from white people. Most anime character's facial features don't resemble Caucasian features, and the eye/hair color is taken from the entire spectrum of possible colors. This paragraph implies that most or all anime characters are "appropriating white features", but I know from experience that if you were to actually go to Japan and ask people why anime characters are made to look Caucasian they would probably give you a funny look and have no idea what you're talking about. That's purely a misconception that some people have, which stems from the self-image that *some* white people have about themselves and/or racist stereotypes they have about the features of Japanese people.
While definitely very far from a majority opinion, there are some people out there who insist that all anime characters are meant to look "white", regardless of if the character has blonde hair (which 98% of anime characters don't have in any case). This paragraph seems to be addressing those people based on the concluding sentence, but the intention could definitely be clearer. In fact, if you were to delete the last sentence it would seem like the paragraph IS intentionally trying to make that point, which is almost as ridiculous as it is racist.
The paragraph just seems poorly written with or without the changes. It makes the assertion that "zannen hafu" is a common phrase in Japan, which is a very provocative assertion even if there was a half-way credible source, but there straight up isn't a source for it. As someone that speaks Japanese and has lived in Japan for several years, I have never heard or read any source that mentioned that phrase before. I don't see any results on Google when searching for that phrase in English, and the only result in Japanese is a half Japanese/Czech (i.e. white) person describing themselves as a zannen haafu, which is a direct contradiction to the usage of this phrase in this article. It seems like whoever wrote that phrase made it up to support a certain narrative. As others have pointed out on this discussion page, the article overall seems to be making some problematic assumptions about the way that Japanese people think or how certain races "look" like. That may not be the intention of the article, but people on this discussion page and elsewhere have pointed out how it can be interpreted this way.
At the very least, this paragraph needs a change to make its tone less problematic/borderline racist, which would be consistent with the overall point that the concluding sentence is getting at.
Edited by telomere
Hi - thanks @Larkmarn.
I've responded to you @Telomere below:
In terms of your first point, the two "explanations" are speculative, though solid. The anime look undoubtedly derives from external influences (mostly post-War), whether that be Disney, Max Fleischer cartoons, or the Western film and fashion industries. Arriving with these sources included varying hair colours, eye colours, the penchant for retroussé noses and large eyes. Prior to these external influences, the art-style in Japan depicted very different beauty standards, as the current text explains, in a way that is *opposite* to anime/manga. It's the external source material that started the almost unilateral conventions we see nowadays (bar super-realistic manga/anime), and the explanations here are solid and without prejudice.
There will always be fringe people (as you say) who dine out on the concept of whites depicted as an "ideal", but this article isn't interested in them and they shouldn't be given oxygen. To maintain balance, however, it's important that we (as fans of the genre) are understanding of the layman (those for whom this medium is unfamiliar), and examine the visuals presented honestly, and without condescending the unaware. If you were to ask someone unfamiliar with anime conventions whether Naruto and Usagi Tsukino were Western or Eastern, the majority of those asked would say Western, understandably. Fans of the characters would of course know otherwise, but only through specific knowledge of the conventions used to design them. As a site, we delve into pop-culture and analyse it (sometimes to death!) - not in a way that's meant to be prejudiced, but frank and honest. I would cite the examples of French Jerk, Evil Brit and Scary Black Man to present this site's honest description of archetypes that are potentially sensitive, but nonetheless exist in pop-culture. The "explanations" write up is therefore fine as is.
