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Oct 26th 2011 at 8:17:51 AM •••

Just wondering...Does Kumagawa count as a Draco in Leather Pants? Okay that trope is opinionated by nature since it relies on the view of the fandom, but it seems that his characterization goes from extremely dangerous minus who actually did some severe damage to "weakest guy who just wants to win". Perhaps this is just me.

Edited by blueflame724
Oct 9th 2011 at 6:23:21 AM •••

Moving the incorrect or vague entries from the character pages to YMMV doesn't really work. Let us examine this latest update:

  • Anthropomorphic Personification / Humanoid Abomination / Physical God / God-Mode Sue / Villain Sue / Uber Mensch / Nietzsche Wannabe: Ajimu Najimi is a deconstruction of the tropes, and she herself admits that she is omnipresent and can turn into an idea or dream at will. She seems to be the actual idea of the psychopath more as a seductive conceptual idea ("Yay! I'm Above Good and Evil with Blue and Orange Morality, What Is Evil?, and Omniscient Morality License!" perspective, and so onwards), and sentient force of nihilism, than a human being. "God, just how long are [Medaka and Kumagawa] going to squabble over such pointless things? They're all the same in my eyes. Nothing but a bunch of trash. [...]Happiness and sorrow... They are really all the same after all... Why hasn't everyone realized this already?" Later, when she meets Zenkichi face-to-face in the real world her POV horrifies him: all people, even abnormals and minuses, are about as worthy of regard as the furniture behind them and just as disposable. She has "1,2858,0519,6763,3865" abnormal and minus powers! As extra Mindscrews she also seems to be an allegory for the Internet itself as a massive hivemind, including the hundreds of millions of component people; combined with the absolutely darkest aspects of the "anima" (including being a "dream woman" for both Zenkichi and Kumagawa at some point), and the zeitgeist itself.

Problem one. It's a paragrpah long. Not even a small paragraph. It's big enough it should be TWO paragraphs. And every single letter is marked as a spoiler. So no, clearly this isn't an appropriate entry for those two reasons right there. But lets examine it case by case:

  • Anthropomorphic Personification: Anthropomorphic Personifications are "physical manifestations of an abstraction". It is not "this character is really really powerful." If Ajimu turned out to be say, the physical expression of power (or insanity, or hatred, or what have you) on the Medaka Box world, and was specifically called that in canon it would count. As such, it doesn't. Cut.
  • Humanoid Abomination: A little better, except it still doesn't count. A Humanoid Abomination is a character that looks human but in reality isn't. Now, you could try and apply this to Ajimu, but it doesn't really work — she's human. She's just got superpowers. A lot of them. For a Humanoid Abomination to be a Humanoid Abomination they have to be in some way inhuman. It's a stretch to call her that at this point — her motivations are all human, she has a human body, she has human hopes and dreams, they're just warped. Cut.
  • Physical God: Better. Much better. While she doesn't have worshippers, and she isn't set up as divine, the trope lists for Physical God shows several "absurdly powerful humans" in the set. Keep.
  • God-Mode Sue: I would be absolutely shocked to find God-Mode Sue not already on the YMMV page. Oh look, it's there. CUT.
  • Villain Sue: Not there. Surprising. Gets it's own entry however. Cut.
  • Uber Mensch: (It's actually Übermensch): "Rejects society's moral code and substitutes their own." Seems fine. But it's not a YMMV entry, so it goes on the character page. Move.
  • Nietzsche Wannabe: Definitely applies to this character, but it's not YMMV. Move.

Ok, so we have 3 tropes that don't go in YMMV, 3 that need to be cut for various reasons, and 2 that need moved to their own YMMV entries. Now lets look at that absurdly huge paragraph.

Part of the problem is that it's covreing so many tropes. It won't be after this edit, but right now, it basically starts off talking about how she's a deconstruction of the trope. Which one? There are 7 tropes there, none of which she seems to be deconstructing. Is she deconstructing... God-Mode Sue? IF so, how exactly? Is she really not a sue, she just works really hard and is getting very lucky? Is she deconstructing Übermensch? That would show her newfound moral code falling apart in the cold light of day, or it turning out she's just doing it For the Evulz.

Not a good start.

The quote doesn't go in line, it goes under the paragraph. There's seven sentences that can go. Then there's the discussion about Zenkichi's viewing of her POV — again, what does that have to do with any of the above tropes? "She's really really arrogant." Thanks, got that? Same with her powers. "She's really strong!" Ok...?

