Discussion Main / EvilIsAngular

I'll argue for their inclusion because

• While the setting practically runs on Evil vs. Evil, there is still A Lighter Shade of Black to consider, of which orks, from an outside view, definitely fall into the darker side as a race with no redeeming qualities. They fight, kill, fight, kill, fight and kill some more with no regard for the suffering they inflict.
• There's the entire concept of something being 'Orky' - which is used to describe something with plenty spikes, teeth, and jagged metal (And a garish paint job). While examples do exist of ork vehicles/ships without this design aesthetic, this does not mean it is the norm, nor goal, for them to be that way.

The second point doesn't really answer my second point that this is little different to anyone else however. Also if you could point to any in-universe source for that it would be helpful as the Chapter Approved 2018 section on Looted Wagons doesn't mention it, it just talks about adding weapons and guns. It does mention improving the general design but nothing about adding the things you mentioned, and the example conversion doesn't show anything like that.

Going by the example under "Evil Knockoff" on the Ork page, it goes as follows:

"Ork versions of Imperial vehicles exist and are tabletop-legal as long as they're sufficiently bastardized in an Ork-y way (i.e. painted correctly, Imperial insignia defiled, Spikes of Villainy are a plus, etc."

This implies that while Spikes of Villainy, and other Scrapyard additions, aren't per se required, they are very much in the spirit of things. You can then include things like 1d4'chan's page on 'Orky', and I would say that's fairly common knowledge that things without these spikey and edgy additions aren't adhering to Orky standard.

You can also compare a Space Marine Landraider to it's Orkish equivalent, the battlewagon. Not only does the landraider have the profile of a smoothened rhombus, but the battlewagon looks like two rectangles smashed on top of each other. The 2018 ruleset describes that a battlewagon is often the end result of a Landraider that got looted. Which further implies that given enough time in Ork care, the Landraider won't maintain its smooth rhombic look.

I said "In-universe" which this wiki and 1d4chan a site renowned for its inaccuracy where background material is conserned, don't count as that.

Where abouts in the 8th edition Codex is that as a quick skim read of the Battlewagon section I can't see any mention of it. You have brought up something that I hadn't thought of though. What does this trope cover that Spikes of Villainy doesn't as if all that is needed to count for this trope is the addition of SoV then why not use that trope?

There Is No Such Thing as Notability, Tvtropes is a place by fans for fans, this means that if fandom in general supports it, it can be put there, possibly with a quantifying statement regarding that it's a fandom thing. Go onto just about any forum, reddit, whatever you have, and ask what 'Orky' means, and you'll get that it's scrapyard, ramshackle, teeth, loudness, and guns, lots and lots of guns.

And no, Spikes of Villainy doesn't cover it. Take a look at This looted baneblade◊ - Aside from the teeth at the front, covered by Spikes of Villainy, its overall profile is jaggedly boxy thanks to the addition of the vertical exhaust pipes, which is not covered by Spikes Ofvillainy

There Is No Such Thing As Notability is about the creation of work pages not the information that goes on the wiki, that still has to be accurate. There is a rule on this wiki that we use the most recent official English translation of foreign language titles and character names even when the majority of fans use something else so "if fandom in general supports it, it can be put there" and besides, a single wiki saying something is no sign of general fandom support.

As for that Baneblade, that is hardly more jagged or boxy than a regular one (and didn't you say in a PM the other day that bandying pictures around wouldn't get us anywhere, especially when Ork tech used to look like this - [linking doesn't seem to be working at the moment]). As far as I am away this trope is about Evil=Angular when Good=Angular not Good=Angular Evil=More Angular. The difference between Asuryani and Drukhari tech is a good example of this trope, the difference between boxy Imperial vehicles and boxy ork vehicle, not so much.

Linking doesn't really work because the discussion pages run on another parser. I have no bloody clue who would go through the extra work just to make a thing that doesn't work half has well, but it is what it is.

As for your idea with 'Evil=Angular when Good=Angular' and not 'Good=Angular Evil=More Angular', Tropes Are Flexible and everything is relative. Good designs don't have to be totally edgeless, or nothing outside of spheres and oblong pill shapes would count for the good examples.

But we can keep arguing all day, so how about this compromise:

• Orks regularly loot battlefields and areas they've conquered for supplies and materials. While an Ork has no problem using a looted vehicle as-is, without major changes, any subsequent repair and modification by Orkish 'Mekboys' will consist of metal parts and guns crudely welded or bolted together however it will fit, making looted vehicles and ships obtain more and more of a scrapyard look the longer it is in the 'care' of the orks. Fandom even utilizes the term 'Making X look Orky' as a shorthand for adding spikes, edges, enormous exhausts, guns and a garish paintjob to whatever 'X' is, without regard for whether it would impact the profile or functionality of the vehicle or not, as Ork technology runs partly on WAAAAGH energy.

Hmm. I am coming around but am thinking something more along the lines of the following:

• While it depends on the edition^note 1st and 2nd Edition designs being very rounded, the design of vehicles and technology used by the violence obsessed Orks is often blunt and brutal, with a jagged scrapyard look that gives away their common origin as battlefield salvage. This can also vary by clan with the more militaristic Blood Axes preferring more regimented designs similar to those of the Imperium of Man while the primitive Snakebites prefer to add spikes, skulls and spines to make their vehicles look like mechanical beasts.

I am against mentioning fan opinion as that is for YMMV not the main wiki, plus much of the more recent lore is moving away from the Clap Your Hands If You Believe nature of Ork tech.

Moving away from being bona-fide capable of making a stick shoot bullets if an ork believes it's a gun, yes, but to my understanding that Red Ones Go Faster still applies because of the Clap Your Hands If You Believe nature of the Waaagh! field. So it obviously still has some impact, even if it isn't as big a Reality Warper as it used to be.

Well the stick shooting bullets rubbish is just fan exaggeration, it has never been canon. These days it is more ambiguous, put as "one theory" or simply that the Tech-Priests don't know how it works and latest Codex book includes the Redder Armour Evil Sunz Relic that explicitly uses technology to achieve the speed boost effect.

EDIT: I don't see how this has anything to do with the trope either.

I wanted to bring it up because of its tangential relation: If the Waagh field is still a thing, orks don't have to care as much for practicality and functionality when designinging their modification. A big engine and an enormous exhaust will make a vehicle faster even if it is not entirely properly attached, simply because the vehicle now has a roaring loud engine.

This leaves the Orks free to forego practicality, hence they can afford their scrapyard appearances.

Regardless, that tangeant aside. Feel free to add your example, though if the Waagh field is no longer aiding at all, it might be time to delete that trope.

Considering that Ork aircraft are actually more aerodynamic than most Imperial aircraft that have never had that sort of thing it really isn't an issue. As someone once said, in 40K Rule of Cool trumps physics.

I have been rewriting a number of tropes that take fan exaggeration as canon (such as the purple Orks, sticks shooting bullets, etc.) whenever I see them and have the time.

I will add my version of the write-up then.

Good idea, if you want to go ahead and do it, be my guest.

Problem is, I suck at graphics.

And this is why it is what it is now. I'm no better at graphics, I did not make that image. Someone did and it was better than what was there at the time, so there it is. And there it will remain until something better comes along.