However, having read your longer point on the "zannen hafu" paragraph - this is an area in which I am completely unfamiliar, and of course has more sensitivity around it, so if you feel that this could be rewritten in a way that is more accurate (or removed entirely; is it relevant?), then please share what you think is best? (This is the paragraph I am referring to, below. I suggest all else is fine as is):
"*There exists a fetishization for half European/half Japanese people. Japanese fiction utilizes the But Not Too Foreign trope quite heavily when it comes to Japanese/white mixes — who are by far the most represented group of hāfu (half-Japanese people) in Japanese media. White hāfu, and Japanese people with some amount of white ancestry in general, are stereotyped to be classy, beautiful, multilingual, but also not truly a part of Japanese culture. Non-white Japanese mixes are sometimes called "zannen hāfu" or "disappointing half-Japanese", and endure much more discrimination than white hāfu.*"
Lex
Edited by lexii
Okay, that's something else entirely and is a paragraph that I see absolutely no reason that needs to exist.
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Agreed @Larkmarn - I think it should be cut, as it's irrelevant to the trope and potentially troublesome.
Edited by lexii
The sentences about "zannen hafu" should definitely be removed, it doesn't really have to do with the trope and has no basis in reality. It seems more like something a bad faith actor would come up with to promote their narrative.
I agree that the viewpoint of people who think that a character with blonde hair and blue eyes is white (such as Naruto) should be mentioned in this article. But the way the paragraph is currently worded, there's no mention of specifically blonde haired/blue eyed characters, and given that the article up to this point was just about "Japanese fictional characters" it's easy to assume that the paragraph is talking about anime characters in general.
The way the first two sentences of the paragraph is worded seems like it's presupposing that all anime characters DO look like white people, then attempts to explain why that is the case. But the last sentence explains why some people might have that misperception, which seems inconsistent with the first two sentences because it's contradicting the original presupposition. My original edit added qualifiers that would clarify that this is simply an idea that some people have, not necessarily reflective of reality. This would make the first two sentences consistent in overall message and tone with the concluding sentence (which is the point of the paragraph).
The sentence I originally added to the end of the paragraph doesn't necessarily need to be there, but there should still be some edit to add qualifiers to the first two sentences. I have seen others on this discussion page and elsewhere on the Internet misinterpret the meaning of this paragraph, and it would be a simple change to add a qualifiers to clarify the overall tone and intent.
Edited by telomere
Hi Telomere.
I think we're all in agreement (well, the three of us!) that "Zannen hafu" should go for irrelevancy.
However, I'm afraid I still disagree with your second point. The introduction to the article describes where the convention comes from (external influences), and then goes on to explain why, therefore, people could come up with the conclusions that they often do.
I think @Larkmarn and I share the view that the additional wording you originally added created a layer of elaboration that's potentially confusing (talking in circles) and unnecessary.
Lex.
As I have explained, the paragraph begins by explaining a viewpoint in a way that presupposes the viewpoint is the truth, despite it being a fringe opinion that has little basis in reality. But then, the conclusion of the paragraph refutes the presupposition that the first part makes, which makes the paragraph come across as strange and poorly written. This article has been misinterpreted many times by many people, and this paragraph is probably a significant reason why.
Your reply to me seems as if you think I want to delete the paragraph or significantly change its contents, but that is not the case. The original edit that I made doesn't need to be there, but it would be a very simple change to add a few words to the beginning that clarify that the paragraph is from a CERTAIN point of view rather than being written as if that point of view is objective fact.
I don't see any reason why someone would be so opposed to the addition of 2 or 3 words to a sentence just to clarify the intent of this poorly written paragraph. Rather than being "confusing" or "unnecessary", it would salvage the confused message that the paragraph currently has.
I'm going to remove the part about "zannen hafu" for now, as the people in this discussion have agreed it shouldn't be there.
Edited by telomere
Hi again, thanks for removing the "zannen hafu" paragraph - definitely for the best! :)
If I'm right in thinking where you're referring to, the sentence prior to the 'explanations' section is currently:
"People (rightly or wrongly) typically fall back on one of two explanations for this trope."
I believe this current wording suggests that what the reader is about to read is proposed, rather than presented as fact.
