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I\'ve made an Image Pickin\' turned Short Term Project in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1555263495079982500&page=1 with a proposal to replace 3DS models with official Ken Sugimori art. My arguments were provided in the first post. There appears to be consensus that such a change would be good (six upvotes and one semi-negative response from posts 2-8), which is why I\'ve started a sandbox page at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/PokemonCharacterPageImages with all official art I\'ve currently uploaded. I\'m currently done with Gen I, II, V and VIII. If anyone is interested in more details, see that thread and watch that sandbox. I just wanted to tell everyone that major edits are coming to many Pokemon species subpages.
Alright, all pics were uploaded, now they will go through a quality correction on Friday, and then ALL 3DS models will be replaced by art on Saturday. Just so you know when the massive change is coming.
Allow me to reiterate the issue: I\'m convinced that glitch Pokémon should be deleted from the page, or at least moved to a Just For Fun page.
They objectively don\'t belong there; the pages are meant to mention info on actual, official characters. The glitch Pokémon are just that; glitches. These are \"fake\" Pokémon that were never intended to exist in the first place, never reappeared in any other game, were never referenced by Nintendo or Game Freak in any way afterwards, and worst of all, don\'t even appear on all versions of the game due to specific technical details, so it\'s extra pointless to mention them, considering that some players CAN\'T ever even meet them.
The only tropes and \"popularity\" they have, they got from the fans, and putting them alongside actual, official Pokémon is pointless and misleading. It\'d be like giving Steve the Red Pikmin or Ben Drowned their own character entries on the Pikmin and Majora\'s Mask pages. Neither of them have or deserve an entry on their respective pages, so it shouldn\'t be any different for glitch Pokémon.
Should we add character sheets for the scrapped Generation II Pokemon, or nah?
Nah, because they are not actually in-game.
Is it appropriate to have Pokemon that are One Gender Races to be referred to as "Him" or "Her" in their entries?
If you're referring to an individual, then I don't see why not. That said, I feel like most examples would be plural anyway.
This got mentioned a while back in a previous topic, but is worth revisiting.
I think the Professors and Assistants should have their own section at this point, since there's at least a new one every generation, plus others in spin-offs and the anime. I mention this because I was specifically looking for them and they're just sort of lumped in the "other" section, as if they're no more important than other random named NPCs. I think 10 Profs and 3 Assistants is going to be a rather lengthy page on its own.
While on the subject, I understand the exclusion of Professor Cosmo (not being a Pokemon Professor), but why is Burnet treated as just a side character? Especially after her reveal in Sun and Moon, I think she should be moved in with the rest of them.
The biggest issue is that new characters are made as new games are made. I feel this page is not set up right for continuous expansion. The character page should be organized by the generation they were introduced in, like the Pokemon are. Not split up into trainers, rivals, gym leaders, etc.
There should be a I Read That As... page, with all those mon names are some bound to be misread.
Where should Mangeana (the newly announced Pokémon) have its entry penned?
Think there's enough content to justify a trope page for the Trainer Classes? They do tend to be very similar and fit a specific mold in terms of appearance, battle style, and personalities, so there are applicable tropes for them.
Gave a sandbox a go, dunno if others see potential in it.
In regards to the anime pages, should we add a section for movie characters?
Can we please stop adding Lightning Bruiser, Mighty Glacier, Fragile Speedster, etc. to the Mons if the tropes only apply due to Status Buffs? Otherwise literally any Pokemon can apply and it becomes akin to People Sit On Chairs. Or something. You guys probably know what I mean.
It may be a better idea to potholing these tropes under their Status Buffs examples, if the buff gives them the abilities laid out in these tropes - similar storytelling purpose.
That sounds good to me. We also need to cull (am I using that right?) out examples of those tropes when they shouldn't be mixed, like Mighty Glacier and Glass Cannon (the entry to Tropius comes to mind). I can't work on it now, but I'll go through all the pages when I get a chance.
Yeah, these tropes are more like archetypes than one-off buffs. However, noting their relationship to the buffs seems fine.
Signature Move has been misused on these pages. I've replaced them with Weapon of Choice since that is the idea behind the original entries.
Would it be okay to add the base stats of each Pokemon? It would allow for better comparisons when listing the Lightning Bruiser/Mighty Glacier/Stone Wall tropes. We could list them as HP/Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense/Speed (i.e. for Garchomp its stats are 108/130/95/80/85/102).
