Stick of the Fallen
Okay, the image is awful. Here's a thread to pitch suggestions for a replacement. I have some stuff to do, but when I get done it, I'll share a few images I have that could work.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I think we should figure out some kind of spoiler tag policy, either overall or page-by-page. Currently, only the DotC page has a real policy (everything is untagged except for events that occurred in the most recent DotC release, and it seems like it's working well. However, I don't think that really works overall, does it? We can't just say "only Bramblestar's Storm gets spoiler tags." Perhaps just decide a policy for the character pages, and then a policy for each series page?
Anything would be better than the haphazard thing we've got going on here: on the main page we have info from Crookedstar's Promise, The New Prophecy, Omen of the Stars, The Power of Three, Original Series, and more spoilered out, and specifically which things get tagged seem to change. You might see, for example, the fact that Yellowfang's son is Brokenstar spoilered out under the trope Wham Line, while the fact that the Clans have to leave the old forest and settle by the lake and the fact that the Clans are descended from cats who used to live by the lake don't get tags under Where It All Began, despite the fact that those revelations are much much newer than the "Yellowfang is Brokenstar's mom" revelation.
So headscratchers. I really think we need folders, that page is getting big. By my count there are over sixty topics. But I'm having trouble dividing them. My preliminary system had too many folders: Original Series, New Prophecy, Power of Three, Omen of the Stars, Dawn of the Clans, General Clan Life/Culture, How Afterlives Work, Prequel Era, SkyClan Arc, Non-Clan Cats, and Other, which was mostly for fandom questions, and 'the Erins got this fact about cats wrong' sorts of things. At least, I think that's maybe too many folders? Although over time, they will only get more full, so maybe it's ok? The largest folder was Clan Life/Culture, with sixteen discussion points. The others averaged about five with DotC and The SkyClan arc being outliers with only one and two entries respectively.
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Well, Headscratchers.Warrior Cats Discussion is a thing so you might want to post your proposal there.
Anyhow, I think it makes more sense to split a headscratchers page by topic and not book. A question might overlap two books.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Stick of the Fallen
Spoilers for The Last Hope ahead!
Currently, mentions of Brambleclaw becoming ThunderClan's leader are marked with spoiler tags. However, Bramblestar's Storm is coming out in the summer of 2014, so people who look at Warriors books on the shelf of their local bookstore will see the spoiler, regardless of whether they have read The Last Hope or not. Since this makes it a Late-Arrival Spoiler, should we continue to spoiler tag mentions of Bramblestar? I personally think that for now it's okay to spoiler tag this, since you have to look through fansites to find this announcement, but when the book comes out we should remove the spoiler tags. Not that I want to remove those tags, but it would be completely pointless to leave them, wouldn't it?
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!" Hide / Show Replies
I agree. Leave the spoiler tags on until the book is officially released.
I'm pretty sure I'm still low-key in my scene phase.
Listing forums and R Ps on the main page: should it be done? I personally vote no. The Warrior's Wish one was a fun thing among the members but not really meant as a serious trope page, the Official Forum one's main intention was to make fun of said forum, and the others aren't very well known. We've got the most notable, popular fanworks there, but I don't agree with listing these sites on the main page for the series, as they're either not well-known, or meant to be a serious page.
We now know who Sky is. Would it be considered spoilery to add him, since we only know it's him by Word of God?
Why is the series called "Warrior Cats" here but "Warriors" on The Other Wiki?
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That's a good question. The series name is actually Warriors; it's only called Warrior Cats on the UK covers. Perhaps whoever originally added it is from there? Then again, the official site for the series is called warriorcats.com, and the series does get called that sometimes by fans. Or maybe whoever added it used the lesser-used name in order to avoid getting it mixed up with other works such as "The Warriors". "Warrior Cats" does help describe the series a bit better when listing the series as an example on tropes, gives a little bit of context in that whoever reading it can assume the characters are cats.
