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Jun 22nd 2019 at 12:59:55 AM •••

If this page ever gets too long, I recommend moving the glitchmons to a separate page for https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/PokemonGlitches.

Jul 18th 2017 at 6:23:45 AM •••

This is being edit-warred over in Gyarados' entry:

  • The Artifact: Gyarados still learns Hyper Beam by level-up, even though the Physical/Special split has made the move nearly useless to it; especially ironic in hindsight are the Japanese Pokédex entries that boasted of the incinerating power of this move.

Personally I think it's an example. It's not that it learns it, it's not that it learns it by leveling up, but it's that it learns it by leveling up as its final (which is presumably its best) move. Clearly the only reason it keeps that is tradition and the fact that Hyper Beam is mentioned in its Pokedex entries.

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Jul 18th 2017 at 6:52:50 AM •••

Following the Bulbapedia, all the three last damaging moves that Gyarados learns by level-up has more than 100 power- and all they are Special based moves.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 18th 2017 at 10:34:55 AM •••

I think that learning Hyper Beam by level-up is important as well. Out of every Pokémon that could learn Hyper Beam that way before the physical-special split, Gyarados's got hit the hardest on account of having the biggest difference between its attacking stats. It still has it, and it still learns it as its last level-up move as it has in every generation, but after how much focus its Hyper Beam got in past generations, removing it now would take away a key part of its characterization.

Jul 18th 2017 at 10:43:52 AM •••

^^ Er, yes. I'm not entirely sure of your point, though. Those are amongst the most powerful moves of Gyarados' types... in fact, the most powerful moves without a major drawback. And thanks to STAB, they're both stronger than Hyper Beam... but Hyper Beam is still the last move. Like it's somehow more special than these now-more-practical moves.

Largely because it's the one move specifically referenced in its earlier Pokedex entries.

Honestly, I'd also posit that in G2 and G3, learning "Bite" upon evolution might qualify as well. The point of the move in G1 was showing off Magikarp's awesome new Attack stat with a fancy new move that utilizes it. But the fact the move was suddenly Special made it worthless. But that still makes sense in-story enough since Magikarp still gets a gaping maw upon evolving anyway.

Edited by Larkmarn
Jul 18th 2017 at 10:44:23 AM •••

^^Quoting the my own edit reason when i removed the example of the own The Artifact page, "pokemon being able to learn naturally moves that use their "low" offensive stat is/was not unusual to the games." ^All the pokemons with big jaws in Gold/Silver are able to learn this, independently of their actual Special Attack, if i am remembering well.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 18th 2017 at 12:52:17 PM •••

You referenced Alakazam when you initially removed the Artifact example, but learning a move by TM, HM, or tutor has far less significance than learning it by level-up. Just about anything in the series can learn Hyper Beam and Giga Impact by TM once it's reached its final evolution. The list of Pokémon who learn those moves by level-up is much shorter.

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Jul 18th 2017 at 4:09:39 PM •••

First- Hyper Beam is not less useless because this is learned by TM or Move Tutor. Second- as Bite history points, moves being learned by Level-up that do use the their weak stat are not this unusual. (To a related example, Dragon Breath was added to the level up moves of Onix and Steelix in Generation III)

Edited by MagBas
Jul 19th 2017 at 6:05:09 AM •••

That first sentence entirely irrelevant.

You're really not getting our points (or at least not acknowledging them). It's not just "moves using the weak stat" it's "significant moves that originally used the strong stat and later switched to the weaker stat but were too entrenched in the lore of the character to be bothered with changing."

The issue is that these moves no longer serve the purpose they once did. Bite was the move that was put there to demonstrate Gyarados' Magikarp Power. Hyper Beam was Gyarados' ultimate attack. Now neither of them fulfill that purpose, but remain in those same positions because of tradition.