I wouldn't like it at all since TV Tropes isn't supposed to be a game guide.
Now that we have a page on the types, does anybody think a page on the recurring groups of Pokemon should be added (Starters, Fossils, Pseudo-Legendaries, Title Legendaries, Event Legendaries, and Mew Clones)?
what would people think of putting the Pokemon char pages into folders for each family? Even split these pages get pretty long.
That sounds reasonable since each page is so large, but we should see what other people think first.
Added them to the first page so people can see how it'll work on the rest and can give an informed opinion now.
Now that we have a character page for the types, I think we need to do another clean up removing tropes based off Typing and movepool on the main page, unless there are outliers (ie. the Latis avert Playing with Fire despite being Dragons, Rotom-W is the only Water-Type to avert An Ice Person). Also, too many Pokemon are listed as Lightning Bruisers because of Status Buffs, which also need to be fixed (otherwise everything with a boosting move is a Lightning Bruiser, when their base stats say otherwise).
I know that the pages are being cleaned up right now, but why are tropes like Jack-of-All-Stats, Lightning Bruiser, Stone Wall, etc. being removed? These aren't Fandom Reaction Tropes or YMMV, so they should stay in.
Without specific pages, I guess because they are written like they are audience reactions.
Could we maybe make a page specifically for the individual types and specific recurring groups of Pokémon (Legendaries, Pseudo-Legendaries, Starters)?
About the former, exist many dual types and some type combinations are too rare and other type combinations are too common.
I don't mean for every type combo in existence, I mean each type individually. For example, you could have a entry on Dark types in general, one on Water types, etc.
Considering the quantity of dual types, this will create lots of duplicate examples in both.
I don't think they were talking about listing the Pokemon of each type, rather listing the character tropes of each type on its own, a la the Magic: The Gathering Colors page.
Exactly. I'm not very good at explaining things, thanks.
So can we get on this, please?
I'm on it.
Okay I started up the page, but it's going to need some Wiki Magic-with 18 types, there's a lot of tropes.
I'll get on it as soon as I get home.
Alright, this is something that has to deal with Gen 1 and Gen V. I don't think they should be divided into separate categories by pages. I think they should be divided by folders on a page. would this be a better idea then what we've got?
Both Gen I and Gen V have so many mons each (and it keeps growing when a new generation adds new members to the families), that putting them all on a single page each would make the page too big. If a page gets large enough, folders won't work any longer and the page looks like a mess. Its also impractical to use folders in these pages because that would only cause arguments over how the monsters should be grouped.
In regard to the Dark type certain Pokémon seem to split the line between it's Casting a Shadow and Combat Pragmatist qualities. For the sake of brevity and clarity couldn't we just put them down where they apply?
I'm asking because I see Scrafty listed as Casting a Shadow when hardly any Dark type moves involve using actual darkness and Scrafty heavily leans to the Combat Pragmatist side with it's Fighting type duality.
I don't see a reason why there is a spoiler notice for the Pokémon list of Generation VI. The game isn't released yet, and there seems to be no story detail revealed yet.
Some people may want to play the game blind and not want to know what kind of Pokémon they'll encounter.
I think it may be best to reorganize the (human) character pages here. Currently, there's a lot of separations and redundancies due to the characters being sorted by game even if they appear in more than one game or have ties to characters in other games, especially for the Kanto Gym Leaders and most of the characters in Black 2 and White 2 who return from the first set. I think it may be best to instead sort the character pages by things like Protagonists, Gym Leaders, Elite 4, Champions, Villain Teams, Professors & Other NPC's, ect. This would be much more efficient than the current system.
Characters who "change jobs" between games, such as Koga being promoted from Gym Leader to Elite 4, will be sorted by their most recent prominent role, so Koga would appear on the Elite 4 page, Lance and Wallace would appear on the Champions page, ect. In light of recent (At the time of writing) Black 2 and White 2 spoilers, I will take necessary measures, such as leaving a character on two separate pages or spoiler-marking certain tropes until the spoilers are no longer considered spoilers, ect.
This wouldn't be an unprecedented reorganization; the Ace Attorney series sorts its character pages by categories such as Defense Attorneys, Prosecutors, Victims, ect. rather than by the games they appear in.