I also don't believe that the current write up expresses a fringe opinion. It's generally accepted that the manga 'look' was originally inspired by external (Western) pop-cultural sources, and the national artstyle shifted quite dramatically. And as I've previously explained, most people (whom I've referred to previously as 'the layman') outside of fans of the anime/manga genre would have no idea of the current conventions of 'statelessness' and understandably make conclusions about the characters based on a visual scan.
That being said, maybe share on here what you're proposing it should say and we can discuss further?
Lex.
Edited by lexii
It's reasonable to conjecture that anime was influenced by Western cartoons, but saying that the art style was influenced by Western cartoons and saying that the art style appropriates "white features" are two completely separate concepts. Walt Disney designed his characters to emphasize neotenic features commonly found in mammals, not mimic Caucasian features.
Outside of your limited examples (Blonde/blue eyed characters), most people do not assume that anime characters generally look "white". I have discussed this topic with quite a few people in real life, and I have never encountered a non-Western person that believes that. And amongst non-white Westerners, the vast majority don't believe it either. Amongst white Westerners it varies quite a bit but there definitely is no unanimous opinion. And I've found that out of those that DO initially think that, many of them realize it comes down to their own internal biases after an honest discussion (which is the point of the concluding sentence of the paragraph). It feels unnecessary to explain this because of how obvious it is, but if you were to compare any real white person to a generic anime character's face there would be no resemblance beyond the absolute basics (2 eyes, a mouth, etc).
I'm not calling the current write-up a fringe opinion, as the conclusion it presents is completely different from the first sentence. But believing that anime characters look like actual white people (which the first sentence presupposes) is indeed a fringe opinion with no basis in reality.
The change could be as simple as adding a single word to the first sentence.
Change this: "The second is the idea that the artists are appropriating features from the exotic "other" (in this case white people) into their character designs either for their own interests or for marketing purposes."
To this: "The second is the idea that the artists are supposedly appropriating features from the exotic "other" (in this case white people) into their character designs either for their own interests or for marketing purposes."
This makes it clear that the paragraph is merely presenting a specific viewpoint, not presupposing the viewpoint is true. This is already what the paragraph is doing, but the way it is written doesn't make this clear until the last sentence. With this change, the intention and tone of the paragraph is consistent from the start.
Edited by telomere
Hi Telomere,
I think the solution you've suggested above (the addition of the word 'supposedly') is sound, fair, and hopefully puts the matter to bed.
Thank you for a lively, interesting discussion,
Lex.
why is this written as if this is an exclusively japanese phenonium name one cartoon where you could easily tell the race of a character
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: The redirects to
, started by Edmania on Dec 20th 2010 at 7:22:48 PM
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Ambiguous Name, started by Chimaera on Jun 11th 2012 at 6:41:07 PM
The examples on this page are a huge mess: Way too many of these feel like cases of non-Japanese people trying to judge the ethnicity of a fictional character by standards in western media. Viewers automatically assuming a race-neutral character design is white isn't a case of this trope, it's a case of that viewer's own cultural assumptions.
I think if this is going to be a useful page, examples need to be cases where the creator has specifically mentioned trying to invoke an aspect of being racially neutral in their character designs. Otherwise this is just going to be left up to the very subjective assessment of individual users.
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TBH, I'd like to see an example of the problem as you describe it. A lot of anime tropes on this site are cases of "non-Japanese people trying to judge" elements of the trope, because this is a site from the West and is written as if explaining the tropes to a Western audience.
I'm of the mind that the fastest way to completely ruin a trope is to unnecessarily make it require Word of God for examples, so I'd really like to see why the page needs it.
TBH, I'd like to see an example of the problem as you describe it. A lot of anime tropes on this site are cases of "non-Japanese people trying to judge" elements of the trope, because this is a site from the West and is written as if explaining the tropes to a Western audience.
I'm of the mind that the fastest way to completely ruin a trope is to unnecessarily make it require Word of God for examples, so I'd really like to see why the page needs it.