Jul 19th 2017 at 8:31:46 AM •••

The answer above was the answer to the points of The Orb Of Confusion, not to the their points. About Bite, at least, this only was the first item of the level-up moveset list of Gyarados. This only showcases Magikarp Power in the sense than Bite is a better move than Tackle- but virtually all the moves outside Splash are better than Tackle. About Hyper Beam, i am not sure... following the Bulbapedia, the difference between the Attack of Torterra and their Special attack is less big than the difference between the Attack of Gyarados and their Special Attack and the last attack of Torterra uses Stab, in total contrast to Gyarados - i am not sure if use their last attack(that is other Special based attack) as evidence is fair.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 19th 2017 at 8:49:18 AM •••

I'd argue that Bite stopped being an Artifact after the physical-special split.

Gyarados is strongly associated with Hyper Beam, or at least it used to be — it's the move's most frequent user in the anime and manga, and it still holds the title even though almost all of those uses were just in the first two generations. In the games, the Gyarados used by significant characters (Gym Leaders, Elite Four and Champions) commonly included Hyper Beam in their movesets during the first three generations — but after the physical-special split, it hasn't been seen on a single one. The Gyarados used by Blue, Cyrus, and Wake run Giga Impact instead, which accomplishes the same thing as Hyper Beam but runs off of Gyarados's better attacking stat.

By the looks of things, Gyarados doesn't have Hyper Beam as its most famous move anymore, and challenging trainers either don't run Hyper Beam or use its physical equivalent instead, but Gyarados still learns it as its final level-up move. Snorlax had its Hyper Beam replaced with Giga Impact and Aerodactyl now learns both moves by level-up, so why has Gyarados kept its own?

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Jul 19th 2017 at 10:26:03 AM •••

^ That's why I said in G2 and G3 Bite is The Artifact.

^^ I still have no idea what you're talking about. Never mind the fact that what you're saying is irrelevant, it's also blatantly untrue.

As for the Bite thing... that's the point. It's supposed to be better than Tackle. But in G2 and G3, it... isn't, and would likely do less damage than Tackle. That's exactly my point.

Jul 19th 2017 at 12:39:11 PM •••

About Bite, Magikarp has no big jaws, and pokemon with big jaws generally are able to learn Bite- generally by level-up, even if they are not Special Attack powerhouses. I am saying that this is merely the first of the level-up list- Bite is not this remarkable- even in generation I (And, actually, i guess that Magikarp is the only Pokemon that learns Tackle by level-up and not as starting move.) About Hyper Beam- First- Giga Impact not involves Gyarados expeling something by the mouth- this is a clear stand in to a dragon breath- In other words, this is The Artifact, but by a completely different reason. Dragon Breath already exists as a move. Second- My comparison is because Torterra Special. Attack is 75 and their Attack is 109. The last attack of their level-up list is Leaf Storm, that uses Special Attack.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 19th 2017 at 1:25:23 PM •••

I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about.

Jul 19th 2017 at 2:40:02 PM •••

In the case of Bite, you are saying that the role of the attack was to showcase Magikarp Power, i am saying that they learn this because they have big jaws and learn this in evolution because this is the first in their level-up list- to an example, Snubull, a Pokemon with Attack two times bigger than the Special Attack introduced in generation II, learned Bite after Tackle but in a lower level than Gyarados- as the second damaging move of their level-up list. About - as was mentioned originally- learn Hyper Beam by Level-Up , you mentioned their low Special Attack, but Onix/Steelix gained Dragon Breath in Generation III and they have Special Attack comparable to Gyarados, and many other Pokemon learn moves using their weak attack value . I am not sure about the last attack not being supposedly the ultimate attack, however. Some Pokemon learn non-damaging moves as their last attack, but i am not some if they are not supposed to be their ultimate attacks.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 19th 2017 at 3:26:02 PM •••

I'm not as confident in Bite as an example as I am with Hyper Beam, so I'm not going to comment on that.

You're still missing the point. Hyper Beam used to be Gyarados's most fearsome move back in Gen I and was so heavily associated with it that the bosses who used Gyarados always ran it. In the most popular Pokémon anime and manga, Gyarados has used the move more than any other species. It is, or was, a huge part of Gyarados's characterization as a species.