If this is agreed to be a viable move, I'd be more than glad to handle the copypaste moving and merges on my own (Though I will need help with things such as properly indexing and creating the pages themselves).
Well, the Elder Scrolls page has a character page for characters that appear in more than one game, so perhaps we could do that with the Pokemon character pages.
Yes, it sounds good.
Creating a new page: input the address of it into the bar, that'll get you to the empty page, then you just click edit and go on. For example go to, say, Characters.Pokemon Gym Leaders or Characters.Pokemon Protagonists and edit.
Indexing: find an index page, edit and just plug it into the list. Just like Pokemon pages already on Characters.Video Games and Characters.Anime.
Don't forget to put the fact of moving into the edit reason and cutlist the old pages when you're all done.
The problem with simply with having a page for characters who appear in more than one game is that it would include nearly everyone, because of the World Tournament. Even discounting that, it would cause random omissions on pages people would expect to see certain characters. If you wanted to add a trope about Jasmine, you might look for her in the G/S/C/HG/SS page, not knowing that she was in D/P/Pt, and not be able to find her.
I like Anom's idea, personally. It's a very intuitive system, and will make navigating the pages easier.
Okay, now I just need to know what categories to sort them into. I mentioned it in the Pokemon in General thread on the forums.
The character pages are now a massive confusing jumble where you can never find anything compared to the various games.
If I want to look up character things on Black and White, I don't want to sort through the first four generations just to find it. Having five or six different pages out for one game isn't very useful.
Just a reference- I intend to go about changing the references to Weaksauce Weakness to For Massive Damage, as the former trope is supposed to be for stupid Achilles Heels. Fitting into the game's elemental rock-paper-scissors dynamic really doesn't count as stupid. As I type this I've done Gen V (where I first noticed this) and now will be working backward from there, unless anybody has serious objections as to why Weaksauce Weakness should be kept as the listed trope instead.
And For Massive Damage even quotes Pokemon at the top of the page, so another reason it fits a bit better (since it's more closely associated with the series). Just another thing to think about.
Well, it looks like a good Samaritan helped out and did first and second gen before I could- I'm heading to London soon and have been busy, so I'm not able to edit pages as much as I'd like to. So thanks to my fellow editors! As a longtime Pokemon fan I hope we can all continue to work together to make the character pages the best they can be.
Is it ok to add Missingno. , 'M and other glitch pokemon?
They are glitchs, and maybe ONLY Missingno is worth of mention. But, still, I wouldn't add them, they are just glitches.
The "Clefairy was the original mascot" mentions.
It's false. Pikachu was the mascot even before RG was released.
You know, you CAN edit it out...
Is anyone going to finish the Characters Icon for ALL the Pokémon?
I have them already done, will upload when I have the time!
Also, we'd need more tropes or description to fill space, otherwise the pics will be a tad broken...
Well we do need an Everything's Better With Ferret for Sentret and Furret.
But you are right, we need to add some description to fill space.
How about Silicon-Based Life for all the Pokémon in the Mineral egg group?
Mmm, I'd disagree. Shedinja is a chitinous covering, fully organic (and the group is just there to prevent bugs, Sheddy is genderless and breeds with Ditto only); Onix seems to be Rock-plated mostly, Iwapalace's family are hermit crabs, Nutrei's are tripodal nuts, Deathmas used to be a human...
Most of the members of the group are either genderless and in the group to prevent bugs, only Gigaiath's family has enough alien-factor to be considered that instead of just your average critter but with rocks. Or robots. Really, I wouldn't call Porygon, A FREAKING HOLOGRAM, silicon-based. Think a bit.
Okay, So Not all Mineral Pokémon are Silicon-Based Life, But that what tropes could I used?
I mean they're isn't an Tropes call Mineral Like Creatures or something.
Some are Robotic Lifeforms, and others are Inanimate Animated Objects, IIRC the name of the tropes.
Mag Bas, that's not how Signature Moves work on Pokemon. They are attacks that only a Pokemon or family can learn by regular, non-event means. Petal Dance is as much as Vileplume's signature move as Hydro Pump is Blastoise's: Nope. No longer. And they change with gens; Twineedle no longer is one, but used to be. Reverting. Also, you should stop making such changes, as you seem to have trouble gasping some concepts about the elements.
