I think that the character bashing alone is enough to get this entry removed but, for the record, I agree with all your points.
Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...
I mean, the trope itself is valid — it's clear by the end of the film that Hux is the one who actually commands respect and can get shit done, whereas Kylo is keeping his position mostly through fear and brute force.
I agree with the entry above and believe that Dragon in Chief is better suited than just The Dragon for Hux. I do agree that it was too wordy and there was a good bit of character bashing in the original Dragon In Chief entry for Hux. (I apologize if my formatting is not correct, this is my first time on a discussion board on TV Tropes.)
I contest the Dragon In Chief entry for a couple reasons, the big one being that Hux is not as respected in the actual film as he seems. Snoke and Ren regularly toss him about and belittle him in front of his forces and none of the troops seem to care. Ren at the end chokes him out in their main control room and the troops are clearly more afraid of Ren and follow his orders over Hux's. Likewise it's obvious who everyone considers Supreme Leader.
I agree Dragon-in-Chief doesn't fit. That's specifically about scenarios where The Dragon is more dangerous than the Big Bad, something that is obviously not the case with Kylo and Hux.
I think something like Red Oni, Blue Oni (which is already listed) describes their dynamic better.
Even Palpatine needed an Army, as did Snoke and so does Kylo
Because even the most powerful warriors cannot fight wars and maintain kingdoms on their own, to say nothing of being overwhelmed by sheer numbers, as graphically demonstrated in Order 66. And had there been just half a dozen more Praetorian Guards, Kylo Ren would have been shredded into confetti instead.
The final shot of Hux looking at Kylo Ren in contempt and disgust as he knelt in abject failure in "The Last Jedi" shows a man who is going to spend every waking moment plotting to get that second chance like the one he almost had in Snoke's Throne Room to put a blaster bolt into the "Supreme Leader's" head.
His troops may also fear Kylo Ren, yes, but their respect and loyalty still firmly belongs to Hux, not to the inexperienced young hot-head who spectacularly humiliated himself by costing the first order their ultimate victory with short temper and stubborn tantrums.
The ONLY thing stopping the coronation of "Supreme Leader Hux" is Kylo Ren's CONSTANT vigilance for a vibroblade in the back; Hux is the true figurehead of respect that now Runs the First Order, and he knows it.
Snoke's Contrasting Sequel Antagonist entry:
- Contrasting Sequel Antagonist: Much like Kylo Ren, he shares superficial similarities with his predecessor, Emperor Palpatine. However Palpatine was much more Faux Affably Evil than Snoke, was a blatant sadist and responded to failures by killing his underlings or allies. Snoke, on the other hand, lacks the late Emperor's arrogance and more overtly evil qualities, and instead of mocking and belittling his enemies, Snoke is graciously polite and even shows genuine admiration and respect towards courageous and noble foes; resulting in a villain who appears to be Affably Evil. In fact, he has more in common with Yoda than Palpatine by dispensing wisdom, showing what seems to be a genuine concern for his apprentice and being much more of a teacher to Kylo Ren than Palpatine was to Vader, since Vader had already been trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Furthermore, Palpatine was a master planner and really only died at the very end because he slightly miscalculated the effect killing Luke directly would have on Anakin (or was certain that either Luke would turn or Anakin would kill Luke, and thus was a bit too unprepared for Option C) and was a sneeze away from victory; Snoke, meanwhile, has to rely on overwhelming force and the incompetence of his opponents to get anywhere, and once he has to make a real calculation and interpretation of what he feels from the Force, i.e. how well Kylo will take to being pressured into killing Rey, he bungles it badly and gets turned into a Disc-One Final Boss for his trouble.
Specifically the first part about him being more respectful than Palpatine. I did not get this impression from him at all. He mocks Kylo for losing to Rey, he mocks Rey for believing she could turn Kylo, and he mocks Luke (to Rey) for seemingly giving up after Ben's fall. I assume this is Fanon based on his appearance in TFA where he is less over the top evil than in TLJ (although IMO he still never does anything that isn't simple Pragmatic Villainy). I will say though that I'm not familiar with much of the expanded universe so I don't know if maybe he's done stuff in it that's contributed to that image of him.
I do think the latter part of him being a Disc One Final Boss to Palpatine's actual Big Bad status has merit (I assume it's more recently added) so I don't want to pull the entire entry. But I think it does need some cleanup, with more focus put on his TLJ characterization.
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Even in real life warfare it is *perfectly* normal to be able to admire your enemy's courage while still hating them at the same time; and Rey's refusal to back down not once but twice against Snoke's seemingly godlike powers most definitely earned his genuine respect, enough for him to acknowledge her as a threat that needs to be put down rather than a mere backwater village girl. Unlike Palpatine, he is at least gracious enough to show said respect towards Rey rather than continue belittling her in her (seeming) hour of death.
Edited by AbsoluteSword
"More respectful than Palpatine" is a damn low bar to clear, mind you. Literally nothing Palpatine did (disregarding him being undercover) is anything but disrespectful.