But when the physical-special split happened, Gyarados's level-up moveset kept Hyper Beam despite it being significantly less damaging than its physical equivalent. New boss characters who use Gyarados never run Hyper Beam, but there are a few like Blue in Sun and Moon who run Giga Impact instead. Gyarados used Hyper Beam eight times in the anime and three times in the manga before the physical-special split. Since then, it's only been used twice in the anime and not even once in the manga. The franchise has largely given up on actually depicting Gyarados using Hyper Beam.

What makes this qualify as The Artifact is that Gyarados still learns it by level-up anyway, and as its final move (although the significance of the latter is debatable). I referenced Snorlax and Aerodactyl because they got Giga Impact added to their level-up moveset immediately after the split, but Gyarados is stuck learning it by TM only. After three generations of painting Hyper Beam as Gyarados's ultimate attack, the series can't remove it without writing out the tradition. This is what makes it different from, say, the Trapinch line, which also got it by level-up in Generation III and kept it despite the power drop — Gyarados used Hyper Beam as a key part of its character across multiple media, while the others aren't as strongly associated with it.

Here's the description from The Artifact, which is basically what we're arguing applies to this example:

Sometimes, a character or gimmick seems to no longer fit with the mood or design of a story according to a writer, but is kept because there seems to be no way for the writer to get rid of them without causing some serious disruption (unrelated to Retcons).

Sometimes it's due to being tied in closely to the mythos or that The Artifact has just been around so long that removing it seems like overstepping bounds. And if it's due to pure fan popularity, the producers probably aren't going to push it out in any case for no reason.

The general way to solve this problem is to avoid it, or rather, them. You can bet anyone considered The Artifact is going to be politely skipped over by the writer whenever they can, although this can get shaky if the audience is seasoned to expect them around.

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Jul 19th 2017 at 3:56:51 PM •••

As i mentioned, the reason that they learn Hyper Beam by level-up is because they are a draconic creature and Hyper Beam is a attack expelled by the mouth that serves as stand-in to a dragon breath in Gyarados. The level-up list to the draconic-looking Aerodactyl not lost this, in total contrast to the non draconic-looking Snorlax. Worst than this, the slightly draconic- looking Onix and Steelix gained Dragon Breath(that always was Special Attack based) in their level-up list in generation III despite their Special Attack being comparable to Gyarados. And, finally, Pokemon being able to learn by level-up moves that use their "low" offensive stat is/was not unusual to the games.

Edited by MagBas
Jul 21st 2017 at 3:47:50 PM •••

What? No. Gyarados being a dragon has nothing to do with this.

Gyarados is the single most frequent user of Hyper Beam in both the anime and manga. In the first three generations, most NPCs who used Gyarados were using it with Hyper Beam. Hyper Beam is associated with Gyarados more than it is with any other Pokémon, and Gyarados was associated with Hyper Beam more than it was with any other move. As a result, Hyper Beam was a key part of Gyarados's early characterization, and this was all tied to how back then, Gyarados's Hyper Beam ran off of its "high" offensive stat. At the time, this was not Gyarados getting a move that used its "low" offensive stat.

That changed when Generation IV rolled around and redesigned the definition of physical and special moves, and in the process, redefined Gyarados's Hyper Beam. Gyarados's fearsome power was no longer behind Hyper Beam, so as a result, it lost its association with the move. It's only used it twice in the anime since then – once in the D/P anime and once in the B/W anime – and NPCs no longer run Hyper Beam on Gyarados. The series has no problem writing Hyper Beam out of Gyarados in contexts where it's not absolutely required, but cutting it out of Gyarados's moveset would cause serious disruption with the characterization it had.

Don't look at this as if it's just a powerful move that Gyarados happens to learn and can't use so well anymore. This was a massive part of Gyarados's image and power back in the day. Flavor text in the manga, Mystery Dungeon, and in FireRed was vouching for its destructive power and making sure that you knew Gyarados was associated with Hyper Beam.

None of the examples you've given are relevant to this point, and I'm starting to think you're ignoring it because you don't know how to respond.

