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The plot description in the introduction is almost 1,000 words, which is enormous. Very much in TL;DR territory. Meanwhile, the Game of Thrones TV series page manages to succinctly describe the premise in one paragraph. I think the plot description should be cut down to one more like the TV series.
I agree that it\'s really long and should be cut down but the integrity of the books separate from the TV should be maintained. So it shouldn\'t be the same as the TV Show. Furthermore the TV show summary says the \"plot focuses on the Stark family\" when that\'s not really true of the books come the fourth and fifth book, or even earlier than that. It makes no mention of the Night\'s Watch and also spoils the first book by claiming that the last scion is claiming \"her throne\". This summary has the advantage of being non-spoiler and clarifying all the different factions and parallel plots. So any summary should maintain that.
So "Sons of the Dragon", GRRM's New In-Universe History about Maegor-Aenys is out. From what I gather this isn't presented as far as I am aware as one of Gyldayn's or Yandel's work, so how do we categorize it?
GRRM has also said that Fire and Blood Vol. 1 will be out in 2018 which will chronicle Targaryen history from Aegon I to Aegon III and will include expanded versions of Dance of the Dragons/Rogue Prince. So I am thinking we create a Fire and Blood super-page, with links for TPATQ/TRP inside, and ''all tropes related to Sons of the Dragon can go there?
What's other opinions on this?
Would The Sons of the Dragon be able to go under "Prequels and Companion Media" with the novellas and Gyldayn and Yandal's books? I know this is a different piece from the novellas and previously available history books (though I haven't looked at this particular book yet because I still need to get it) so this is tricky.
I like the idea of a Fire and Blood super-page but my only concern is that this content still falls under the umbrella of A Song of Ice and Fire so a separate super-page may separate the two too much. However, I could be wrong and would love to see opinions on this!
Those are my thoughts :)
I believe the proposed ‘’Blood and Fire’’ superpage would be on the same level and section as Archmaester Gyldayn’s Histories and Yandel’s book.
It is only a superpage in the same sense as Archmaester Gyldayn’s Histories is a superpage. The later includes both novellas ‘’The Princess and the Queen’’ and ‘’The Rogue Prince’’. The proposal as I understand it is to put all the Fire and Blood material in one page, with subdivisions for each volume.
If that’s the case, I agree.
Thank-you for clarifying this, Azure Owl! I apologize for my misunderstanding. Yes, in this case, I agree with this proposal as well :)
I think we should actually just sit back and wait for Fire and Blood, Vol. 1 which GRRM guarantees for 2018.
From what I gather, Sons of the Dragon is an early draft of the full version whose excerpts were published in TWOIAF. The TWOIAF is the full-edited version, so this is more or less like a published excerpt.
So creating a new page for what is apparently very repetitive and redundant stuff is unnecessary. Most of the Maegor-Aenys stuff was in TWOAIF with illustrations bells and whistles. So it's already covered.
Fire and Blood, Vol. 1 is out and it presents some problems. The sections on the Conquest and the reigns of Aegon I, Aenys I and Maegor mostly cover the same territory as in The World of Ice and Fire and Sons of the Dragon, while providing some additional detail.
But starting with the reign of Jaehaery I it is a wealth of new information. I\'m still in this part so I can\'t tell yet how the sections on the Dance of the Dragons and the lead-up to them differ from the novellas.
So I propose that the Archmaester Gyldayns Histories page be reworked to incorporate Sons of the Dragon and both volumes of Fire and Blood, as they are all the work of Archmaester Gyldayn In Universe.
This will also allow us to avoid repetition, by putting the tropes in the section corresponding to the earliest work of Gyldayn\'s that they appeared in, as well as all the tropes relating to Gyldayn\'s writing style and biases.
Do that. Make that page the new one...and just say sections were once published separately...
I think that it's important to remind our fellow tropers that the book series and the TV show are separate entities and that tropes that apply to one might not apply to the other.
This is, in light of the fact that there has been edits concerning the recent events in the show put in the books' trope pages. This is not because the events of the show are not considered "canon", but until the new book is published, the new events should be documented in the show pages, as they can play out differently in the books (as they already have since season 3 or so).