But the last bit is the worst part. "As extra Mindscrews she also seems to be an allegory for the Internet itself as a massive hivemind, including the hundreds of millions of component people; combined with the absolutely darkest aspects of the "anima" (including being a "dream woman" for both Zenkichi and Kumagawa at some point), and the zeitgeist itself]]."

I know for a fact I've cleaned up this pseudo-intellectual Fan Wank off this trope page before. Multiple times, in fact. What is it about this particular work and it's associated tropes pages that attracts people who enjoy incorrectly using pseudo-philisophical nonsense? Is it just one guy who keeps getting edit banned and coming back as a different name? I'm starting to think so, cause every time this happens the person involved ONLY edits Medaka Box and the associated works, then when called out he vanishes, the edits stop for a few weeks, and then someone completely new shows up to do it again.

But lets tear it apart. "She also appears to be allegory for the Internet itself." Please explain this. I would really like to know where this comes from in canon material. As far as I can tell it's just Fan Wank. Especially this discussion about "hundreds of millions of component people."

"She represents the internet hivemind." No, she doesn't. She's just the next level of God-Mode Sue / Villain Sue in the series, which exists to parody the concept of God-Mode Sue and the Shonen Fighter genre in general. Everything, everything about this last bit is 100 percent pure Fan Wank and doesn't belong.

Edited by KiTA Hide/Show Replies
Oct 9th 2011 at 9:01:54 AM •••

It is a smart, constructive, refreshing, sympathetic, creative, and insightful series that may or may not directly concern me.

I agree that the paragraph should probably be compressed, and split up, but Ajimu herself states that she can turn into a dream or idea and is omnipresent, so Anthropomorphic Personification of the idea of the Villain Sue, God-Mode Sue, or psychopath as än ideal, seems correct in itself.

Ditto for that the 700 million female component hivemind parts (with her companion presumably standing for the corresponding males) and depressing viewpoint definitely seems like an allegory for The Internet.

Following up on the being a dream, omnipresent, and easily feigning affection part, she has been the dream woman for both Zenkichi and Kumagawa, so yes, it fits with the idea of the "anima", and ties into Jung's idea of the "collective unconscious", but I personally don't quite subscribe to his viewpoint, and think that there are lots of other factors involved, and the author might not either.

Humanoid Abomination probably works as, although she started human, she has evolved into something else entirely now.

The zeitgeist bit is just my intuition, since that's how I handled a virtually identical character, so never mind that.

However, I'm a compromising sort, and am going to let it be, and leave it to you to decide which parts to integrate, and where to place them.

Edited by ProfessorOdd
Oct 9th 2011 at 2:54:42 PM •••

Thank god it's gone, because the only things about that mess that's true are Physical God, Ubermensch, and Nietzsche Wannabe.

Oct 10th 2011 at 1:00:06 PM •••

Even the 700 million hivemind (around 1.97 billion users in total, but if there are more male than female users, the two not-equals probably sum up to roughly the number that existed when the author started writing the manga, so at the very least in the same area of magnitude), and stated outright part that she can turn into an idea or dream?

Oh well, I suppose that it was just a potential setup, which blew up to something bigger in my mind, since that's what I did when I handled the prototype character. Whether the author eventually goes with it or not is up to him, and then we can add it.

Edited by ProfessorOdd
Oct 14th 2011 at 4:09:32 PM •••

Thank you for letting us know you are antvas, Professor Odd. You should probably just give up on ban evading, you're going to get to the point that even after a few months of letting things calm down they won't let you come back.

Oct 15th 2011 at 12:42:50 AM •••

Well, I'm doing a much greater effort to be a helpful, mediating, and sincere contributor than the vast majority of tropers, so I don't get why my efforts are not appreciated.

Oct 15th 2011 at 10:20:25 AM •••

We do appreciate that you're trying to improve. But you're still evading a ban to do so. You're still adding meta gibberish like "zeitgeist" or "animus" or whatnot to the page, when we've explained, repeatedly, that this isn't accurate to the situation, appropriate to the pages, or even the correct usage of the words.

Just calm down. Come back in 6 months. Apologize to Fast Eddie and the like when you do, and see where that takes you. And for the love of god, read those good style pages I linked in the trope repair shop. If you have to say a trope is "arguably" correct, 90% of the time the trope you're adding isn't correct.

