Discussion Characters / SuperRobotWarsJudgment

Actually that was why we made it that Touya is The Hero, he is the main focus overall. While he did get captured and then the focus shifted on Calvina, well that was why she is the Supporting Protagonist, while she can have a decent amount of screentime, in terms of importance, she loses out to Touya. The myth of Fury is more closely linked to Touya, that's why he has the bigger billing and being The Hero despite often times being MacGuffin.

Exactly! So Mysterion your edits don’t make a whole lot of sense.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

That's factually incorrect to say that Calvina takes over for Touya while he's gone. The opposite is true: Touya's plotline fades into the background between him discovering the drive to become a pilot, and him actually being captured. It's not until Touya gets some answers from that and kidnaps the princess in his escape, that he becomes an active participant in the plot again, rather than a MacGuffin the villains are after.

Between those points the Judgement part of the plot revolves around: Calvina's grudge, Al-Van's supremely poor communication skills, and Jau-Mu's rise and fall as a knight as he battles Calvina (in the chapters where Lamalice aren't distracting everyone). In other words, it's about Calvina and the villains' connection to her.

Edited by Mysterion

Early Earth route:

• E-Selda flees the Moon with Granteed and dies in front of his son. Touya is traumatised by this, and taken into protective custody by the military while they try to figure out if he and the girls could be spies. Watching his classmates (The GC characters) dive into the Super Robot Lifestyle compared to his reluctance, he manages to pilot the Granteed against Crystal Dragoon, though before and after this, he has trouble getting it to run.

Early Space route:

• Calvina is picked up by the Hiryu during a fight with Fury using earth mecha. While they fight various unidentified space threats (including more Fury), and adjust to the new leadership after the last game, her different context and understanding of war is shown off.

Late Earth Route

• The two sides briefly meet up, and Calvina is moved over to the earth side. She clashes with Touya, but they need to team up to hold off a Fury attack led by Al-Van. Al-Van casually disables the Belzelute without realizing who's inside and offers to explain things to Touya if he comes with him. Touya rejects this offer while pointing out that Al-Van's actions don't show him to be trustworthy, and Al-Van admits it's a fair accusation. Calvina's resolve hardens further.

Combined Path: (11-29)

• The Fury Spies show off their Larsellium powers, but don't manage to capture Touya the first time. Everyone is distracted by the sudden appearance of Lamalice, which can only be destroyed permanently by mechs with special powers. When the fury and Steel Dragons have the time to fight again, Al-Van realizes that Calvina is piloting the Belzelute and offers her the chance to join him, while not doing anything to contradict her accusation that he destroyed Ash'ari-Kreutzer. This goes predictably, though Calvina remains Al-Van's focus until he's imprisoned for his failures. Jau-Mu is given the freed spot, but pledges to destroy Calvina, blaming her for his mentor's fall from grace. However, Calvina outmatches him decisively in his first first battle as a knight, and he accidentally breaks the Larsiellium taboo in his desperation to survive, while destroying the Belzelute. He's immediately court-martialed and moved to the Spy division, starting his spiral into madness. Calvina is glad to be rid of the Belzelute, despite it's power, but her commanders refuse to just put her in a standard AM, and have figured out enough about who made it to go get the Bellzelute Brigandi for her. One last gambit by both sides ends with Touya captured, the Steel dragons having a counter to Larsellium, and So-Des dead at Calvina's hands after claiming credit for Ash'ari-Kreutzer's destruction. This settles Calvina's grudge enough that she can step back from the spotlight a bit, though she still has a lot to worry about. The Military brass has another mission for the Steel Dragons' main force, so they send their civilian contractors, including Calvina, with the Kurogane to look for Touya.
• This was 18 chapters out of 48!

Moon Route:

• As the search for Touya starts to track him down, Calvina and Jau-Mu clash again. Meanwhile, Touya encounters the Princess Shana-Mia, discovers the truth behind his heritage, and opens her eyes to just how evilly her underlings have been acting. After Dracodeus breaks him out of prison and docks with Granteed for it's upgrade, Touya is forced to kidnap Shana-Mia to keep the Fury at bay while he escapes.