Stick of the Fallen
Congratulations! We've reached Trope Overdosed,! I added it as this:
- Warrior Cats - 24+ main books, a plethora of Expanded Universe material and a penchant for deconstructing every trope the characters can get their paws on.
(Sorry if someone else wanted to put it on. I was really, really eager to.)
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!" Hide / Show Replies
Well, now the Overdosed requirement has changed to 1500+ tropes rather than 1000+. So now we've got another goal to work toward to get it back on the list!
Stick of the Fallen
There is now a Biggest Complaint
crowner.
The pages for the individual series are pretty bare. Are we supposed to move tropes from the main page to their appropriate series pages? I'm not sure if I have a great understanding of how this works, but I thought that, in a case like this where there are subpages for different series, tropes should only be on the main page of Warriors if they aren't specific to one series, but I'm not really clear on that. For example, the trope Breaking the Fellowship only applies to series two, or at least, that's the only example, so it should go on that page, I'm pretty sure. But what if, say, a trope has examples from series two and four, but nowhere else, like Boring Return Journey? Does it go on those two pages and nowhere else, or does it go on the main page? Also, what about tropes from all the (many) things that aren't the main series? We have Super Edition, Manga, Field Guide, and e-book tropes that need to go somewhere. I guess, just keep that on the main page? Just wondering about that stuff in the hopes that I might be able to help once I know what to do.
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That's in theory how it should be - series specific tropes should go on series sub-pages, general tropes should go on Warrior Cats, character tropes should be only on character sheet... Right now it's a bit of a mess and a lot of stuff is repeated. For example Hollyleaf Meaningful Name is mentioned on a main page, Power of Three sub-page and ThunderClan's character sheet.
But before we start moving everything, or establishing policies on border cases, I would like to ask other tropers if it is really necessary to have separate sub-pages for all the series? Maybe it would be easier and better to just get rid of them. What do You think?
I wouldn't min removing them; I don't think they're realty necessary. We've got a brief description of each story arc on the main page, and there's so much overlap between the main and character pages and the series pages that having a series page is a bit superfluous; there aren't many tropes unique to one arc. It's not like there are major changes between each series; it's basically the same cast and everything.
I think having subpages is a very good idea. Warriors is a huge series, with just amazing amounts of spoilery material. I got spoiled for a lot of things in the last couple of books of series four just from being on TV Tropes. It would be great if fans who had only read series one, or only the first three series or whatever, to be able to just read tropes that applied to those series without fear of spoilers.
The 'keep everything on the main page' philosophy is very convenient, but only for those people who have read every book (including all the Expanded Universe stuff) or those who don't care about spoilers, and I think that those groups are probably a minority.
Maybe we'd do better to add more spoiler tags on the main and character pages - things like deaths and the Leaf/Crow relationship because it was such a big reveal. The problem with this series is that the names themselves are spoilers, in some ways. I don't think we should spoiler, say, leader names, but at least the biggest spoilers maybe we can clean up.
Edited by Dawnwing
I don't think adding more spoiler tags would really help, largely because it's not always obvious what is being spoiled. You could see an example that just says "Blah Blah Here Is The Trope Name: At first it looks like (here is some spoiler texted stuff) but then it turns out in a much later book that (blah blah blah.)"
If the trope name helps give context, it's often just spoilery enough to ruin things, and even when it doesn't, if the example is almost completely spoilertexted out, there's no other way to know if it's a spoiler for you or not. Being more thorough with spoiler tags would just make nearly every entry partially whited-out, which would just make people have to either read anyway and hope they don't get spoiled, or just not read ANY of the warriors page until they had read everything.
Spoilers are a valid issue.
It's true that as of now, you can only safely read those pages if you either don't care about spoilers, or have read all the books(even more, sometimes spoilers from the newest book get their tropes on here before book's official release - TFW did).
Sub-pages do provide a good way to segregate the content into managable chunks, and could allow to have meaningful spoiler policy.
What about the character sheet then? Should it be split to series too(although I doubt there would enough material for that), or should we just slap a "spoilers for all the series ahead"?