I'm with Nubian here. It isn't exactly something that we need Word of God to point out that the blond-haired, blue-eyed Sailor Moon isn't exactly your average Japanese schoolgirl.
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The reason I'm suggesting we need confirmation of creator intent is because whether a cartoon character "looks Asian" or not is a very subjective call on the part of the viewer. This is further complicated by the fact that the artistic shorthand used to convey race varies from one culture to another. Oddly enough Sailor Moon is actually a proper example of this trope because her character design uses racial signifiers common in Japanese media to denote "This is a foreigner" (Blonde hair and blue eyes) but the character herself is explicitly supposed to be Japanese.
For an example of the subjectivity of this trope, I'd point to Yotsuba&!. The titular character is deliberately designed to be racially ambiguous; she's the only character in the series with green hair and there are instances of other characters wondering if she's Japanese or a foreigner when they first meet her so she's definitely an instance of this trope. At the same time, I've seen people who register Asagi, the oldest of the three neighbor girls, as white because she's portrayed with lighter hair that some viewers register as being blonde, however Asagi is in no way supposed to be racially ambiguous: Her other family members all have dark hair and are drawn in a style that more readily registers as "Japanese" to the average viewer and there's no indication both within or outside the series that she was intended to be read as anything else.
As a corollary: Why is this trope not also being pointed out as readily in western media? There's a number of series I can think of that take a racially ambiguous approach to their character designs: Nickelodeon/Disney's Doug, The Mr. Men series, even shows with less fantastical character designs like Over the Garden Wall could potentially be argued as being racially ambiguous in the same way, yet we're not populating this page with instances of western cartoon characters who recognizably avoid being racially ambiguous.
Honestly, I think if we can't get creator confirmation we would at least need a work to feature characters who are of different races in universe but who don't have character design signifiers that visually call this out.
Wouldn't it be more helpful to have a Default Human Being Trope and just merge this with that one? Mukokuseki isn't really a memorable name. The only reason I even found this trope is because I searched "default human being tv tropes" on Google. Searching "default human being" on this site's search feature doesn't even lead to this trope.
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Agreed, I'm not really convinced this is a specifically Japanese phenomenon, it feels a lot more like non-Japanese people projecting their own racial biases onto racially ambiguous characters.
Should there be a Useful Notes page here? (preferably written by a Japanese person, or at least someone who's lived there and who has explored the phenomenon beyond just making assumptions.) Because I see that there's a lot of writing here that goes above and beyond in explaining the trope, and I think makes the page look a bit clunky.
Edited by Bornstellar
So much American-centrism, so much usage of the "C" word and one of the most misuse of "Asian" ever. Tv Tropes...........WHY?
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... huh?
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What, exactly, are you talking about, Ukonji?
Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.
Could you maybe elaborate in a way that lets us know what you're actually talking about? As-is, your complaint is pretty much gibberish. If there's a problem, we'd love to address it. As is... well, we can't, since we can't figure out what your issue is.
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Isn't it obvious? She obviously thinks this trope is fake and doesn't have any relevance in media stereotypes. It just reeks of racism. I'm sorry, but it could use some serious editing, most of the so-called "Race Tropes" could.
Edited by EgoMan
So what is it you want? Edit it, or cut it?
Let's just say and leave it at that.
I agree that this trope is super racist for implying it only happens with the Japanese. Please delete this page.
Haha no.
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Of the Snow
As much as we need any other one.
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As much as we need Monochrome Casting and Humans Are White.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Why wouldn't we need it?
Working on cleaning up List of Shows That Need Summary
Of course we do - to pretend that it isn't an element of Japanese pop-culture is silly. It may make some feel uncomfortable, but it certainly exists, and since when did tvtropes shy away from presenting (potentially sensitive) concepts like this? Especially if we can have tropes called French Jerk, Scary Black Man and Evil Brit....