Endgame

• Shana-Mia agrees to work with earth's military leadership to win the peace after her people lose the war, even going so far as to accept the presence of a secret Bomb in Granteed to kill Touya and herself should that seem like a good idea without complaint. The Steel Dragons need to deal with all the big bosses quickly, as the top brass are ready to use deadly gas against their alien enemies (despite this being as across the line in context as Nukes in gundam).

Ultimately, Al-Van escapes prison to join the heroes, Gu-Landon is defeated, and all the Judgement characters decide to leave to settle elsewhere in space as there's too much bad blood between the Fury and Earth now, but the Guests know a few places...

Edited by Mysterion

The first part of that relies on Calvina being selected. However even then her grudge is never the main point. It’s about Touya’s heratage and granted. Even the steel dragons acknowledge Touya as the bigger fish despite their past with Calvina.

At the end it’s just as Chris X said the story revolves around Touya and Granteed. Again his character development is going on throughout the game at the same time as Calvina’s revenge.

Blazing Trolls, that is a lie. Calvina makes a strong impression before the route split is determined, and after she joins the earth route.

I suggest that you go and review the source material. I've demonstrated 1/3 of the game has Touya's role being "Okay I'll go be bait." while receiving no character focus. You have given no argument whatsoever in response.

How is it a lie? Two people have explained to you how Calvina revenge is not the main focus. Calvina dosnt make any more impact than Touya. She’s barley even present for the first part on Touya’s route. Touya’s route also has more criticle plot details. And while Calvina is going through character development so is Touya, so fail to see how you came to you’re conclusion.

If anything Calvina’s want for revenge hinders the team, while Touya does more to help out at first.

You claimed that Calvina's role depends on picking the Space route first. I pointed out that wasn't true.

I've presented evidence for my claims. You have made claims, which I have demonstrated are false, and did nothing to back them up from the start.

Even the claim that the Earth route has more plot points is arguable. Give me a list, and I bet I could provide a list of plot points on the Space route that match it in size. But that's not what we're arguing about.

Edited by Mysterion

Yes it does matter Calvina isn’t even present in Touya’s route for the first part. https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC51XVPzxb8Sa-H1O3PFeOX7ggqJi_NSF

Again the main plot is Touya’s heritage so it wouldn’t matter what was going on on Calvina’s side. As we said her revenge is not the main focus.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

http://akurasu.net/wiki/Super_Robot_Wars/OGMD/Complete_Chart She makes an introductory appearance in the prologue, and is absent from 7 chapters. Oh, how irrelevant she is!

You keep insisting that Touya is the one and only main character, but that playlist you linked to (which I have watched, and I suspect you haven't) doesn't support that! It supports me!

Touya's heritage is not the main plot! It's one of the big plot threads at the start and end of the game, competing with Akemi and Akimi, Rubble Pile, Fighter Roar vs the Dark Brain Army, and shakeups in leadership. And in all that, Touya gets 8-10 chapters at the beginning, and about 15 at the end. Calvina gets 18-20 in the middle where Touya is pushed out of focus.

Edited by Mysterion

In what way does what is show support you. The main focus of the the prologue in granteed, which Touya’s route follows. The key of the plot is both Touya and granteed, which are both the main factors in the plot. Calvina’s route does not follow granteed, plus her revenge is not key to plot. She’s basically at the mercy of things bigger than her, but that doesn’t mean she’s not important. Again both are main characters more importance is put on Touya however.

There is no point Touya is out of focus he and Granteed are key at any point of the story. I think you’re taking into account Calvina’s route only without focusing on the overall plot.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

No. I'm simply acknowledging that Granteed and Touya spend a significant portion of the plot as a mere macguffin while other Main Characters take on the Hero role. Touya is not The Hero in the chapters focused on the GC plot, or The Dark Brain Army (Well, he does step forward as A hero in one of those.), or Duvan Org's subplot. Calvina likewise gets her focus chapters in a portion of the game that takes place over a third of the chapter count, in which Touya has stepped back to let others take the spotlight. To claim otherwise is blatant misinformation.

Is he developing during that time? Oh hell yes. But it's a lie to say he's The Hero at that point.

