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Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
May 27th 2022 at 5:33:31 PM •••

This article is terrible, but I will focus specifically on what's the most irksome part of it.

After reading most fo the article, it seems to me that most of the "neutral" PO Vs seem to be some sort of "le enlightened centrist who comes to solve this ages old argument with his all-knowledgeable insight". It doesn't help that most of the "neutral" entries have "deep" and extended insights that the other entries lack, making off both the casual and the competitive views into laughable strawmen, or when the "neutral" entry starts arguing with itself, of which there's some examples.

Either just remove the "examples" and leave the page as definition-only, or stop (and sorry if I'm being rude, but holy shit, the holier-than-thou attitude got on my nerves) putting the opinion of the tropers that made these entries in a pedestal as if they're the sole recipients of the truth in these arguments.

Edited by Edgar81539
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? Since: Dec, 2012
Hey there! Having fun?
Jun 9th 2014 at 7:23:25 PM •••

So, the "neutral view" sections stink of Golden Mean Fallacy. We gotta fix that.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer Hide / Show Replies
Steven (Edited uphill both ways)
Jun 9th 2014 at 9:00:34 PM •••

I don't agree. Nearly all of them show legit points for a middle ground rather than being in the middle for its own sake.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
Jun 10th 2014 at 10:09:13 AM •••

Key word being nearly. Notably, the "neutrals" for Game Breaker and Luck are primarily casual, Complacent Gaming Syndrome is primarily competitive, and MST 3 K Mantra is just plain holier-than-thou.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
Jun 10th 2014 at 10:12:21 AM •••

MST3K has a legitimate point if you ignore the holier-than-thou part, so I'll remove the snobbish part. Also, the page quote either needs to have another quote to represent the competitive side (Karen's quote is often associated with casual play) or something else.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
Jun 10th 2014 at 2:18:19 PM •••

That's what I said last post but nobody listened.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
Jun 10th 2014 at 2:53:05 PM •••

Whoops, didn't see that. The only hostile quote for competitive I know of is that SSB meme quote.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
Jun 10th 2014 at 6:24:27 PM •••

That would be assuming people know what it's talking about, though. So we need to find something else...

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
Sep 11th 2014 at 1:48:22 PM •••

We still need a quote to reflect the competitive side since Karen's quote is only representative of the casual side.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
Sep 12th 2014 at 2:00:36 AM •••

We have a forum thread on quotes here for the record.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheDebauchery Since: Dec, 2014
Apr 27th 2017 at 8:23:06 AM •••

Seems that way. One who believes compromise is the answer to everything is doomed to be mediocre at all of it.

Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
May 27th 2022 at 5:31:08 PM •••

Yeah after reading some of the entries most of the "neutral" PO Vs seem to be some sort of "le enlightened centrist who comes to solve this ages old argument with his all-knowledgeable insight". It doesn't help that most of the "neutral" entries have "deep" and extended insights that the other entries lack, making off both the casual and the competitive views into laughable strawmen, or when the "neutral" entry starts arguing with itself, of which there's some examples.

Steven (Edited uphill both ways)
Sep 17th 2014 at 10:16:30 AM •••

So I want to add this but I am not sure if I covered everything I wanted for the Direct Conflict folder. Any pointers?

  • Hardcore and casual players for Final Fantasy XIV can't come to a consensus when it comes to the end game gear. For the hardcore side, the players believe that learning and mastering the mechanics in the Binding Coil of Bahamut (an end game Bonus Dungeon of sorts with awesome gear) means you deserve to get the loot inside because you worked for it while also believing that a player that only aims for relic weapons (an Infinity +1 Sword for many while being an Infinity -1 Sword for players who aim for High Allgan weapons) are taking "the easy way out" since relic weapons usually has the player do old content with a bunch of hoops to jump through. For the casual players, they believe that end game gear should not be restricted to just one dungeon and more options should be allowed as long as people are willing to put in effort and time into getting said gear while also stating that not everyone has the ability to have a schedule sync up with 7 other players to tackle end game content. While Square-Enix is trying their best to please both sides, expect the two groups to get into heated debates over what they believe a player is entitled to have.
    • Difficulty in general has also stirred up debate between the casual and the hardcore mainly due to every instance where Square-Enix makes old content easier so that struggling or new players can catch up to current content. The hardcore crowd strongly believes that content should never get nerfed in the first place since it promotes bad players that will ruin everyone else's raids by not exposing them to the difficult mechanics and that anyone who can't clear content shouldn't be playing at all. The casual side feels that new or struggling players should be given a small boost so that they aren't stuck on outdated content for months while everyone else plays with the new content, possibly killing the game when struggling players decide to unsubscribe since they can't progress.