Edited by lexii
The fact that it may make some feel uncomfortable is totally irrelevant, but following an article linked in the description, the design of white persons is different than asian persons in japanese pop-culture(between other things, the nose of white persons is generally portrayed as bigger.). Is this true?
Happy New Year!
Reasons behind the presence of mukokuseki is to diversify the character roster and distinguish between individuals, but it can have cultural implications when looked at with a Western eye. It's also been suggested that, living in countries where the demographics are different and "white" instead of "Asian" is the background noise, so to speak, people from Western countries are more likely to perceive that the characters look white because that's what they're used to.''
I'll got a fair amount of white guilt myself but the link's[1] article argument (that's westerners seeing white traits in Japanese art is a reflection of a post WWII superiority complex) is well bullshit. The author even admits it's not very convincing.
There is a lot simpler and less offensive explanation: Manga was influenced a great deal western cartoons and that artists use as many hair and colours as possible.
Lets stick to them and leave out Flame Bait.
I always figured there was something wrong with that paragraph.
Edited by DonZabu "Wax on, wax off..." "But Mr. Miyagi, I don't see how this is helping me do Karate..." "Pubic hair is weakness, Daniel-san!"
You know what the funny thing is? Everybody keeps citing Tezuka as the guy who set the trend for "white-looking characters" because he was influenced by Disney. He was influenced by Disney alright, but the character he bases his drawing style on wasn't even human to begin with.
What happened to the Western Animation folder? It's gone. Or is this tropes aversion just too typical in the west?
What about comics? But they often have realistic designs..
Edited by Pichukun Hide / Show Replies
Asians, often, are obviously Asians in Western Animation, or at least the stereotype. Straight black hair, small almond shaped eyes, small nose etc are easily recognizable as Asian (actually the correct would be East Asian) for the Westerners.
What the heck is wrong with you!? Asians DON'T have small eyes!/East Asians don't have small eyes. No human being has small eyes unless it's a genetic effect.
Edited by EgoMan
Now, it's been a while since I watched/read Sailor Moon so it's possible that I'm mistaken but I could have sworn that at least one of the girls (Rei) was meant to be Chinese on... her father's side, maybe?
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Well the major difference Rei has from the other girls is the Tsurime Eyes. These kind of eyes if you noticed are used to make someone appear beautiful. The long black hair, in the East are also an indicator of beauty (you see blonde hair is more preferred in West, Asians prefer black...or at least that's what the studies have shown). I think she is drawn that way to appear beautiful, rather than Chinese. She is also very traditional, so she's meant to be Japanese. Also her religion, shinto, is "the indigenous spirituality of Japan and Japanese people" (From The Other Wiki). So in conclusion Rei is pure Japanese.
EDIT Naoko Takeuchi wants her to appear beautiful not cute (in comparison with others), that's what I meant.
Edited by drdeathray
Not to derail the conversation, but blonde is no longer really preferred in Western culture. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Would Mikasa from Attack On Titan fit in here? It's made pretty clear through dialogue that she's the only Asian in a cast of Europeans (or whatever the in-universe equivalents of those groups are) but it's sort of hard to tell just by looking at her.
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Attack On Titan might be an interesting example because they intend to make a Live Action version. This is going to be problematic as Asians are suppose to be rare in that universe...
I found this the other day, really interesting. Shows that ambiguous anime features can be as easily interpreted as "obviously asian" as it can be interpreted as "obviously caucasian". I quote:
"You racist westerners must learn to accept and be grateful with the deep set eyes, long nose, square jaw, square face and big wide body form you racist westerners born with which made you racist westerners look boney/masculine. Because it is very disgusting and very racist when you racist westerners cosplaying our Anime characters we cute Asians made based on our Asians almond shape eyes, small nose, sharp jaw, round face and smallish body form.