Maybe we should also put a warning for unmarked spoilers before we manage to move everything, something similiar to what Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann page has, since most major events revealed don't have spoiler marks yet.
I think sorting the characters by series too isn't necessary. If someone's looking at a character, they just need to be aware that everything about that character is on their sheet, throughout the series, so the "spoilers for all the series" idea is a good one in my opinion.
I support "Spoilers for all series" for the Character pages. There's really no good way to hide spoilers there, and I don't think we need character series subpages either.
I'm for keeping the subpages as well, because of the spoiler issue which has been addressed. Since the series is so large, unmarked major spoilers are inevitably on the main page, but with subpages you can read about tropes without worrying about spoilers for future arcs.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Wait, we're leaving the leader after Firestar's name as their warrior name, right? Because that's a major spoiler, and when we discuss them on the Official Forum, nearly everyone still calls them by their warrior name.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
People SHOULDN'T still call that cat by his/her warrior name, but they do. I think on the main page/subpages that's fine, but if we slap a warning on the character page that there are unmarked spoilers and then someone finds out who succeeds Firestar, that's their own fault.
But it happens at the last second, and the character is much more well known by their warrior. It's not like they were leader for any extended period of time.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I'm with Katie on this one - leader name on the character page, with an "unmarked spoilers" warning, and warrior name on the main page. Extended or not, it IS their official name, and who knows, we might see them as leader more in Mistystar's Omen.
I added the Unmarked Spoilers tag as discussed and changed all instances of the new leader's warrior name to their leader name, except in a quote the mentioned their warrior name, and their picture.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
So does this mean we should start moving things to their appropriate subpages?
Stick of the Fallen
Since the series is rapidly approaching Trope Overdosed, I wanted to bring this up. I'm thinking that instead of putting the page on Trope Overdosed as soon as it reaches 1000 wicks, we should wait until we have 1005 wicks. That way, we create a small "net" to keep the page on Trope Overdosed even if a few examples are deleted due to Trope Repair Shop action, or the series is on the same page as a redirect.
Then, as long as we keep adding examples to pages, we should be fine.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!" Hide / Show Replies
Stick of the Fallen
I'm worried I should have changed the namespace to "Franchise" rather than "Literature", since Warrior Cats is multimedia (plays and manga). However, we've already done a lot of Wick moving, and it would be torture to have to start over, and Warrior Cats is mostly literary.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!" Hide / Show Replies
I think Literary covers it perfectly fine. Franchise is more suited to something like Pokemon, which has video games and books and mangas and anime and whatnot.
EDIT: Yeah, even Harry Potter and Pokemon aren't under "Franchise", so I think we're good.
Edited by Dawnwing
Stick of the Fallen
I cleaned up the TearJerker.Warrior Cats page. Good thing the other pages aren't as bad.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
While we're in the middle of wick-fixing, I think that Main/Warriors (note: just Warriors, not Warrior Cats) should be turned into a disambiguation page, since there's a movie called The Warriors. So if you see any wicks to Main/Warriors, then change those as well.
Edited by Dawnwing Hide / Show Replies
Update: I have now turned it into a disambiguation and fixed the Main/Warriors wicks. You might see a drop in about twenty wicks to Warrior Cats, but that was because a couple of the wicks were to the film The Warriors, and because most of them were just duplicates - it linked to both Main/Warriors and Literature/WarriorCats on the same page, and it was counting them as two in the Warrior Cats related count.
Stick of the Fallen
So, there are two topics I wanted to bring up regarding the page.
The first is that I'm thinking of having a page for the Expanded Universe, seeing as the main series arcs all have pages. However, since the Expanded Universe is quite large, I was thinking of covering it through multiple pages. Here's my idea. A page for the "SkyClan Saga" (Firestar's Quest, SkyClan's Destiny, and SkyClan and the Stranger), a page for the "Prequel Arc" (Bluestar's Prophecy, Crookedstar's Promise, Yellowfang's Secret, the unnamed Tallstar Super Edition, and possibly The Rise of Scourge), and a page for the alternate medium works (The remaining manga, the Adventure Games, the Field Guides, the plays and the short stories). What do you think?