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Jul 21st 2017 at 10:49:28 PM •••

The problem is that NP Cs rarely use special moves in general with Gyarados, not only Hyper Beam. Despite this, four moves in their current level-up learn set are special(half of the damaging moves, if i not realized an error when counting), including the three last damaging moves, and one of the moves in question was added in Generation VII, despite the Generation IV attack/special redesign. Okay, the move in question is a Stab move- but the npcs are not exactly storming to learn this, exactly as they are not exactly storming to learn the other three level-up special attack based moves. If i understood, their argument is that you guess that the reason that they not removed the move in question is because this is iconic. If i not missed nothing in the level-up lists in the Bulbapedia, Gyarados never lost anyone of their level-up moves -only gained new additions to their level-up list .

Edited by MagBas
Aug 6th 2017 at 4:13:08 PM •••

"you guess that the reason that they not removed the move in question is because this is iconic."

That's exactly it. Hyper Beam was practically Gyarados's signature move in the first three generations. Adding Giga Impact to it or replacing it with Giga Impact would walk back a key part of its character.

Hyper Beam wasn't its signature move as per Bulbapedia – it's not exclusive to Gyarados and it never has been – but they're associated with each other more than they are with any other Pokémon or move.

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Aug 6th 2017 at 9:30:38 PM •••

And i am saying that the additions and removals generally has no relation to to the Physical/Special split. And now you not answered none of the my arguments.

By the way, here are other removals in Generation I pokemons(I am including all the removals of the level-up learnset of the pokemon in question i noted), following Bulbapedia:

All the moves that Bulbasaur lost between generations actually were transferred to their evolutions.

Charmander lost Rage and Metal Claw in the RB remakes and in Generation IV, respectively.

Pikachu lost Swift in Y.

The Nidorans lost Tackle in Generation III.

Clefairy lost Light Screen in Generation VI.

Zubat lost Acrobatics in Generation VII

Oddish lost Solarbeam, but Vileplume eventually gained this.

Paras lost Leech Life in generation VII.

Digglet lost Fury Swipes in Generation IV.

Meowth lost Swagger in Generation IV.

Poliwag lost Amnesia in Generation II.

Geodude lost Harden in Generation III.

Ponyta temporarily lost Tackle in FRLG and lost Quick Attack in Generation IV.

Magnemite lost Swift in Generation IV.

Doduo's Tri Attack was moved to Dodrio.

Squirtle, Butterfree, Beedrill, Pidgey, Rattata, Spearow, Ekans, Sandshrew, Vulpix, Jigglypuff, Venonat, Psyduck, Mankey,Growlithe, Kadabra, Machop, Bellsprout, Tentacool, Slowpoke, Farfetch'd, Seel and Shellder not lost nothing.

Edited by MagBas
Aug 7th 2017 at 3:50:40 AM •••

None of those moves were as key to their users' character as Hyper Beam was to Gyarados, which is why it's The Artifact and those aren't. What else you got?

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Aug 7th 2017 at 8:04:59 AM •••

You not understood. The point is that pokemon species rarely lose moves in their Level-Up lists. Of the first 38 evolution lines of the National Dex, only 16 lost moves, all the species that lost moves lost only one or two moves in seven generations, with at least two learning the moves in question in the level-up list of the evolution and two being male/female versions of the other. By the way, you mentioned unique moves, but in at least part of the unique moves the "uniqueness" can be a complete accident, in total contrast to moves mentioned in the pokedex, Evo moves , moves altered by a Z-Move and moves that cause evolution(Super Smash Bros actually lists Flamethrower as Charizard's signature move, with signature move clearly meaning "attack strongly associated with character")

Edited by MagBas
Aug 7th 2017 at 2:20:43 PM •••

Of course it can be an accident, but in this case, it's not. Gyarados using Hyper Beam more often than any other species is intentional. It plays a key role in the species' character beyond just its offensive power, given how closely they're associated.

The moves that the first 38 evolutionary families lost simply don't play that key role.

You've neglected to address the move's frequent appearance in the manga and anime, and you should, because this isn't just a matter of use in battle.