Don't you racist westerners ever taught in school by your western teacher or by western your mama and papa about how it is racist for one race to impersonate other race just like how you racist westerners impersonate us cute Asians by cosplaying our Anime/Asian characters rather than cosplaying your cartoon/western characters?"
https://www.youtube.com/user/ProudCutePureAsian
This makes me very depressed. Girl has probably faced a lot of racial discrimination, and this is how she lashes out. See, this is what prejudice does.
Note the extensive use of the term "Asian" instead of "Japanese". She's obviously internalized the way Westerners homogenize an entire continent of people instead of focusing on a specific country. Japan is not China is not India is not Singapore is not Saudi Arabia. And yet she's collapsing those countries into one single term, "Asian", which actually signifies Japanese in this case, because that's exactly the way Westerners tend to perceive people with a certain set of stereotypical characteristics.
Edited by Yuen Hide / Show Replies
In any case, things like blonde hair, blue eyes, and narrow, prominent nose bridges are pretty exclusive to white people, right? On this one can't legitimately disagree. Well, middle eastern noses, well.. that's kind of.. well..
Blonde hair, blue eyes, and narrow, prominent nose bridges are not exclusive to white people. More common yes, but hardly exclusive. Anyone can carry the genes for those features and they don't have to have any white ancestry.
Really? I mean, can you back that up? I really think the numbers we're talking about are in the thousandths of a percent, but feel free to prove me wrong..
You know, my Asian friends, to be exact Japanese friends, born in Japan so what she calls pure, say they're really ashamed of her declarations in videos. Even they admit she's the one being racist. They say Anime never was an important part of their life in Japan, was just fun, and so is cosplaying. This Proud Asian Cute..whatever, insists that Anime and cosplaying is a way of life. My friends also say she might not be Japanese or Asian at all.
Although I do agree with some of her material, like Anime characters look like some Japanese cosplayers (GOOD Japanese cosplayers compared to bad Western cosplayers). I say Japanese and not Asian, because Anime refers to Japanese animation. Round face, tiny chin, small nose are Japanese, even when they have non Asian hair color. K. But Other Asian characters in Anime, like the Chinese, DO look Chinese.
Edited by drdeathray
FYI, that was a troll who posted very similar things on forums. You people should know better.
The fact that Tv Tropes uses this racist word caucasian and classify humans in ''races". I tougt Tv Tropes was smarter than this. Also, FUCK J.F BLUMENBACH!!
Half-Thai American boy here. I think conversations about phenotypes like that are pretty funny- as has been pointed out, racial lines can be rather difficult to draw. I knew plenty of ethnically white people with darker skin than the average Japanese citizen. I myself would belong on the 'ambiguously brown' page- not one person has ever guessed half-Thai. So from this point of view, everyone needs to calm down a little. And to respond to that girl's video, I've got to say my blond friend Josh made an excellent Haruhi Suzumiya.
... I have no idea what is going on in this thread.
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"Important to note is also the fact that western fans (especially those that are new to anime), are psychologically predisposed to assume that animated characters are white unless something else has been stated. This is due to a perceptive form of ethnocentrism. The japanese however, live in a homogenous society consisting of people who are japanese, and are therefore predisposed to assume that animated characters are japanese. Thus they tend not to react to their characters features as strongly as the non-japanese do. Compare this to how our perception of the Simpsons ethnicity isn't affected by them having yellow skin. One might therefore argue that this trope is the result of our own perception, rather than the qualities of the art style."
Pulled from the description. I might as well put forth one of my counterarguments: not every Western cartoon uses yellow skinned characters. Also, it is blatantly a stylistic choice because it doesn't resemble actual human skin.
On a side note, why is it that anime-related trope descriptions are written so much more favourably on this site? If it were a Western Animation trope, it would be full of Unfortunate Implications-related snark.
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Since I am the one who wrote that paragraph I guess I feel obliged to reply.