Calvina is important. She's introduced as part of the prologue as well, and adds a human element to the Judgement plot different than Touya's. The space route does a little more to show her personality, but her reintroduction in the earth route stands on it's own, as I clearly stated above.

After Touya first activates Busker Mode, and the Fury are in denial of the relevance of this, the plots attention turns to Calvina and she becomes the focus hero of the J plot while Touya takes a background role. This is clearly shown, and it lasts until the death of So-Des, if not slightly further. I've already explained the details of this, and do not need to repeat them.

Touya regains his active role when he is captured and starts interacting with Shana-Mia, one of the few Fury characters with no connection to Calvina. It is only then, that Touya is able to finally move forward as a hero, while synthesizing what he's learned from watching the others, and take over as a main hero again (though this is also about the time that Akimi gets his time in the limelight).

Edited by Mysterion

I think you’re missing what we ar saying. Touya is the hero, because the main arc belongs to him. The game opens with his dad and ends with him. Calvina is in the prologue but she’s not the main factor. She has her own arc but it’s not the main arc. Other character also have there own arc but it’s not the main arc either. Touya and Granteed are the main arc. There’s a reason Granteed is front and center on the cover.

To use a example, you wouldn’t say Han Solo is the hero of Star Wars. He’s a main character with his own arc, but the hero is Luke. Calvina is a important character, but her arc is not the main one: it’s Touya. Calvina is a supporting protagonist.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

For the bulk of the Judgment part, Touya STILL is The Hero of that part. Maybe not the hero of the WHOLE story, but he still is the hero of the overall Judgment arc (That's the kind of thing with SRW OG: Lots of plot arcs going on together. Didn't we have the Shadow Mirror and Einst running together; Duminuss and Shura running together; Ruina and AI-1 running together before? Next you'll be saying Kyosuke is The Hero for the Advance arc as well because he had a lot of rivalry with Axel). While you have a good chunk of screentime and importance with Calvina, that doesn't instantly make her the hero of the Judgment arc.

You can see with how close she is with the Fury. Sure, Al-Van and Jua-Mu were pretty close to her, but that's the closest she can get with the Fury, not too close with the Big Bad: Gu-Landon. Gu-Landon, on the other hand, had more dealings with Touya since he's the person chosen by Granteed as well as having links with the Fury princess he tried to manipulate, Shana-Mia. Calvina had her arc, but in the overall plot, like the Fury's plans and what they would like to do, Touya had more links and importance.

Before we continue, both of you Mysterion and Blazing Trolls... I want both you to describe what it means to be the trope The Hero, in your own words instead of looking at the trope page. And then perhaps you may want to compare with the trope The Protagonist.

Edited by ChrisX

To put it bluntly, the hero tends to have the plot revolve around them. They tend to leave the biggest impact in the fight. You know one with the big role or sometimes the chosen one. The protagonist is the perspective character. While supporting protagonist is a perspective character, who is in the middle of a plot. However that they are not the main factor of.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

The Hero is the protagonist of their story, who stays on the front lines and actively pushes the plot forward on the heroic side to reach their goal.

The protagonist is the character who the viewpoint is focused on. They can be the source of the viewpoint but don't have to be..

The Supporting Protagonist is is protagonist who supports someone else - this someone else takes a more active role in pushing the plot forward, and fits the definition of The Hero more closely.

Edited by Mysterion

The hero isn’t always the protagonist. They do tend to be the main key in the overall plot though.

Edited by BlazingTrolls

Good. Now based on that descriptions, describe where Touya falls into and where Calvina falls into.

Touya is hero: do to being the center of the main arc.

Calvina is supporting protagonist: she is a important character with her own story, but she isn’t the main pushing force like Touya. Similar to the twins though she has her own arc within the main arc.

So I take it we can consider this conversation over?

Ok I will take edit out of disscusion.

I disagree. This is a Judgement page, not a Moon Dwellers page.

It's for organization purpose, brief note on how player can pick mecha in J should be enough. Alpha character sheet doesn't put trope about Chokijin under anyone but Kusuha and Bullet after all.

Also Fury's section need split.

Edited by Kuruni