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The article is extremely heavily biased against ponies and conversions, up to explicit anti-pony propaganda. I think I can do something about it.
The tone of the article accurately reflects the average tone of the majority of the fics in the Recursive Fanfiction spawned from the original. The only bias presented is the bias of the majority of the fics, where Anti-conversion stance is the majority opinion presented on the human side.
Well, I can show examples of biased tropes that related to the main story.
'Reality Ensues' is a pretty damn silly trope to invoke in a universe where magic is a thing. One could just as easily say 'reality ensues' the other way, with magic-wielding ponies completely invalidating traditional human ballistics. 'Blow up everything' might work pretty damn well in human warfare but it's ridiculous to suggest things would work that simply with a completely different set of physics in play.
There are few tropes that I feel that should be move to general instead of being at the top but I like to ask that the tropes for the original should be the first tropes a person should see is about the original. Mainly should the first trope list should only be related with the original story and that story only? If so then here are the tropes that should be move to the General List and edit to fit the original story.
Edit: * Scary Dogmatic Ponies: The ponies borrow elements from two of the four types.
I will make these edits in roughly 2 weeks from now unless something happened or someone tells me that the first tropes really do refer to both the original and other stories.
Harsher in Hindsight: In First Contact, the US Northeast, New York City in particular, is threatened by an incoming humongous hurricane. First Contact was published before Hurricane Sandy.
Please show me where this occurs in Blaze's story.
Does the trope Not Evil, Just Misunderstood, fit some incarnations of Celestia?
In some cases, like Not Alone, Celestia thinks that she's trying to help Humanity but she doesn't have any dark motivations.
I'd have to say so, for some cases, but of course not for all of them.
It's unlocked now.
And guys, if Alumnus or any of those guys come back, just report it.
...it actually got unlocked?! *Checks newspaper* Yes, the weather report for Hell has indicated snow and cold weather.
And yes, plz just report shinagins going on. With this being unlocked, I'd hate to see it locked again.
Anyways, another reminder, as much as y'all hate Chatoyance, the tropes page is not the place to showcase it.
Since it's locked maybe we can move this to Mirror Wiki?
Link here: http://tropes.wikia.com/wiki/The_Conversion_Bureau
I can haz unlock plz?
Doubtful; chances are, if we did, we'd get yet another pro-Bureau person joining the wiki entirely to editbomb the page, forcing yet another editwar-until-we-lock-it-again.
Then ban the person doing the edit warring, don't just up and lock the article and go "lol we don't care" cause that's pretty much what they're doing.
Not sure why it double posted.
I petitioned for an unlock on The Forum.
What should we add into the Chatoyance entries now that she's been banned from Fimfiction.net due to using alternate accounts to upvote her stories? If you don't believe that, have the following link. http://www.fimfiction.net/blog/187023/a-moment-of-silence-for-the-fallen
And now she's unbanned.
Why isn't the original author (Blaze) listed anywhere on the page? I understand it's a shared universe, but the first sentence is about the original story.
He's mentioned in the first section of tropes, but I agree that he should probably be mentioned in the introduction. I'll add it.
And another topic that's permanently locked. Lame.
You can blame Alumnus, mustachioedhero and vuvzilla for that.
They kept adding justifying edits to the page and deleting anything that made Chatoyance's stories look bad.
More of the cancer that has made this site what it currently is. A cesspit for fanboys that can't take opinions.
Given how idiotic the edit-warring is, I should have seen this coming. It makes me sick to the core.
It's a shame. I thought maybe it'd just be for a week or so until the edit war people were bored and moved on, but I guess not. Yeah, maybe the page was a little slanted, but it was becoming more balanced prior to the edit wars.
I wouldn't be adversed to things here getting locked to let the edit war cool down, but the problem is, things NEVER get unlocked. It's stupid if you ask me.
^EXACTLY. Locking it for a while until the Edit war calmed down is fine, but once something gets locked here, people rarely bother to unlock it.
It's a problem the site management has, along with renaming things that shouldn't be renamed. Hell, even the main Fi M page itself got locked due to the trolling and has yet to be unlocked. Kinda bad if you ask me.
Okay, is there a trope for this?
In The Other Side of the Spectrum, the group Ponies for Human Life (PHL) started out as a non-violent protest group, then moved into sabotage and then finally became a full-blown army.
He Who Fights Monsters?
Not exactly since, He Who Fights Monsters is about someone on the good side becoming more and more like whoever they're fighting against.
What I'm talking about is the group getting more and more extreme after lesser tactics have failed.
The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized perhaps?
Ehh, it's all true but let's keep it off the main page.
Aaand, looks like we've got another apologist putting in justifications and justifying edits while referring to it as removing natter and "balance", who has, according to edit history, come to the wiki exclusively for the Conversion Bureau.