Secondly, I'd just like to say that I'm going to change the Erin Hunter page from a redirect to a creator's page as soon as the Wicks for Warrior Cats get to the point of about 1030. This way, it won't interfere with getting Warrior Cats on Trope Overdosed. I just wanted to mention that.
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I don't think we need pages for the Expanded Universe, since there's not really a lot of tropes that fit those books specifically. Even the series pages feel somewhat superfluous. And we're going to have the recap pages to explain what happens in each.
I agree with the creator page. This was something I was considering bringing to Discussion myself. I think it's probably better to do it before we reach Trope Overdosed, though, so we don't reach the goal and then lose it (besides, some of the places it's on have nothing to do with Warriors anyway... or else we already have a wick to Warrior Cats, so even though they're both going back to the same place it's counted as two seperate ones, which is not good in terms of considering a trope to be Overdosed.) Anyway, there's only 23 wicks to it, so it won't hurt the count too badly. Do you want to write it, or should I?
Edited by Dawnwing
I'll write it. Thanks.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
I wrote the Erin Hunter page, but it could be better.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
There, I added some extra information about each of the authors, how does that look?
I'll add a page image with a picture of all four next time I'm on the computer I do images on.
Because of the recent namespace change (Main/WarriorCats > Literature/WarriorCats), we're supposed to be fixing page wicks. So, we have to go through this list and edit each of those pages to change "WarriorCats" to "Literature/WarriorCats", just so you all know. I've been trying to work on this myself whenever possible, but I have too much going on to get it all done alone, so I'm posting so that others are aware and can work on it too.
Also, just pointing out, all major decisions about the page really should be brought to Discussion for people to talk about and decide if they're ready for it, before making a big change like that on your own. Namespacing is something we're supposed to do, but if you don't have the time to change 900 wicks, you shouldn't just go and make the change without giving everyone else a heads-up. At least then, they're aware of the changes that are supposed to happen, and can either agree to pitch in or decide to wait until everyone's less busy and will be ready to work on it. And other big changes, which aren't required/vital, (i.e. splitting the page up different ways, changing the image, making subpages...) should be discussed with others and agreed upon before you do it - it might turn out that that particular change isn't wanted/needed. It's a lot more difficult to undo something here than to do it in the first place.
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.......Sorry. I tend to act before thinking. But fear not, what I am doing right now is wick changing!
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Just pointing out to y'all, looks like there's a crowner for Best Episode here. ;)
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/BestEpisode/WarriorCats
Anyone feel that we should do a recap page, like many TV show/etc pages have?
There would be a main page (which we would link to on the main Warrior Cats page) with links to each book's summary. The book pages would have its cover, certainly, and may or may not have a list tropes - I'd say no, just summarize the book (with trope links in the description where appropriate), since we can list tropes on the series' pages or on the main page.
I was looking at the My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic recap pages as an example of how to set it up/how detailed to describe it. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic )
I just wanted to get others' opinions before making such a major change/starting such a big project, so let me know how you feel about this, and if we like the idea, then I'll set up the page(s), and we can all chip in on typing the summaries/making the pages look good. (I already have a couple books's summaries - mostly OOTS, and probably a couple SEs - almost ready because I'd typed spoilery summaries when I got them days before the release.)
So, let me know what you think!
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I have to agree. I have a chapter by chapter summary of Into The Wild on the OF if you need it.
Also, when you (and I) get The Forgotten Warrior early, should we put up the summary early or on the release date? (I say release date.)
And I'll get around to making the OOTS page soon!
Edited by Lightflame "Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Not that my opinion matters much now(since the page is created) but I like the idea.