That said, I really don't think Snoke counts as a Contrasting Sequel Antagonist. They're not literally the same person, but honestly the differences there seem relatively minor to the point that every sequel that doesn't have a recurring antagonist would qualify.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Dragons
The dragon has such a broad definition that there's no reason for it to be tagged out until we see all three movies.
Quoting from the page itself "much of the time, but not necessarily; he, she or it embodies a narrative trope: the penultimate challenge that the hero must face before confronting the Big Bad." The reason its tagged out is because we don't know who the penultimate challenge, but this is not necessary for the trope.
Other parts of the definition "Some Dragons are ferocious fighters who leave the heavy thinking to the boss. Others are smart, detail-oriented administrators who oversee the day-to-day running of the evil organization." When this is split we also have a trope for that called Co-Dragons, which is the dynamic between Kylo Ren and Hux.
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You've got it backwards. From the page itself: "...much of the time, but not necessarily, the Big Bad's top enforcer." The NECESSARY part of the trope is that it's the penultimate challenge; the OPTIONAL, ADDITIONAL part of the trope is that it's the Big Bad's top enforcer. This goes all the way back to Joseph Campbell, and as Star Wars is a series directly based on Campbellian archetypes, it's more important than usual to stick to the strict definition.
The placement of the semi-colon (and the ease of mistaking it for a comma or colon, which would change the meaning of the sentence) in the sentence we're both quoting makes this an easy mistake to make; I've re-worded it as two separate sentences for clarity.
Edited by HighCrate
Okay I understand how I may have made that mistake.
However, I would like to add that expanding off of Joseph Campbell to common TV Tropes usage (as was longstanding in the Laconic), can also be used to mean The Big Bad's Number Two. Typically the guy who does most of the work while the real mastermind is off on his throne based on all the other facets as described on the trope page at length. Which is exactly what Hux and Ren do, just like what Vader did for Palpatine.
Someone literally deleted 90 percent of the page, how do you restore it?
There has recently been some edits to the Kylo Ren entry regarding him being brainwashed by Snoke, all based on, as I understand it, one vague reference in the novel that Snoke had been watching Ben since he was born.
Comments about him being brainwashed as a way of explaining his behavior, attitude, and the things he does seems more like something that would belong in the Fridge section, or maybe even WMG, since there is no official confirmation or Wordof God on this, and the reference in the book is vague at best as to Snoke's influence pre-fall to the Dark Side.
I may take is to Ask The Tropers for a wider opinion as well, any thoughts on the matter before I do?
Edited by doorofnight Hide / Show Replies
I've heard that in the upcoming Bloodlines, Ben was still training with Luke at the age of 23. And no mentioning of Snoke. If they are true, then Kylo Ren's entry should be de-Draco in Leather Pants then.
Bit late to the party, but Luke outright states in TFA that Snoke had "already" begun turning Ben by the time Luke began training him, and judging from how he describes the moment Ben truly fell it wasn't something the boy was fully aware of.
I restored the FO Stormtrooper Corps page. While there may not be editing issues with this page yet, it is a massive entry with a lot of characters. With the upcoming movie and other products, like the Phasma comic, editing this page will be easier with the split and will avoid editing conflicts.
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That's more than fair. Is it possible to split the page in a way that major First Order characters (like Kylo, Hux, and Phasma) are on the same page while more minor characters are on another?
I can't think of a way at the moment. Kylo's entry by himself is longer than some pages. If more Knights of Ren are introduced, I hoped to split them off onto their own page. I get the appeal of wanting them all on the same page, but in some ways it would be easier to split them up. As the three most important characters in the FO, plus Snoke, they will be the entries edited the most when TLJ comes out, so separating them would prevent editing conflicts and let people add tropes quicker.
We could separate it by the First Order leaders, which would include Phasma, the Huxs, Snoke, and Ren, and the rest of the Order.
Okay, so, this entry on Hux:
Lots of problems to talk about here. First off - extremely long. Entries are generally supposed to be short and to the point: see Word Cruft for some tips. Yes, a sense of humor is recommended, but this just goes on and on about "Kylo is a stupid idiot" in a big old run-on sentence. Specifics:
Second big problem - the character-bashing, which is frowned upon. Again, sure, a sense of humor done right is appreciated. But you're also expected to rein it in and be neutral when it comes to opinions. Example: I absolutely despise Holdo's portrayal in the film and feel like the entire Canto Bight/DJ arc is a big ol' Idiot Plot kicked off by her actions. I've also made several edits to her character entry, and I did my damnedest to make my additions sound neutral in case anyone who really likes her reads them.
Third - formatting. The random bolding of words is distracting, almost as much as the haphazard spoiler tags that split up the text and make it look like a censored CIA document. Bolding should generally be reserved for special situations; use italics for emphasis on words in a sentence, and for heaven's sake don't over-use them. Notice I've only done so twice in this unnecessarily-long write up.
Edited by Dirtyblue929 Hide / Show Replies