Anybody volunteering to look through and fix (possibly by just deleting the entries with justifying edits alltogether, which would admittedly leave a very short page)?
He deleted Body Horror.
Having read her fics, yes, underdosing on the potion leads to a gruesome death. And yes, the HLF, hate the pony form. And yes, the PER see the human body as such.
Ehh, you wanna bring up Mustachioed Hero's edits to "Ask the Tropers"?
Seriously, first vuvzilla, then Alumnus and now him. What is it with her "cultists"?
I've raised the issue of a possible lock there, since that's realistically the only option (also asking if there ARE other options I'm missing).
My feeling is at least they are trying to be somewhat rational, even though they are perhaps going too far. With the Mass Effect 3 ending apologist (yes, singular plural,) all he does is launch multiple sock accounts to vandalize and attack fans, I think seven is his daily record. With that said I think adding hidden text around each contested example as well as sending a PM about it to the apologists might be an idea.
Apparently, he also vandalized Not Alone.
Chatoyance claims her TCB stories are about Transhumanism. Would this fit under:
Certainly Transhuman Treachery.
Hey, ya'll think Blackmesh Security is an expy of Blackwater?
That's pretty much the intent, yes.
So I rewrote the lead section to better summarize the series.
I don't quite like the misanthropy paragraph, but I couldn't figure out how to mention TCB's bad reputation without being quite that biased. Maybe someone could improve that, though.
It seems neutral to me- it mentions that not all stories have that tone. Maybe mention some of the arguments against it being misanthropy, or reword it to mention that it has been accused of being misanthropic by some rather than saying it has that reputation? Or maybe that's worse?
The problem is that the arguments against its misanthropy are...biased to say the least, especially given that they come from Chatoyance and Midnightshadow.
I'll see what I can do.
Definitely. To be honest, I think it's fine now, though- it addresses that some have tried to write their stories to at least try to avert it.
Can anyone point me to where the request leading to the recent changes to the main and quotes pages was made?
To answer my own question, there hasn't been one.
Alumnus' six-day-long editing history has been spent changing entries on the Conversion Bureau pages to be entirely positive – especially ones relating to JDR – and he's straight out replacing negative or critical entries on the quotations page with ones of lofty praise.
He's almost certainly somebody from FimFiction's Conversion Bureau group, seeing as he replaced Dalek Ix's quote with a post JDR made there only a few minutes earlier.
Volunteering to correct/alert relevant parties?
There's really no need to go alerting anyone. He might be a poster the Anti-Conversion Bureau group just banned after his revealing that he's spent the last week or so trying to stir up a fight and destabilize a "truce" they have with the TCB group concerning JDR.
I'll probably go through and revert things later, because it's a real chore to deal with large numbers of edits and I'm not feeling up to it at the moment.
I fixed up a bit but there's a lot that needs to be done.
Anyone want to help?
Like I said, I'll go through and revert the edits later, when I'm feeling up to it.
And Alumnus is back with more of the same. I note that he's now making minute grammatical changes to random other pages in order to pad out his edit history. I've reverted his changes to the YMMV and Quotes pages, and I'm going to start in on the main page now.
There is a difference between a balanced listing of tropes and a hate page. The topic of the Conversion Bureau is contentious, and unless the tone is made neutral and professional, rather than spiteful, there will be no end to trouble.
Secondly, the author 'Chatoyance' has specifically requested that her real name be left out of the tropes pages, as well as personal information, it is reasonable to accommodate this, unless the purpose of the page is indeed to be merely an attack.
I have put in a request to have the entry locked in any case.
While a neutral tone is certainly something to strive for, your edits tend to be more akin to fawning praise than anything else.
Jennifer Reitz makes no secret that she writes her Conversion Bureau stories under the Chatoyance alias. Her Fimfiction bio links to her personal web page, where she openly states her pen name, as well as her previous webcomics, as does her Deviant Art account. That she would demand to remain anonymous here – and only here – while openly displaying her identity everywhere else is completely nonsensical. I haven't been able to find where she has made any such request; you seem to be the only one privy to it.
The tactic you are using is both obvious and duplicitous. You're editing pages to present JDR's – and almost solely JDR's – stories in a positive light, and then leaving a "reason for editing" which implies that you are restoring a vandalized page in the hope that a moderator will lock the page with your edits in place.
I was wondering when this would inevitably happen.
Regardless of anything else he's right that Chatoyance's real name should not be used. It's very disrespectful and honestly, I feel a little silly for not having done that myself already. And while the tone of this page has always been rather openly hostile, I also agree that Alumnus went too far in the reversal, particularly with regard to the use of justifications - either a trope is legitimate or it isn't.
All right, everything's cleaned up.
