Discussion Main / Ballet

I think the list is fine as it is so far. There's less than 20 on it at the moment, the ones I added were the largest companies in the US, at least. If we go beyond 20, then maybe it's too long, but so far, it looks fine to me.

Use folders to hide the list, if you're worried about length. There's no reason to cut the list down.

Disagree. We are not Wikipedia, this is a Useful Notes page. I'm going to wait for further input here, but I'm starting to think we should just scrap the list altogether.

That said, the companies on the list I proposed fit one of two major criteria: either they were significant to the evolution of ballet as an art form and/or the home of one of the major ballet techniques/styles (Mariinsky/Vaganova, Royal Ballet/RAD, Royal Danish/Bournonville, NYCB/Balanchine, POB/French, La Scala/development of pointe), or were significant in popularizing or spreading the art or creating a significant body of works (Ballets Russes, Bolshoi, Cuban National, ABT). It's not about how big they are.

If we can't come to a consensus on what to keep, then I also vote to remove the list. Awaiting further input.

Agree that all the companies should be removed (ETA: if the list is getting cut down to a short one) so as not to show bias towards any companies. They can be mentioned elsewhere. (Also, the ballet page is not useful notes, it's a main tropes page.)

I do not feel the list was too long. I think troper Rose and Heather is being too fussy about this issue, among other things because it is imposing a notability aspect we don’t subscribe to on this wiki. I’m in favor of keeping it, in a folder if needed.

The alternative I guess is to remove all mention of ballet companies, but I find it to be a relatively unsatisfactory resolution to the problem. But it’s to my thinking a better solution than keeping Rose and Heather’s tight reins grip on things.

I'd rather have all the companies or none of them. It's not fair to other companies who haven't done something "significant" by a small metric (of either the art form or a body of works) to not be listed. I said in ATT that for example, Houston was one of the first companies to have a black prima ballerina, and that is a big deal in the world of ballet. So I guess I don't agree that the list should be removed, but if someone's going to cut it down and leave so many companies out, then the whole thing should go.

I'd rather it not go, but it's unfair to say "well these companies aren't notable, but these are" on a page that's listing, y'know, various ballet media anyways. If the list is "too long" then it ought to be put under folders.

To add: There's more ballets listed that don't have articles here than there were ballet companies.

The other solution — and frankly this is my preferred solution — is to remove the lists of companies and choreographic works to a Useful Notes page and leave the Main page as a list of ballet-related media. A longer list of companies would make much more sense there and Nethilia is correct that the list of choreographic works is getting very long. Then it could also double as an index for ballets themselves (as opposed to other works which involve ballet).

I second this. We could probably have the main Ballet page as "Ballets and Ballet Stories" (or separate pages for ballet-related stories and actual ballets), which would be on the the Works by Subject page. A Useful Notes page could then be made on the history of ballet and companies.

That sounds like a reasonable solution. I'm fine with it.

If there is consensus, then the new page(s) (except the Useful Notes) will have to be created through TLP (at least that's what I assume).

IIRC Useful Notes pages don't have to go through TLP. We should figure out how we're going to organize it though before we start drafting — i.e. do ballets with their own trope pages go on the Main space or the Useful Notes space?

I feel like the former is appropriate for ballets that already have trope pages as well as works that involve ballet, but the list of choreographic works is so long at this point that I don't think it's practical to host them all on Main. Perhaps keep the ones with active trope pages on Main and then the full list on Useful Notes? Anything that gets a trope page later could be moved over as appropriate.

For the record, it's not that I have a grudge against ballet companies outside that dozen or so of the most prominent — Boston Ballet and the Latvian National Ballet are two of my favorite companies in the world, whereas I'm entirely indifferent to NYCB. It's just that with this being a Main page, I felt as though the list was bloating a page that was already quite long as it is and I felt conciseness was becoming a problem. Splitting the pages solves both problems at once.

Ballets go under Theater and are troped as media. They can be listed on both pages, since Useful Notes—while not tropes—list media that reference them. On the main page they can go under a folder, while on Useful Notes they're listed out (and if they get long, again, a folder is useful). Folders are great for use on long pages because they put stuff away and leave users to unfold and see.

They're namespaced as Theatre, yeah, but I was thinking an index of ballets like we have an index of musicals.

An index like that on the page should be on both pages, especially any ballets that have their own pages.

Is there a point to having duplicate indexes though?

Not everyone that's going to see the ballet page is going to go to the useful notes page. The ballets that have their own pages should be listed on the main ballet page. They're media.

So ballets and ballet-related stories stay on the main page, while the Useful Notes page talks about the history of ballet and a list of choreographers and their works that don't have pages yet. Does this sound okay?

Agreed that the ballets with their own pages ought to be on the Main page, and there's no reason they can't also be listed and linked on the Useful Notes page — though I think that on the former they should be alphabetized and on the latter listed by choreographer — but I think only the former should be formatted as an index. IIRC the point of an index is for navigational purposes at the bottom of other pages — so I think it ought to stay on the main page, as I don't think any other UN pages also host indexes unless they're specifically designed to index other UN pages.

But in general format, yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Alright, if that's that, a Useful Notes page can be created for more detailed information on ballet, while the main page will serve as an index for ballets and related works.

Yes, agreed. The main ballet page remains as an index with the useful notes page the more detailed facts.

^ That's acceptable.