"Many characters have a specific skill, attack, taunt, evasive maneuver, and/or spell they use more frequently than any of their other ones; this is the character's Signature Move. Sometimes, however, a Signature Move, like a Catchphrase, may turn out to be more an example of Never Live It Down; i.e. the character doesn't actually use the move that much, but everyone calls it their signature move, most likely because it became a Crowning Moment Of Awesome.
Any move or trope listed on Grandfather Clause is likely a Signature Move, as well. "
This is the description of the Signature Move trope. Not exists nothing hinting in this description that the character have that be the only to learn the move. By this definition, i am pretty sure that at least Crabhammer,
Spore and Spider Web yet are examples of Signature Move to Krabby/Kingler, Paras/Parasect and Spinarak/Ariados respectively. I am also pretty sure that Lick qualifies as the Signature Move to Lickitung, despite he being far of the only pokemon to learn this.The same thing applies to Dream Eater to Drowzee/Hypno, between others. The trope Signature Move is different of the use of the expression "signature move" by the Pokemon fandom. By this i am reversing their reversal, at least in the cases where i am pretty confident. By the way, i know about the use of the expression in the pokemon fandom. I read the Signature Move page in the bulbapeda before of put the Signature Move of Umbreon, Vaporeon and Jolteon.
Lickitung did not learn Lick in gen I, only the Gastly family and Jynx did. So no, not a signature move anymore that Flamethrower for Charizard.
Signature is exclusive here, pretty much. Not everybody agrees with bulbapedia's fanon articles, either. But, what you are doing is omitting information. Stop deleting things, their presence does not hurt.
I guess that you not understood. i copied the description of the TROPE Signature Move there above. Not exists nothing in the description of the trope saying that the character needs be the only that knows one move. In other words, here, Signature Move is NOT exclusive. By the way, i verified. Flamethrower really is mentioned as the signature move of Charizard in their Trophy in Super Smash Bros Brawl.
I guess it's true that Signature Move don't have to be exclusive, but Signature Move is part of the Signature Tropes, which according to their description, are tropes that define a character or work of fiction/non-fiction, making them unique and easily identifiable. So regardless of what Brawl says, Flamethrower can't be Charizard's Signature Move, not any more than it's the Signature Move of pretty much any other fire-type(you could say that it's the Signature Move of fire-types in general, but...).
Edit - Also, it's pretty hard to apply the usual description of Signature Move here, as Pokemon aren't characters in the usual sense. With the exception of Pokemon that have a very small movepool, Pokemon can have many moves and you can't really name a move that they use more frequently than any of their other ones(metagame aside). So the only things that you can call their Signature Move are moves that are either exclusive of near exclusive to them, or moves that practically define them, like Splash for Magikarp.
Actually, exist moves that are used more often by determined pokemons in different medias. By example, Sing to Jigglypuff(come on, the their own character's description here mentions this: "Their talents include sleep-inducing singing.") . In either case i concurs with you about Charizard. By this i am removing Solarbeam, Hydro Pump and Flamethrower to Venusaur, Blastoise and Charizard.
Erm, you now are just putting random moves over the place. Sing is not anymore's Jigglypuff's move that those three's moves. I do not associate Acid Armor with Vaporeon, for example. They are not quite signature moves if loads of things learn it.
And you forgot Grass/Fire/Water Oath, the elemental hyper beams in all starters, and basically everything after gen II. As well as making correct gramatical and format choices...
Take for a moment that there are 3 different people disagreeing with you, and ponder that you may be wrong.
EDIT: A good solution would be limit it to exclusive moves, or pseudo-exclusives, but mentioning after which gen they stopped being exclusive. And, again, Acid Armor and Pin Missile were never exclusive, not excedingly associated, with the Eeveelutions. Morning Sun and Moonlight were exclusive and pseudo exclusive when introduced, and are more heavily associated with Espeon and Umbreon, but the others, not so much. And, again, mentions of the moves stopping being exclusive, and all that.
I am using the definition of the trope Signature Move given in the Signature Move page. Jigglypuff uses Sing near all the times where he appear on screen outside gameplay. If he is using one move outside gameplay, in cutscenes or in official images, more often than not he is using Sing. Jigglypuff using Based in the description of the trope that is in the Signature Move page, Sing qualifies as Jigglypuff Signature Move. I am not arguing that this qualifies by the definition of "Signature Move" of the Pokemon fandom. I am arguing that this qualifies by the definition of Signature Move of this wiki.