The links are removed, Chatoyance's real name has been removed, intro has been redone, the hostility has been toned down somewhat.
I really want to say this about Chatoyance but I know it contravenes Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement... even if from my encounters with her and from reports by other people, these appear to be true.
I agree with both of those, but it is definitely toeing the line between talking about the work and the author personally. Then again, there is the It's All About Me part of the page.
I like to read this trope page, since I don't follow ponies nor read any works, perhaps it's Bile Fascination, but I found something: Is Chatoyance this person?
That's her all right.
Having seen the fandom (both pro and con) of TCB as well as having read some of the stories (pro and con, including the vile ones by JDR), I have this to say:
In Tales of Los Pegasus, the potion is stated to set the drinker's sexual orientation to pansexual.
It's already mentioned in the YMMV page under Unfortunate Implications.
What trope would the potion fit under?
Cure Your Gays
Het Is Ew
Bury Your Gays
I'd say Cure Your Gays and/or Het Is Ew. At least from the author's perspective, they aren't being denied a "happy" ending, or dying for being gay, for that matter.
There are a lot of things that I feel that are wrong with the tropes associated with the original story. Some of these tropes are more about the Conversion Bureau Universe in General rather than the original story. Before trying to make these changes myself, I feel that it's best to discuss which tropes belong in the original story and which ones belong in the general so there wouldn't be an edit war or Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement. Here's a few that I believed that belonged in the general or should have their explanation changed:
I added Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement tags mainly because I've seen conversations about these fics (and JDR) get really nasty.
Alright, seriously guys. This is out of control. You may not like JDR, I'm not crazy about her myself, but let's try to keep the tropes focused on the works and not on the author?
How about a Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement tag?
What can I say about the fic and its spinoffs being Canon Defilement?
Even though I'd agree I think we made that one "no examples plz" you might be able to put it under the YMMV tab though.
Okay, these tropes need expansion:
I'm looking at these tropes, and whatever the ponies opinions about the human race this seems like a massive attempt to paint the ponies black.
Genocide? Sounds more like an extinction event that the ponies are trying to insure some or everyone survives.
And there's plenty of sci-fi that involves humanity becoming something new. So it's an equine instead of energy
The fact that the potion modifies the mind and that the ponified must abandon their country and culture makes it Genocide.
still a common sci-fi element few are condemned for.
plus genocide and culteral genocide are different things
The ponies were complete assholes in the original fic.
Should we add a separate section for especially notable TCB fics, like Ten Minutes/Ten Rounds, Not Alone and The First year?
That was my intention in splitting JDR's works off from the rest, since different authors have different settings and angles on the core concept.
On FimFiction, there seem to be a substantial Hatedom for the The Conversion Bureau. Should I count it?
Any more tropes y'all can find?
I personally despise the story and some of the more famous authors (Chatoyance especially) really piss me off (It's Nothing Personal though) but I am willing to read this piece of shit to fill out this page.
I've been chipping away at filling out a subpage for JDR's stories, but it's slow going because of how miserable they are. I plan to toss it all into a collapsible tab, since they seem like the best way to split up different author's settings.
I was reminded of it when I saw that her most recent story is a fix fic which portrays the parts of the show she hates as a perverted version of the "real Equestria", using her godawful version as canon.
Thanks, ILSS. Yeah, I know how painful reading her stories can be.
Ugh, I only read a little snippet before I was like "Fuck this, I'm done!"
On a sidenote, does I Wish It Were Real fit? JDR once said, "Sigh. Equestria can't rise from the ocean fast enough."
Fan Wank might fit too as someone accused her of it with regards to a large blog post about her fanon and how disappointed she was with Season 2.
You know, I saw that on the interview with Blaze. He himself seems like a cool guy whose story well, kinda of got out of hand. Chat on the other hand.....
I can see why she'd be disappointed with Season 2 as it clearly counters a lot of what she wrote such as in Putting your Hoof Down where a lot of the ponies were assholes to Fluttershy. Me on the other hand? Derpy situation aside, I rather enjoyed Season 2.
Anyways though, the article is looking pretty good!
I agree with Dr Hooves. In the interview, Blaze seems genuinely surprised that his story got screwed for being a misanthropic piece of shit.
And JDR has some rather serious issues. Though that's probably something we shouldn't put on the page.
How's this for an example?
Yeah, let's try not getting the page locked, especially if it does, it'll never get unlocked annoyingly enough.
As for that deal, that looks good, though I can see why people would make that assumption giving that Pinkie and Twilight were semi-OOC and the quotes that they used, so honestly, while Blaze does seem cool, I can see why people would assume the story was misanthropic.
I made a point not to say anything about JDR outside of her MLP:FiM fanfics. If anyone wants to know more about her, they can go to Google. As far as I'm concerned, though, anything she says on Ponychan or FimFiction.net is fair game.