As for listing tropes on summaries - I agree that they shouldn't be listed - some tropes are already listed in too many subpages, stating the same information. I intend to move series-specific tropes to specific series, leave general applicable tropes on main page, and move character tropes to character sheet, when Lightflame makes OOTS page.
I cave to pressure.
I'll make the Expanded Universe page later though.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Sorry, didn't have time to do it last night.
I'll write it after I finish Death Note Black Edition #6, which just came in at my bookstore.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
What's with the picture change? I liked that picture from Darkest Hour(not the caption, though). Book cover of It W is... quite boring in my opinion. What do other tropers think?
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I agree. I'm going to change it back.
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
While we are at it, does anyone else thinks that page quote could use a change as well? Sure, Arc Words for first series is nice, but maybe there is a quote that that would reflect the series as a whole, or represent what Warriors world is like. I'll look for something, but suggestions and opinions would be nice.
Ms.
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to consolidate the entries on the main page into separate categories? The list is getting rather long, what with the extensive expanded universe, and I can think of plenty of tropes that are begging to be included. I'm new here, so I'm not sure if I should discuss this first or just go ahead with it. If other people approve, I would be willing to do all the work though. It would clear up a lot of clutter and allow for more examples to be cited.
My idea is to create individual lists (on the same page of course) for the original series, New Prophecy, Po3, Omen of the Stars, Firestar's Sky Clan's Destiny, and Bluestar's Prophecy. There would also be a general listing for series-wide tropes, fan descriptions, Word of God statements, and stuff from the field guides. I'm not sure where the mangas would fit... possibly another separate section, despite the fact that most of us dislike them. What do you guys think?
If no one replies to this in three months or so, I'll probably just do it, because that would indicate that no one really reads this anyway...
Trees turning silver in the moonlight was iffy, and the moon making corn glow silver was hard to believe, but has anyone seen a real-life example of when "the sun rested on the tops of the trees, turning them pink"?
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I'm not sure where else to discuss this, so, here goes.
The books have entries on both the Nightmare Fuel and High Octane Nightmare Fuel pages for Literature. Much of the two entries are identical. On NF, it notes, "despite being a children's series". On HONF, one troper says:
- "... Despite generally being listed in the children's section of most bookstores, [it's] not really meant for kids, as stated by Word Of God."
So...which is it? It's marketed towards children, but the author says that it's not really written for kids. (If I remember correctly, she said that she doesn't have any demographic in mind when she writes the books.)
It can't be on both pages, especially not when the entries are pretty much identical. Which page's entry is to be zapped?
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Well, if it's "it's marketed as a children's series" vs "the author said", it basically comes down to Executive Meddling vs Word of God, in which case I side with Word of God.
Also, although the difference between the tropes seems to be interpreted as "for kids" vs "not for kids", the pages' descriptions seems to be more "perfectly regular stuff that kids will find scary" vs "things that are supposed to be scary", and since a lot of the examples are Vicky trying to be as dark and violent as she can, it looks like High Octane.
So, I would say keep High Octane Nightmare Fuel, zap Nightmare Fuel.
A lot of these pages are beginning to look like "Swiss Cheese entries", with frequent "holes" where spoilers are hidden in tags. Due to the fact that this makes the page very difficult to read and edit (especially when adhering to the policy of not hiding the trope name or full example in a spoiler tag), that the Handling Spoilers page recommends erring on the side of less spoiler tags, that some of the things hidden in spoiler tags are more than a decade old, and the very spoiler-y nature of the series in general (what with all the Spoiler Titles and even character names being spoilers), I propose the following: That, like many other pages on TV Tropes, only the spoilers from the most recent book (or most recent main-series book & most recent side book) are hidden, and we put a "beware unmarked spoilers" tag toward the top. Does anyone oppose this? Figured I'd put the idea out there before making such a major change.
EDIT: Looks like there's an older discussion about spoilers as well, didn't see that. So I'm not the only one who thinks the pages need work as far as this goes.
EDIT 2, 11/21/16: Since there's been no objections and I think it would really help the page, I've started with it.
Edited by Dawnwing