Yeah, if the character is clearly bi, they don't belong on the page. Fee free to remove that image as misuse.
Macron's notes
who here think we need more bi male teen characters as someone here who’s bi the only people we have now is Nick Nelson from Heartstopper who else?
I know this has been discussed a lot at this point, but this trope is already starting to reach absurd levels of misuse. More recently, beside the usual, people have been using things that actors say in interviews that strike me as misinterpretation and shouldn't count as solid evidence for the application of this trope. The examples that I can think of are the way it's applied in the character page of Lalo Salamaca from Better Call Saul (this trope has already been used in Howard Hamlim's page and was also based on something the actor said in an interview, but someone already deleted it after I checked recently) and also for Eddie Munson in the Stranger Things' character sheet.
Edited by SaneK Hide / Show Replies
the misuse of this trope is indeed a problem. Google-shipping for canonically straight characters, over-speculating on their intimacy, and taking scenes out of context to portray an outright joke or friendship as something sexual.
I propose two main criteria that should prevent misuse of this trope:
-Implied sexual or romantic attraction, behavior or identity. It can be subtle, but it should be visible and arguable and does not come from fan interpretation. If it's just a friendship, admiration or praising someone, it doesn't count. Milder or more debatable examples can be mentioned to further the case, but at least one convincing example should be present.
-Authorial intent, whether confirmed (Word of God said so) or inferred (the author is queer or speculated to be queer thanks to biographical details or anecdotes; in other words, the author would at minimum have to qualify for the trope him/herself).
What do you think?
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Unclear Description
, started by ombudsloth on Feb 15th 2015 at 11:40:45 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Duplicate Trope, started by Tightwire on Feb 25th 2017 at 1:24:05 PM
I'd like to put forth that this trope be reassigned to YMMV. This is a very 'edit war' trope, because its subjective; and exactly what counts as evidence for the trope is equally subjective. One person claiming something is evidence is equally valid as another saying its not, and lets face it, a lot of it is due to shipping goggles. Another option would be to rename the trope slightly; Maybe 'Ambiguously Bi (YMMV) ' or something of that nature.
Edited by Alooulla Hide / Show Replies
Agree that there is a serious issue with this trope in that very often Ho Yay (which is explicitly YMMV) is the sole justification for tropers putting this onto work or character pages. Any same-sex friendship might be interpreted by audiences prone to Shipping as "proof" of this trope, even though there is actually nothing in canon to support it.
Yeah, but then you have other things outside of a ship that can cause characters to be seen as ambiguously bi. The way they talk about certain genders, the way they dress, how they act etc. If you read most ambiguosly bi examples, it's not all "ship ship ship".
All of which are also subjective. For example, large numbers of heterosexual cis males nonetheless dress and behave flamboyantly. Especially entertainers who maintain stage personas. There is a very strong delusion in today's society that there is an archetype for "correct" (i.e. clearly heterosexual) behavior. But this tends to reflect provincialism on the part of creators and audiences. The flaw in this trope is its subjective nature. It is based on the AUDIENCE'S interpretation of the character more often than it does on any canon supporting the trope.
Thinking about this, it really should be a sub-trope of Alternative Character Interpretation (YMMV). The simple fact that it is "Ambiguously X" emphasizes that the onus is upon the audience to interpret a character this way. Deliberate examples in works might be considered Ship Tease instead. Especially since the Bi The Way trope has been retired, it seems bizarre to treat Ambiguously Bi as a valid work or character trope anymore. But it could still fit in YMMV.
If the Gideon from Gravity Falls example is enough to classify it as this trope, then wouldn't Mabel Pines, Stanley Pines, and Soos count? Stanley Pines has married a distinctively male animatronic miner and has made comments on the attractiveness of the characters from Sev'ral Times (A tweet by Alex Hirsch also implies a little bit more, but I don't think that counts.) Soos is in a canon relationship with Melody but has also had more than a few moments with Stan. Mabel is a little bit harder to justify, but she's been shown to be pretty comfortable wearing pride colors in an episode about relationships.