Be mindful of where you write the tropes on and keep an eye out!
We already do have warnings for that. And the fact that show and book pages are marked separate and different proves that. Don't see anything more we can do.
This is just one poster and editor, we didn't have many last year with Stannis after all.
And yes, the events of the show are not considered "canon" because in a work like ASOIAF context is all.
So, there was a day when I added a link to the Game of Thrones recap pages, since they basically summarized the books. That day is over, and I think we're best served by having Recaps or Synopses for the books.
The question I'm posing here is how to ORGANIZE them. I feel like going chapter-by-chapter is too detailed (and would result in huge pages). However, organizing by region, as The Other Wiki does, is somewhat unwieldy (CF A Storm of Swords, where I had to re-organize the synopsis with the North first because if we started in the southron six kingdoms, Jaime would enter the plot literally out of nowhere). I guess, maybe, by character? Perhaps by plotline? The Ice, the Fire and the Song (IE the War of Five Kings)? But that too is going to get complicated (CF Storm of Swords where Stannis leaves the Song and joins the Ice). And, in my mind, one of the most important things we can include in these synopses is everything that was Adapted Out on HBO (LSH, the Sun's Son, Young Griff, backstory on Robert's Rebellion, all of the Iron Islands), because some of those things have become so central to speculation on what the last two books are going to be (particularly the Secret Targaryen theories).
So, esteemed tropers: what is the best way to tackle this?
Recap of the books is really long, unwieldy cumbersome...or as Stannis would say, all the more reason to do it.
The point is that the books are really intricately plotted. Stuff that happens in one POV (Jaime and Brienne meeting Roose at Harrenhal) pays off in another (Catelyn at Red Wedding in ASOS).
I suggest we follow the action, by plotline. We mention the POV characters in Bold* We avoid going too much into the internal stuff unless its absolutely germane to the on-screen action (like say Tower of Joy). Then we can keep it short and managable.
I have finished the synopsis of aGoT. It can be seen here:
I ended up going chapter-by-chapter because I felt like going "by plotline" was not granular enough. With one exception, I managed to condense every chapter into one paragraph (though I did cheat by occasionally interspersing a quotation into the middle of it). The resulting document was still 42 pages long in Google Docs.
For those interested in this project, there are a couple of things I would ask for:
1) Your opinion on the chapter-by-chapter format vs. the plotline-by-plotline stuff. These synopses, in my mind, serve two masters — fans of the show and want some familiarity with the source material; and complete newbies who want a taste of it before committing to hundreds of hours of books and TV — and as such they need to have enough detail to satisfy the hardcore but simultaneously not be intimidating enough to scare off the curious. I'm still not convinced that chapter-by-chapter is the correct format.
2) One of the things I did specifically was try to make sure every paragraph had at least one wick or pothole. At this, I failed. If you can find any (relevant ;)) ones to stick into those paragraphs, I'd be grateful.
I just clicked on the link and it said that this page doesn\'t exist.
Should Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories (The Princess and the Queen, The Rouge Prince) get their own page, like the Tale of Dunk and Egg?
If there is enough material to make a page from them, sure.
Does it not bother anyone else that there isn't any kind of "general" description of the series at the top of the page? Approach it from the viewpoint of someone who isn't familiar at all with the series, aside from the name. They look it up to see what it is.
The first paragraph just says its a "Doorstopper epic fantasy series" but gives no details and spends the rest of the time just listing various books and publications. Then there's several lists, exhaustively listing all the various main novels, companion novels, prequels...ugh. It's not until you scroll down past all that you finally find some description of what the series is actually about. Like, seriously, someone shouldn't have to scroll down half the dang page just to find out what the page even is.
I'd suggest putting at least a sentence or two in the first paragraph explaining, in broad strokes, what the heck ASOIAF is. If it were up to me, I'd also take out all the random trivia about prequels and adaptions out...but that's just me. At the very least I'd suggest moving it to lower in the introduction. There's no reason to front-load the page with all this miscellanea! Start with simple descriptions at first, with an unfamiliar reader in mind, and then get progressively further into details as the intro goes along.