Oct 24th 2011 at 12:52:27 AM •••

Politely apologising and trying to do better has never worked, and was countered with casual insults right from the start, but I feel gradually lessened urges to make edits, and will try to gradually stop, and be as little of a bother as possible.

By the way, the new addition to the cast was quite funny. 60% me (Do I really sound like that?) and 40% other stuff (I generally try to be polite if possible, and am quite open about exactly what I like and don't like), and with Japanised viewpoints, but I do have a sense of humour, and don't mind when parodies are kept at this spoof level.

On the other hand, given his special ability, I suppose that the author doesn't like me foreseeing any plot developments, despite that I like the series, and what I think he's trying to do, so I will try to shut up, and I'm planning to put up a filter against me accessing this wiki.

It's just that, wouldn't you find it strangely curious if you encountered a very unusual character that is nearly absolutely conceptually identical to something that you devised quite some time ago? I don't mind as such, but it is still interesting.

I don't want to cause trouble, but seem to attract hard to understand negative attention here and elsewhere.

Some people allude to that my way of processing information is automatically a lot more unhealthy to others than I thought, despite that I always try to greatly restrain my negativity when talking with others or making edits. I mean, I enjoy lighthearted stuff because I'm trying hard to learn how to think positive.

To make sure that I don't accidentally cause any damage (despite actually trying to help), I have deleted assorted old talk posts.

Should we delete the above posts as well to just let all my alleged negative influence disappear?

Edited by Zidane
Jul 17th 2011 at 1:25:29 PM •••

Yikes, can we slow down with the PotHoling of the opening? It should be succinct — brief, punchy, to the point: Putting in asides in parenthesis about how "their bark was worse than their bite" is a bit too nattery. Randomly potholing to Fascist Italy is just... odd, for example. That stuff goes down in the actual tropes list.

Also: Does the latest arc count as another genre shift? It seems to me that post-Kumagawa has returned to a less combat orientated, more quirky-student council style manga (which is what the author wanted to do in the first place.) Sure, there's the Not Equals to deal with in the future, but they seem Genre Savvy enough to stay the heck away from Medaka.

Edited by KiTA Hide/Show Replies
Jul 17th 2011 at 1:49:28 PM •••

How is this any more potholing than what you did? I simply evened out the descriptions. The first opponents are very strongly a Shout-Out to fascism, especially Oudo, and the second gang of opponents were set up as opposing socialism-anarchist bent, but not really worse people as such. Why the extremely favouring tone regarding the fascist Oudo, to the it eventually turned out nicer Kunagawa?

Or the insert that the minuses were genocidal? That's just BS. The flask plan on the other hand was stated outright to plan to sacrifice 5 billion of humanity as lab rats if I remember correctly. Why are genocidal literal fascists less evil than unhinged damaged goods?

Then there are the unnecessary repetitive descriptions that aren't really good for anything. Why not ween them away? I did put in quite a lot of work to strongly improve the page, so it feels unnecessary to just remove it.

Edited by Zeref
Jul 17th 2011 at 3:52:51 PM •••

I don't see any connection with fascism and the first opponents — the first opponents being the discipline squad, which was basically random school nonsense dialed up to 11, which was the theme of the original series — school nonsense, dialed up to 11.

Even if we go further, to the Flask Plan arc and it's batch of villains, Oudo wasn't a fascist — yet alone Italian — he was just a megolomaniac with delusions of grandeur backed up by a side effect of his minus powers. He had no political aspirations nor political subtext, instead seeking to dominate his little corner of the planet — the school. You are reading far, FAR FAR too much into the (nonexistant) political ramifications of the character and the series as a whole. There are no political subtexts in the series whatsoever, and even if you do make somewhat awkward parallels to real life ideology, there are certainly not enough of these links to randomly put them in as natter in the opening.

(Not to mention — Fascist Italy isn't even a trope in the way it's trying to be shoehorned in like this. It's a description of a specific setting in Itallian history that comes up often in works.)

The minuses, specifically Kamagawa, state that they want to kill all the "elites", and then specify what they mean by elites — which amounted to "everyone." Perhaps that part needs tightening up, but when they were first introduced (and that segment was written) they were certainly an onmicidal force, which was toned down to "for the evuls" as things went on and their advance crumbled. (And the series took a few author saving throws, I'm sure.)