Your counterargument about the Simpsons doesn't make any sense. Are you implying that anime is supposed to be realistic in style? Sure there are realistic anime out there, but those usually don't fit this trope. Anime can ALSO be blatantly stylistic. In fact, the more stylistic a show is, the more this trope tends to apply. So the notion of the Simpsons being excluded for being stylistic is completely missing the point. Yes, there are no humans with yellow skin, but there are no humans with the facial proportions of a typical anime character either. Real life caucasians and asians have more in common with each other than either of them do with anime characters.
What I originally intended to illustrate was merely the effect of ethnocentrism. The same process that lets us accept caucasian characters depicted unrealistically, is the same process that keeps us from accepting depictions of any other ethnicity unless they look like racial caricatures. The japanese are guilty of this as well, hence the american characters always being blonde and blue eyed in anime.
As you see, this has nothing to do with favouring anime over western animation. If that's how you see it than it's not really something I can account for.
@Bambooisgreat I do like your explanation so if possible, can there be a rewrite?
There seems to be a deliberate ambiguity at explaining the reasons for mukokuseki... does this term/concept even exist at all? If it does then do try and explain on the main page what causes it in simple, straightforward English please. The language is confusing and convoluted (to me at least).
Edited by ritzoreo
Call me dumb/thick but I still don't quite understand what causes Mukokuseki; could someone please elaborate with other words? I do understand that it's an ambiguous depiction of racial features, but does this mean that those huge wide eyes mean that such is the way anime chooses to depict Asian eyes? How is it for example that the Asian characters in the GI Joe cartoons from the 80's (drawn in Japan and Korea no less!) look "different" from the rest of the cast but anime made for Asian markets can't tell the difference? Does this mean that for Asians the main stylistic difference between Asian and Caucasian features is one of height and hair colour rather than eye shape?
Edited by ritzoreo Hide / Show Replies
Where a show is outsourced to be animated is absolutely irrelevant, people are hung up on that somehow making a show Animesque.
As for the main question, animation is a stylized version of reality so it is moreso the broad designs rather than very particular elements (in most cases skin tone and eye shape are less of an issue than hair and eye color, if everyone is supposed to be Japanese and all have black hair and dark eyes this trope isn't in effect). Even still the main character of a series will be given a less distinctive Asian appearance, the name Mukokuseki basically means generic but that results in making them appear Caucasian compared to Asian characters who DO have more distinctively Asian features.
I'm not sure where or how to put it, but there an Older Than Television, bordering on Older Than Radio.
Compare the old propaganda lithographs of the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-95) to those of the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05). The Japanese and Russians look nearly identical. The Chinese look far more "Asian", with some artists making them look like grotesque monsters.
Compare these two images.
And here is the signing of the Treaty of Portsmouth, try to pick out the Japanese representatives from the Russians and Americans.
I rewrote the pokemon example. Keep in mind even in the Japanese series, Meowth grew up in Hollywood. The Pokemon continents seems to be strange hodgepodge of real world locations.
I took out the Doug example because the show has more to do with Amazing Technicolor Population than actually having vague facial features. No one is stated as being a particular race and there is no real way of trying to interpret what they are supposed to be. The idea of the trope is that they are all mostly homogenous, which Doug is not.
- Doug is a completely western example but still manages to play the trope completely straight with it's multicoloured cast. Be they pink, blue, or purple, their technicolour appearance has nothing to do with their stated races.
Anyone feel like finding a nice picture of Sailormoon with a caption similar to "typical Japanese citizen"? I can't seem to find any good pictures of her that aren't blurry screencaps or group photos.
There's a paragraph that touches on the idea that white people look like typical anime characters, which is obviously not grounded in reality although there are some people who believe this. The article made some attempt to explain how someone could come to this conclusion, but the explanation is abruptly cut off and the intention of the paragraph isn't clear. I added an explanation for why some people might believe in this idea, but the user Lexii removed the sentence without explanation. The explanation is very relevant to the subject of the article, so I don't see why the line should be removed.
Lexii, please explain your thought process instead of just deleting the line without saying anything.
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