Edited by 72.80.116.72 Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order. Hide / Show Replies
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
Sep 17th 2014 at 11:41:04 PM •••

Well, to begin with that needs to be two separate bullet points otherwise it violates the Example Indentation in Trope Lists guidelines.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheDebauchery Since: Dec, 2014
Apr 27th 2017 at 8:20:27 AM •••

Casuals have, by definition, never been prone to putting time nor effort into anything.

ArcaneAzmadi Since: Jan, 2001
Nov 19th 2016 at 7:34:52 PM •••

Is it just me, or are the Hardcore and Casual views on Game-Breaker and Complacent Gaming Syndrome basically opposite perspectives on the same thing? By which I mean, isn't the Casual view on Game Breakers (if it works and it's legal, why not use it?) the same as the Hardcore view on Complacent Gaming Syndrome (it's the best way to play so deal with it)? Seems weird to me.

Always expect the worst and you can only be pleasantly surprised. Hide / Show Replies
TheDebauchery Since: Dec, 2014
Apr 27th 2017 at 8:18:39 AM •••

The perspectives given do seem to be, though I'd hardly call them "Hardcore" and "Casual" so much as "Competitive" and "Freedom-Favouring". Actual Casuals probably wouldn't even notice if there was a gamebreaker because they don't sink enough time nor effort into any game to find out.

ZombieAladdin Thar be flabbergasting! Since: Nov, 2010
Thar be flabbergasting!
Dec 18th 2016 at 4:27:19 PM •••

Could I propose adding Play the Game, Skip the Story versus Enjoy the Story, Skip the Game? Competitive players often would prefer to get straight to where they've unlocked everything and gained all the tools needed to play competitively, with said story just being something to get through. And casual players, not as interested in multiplayer, just want to enjoy the story, connect with the characters, and discuss and analyze it with other people, and may even just stop playing when the story ends.

I see this crop up in Pokémon, Super Smash Bros., Call of Duty, Splatoon, and anything made by Arc System Works. It's usually also pretty clear which side a specific game lies on, and when a sequel shifts towards the other side, the fans get really mad and it becomes a common cause of a Broken Base.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl, in particular, suffered from this. To accomodate both sides, there were two means of unlocking everything in the game: A faster one done by playing multiplayer matches, and a slower one by going through the story. That is, people who didn't want to play the single-player mode could still unlock everything, and even then, some fans got mad at the single-player mode existing at all.

Or would this fall under "Multiplayer Focus"?

Edited by ZombieAladdin Hide / Show Replies
TheDebauchery Since: Dec, 2014
Apr 27th 2017 at 8:16:03 AM •••

Frankly, they should have made the Smash Bros. games more plot-focused, more single-player content... The Narrative is as much a part of the Game as the Mechanics of it are.

And since when have Casuals ever cared about story? They just want something flashy to keep them entertained for 10 minutes before they go on to some other equally shallow pursuit.

TheDebauchery Since: Dec, 2014
Apr 27th 2017 at 7:44:23 AM •••

Why have the definitions changed so much over time?