Just my two cents.
Yep, that is seriously bad. I don't have time or the knowledge to put up a description, though, so you'll probably have to ask here in the forums for a rewrite.
I mean, I could throw something up. Normally I would just go ahead and do it but this page is a lot more active than the ones I usually contribute to, so I didn't want to step on any toes...
Another option would be to drop the list of works down and the description of the works up. Most other pages start with a description, then with the worklist.
Isn't there a way to make lists collapsible, as well? Via folders I think? I don't know what other people would think of that, but I just hate how much vertical space those lists waste.
Had some free time and decide to go ahead and rearrange/reword the intro significantly (after only a couple months from when I first considered it :P). Hopefully I didn't step on any toes or piss anyone off. But I do think it's better now. There's probably more I could do but maybe I'll get to that in another few months :)
Euron Greyjoy: Is it time to consider him going to join the Complete Monster brigade, yet? Because, frankly: when you terrify the Ironborn the way he manages to do, you ain't normal.
There is a thread in the Long Term Projects forum to discuss additions to Complete Monster pages. All examples need to be cleared with it.
Question: Walder Frey (and the rest of the Freys). Are they Too Dumb to Live or What an Idiot! for their plans for getting with the Lannisters and Boltons to plan the Red Wedding and how they've gone about "covering" their tracks?
Standard power grab from a Pet Rat/ Starscream going south with understandable setbacks? Or dumbass move from the get-go? Need to work out which. :)
I know this isn't really what the discussion page is for, but does anyone know where I can get hold of the Dunk and Egg stories? Are they published as part of anthologies? I managed to locate the first one in Dreamsongs, but I cannot find the second and third stories anywhere.
Why are there asterisks everywhere?
I don't know why there would be (nothing is out of the ordinary on the history page), and none are showing up on my end. Can you point to a specific one that you see?
Sorry, I may have the wrong discussion page, but there seems to be an asterisk overload on the character pages. Some of them are clickable and do have useful information, but they seem to have been added for every character, and most of them are empty.
Yeah, there is a definite surplus. Just zap 'em as you come across them.
Whatever happened to the troper who wrote those immaculate episode descriptions?
I wrote a lot of the Recaps for the first two seasons, but that doesn't necessarily make me the person you're thinking of.
Should we perhaps change the page quote to Rhaegar's "the song of ice and fire" one. That way we title drop the whole series rather than just book 1.
Could we have both? I think Cersei's quote exemplifies the series in many ways.
The point of a page quote is not to provide a title drop for the sake of it. The "game of thrones" quote actually exemplifies the series, it just happens to namedrop one of the books as well. The "song of ice and fire" quote is a title drop for its own sake — it doesn't tell you anything meaningful about the series.
If you wanted to go for duality, an ice-themed quote about the Others and a fire-themed quote about the war would be the way to go. For example;
Actually, why not use "Valar Morghulis" and "Valar Dohaeris" as quotes? They both sum up the series pretty well. "All Men Must Die" covers the backstabbing "you win or you lose" aspect of the books and "All Men Must Serve" covers the Myth Arc part. (All men must serve to fight the Others or something.)
Army of Thieves and Whores is YMMV? How? Why? Since when?
It's not listed as such on the trope page.
When Tyrion talks with Varys in A Storm Of Swords, Varys mentions his mutilated nose and Tyrion sarcastically jokes "Perhaps I should have a new one made of gold." Later, Jaime loses his right hand and has it replaced with a gold one. Should this go under Foreshadowing, "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, Brick Joke or something else?
None of the above? I don't think there's any significance to this. Prosthetic limbs are a thing and Lannisters have an association with gold.
Their house symbol is a lion on a field of red. Basically, they symbolize wealth and blood. Pretty good symbolism, considering most in the family are ridiculously rich and go around causing death and bloodshed. It shows off how they are like lions, perhaps more so then like humans, as well as their misuse of wealth.
Ostentatious conspicuous consumption isn't necessarily a "misuse" of wealth, but that's a matter of some fairly heavy duty economic theory.