I do not recall the flask plan ever having mentioned planning on murdering 5 billion people as lab rats, instead they were studying and experimenting on the Abnormals using the school as cover. Feel free to link any manga pages if you feel I am in error, it's entirely possible, as it's been a while since I re-read the early few dozen chapters. Medaka's complaint was having all these unhinged individuals in her school was putting the other students — and their peaceful school lives — in danger.

Jul 30th 2011 at 3:28:43 AM •••

Updated the intro again. Still waiting on feedback about the political implications — you still around, Zeref?

The more I examine The Paragon the more I feel it does fit in with Medaka, so the most recent changes by Tokimi I cleaned up a bit to include that. Shōnen is being renamed, and Shonen Fighter is what we're actually thinking of when we use Shonen, so I preemptively changed it to that.

I included The Paragon on the front page due to the series Reconstructing that character trope, I'll also add it to the characters page.

Power Born of Madness also fits pretty well with the Minus team, although I did expand a bit on it in the opening. I pulled Meta Fiction (doesn't fit) and split that up with a bit of whitespace.

Aug 10th 2011 at 11:36:53 AM •••

Hmm, it seems there are a few individuals concerned about how the description page should be handled, I stopped monitoring this page for just a few months and this happened, there were old "edit-wars-without-discussion" back then when the Genre Shift kicked in, dozens of YMMV entries madness and deletionism, I'm one of the tropers that voted for a note explaining why the shift was made, it sticked till you guys reworked the main description.

I liked the change, but still, even if it was for the better, you guys wanting the change should have waited more (even months if necessary), you just can't change what you want and then wait for concerned people to reply if they disagree.

With my rant over, I don't see why the RIROLAND reference was deleted, Akira was famous because of his past as the aforementioned pen name; just as Isin is famous for Bakemonogatari, the two must remain, or the two must be deleted, no favoritism in the description.

May 6th 2011 at 2:25:30 PM •••

Does anyone know who voiced whom in the VOMI Cs? I know Hitoyoshi was voiced by Hiroshi Kamiya and Maguro was voiced by Takehito Koyasu, but who were the other voices? http://vomic.shueisha.co.jp/medakabox/ They're listed here, but lord knows I can't read this mess.

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Sep 29th 2011 at 4:56:05 AM •••

Shiranui was Emiri Katou (voice of Mayoi Hachikuji), Medaka was Megumi Togoyuchi (Revy), Hyuga was Wataru Hatano, Kenta Miyake was Oudo, and that Kendo delinquent was Taketoshi Kawano.

Nov 19th 2010 at 8:17:38 PM •••

For fuck's sake people, can't we reach some sort of sanity on the spoilering? I understand not revealing crucial plot points to newbies who read this thing, but whole paragraphs are being blanked out. This is not how we should be Handling Spoilers!

Oct 17th 2010 at 3:20:06 PM •••

Am I the only one who thinks there should be a character page? I kind of doubt anyone cares enough to make it, but, it's an idea.

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Oct 19th 2010 at 4:16:11 PM •••

There are lots and lots of characters and I've been trying to sort them out in my head. How would you sort it?

I'm thinking:

Main Class 13 Minus 13 School Residents Other

Oct 21st 2010 at 2:19:00 PM •••

Yeah, I think that'd work well. Alternatively, you could do Main, Normal, Special, Abnormal, Minus, Other.

Oct 23rd 2010 at 9:43:24 PM •••

Started one. I'm terrible with names so lets work together to fill it out.

Oct 23rd 2010 at 11:19:06 PM •••

Oh. Okay, what do you need help with?

Oct 23rd 2010 at 11:47:25 PM •••

Okay, I handled all the names. It's late here though, so I don't have time to edit the tropes themselves.

Nov 22nd 2010 at 1:39:25 PM •••

While we're on the subject, shouldn't we eliminate the charcter-specific tropes from the entry's main page? Seems kinda redundant.

Oct 14th 2010 at 8:16:05 PM •••

Should we look at perhaps spitting the page? Like:

The series pre-Genre Shift provides examples of:

The series after the Genre Shift provides examples of:

Since they are effectively two separate series-es in everything but name.

Sep 2nd 2010 at 3:35:07 AM •••

The Off the Rails entry doesn´t match the real meaning of this trope (it is a game trope), but what else would fit? For now, I´ve put it under Jumping the Shark / Growing the Beard

Edited by HekirekiNoMakai
Apr 24th 2010 at 1:54:23 AM •••

Isn't saying a "small" genre shift an Understatement?

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Aug 14th 2010 at 3:24:27 AM •••

well, it just depends on the person. :3

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