At least when the 32-bit generation of consoles hit, the "Casual" term saw use as a result of S*ny marketing their console to basically everyone, bringing in a generation of people who would pick up a game, prod at it carelessly for 10 minutes, then drop it again.... which, given everyone paid the same price for games and the Casuals far outnumbered the Dedicated, meant that game creation started veering towards the creation of low-content, repetitive, copycat games that could be churned out endlessly for easy profit. And of course now it is even worse because of Smartphone Games... Endless low-effort "bash screen to win" trash with microtransactions to make your pixel blue or whatever. Because why bother actually putting effort into making games when you can get rich selling something you made in 5 minutes to idiots for huge profit?

It was never about whether a game was more technical or more story-based... and calling dedicated roleplayers and the like "casuals" because we're more interested in immersion, exploration and plot than bashing heads together for score rankings is beyond insulting.

Take games like the Call of Duty series and Modern Warfare for instance. Total Casual-Fodder. Mass-produced copypasta games made to appeal to those who are more likely to play the game for 10 minutes (screeching at each other the whole time) than sit down and play for 10 hours straight.

So where did all this "Competitive" crap come from? Since when have the Pv Ptards and the screeching "E-Sport" monkeys been given leeway to set themselves opposite the Casuals tapping away on their iPhones? And what insanity would lead to anyone marking a preference for plot and gameplay freedom as a trait of casuals? Casuals don't care about that crap. They don't care about anything besides flash-bangs and shallow sensationalism.

Edited by TheDebauchery
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? Since: Dec, 2012
Hey there! Having fun?
May 21st 2014 at 5:41:39 AM •••

So, there has to be a quote for both viewpoints. Just having Karen's makes the page casual-biased. Any suggestions for a pro-competitive quote?

I didn't re-add the Shaffer quote because it didn't illustrate the conflict part. We need something from a hostile competitior (Karen uses a No True Scotsman fallacy, so her quote fits for the hostile casual side.)

Edited by 98.94.26.162 "It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HeraldOfExius Since: Aug, 2013
May 6th 2014 at 7:04:53 AM •••

Is there any better way of wording the Pokemon entry for Game Breaker? Somebody unfamiliar with Smogon might interpret Mega Kangaskhan being "banned" as meaning something roughly equivalent to the Sleep Clause, which applies to every tier, while what actually happened was Mega Kangaskhan got moved to Ubers.

Hide / Show Replies
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
May 6th 2014 at 11:07:59 AM •••

Getting banned to to Ubers is the same thing as being banned in every tier, since Ubers is a banlist first. Its status as a playable tier is only due to Rule of Fun.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
May 15th 2014 at 6:50:33 AM •••

Yeah, and the clauses don't apply in Ubers, either. It's a No Holds Barred thing while OU is the "gold standard" tournament scene.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? Since: Dec, 2012
Hey there! Having fun?
Apr 24th 2014 at 2:36:49 PM •••

I see there's some Stealth Rock-bashing that someone tried. I'm just leaving it here that the move was tested; no mediocre pokémon were made any better, and pokémon that are countered by it were rendered unstoppable.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer Hide / Show Replies
morenohijazo Since: Nov, 2009
Apr 24th 2014 at 3:51:36 PM •••

OK. Good to see my mistake was corrected, thanks. Although I'm amazed at how fast it was done. Wow.

Seriously, my avatar comes from the embodiment of the So Bad, It's Good trope.
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
Apr 24th 2014 at 4:34:10 PM •••

On a related note, do not bring up evasion/Double Team. It is THE most hated move even amongst casuals, and banning it is probably the most common House Rule.

Edited by 75.84.1.237 If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
Apr 25th 2014 at 5:47:05 PM •••

Apparently you're not familiar with the casual fandom.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
Apr 27th 2014 at 5:25:40 PM •••

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but Double Team is in That One Attack for a reason. Also, have you ever fought a Minimize Eviolite Chansey? It's pretty fun.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
May 10th 2014 at 9:02:45 PM •••

Found this for those who think Stealth Rock is broken. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/would-we-want-a-stealth-rock-suspect-test-read-196.3484392/

EDIT: This post specifically. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/would-we-want-a-stealth-rock-suspect-test-read-196.3484392/page-2#post-4720363

Edited by 104.34.219.208 If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
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