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Good lord, no. I know this trope is a mess and should be in YMMV, but even if it were, Mabel "I Literally Only Care About Boys" Pines is not Ambiguously Bi because she wore colors once. And Soos' relationship with Stan is very explicit. He's desperately latching onto him as a father-figure. Hell even Gideon seems like a stretch, unless it's actually saying the 12-year-old was having sex with men in prison which is waaaaaaaaaaaay darker than I think the show ever intended.
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Well, I mean fair enough for Soos and Mabel, but what about Stan, even if it is played for laughs? Actually, now that I think if it, both The Love God and Wendy's father also have their moments.
If a character's Ambiguously Bi is based on them supposedly being attracted to two characters, one of whom is male and the other is female, but I think that the troper who listed it there was wrong about one or the other... I don't think it means the character can't be bi, so I don't want to remove it, but at the same time, there's nothing between the character that's listed there. (Mostly opposite-sex close friends). So... I'm not saying they're definitely 100% same sex, I'm saying there's just nothing between them and that character. I hate to remove examples because of that, but...
I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care.
It seems to have been mildly discussed but I think it is actually a very good idea to make it a YMMV trope, since it is "ambiguously" gay or bi characters it's by it's nature very subjective and open to interpretation. And it seems like whenever a character is labeled as Ambiguously Bi/Gay on their respective work's main or character trope list it's often flagged because there's not canonical evidience that the character is attracted to the same gender, even if it is, again, specifically those who are only "ambiguously" gay/bi not characters who are definitely-in-the-closet or Bi The Way.
So I guess long point short it definitely should be a YMMV trope (I originally thought it was), it's too much controversy and hassle as a main trope.
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While I would agree, I am not sure if the forum would agree.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I just think it should just be made less subjective, so that it only examples that are very clearly intentional. I think if the trope was made YMMV, people would just add examples of intentionally ambiguous characters to the Bi The Way page, which should remain for characters that are pretty much confirmed as bi.
For we shall slay evil with logic...
The Tom & Jerry and Megamind examples seem like they should probably be removed. They're both stretching it.
Edited by Eaterman1995 Hide / Show Replies
Even if they are, ban evasion is not acceptable behaviour.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I personally think Sam and Dean Winchester, Megamind and Yu Narukami should all be removed, this page isn't supposed to be for discussing characters that yaoi fangirls ship with guys, and the first three fall pretty strongly into that category especially Dean since his actor confirmed he's straight. There's a case to be made for Yu, but I always saw his semi-flirtatious behavior with the guys as his idea of a joke.
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Yeah. Sam and Dean have plenty of Ho Yay, but they've only actually shown attraction to women. They've shown love towards men, but it's pretty clearly and explicitly brotherly love.
As for Yu... given he's a bit of Cloud Cuckoolander and Troll (especially in The Golden Animation), it's not a great examples.
Honestly, this page is so full of stretches I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to make it YMMV.
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LuminescentBlush
No offense but a lot of these examples seem very Shipping Goggles-y.
Some of these are a bit of a stretch. I mean, Harry Potter? Doncha think maybe we could tone down the shipping goggles just a smidge?
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Yeeeah, he doesn't fit. Pulling fangirl shipping paragraph that digs at and reinterprets everything:
- Harry Potter:Harry Potter himself. While he's shown to have a crush on Cho and later fall in love with Ginny, he also had plenty of Stupid Sexy Flanders moments when Bill Weasley is around, when watching Tom Riddle in the Pensieve, and another moment with Cedric Diggory who Harry describes as handsome... and he can't refer to Sirius's teenage self without dropping the word "handsome". In Half-Blood Prince there's also his strange preoccupation with Draco and his massive boycrush on the eponymous Prince.
I'll also post in the fora to ask if someone can do more thorough cleaning.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Haha, yeh no. That needs to be pulled.
Any other ship-y examples?
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Removed:
- Your mileage GUARANTEED to vary, but James T. Kirk is taken this way by fandom. He is a legendary lady killer in-universe and out, but if you check out the Star Trek Ho Yay page you'll find paragraphs of glorious gayness.
Because isn't the entire point of everything after the word "Note" in the trope description specifically intended to keep people from posting examples that are just characters fandom wants to be bi or gay when nothing in the original work suggests they actually are?
Confused why Johnny Silverhand is listed. Surely admitting out loud that you "swing both ways" removes the "ambiguously" from "ambiguously bi"?
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