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I\'m not a fan of the name of the trope, I don\'t think it indicates the true meaning very well. I also think a lot of people read \"Honor Before Reason\" and think something along the lines of \"Lawful Stupid\", rather than the much more complex/nuanced situation that this trope represents.
I agree. \"Virtue Before Reason\" would be a better description. \"Honor Before Reason\" sounds more akin to sticking to your guns because of what other people will think of you, rather than doing it because it\'s right.
Consider adding a warning at the bottom. I see a lot of these choices commiting some Straw Vulcan falacies. Believing that 'self-sacrifice' is putting honor before reason. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Honor Before Reason is when an individuals personal code forces them to take a far more difficult course to achieve their ends than a person without those restrictions.
"Being a good person" is not an example of some kind of honor that can get in the way of reason.
That good person refusing to break a promise, even though doing so will help people, IS honor getting in the way of reason.
Basically, it's not 'unreasonable' to engage in self-sacrificing actions. If your goal is to save your friends, and the best way to save your friends is by self-sacrifice, then by sacrificing yourself, you are not engaging in Honor Before Reason. Unless you would like to claim that Spock was portraying this trope in Wrath Of Kahn.
At least, that's how I see it. Maybe I'm missing the point of the trope. But if I'm right, we might wish to place a bolded announcement elaborating on this point, hopefully by someone more succinct than me.
Is the page quote really adequate? In my opinion it does not say "Honor Before Reason", bot "If you cannot decide logically which option is better, do what feels better", meaning it would be an aversion.
Anyone else having this opinion?
That's not what the quote means at all. The quote's saying the smart thing to do (run and hide) isn't right, and the right thing to do (revealing the big secret about Miranda) isn't smart—but it's still right, so we should do that.
This page has gotten to just under 250,000 characters, and is getting a bit difficult to navigate in my opinion. Once it hits 400,000 characters, it will hit Fast Eddie's Big Page Lock report and need to be split.
I propose that we go ahead and perform the split now to pre-empt the problem, and to make the page more readable. I would be basically giving each folder its own sub-page, with the main article being an index of those sub-pages.
Would anyone object to me doing this? If not, I will probably get to it in a week or so, to give people time to chime in.
Since no objections were stated, I've gone ahead and made the change. New examples should be placed on the appropriate sub-pages.
leonardo in tmnt is a strong believer of honor, so is one of those honor before reason characters!!!!
Screw Reason I have Honor, or a variant
for the LO Lz!
Hono(u)r before reason: Schindler
I think this trope shouldn't apply. It's more of a heroic sacrifice. Honor before reason applies more when there are other options
Yeah, I agree entirely.
Honour Before Reason doesn't mean "any act that isn't solely in the rational self-interest of the person carrying it out". Otherwise practically every person on the planet (or, at least, those of us with actual morals) would be 'guilty' of it at some point. I don't think the Pope example fits either, for the same reason. Refusing to go along with mass murder is not putting honour before reason, it's simply being a good person (and, of course, being in a position to actually do something about it).
So do you think we need to make edits?
I think that most of the examples in the Real Life section don't fit. Finland and Poland's defiance against the USSR and Nazi Germany aren't really examples of Honour Before Reason, just national pride/survival instincts/not wanting to give up their country.
Accidental double post by me, so edited
I don't like this trope due to the deep YMMV it entails. Because what is unreasonable, really? Perhaps it would be honorable to die and be punished, at least in these characters' views. Eddard Stark said "You think my life is such a precious thing to me, that I would trade my honor for a few more years...of what?"
It's hard to call it reason when a person reasons that the honorable thing to do is what you perceive as stupid. It's like calling a suicidal person as not using reason when they shoot themselves in the head! They didn't do it inadvertently!
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