Discussion HoYay / Supernatural

A year late, so I don't know if you're still around, but as a relative outsider to the show (paid almost no attention to it while it was still airing, and knew very little about it prior to the whole Destielgate situation, although I have some basic knowledge via mutuals) I am currently going through this page on the Ho Yay Cleanup Thread right now:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13557475650A60600100&page=11

I would appreciate getting some help on this, as again I do not watch the show, which should give me some kind of objectivity filter, but some examples I thought were Fan Wank ended up being pretty legit with proper context.

Were that to occur most of this would be extraneous material at best. The Homoerotic Subtext trope would go on the Main page, to describe Dean and Cas' relationship over the past seasons, and the Relationship Upgrade trope would likewise have to be added to the Main to cover the relationship becoming canon. The Ho Yay page could probably kept, in honor of all the other ships besides Destiel that have been popularized among fans (especially Wincest).

Of course, this is an entirely speculative issue, since there is no indication that they will become canon anytime soon.

While I agree with you 100%, trying to stop Supernatural shipping is decidedly futile. As long as we can keep it on the YMMV page (which is where we note fan-reactions) or the Ho Yay page (which, let's face it, newbies won't be going to), it should be fine. That said, some clean up here would be worthwhile because... seriously, a lot of this is a massive stretch.

Folks, remember that BY DEFINITION Ho Yay is subjective and largely open to individual interpretation. That is what differentiates it from canon bisexuality/homosexuality. Virtually ALL Ho Yay is YMMV. So of course all of the examples will be based on interpretation.

If these relationships were canon, but just not well-depicted onscreen the trope would be But Not Too Gay instead. If the homoerotic tease is deliberately being played onscreen as part of the story, the trope is Homoerotic Subtext. Ho Yay refers to such interpretation in the eyes of the viewers.

That's the thing, this page does sound like it belongs on "But Not Too Gay". I still could just be not gettin it, but would that mean "Dean flirted with Aaron and seemed to really enjoy it" (proven false by Word of God, but still stays because it is interpretation) is the same as "Thanks to that last scene, we see Dean coming in touch with his bisexuality, which is one step closer to making Destiel canon" (ad-lib from an actual line, also disproven by Word of God)? (One being the interpretation of a scene, the other being a statement of fact, I mean. The only problem I see here is statements of fact not being interpretation, which clashes with the trope definition?)

Well, going back to the definition of Ho Yay:

"Those moments of plot, dialogue, acting, etc., that FANS delight in INTERPRETING as homoerotic."

In other words, Ho Yay has NOTHING to do with Word of God. It is homoeroticism from the FANS' perspective, not from that of the creators or performers. This is exactly why Ho Yay resides entirely in a separate category and has its own page rather than even being put onto the YMMV section of most articles. It is also why it contains so many purely speculative examples.

A common confusion is with Homoerotic Subtext. This is a blurry area wherein creators DO insert scenes of with homosexual overtones but do not actually carry them all the way to any kind of consummation, often as a kind tease for the audience or a source of comedy. A good example of this was Jack and Ianto in series one of Torchwood, who engaged in flirtation, made statements suggesting that they intended to have sex and generally had dialogue indicating a developing relationship and which was later given a Relationship Upgrade and became an Official Couple in series two, at which point it was no longer subtext.

But Not Too Gay is when the characters ARE canonically gay/bi or at least If It's You, It's Okay, yet actual romantic/sexual aspects of their relationships are not shown onscreen or occur between pages, leaving the audience aware that the characters are gay/bi but not significantly depicting it. Danny on Teen Wolf or Griffin on The Secret Life Of The American Teenager are both examples of But Not Too Gay characters (i.e. their sexuality is explicitly stated but not generally depicted).

Ho Yay has a direct connection to Shipping and Slash Fic. Consequently, fans tend to extrapolate their suppositions into directions that may directly conflict with Word of God. This is a normal aspect of Ho Yay (and a large part of the fun) and to be expected. It is why the trope exists in the first place in fact. Thus all the hypothetical stuff here is normal, and is on this page specifically to keep it off the Main and YMMV pages.

The thing is, when fans begin to see, well, everything as being homoerotic, it really undermines when there are examples that aren't just pure Shipping Goggles.

The problem is that it is like pointing at clouds and saying what they are shaped like. Two people may give two very different answers. This ends up being a referee problem. Who is to say that something is or is not "homoerotic" from the Ho Yay perspective? Because it is entirely in the eyes of the viewer, and there are a lot of viewers, there will inevitably be a lot of subjective opinions. It is not as easy to police as a more clear-cut trope like Homoerotic Subtext where the homoeroticism actually has to be there, on purpose, and not just in the eyes of shippers.