Edited by TheOrbOfConfusion
Aug 7th 2017 at 4:03:04 PM •••

You not understood. I said that the fact that a move is unique to a specific evolution line can plausibly be a complete accident(Or you guess that Camouflage being unique to Starmie was intentional?), but Pokedex mentions(as is the case to Hyper Beam to Gyarados), moves modified by exclusive Z-moves(Last Resort, in Eevee's case)and the exclusive Z-moves themselves(Catastropika to Pikachu), Evo moves(As Bite to Gyarados) and moves that cause evolution(Rollout to Lickitung) the fact that they included the moves in question in the roles in question is undeniably intentional.

About the anime and manga, you guess that the use/lack of use of Hyper Beam in the anime/manga was caused by Executive Meddling?

Edited by MagBas
Feb 15th 2017 at 11:31:04 AM •••

About the Mew and gender thing... someone knows if Mew was referred as male or female in the original japanese version? I know that the japanese language is too more gender-ambiguous than the english language, the gender neutral pronouns in english generally are used only to objects or multiple persons and i heard that he or she can be used to someone with ambiguous gender, despite being rare.

Edited by MagBas
Nov 19th 2016 at 7:24:11 AM •••

Well, the topic where this was brought up is 2 years old, so opening a new one rather than bumping the older one:

Tauros and Miltank are treated as a family by the Alola Pokedex. It is a quite unique case, as they were introduced in different gens and so far are unrelated by evolution, but the Pokedex treats them as a family, and not as standalone unevolving Pokemon.

I'd merge their entries, as Game Freak is treating them as true counterparts.

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Oct 12th 2017 at 9:44:56 PM •••

There’s about as much relationship between them as Heracross has to Pinsir. All the Alola Dex does is place the two mons adjacent to each other in numbering. I say unmerge them.

Oct 12th 2017 at 9:59:54 PM •••

Aren't Miltank supposed to be the female version of Tauros, a la Nidoking and Nidoqueen?

Oct 13th 2017 at 4:32:29 AM •••

They’re not just adjacent to each other in numbering. The Alola Pokedex places Pokemon that are related to each other, whether by evolution or as closely related counterparts, on the same page. Just as all the Tapus share a page, Tauros and Miltank also share a page, as you can see here.

Oct 13th 2017 at 6:19:45 AM •••

Yeah, while I thought that really goddamn weird, it's definitely the case as of Gen VI.

Jan 16th 2015 at 11:08:28 AM •••

I feel like we should delete the M and Missingno entries, as they aren't official characters.

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Jan 16th 2015 at 12:26:26 PM •••

True, but they are famous glitch characters that have received mainstream attention. I think their notability and importance qualifies them for coverage.

Jan 16th 2015 at 1:05:02 PM •••

Not to mention, they're not official characters, but they do exist in the game. Calling them just Trivia or Memetic Mutation isn't appropriate because they do exist in the games, you know?

Jan 16th 2015 at 1:13:30 PM •••

^^Meme-created characters don't get their own entries because they're technically Fanon and not official. They're in a weird limbo state but still indisputably exist; I honestly don't know what to do. I personally am leaning towards moving them to Red and Blue's YMMV page under Good Bad Bugs.

Edited by Karxrida
Jan 16th 2015 at 1:48:03 PM •••

Yeah, There Is No Such Thing As Notability swings both ways. Even if a character is very popular or memetic, if he doesn't exist in an actual work they don't go on the page. But they're not really meme-created though, they do exist in the game. If they were purely memetic (like "Steve the Vehicon" from Transformers Prime, who is just a Fan Nickname and personality given to any random Vehicon on screen), then they wouldn't go on a main page obviously.

But author intent or not, they are in the game, you know?

Edited by Larkmarn
Jan 16th 2015 at 2:25:36 PM •••

So are event Pokemon, and the stance here is to pretend they don't exist until officially revealed (which is an opinion I couldn't disagree more with).

And a glitch does not a character make. The official statement with the glitch Pokemon are that they are NOT part of the game.

I'd keep them, but for consistence, we'd have to get rid of plenty of restricting rules on these pages (because seriously, I have yet to see another character page where one is as restrictive as what goes and what doesn't go as these).

For me, yes, as long as we also stop pretending stuff in the game not officially released doesn't exist. We are a Wiki that doesn't take itself as seriously as Wikipedia, I fail to understand that policy.