Anyway, if you're in a medieval setting and you need a prosthetic, your best options are probably either the Berserk approach or something ostentatious. That's why I'd say it's both coincidence and a reference to Tywin's fondness for showing off his old money.
I wanted to contest the removal of these examples:
I think it's appropriate to list Bloodraven as possibly a Heroic Albino. I haven't read the prequels, so I'm not sure how well he comes off there, but doesn't he seem potentially good at least in his appearance in ADWD? I get the impression he's based on Elric Of Melinbone, another character hard to classify as Evil Albino or Heroic Albino.
Also, I think the Kingswood Brotherhood should be listed under Just Like Robin Hood- They basically sound like the Merry Men of earlier stories (before the "rob from the rich and the give to the poor" came in- they just did the first part).
Hmmm. Robbing from the rich and giving to the poor is a central part of the Just Like Robin Hood trope, though. In fact, the trope admits that early Robin Hood is a poor example of the trope.
From what I've seen, Bloodraven comes off as more conflicted than heroic in the prequels.
Fibrodisplasia Ossificans Progressiva (FOP) is a genetic disease and the calcification of the fibrous tissue is internal, meaning that while the deformities caused by the disease are visible, the skin remains unaffected.
Leprosy and Smallpox cause serious skin lesions that can leave the skin looking as if petrified, are lethal if untreated, and contagious, meaning it fits Greyscale much better.
Shifting Too Dumb To Live to the YMMV page, since there are opinions there I disagree with and I'm sure others might.
Out of curiosity, do you think it might be time to split the individual books into their own pages, like with the Harry Potter books? I ask this as someone who's relatively new to the series and am trying not get spoiled for the later books (am in the middle of A Co K now). I don't think I'm the only new fan brought in by the TV show who is also an avid troper. Besides, I think each book could support plenty of its own tropes.
That might be a good idea. The page is getting rather long, and this is better than to folderize it.
Splitting this page into separate book pages would make it too fractured. Lots of tropes apply to many books, and to the setting itself. That's a lot of repetition and redundancy. Also, tropes develop as the books go on, which would lead to a constant influx of spoilers. It's a bad idea to read a trope page if you don't want to be spoiled. Discussing what happens is the whole point.
I think, maybe, if there's time/energy for a massive overhaul, we have a general page, then a page for each of the books. They're pretty expanisve, and there'd definitely be enough to fill each.
We could do like with Avatar The Last Airbender or Order Of The Stick and sort the tropes alphabetically?
Added a Did Not Do The Research entry regarding the eating of snow/ice as means to drink water. This is a very bad idea if you want to preserve your body heat; the solution for this is putting snow/ice in a sack and warming it beneath your clothes.
The characters - Bran & Co. - certainly had the means to do this since they knew where they were going and a simple sack for carrying water is one of the first things you need in these circumstances. One would imagine people from the north would know this.
IMO it was an oversight on G. Martin's part, yet still an example of the trope. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It might not be the best idea in a cold environment, but Martin never claims it is, so is not the the trope. You might file this under Artistic License, but for Did Not Do The Research, there would have to be something there that directly contradicts a real life fact.
Thanks, I think I got it.
How about locking the page from any new edits for a week or so? The new book just came out and doing so would hold off on unmarked spoilers flooding in.
Out of curiosity: does anyone know—has it even been established?—how Littlefinger got his nickname? I mean, it's not like he has a Right Red... little finger or something.
He's the lord of the smallest of the peninsulas known as "The Fingers" - hence, Littlefinger.
Ah, sense is made. Thxmuch.
Regarding the recent mass movement of things to YMMV - I would say things like Ensemble Darkhorse is not a matter of opinion - those characters are genuinely popular. There is no subjectivity there. Same for things like fan nicknames and so on.
There's a thread to debate that on the forums where the people in charge will actually see it.
Oh right...I thought that this was a one-off movement...
Catelyn doesn't really apply, since there's no alternate interpretation. She's written with flaws, and some readers just get more angry about those flaws. The in-world stuff doesn't apply either, since the trope is about fan perceptions, not characters having different opinions on one another.
Shouldn't A Game Of Thrones redirect to Game of Thrones? People are going to be using it to refer to the series as soon as it starts.