Concerning Blaze, I've been trying to find some trope covering things that have something of an undeserved reputation or have been built up to be worse than they are. The original story isn't even all that bad: the first chapter is the worst and the one that earned it its reputation. By the second Twilight doubts that they're doing the right thing, by the third she's repentant, and by the fourth the entire ponification plotline kind of fades into the background in favor of a wacky adventure.
ILSS, Never Live It Down sounds like a good fit.
Yeah, those look like they're right, though I never read The 800 Year Promise since I'm not a big fan of Chat's stuff, obviously, though I do remember skimming over the 27 Ounces one and remember that scene with the body horror, so that's definitely right.
Edit: Said red link has been fixed.
Also, should I move the Fantastic Nuke trope to the General section of the spinoffs? I don't think that was ever mentioned in Blaze's story where as it has been in the spinoffs.
JDR's The PER: Michelson and Morely - The Speed Of Right
I'm wondering if they'd be more Villain Protagonist, giving that Celestia supposedly denounces them, but I don't know.
The difference is that a Villain Protagonist is never painted in a heroic light by the author. Designated Hero is someone who is painted in a heroic light by the author despite them doing acts that would be considered villainous.
I read snippets of that story and its fairly obvious who we're supposed to cheer on (the PER terrorists).
Looking at the last chapter of the story, there isn't any ambiguity at all. JDR has Celestia privately pardoning them, and Luna actively praising them.
It's disappointing, given that an earlier story had Luna manipulating events to lead Celestia to a PER cell's headquarters, but I can't say I'm surprised – her stories aren't anywhere near as consistent as she likes to claim.
So are we all on a consensus that Michealson and Morely and the PER are Designated Heroes?
I'd have to read the story to tell whether it fits or not, but I'm willing to throw out a blind guess that they are.
Yeah, after reading that description, I think Designated Hero would probably fit better.
For some reason the site derped and put a double post.
I thought I'd make this. Granted, the Humans Are Bastards setting upsets me, but giving how many fics this thing spawned, I figured it deserved an article.
Though the problem is, my articles are not that great, if someone could clean it up and add tropes, I'd appreciate it.
Makes sense, if we have a page for FATAL, we can have one for this piece of trash.
I'm sure as hell not going to put time into it, though.
I'll have to check that FATAL thing, and I'm sure if more are added, others can work on the main title. that being asked, is that Recursive Fanfiction thing something that can be added into the trope section as well?
FATAL is unrelated, but...well...words really can't describe how terrible it is. Suffice to say, shitty works get trope pages too.
But now that we've got a tropes section, I suppose it's not too much trouble for me to toss in a couple more.
Not sure about the recursive fanfiction thing myself though.
Oh derp, it'd probably be good if I posted a link to where you could read the fic as well, I can't believe I forgot that. Also, thanks for the adds, the article doesn't look so bad with a few tropes in that section now.
That said, the article looks far too negative at this point. Most of these tropes are just one audience reaction ("These ponies are bad!") repeated over and over again. Don't like the fic myself, but it does look pretty grating when the entire trope section looks like an YMMV subpage escapee. We need more objectivity, actual plot points etc.
Is this page just for the original story, or are we using it for its spinoffs as well? If we are, we should figure out how we want to split them up.
I think we could probably split the trope section up for the spinoffs, and if we do, I should add where you can find them as well.
Korodzik: You want more tropes, add more tropes. Mine may have been negative but they were the only ones I could really remember.
Dr Whooves: Agreed, that'll avoid confusion about which tropes apply where.
There we go, added the trope section for the spinoffs. Also, I'm now morbidly curious, I never seen one of these spinoffs where forced ponification happens, other then a couple of Ten Rounds universe fics. Anyone got a link or such?
Mainly cause I'm wondering if it's HLF members that this happens to since I know none of Chat's fics focuses on any ponified HLF members after the event happens, but of course, not like that matters in her universe since in her stories, all the ponies are pretty much one of those with the smilies painted on your souls trope applied.
I read Last Man Standing, and it's actually a really damn good Deconstruction of the original. I've given it an appropriate tribute on the YMMV page.
Yeah, that's where I got the Driven to Suicide trope, from that one. Lol, that's the only trope I know of for the spinoff fics.
I've added a few representative quotes. Fantastic Racism courtesy of half the Elements of Harmony!
Thanks. Honestly, I can see Dash saying that, but Twilight and Pinkie? Hell no, and sadly, that Yellowstone comment was good, up until the end, then it got kinda ruined.
Yeah, this is the problem that most people (myself included) have with MOST of the Conversion Bureau.
why wouldn't Twilight? She's a fanatical researcher and a lot of people blame the bad things some people do, or the things that people ignore as being unable to change as human nature.
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