Also, The Missingno. is a trope by itself. Pretending the Trope Namer doesn't exist doesn't work that well.

In fact, what's up with pretending stuff doesn't exist, or isn't relevant?

Edited by Eriorguez
Jan 16th 2015 at 2:44:30 PM •••

The "pretending unreleased event legends don't exist" thing is a mod mandate since they want to err on the side of caution in case GF never releases them or they change something on release.

Jan 16th 2015 at 2:50:34 PM •••

Missingno. is not an Event Pokemon, however. It is real, it exists in the game, it has been reported on by third-parties as well as by Nintendo, and is well known in the fandom. Even if it is not actually a Pokemon, it is an entity worth noting.

Jan 16th 2015 at 3:42:04 PM •••

Dummied Out is a thing, I still disagree with the logic behind the mod mandation. And referencing the game code is not unheard of across the whole site.

I'd argue unreleased event Pokemon are more "real" than Missingno, however.

Jan 16th 2015 at 4:16:19 PM •••

^^The problem is there were not intended to be a part of the game and don't even appear in future games (cause, you know, glitches). It's a major gray area with these glitchmons, especially since none of the other ones have entries (which we should have written up to avoid Selective Enforcement).

^Then you should bring it up with the mods on ATT if you really feel that way.

Edited by Karxrida
Jan 16th 2015 at 7:28:46 PM •••

Sort of related, I cleaned up their examples and hide a couple tropes that I didn't have enough knowledge to make judgment calls on (but still need rewrites).

EDIT: Made a null edit to direct people here to help out with those exmaples. Probably should have put it in the first time, but as usual I only think of these things the moment after I complete an edit.

Edited by Karxrida
Jan 19th 2015 at 2:30:02 AM •••

I personally don't really care whether we keep them or not. If not, maybe we could move them to a Just for Fun page, since they're not official mons.

Anyway, I removed the Joke Character entry because that trope requires intent, and Missingno and 'M were never intended to exist in the first place, making it a Square Peg, Round Trope.

Edited by MyTimingIsOff
Mar 10th 2016 at 8:31:49 AM •••

I think we should move them to a Just for Fun page, like My Timing Is Off suggested. They're not official mons, just glitch Pokémon that were never acknowledged by Nintendo or even intended to exist, let alone returned in future games. They're just meme Pokémons, who don't belong on an official page like that. That'd be like making an entry for Steve the Red Pikmin on the Pikmin character page.

Dec 15th 2014 at 6:57:36 AM •••

I would make a suggestion to merge Tauros and Miltank's entries as part of the same. Even if it may seem a bit farfetched at first glance, they get the same treatment as other Distaff Counterpart examples that do share an entry (appear in the same hordes, are used by lovely couple trainers... Just like the Nidorans and Volbeat/Illumise, and a similar treatment is given to Plusle/Minum or rivals Zangoose/Seviper and Heatmor/Durant; Carbink and Sudowoodo appearing in hordes of seemingly unrelated Pokemon doesn't work well, as the horde without the intruder is also a possible encounter, while the 4-1 counterparted hordes are the sole possible variation).

So yeah, the sole difference between Tauros/Miltank and the remaining pairs is that Miltank didn't debut in Tauros' generation, but ever since her introduction, she was used as a counterpart for Tauros in the same vein as those.

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Dec 15th 2014 at 7:05:14 AM •••

The thing about Volbeat/Illumise is that their eggs can hatch into either of those Pokémon; the same goes for the Nidorans. By contrast, Miltank eggs will never hatch into Tauros and vice-versa. Additionally, the reason Zangoose is grouped with Seviper and Heatmor with Durant is their Pokédex entries make a big point on mentioning their rivalry with each other, whereas Miltank and Tauros are never mentioned together in their entries.

Dec 15th 2014 at 7:12:37 AM •••

Fair point indeed.

A shame egg mechanics tend to be left untouched, and thus we are left with infertile Nidorina/Nidoqueen, and egg move-less Tauros, mostly due to gen II's limited mechanics, because the treatment is there.

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