I removed these:
According to the trope page, the trope is intended for out-of-character actions or contrived misunderstandings. All of these actions are, while misguided and even dumb, are in character.
Does my Abusive Precursors example fit?
I'm saying they aren't as bad as other examples because they didn't leave extremely dangerous world-breaking artifacts lying around, but I just wanted to ask about this before putting it on the page.
I don't think so. They never messed around with the civilizations that came after them. They were just an empire that collapsed. And the Free Cities aren't named because they necessarily feel they've cast off the shackles of evil overlords. They're simply independent and self-ruled cities.
Noted, thanks for the input.
They might turn out to be more abusive if some dangerous magic turns up later though. If the Doom was caused by something, whatever it was might still be lying around, for instance.
Took these out for further discussion:
Some of these really don't fit. How is Timmet an evil genius? And Daven is a pretty decent guy. Not The Brute at all. Plus, he's only in one scene. If anything, Jaime is The Brute, being the dumb fighter who loves slaughter, and the Dragon is Kevan, Tywin's right hand man.
For the Five Bad Band, Id replace Daven with the Gregor Clegane. Also, I think Tywin only wishes that Jaime would act as his Dragon but Jaime is to unpredictable. Cersei wants to be the Dragon but she lacks the Brains/Brawns/Judgement so Tywin ignores her. Tyrion is the most qualified Lannister to be the Dragon, but because of his Dwarfism his father discounts him. That leaves Kevan the dragon by default.
The Five Bad Band for the Lannister regime eventually becomes Cersei (Big Bad), Kevan (The Dragon, and Only Sane Man), Franken-Gregor (The Brute), Qyburn (Evil Genius) and Pycelle (The Dark Chick).
The recruits of the Night's Watch fit perfectly though. Jon (The Hero), Ghost (The Lancer and Team Pet), Pyp (The Smart Guy), Grenn (The Big Guy), and Sam (The Chick).
During the rebellion, the major players from houses Baratheon, Lannister and Stark made a Power Trio against the Targaryens as well. Boisterous Bruiser Robert was the emotional revenge-driven id, hidebound Ned the superego and self-interested Jaime the ego.
I still think it's a stretch. In the first two instances there are many more people on those 'teams' you're ignoring because they don't happen to fit in the band roles. Where does Littlefinger fit? Or is he no longer part of the team after he leaves for the Vale? How about Mace Tyrell, who's still at least nominally on the Lannisters' side? At the wall, I'd say Sam would be at least as good as The Smart Guy, and Small Paul a better The Big Guy. On top of that, both of these 'bands' shift repeatedly throughout the course of the series. As I'm sure you know, Kevan and Robert Strong are only present simultaneously for a brief time, and Sam hasn't been anywhere near the wall for some time.
As for the Power Trio example, Jaime switches sides very late in the rebellion and does so for different reasons than the others. Hoster Tullly and Jon Arryn both have a more central role in the rebellion, and since neither of them get to have flashbacks to it, it's tricky to characterize their motivations.
In summary, I just don't think these 'hero team' and 'villain team' tropes are useful to describe characters in this series for a number of reasons.
GRRM recently wrote the following for the Suvudu Cage Match between Rand and Jamie.
""No one is ta'veren in Westeros," said Tyrion. "Our gods are fickler than yours. They have no favorites." Though there a few they like to piss on, now that I reflect on it.""
He later said ""We have our own Creator here... a crueler one than yours, I fear. In his domain the only pattern is the one men make themselves, There are no ta'veren. No man is ever safe.""
I feel like we should somehow include these quotes (or parts of these quotes) on the page, but I don't know how.
Reverting the Half-Human Hybrid and Offstage Villainy examples. The former because no reason was given for its deletion, and the latter because the stated reason does not appear to be valid. Yes, the Bolton's aren't particularly worse than some of the other houses, but this example was not about House Bolton in general, it was about Ramsey Bolton in particular. And it's a valid example because, so far, most of his villainy has been off stage. Hence his inclusion in the example. I did rewrite it slightly, though.
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How well does it match the trope?