EDIT:If Pin Missile and Acid Armor really are not this associated to Jolteon and Vaporeon(or to be more exact, Jolteon and Vaporeon are not associated with Pin Missile and Acid Armor, sorry by the mistake. I am editing this now.
But Sing is far from exclusive from Jigglypuff. It is just like Flamethrower.
And, Signature Move gets a different definition over here, pretty much.
Darth Sidious is well far of be the only Sith that knows Force Lighning and this is listed as his Signature Move in the Signature Move page(:.
Darth Sidious is not a species of animal. Not to mention, it was the first to use it in any medium AFAIK. Jigglypuff is not even the first Pokemon to learn Sing, Clefairy has it and is as likely as use it.
And, as I said, Signature move is different for Pokemon, as those are species. Harden is not Metapod's signature move, and it is the only thing it can do.
Also, you are being confronted by 3 different people. 3 agree and one disagrees. I would say this is important, and that you may be wrong.
A trope is not played the same way across franchises. And I would appreciate if you stopped linking to Signature Move in each reply, specially if there are only 2 words between links. It is annoying and breaks the flow of the lecture.
Clefairy uses Sing TOO less often than Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff is so known by their ability of use Sing that the guy that written the description of Jigglypuff(based in the page history, one guy named PDL) in this page putted one reference to this : "Their talents include sleep-inducing singing."
EDIT:Only two different people(Cag and Eriorguez) beyond myself replied in this discussion. Why three?
Because I misread Cag's username and though there were 2 people editing, two that's it. Still, that's 2 against one.
It has indications. The chart is the one that matters, the "other signature moves" is more akin to BS, just like the Pseudo-legendary page had some mentions for Lucario, Ninetales and Arcanine for some reason.
And, no, as it has been said countless times, it does not work that way. Really, you undid twice the same edit, and stand adamantly against other people. Get somebody else to support yourself, or stop trying to get your word stand against other's.
I in no moment argued that Jigglypuff having Sing as Signature Move follow the definition of "Signature Move" in the Pokemon fandom. I am arguing that this follow the definition of the trope Signature Move in this site. Two questions: first-you considers the mention of the ability to put the others to sleep with sing in Jigglypuff character's description is inadequate? Second-If "no" to the first, you considers put one mention similar to this in Clefairy's description adequate?
Note that the main argument of Cag is that they have movepools so big that, quoting he "it's pretty hard to apply the usual description of Signature Move here" the that i am arguing by far is that IS possible in some cases(as Jigglypuff) use the usual description of Signature Move, until if the pokemon in question is well far of be the only capable of use this move.
Then, an explanation is due, as Sing for Jigglypuff is not the same as Psycho Break for Mewtwo, or even Blast Burn for Charizard. They are not the same, they should not be indicated as the same.
That's pretty much it, a generic move associated with a Pokemon, is not the same as a move learnt by an specific limited group or a single Pokemon, and should be adressed as such. That's pretty much what I meant, sorry for not making it clear.
OK, i am making this now. Thanks.
Should we add images to the page, to complete the descriptions? If so, which set of images should we use?
-Front sprites of the latest games in the series. Small enough to not take much space (asuming a single image per family), but prone to need change.
- Mystery Dungeon portaits: Good face details, small size and consistent over time if another entry in the series is released, but, as it is now, the set is incomplete.
-Sugimori art: Great detail, but too large, prone to change with remakes/third versions, and the event Pokemon will take some years to arrive.
-HGSS Overworld sprites: Good detail, good notion of relative size, small size, but the set is incomplete.
-PC/Team screen mini sprites: Unchanged since 2003, complete set, small, but maybe a bit too small and lacking in detail.
And, now sites are using B/W images, so the Nintendo cease and desists have cooled down, so that's not a problem.
EDIT: Well, and now, Dream World Artwork, which is homogenous across gens, and seems to contain all species. But it is not fully ripped yet.
Okay, made it with B/W sprites, I have done all the Gen I families, but just uploaded the Bulbasaur one to see reactions; if positive I'll keep uploading them; providing it doesn't take too much of a toll on the page.
Despite both being mouses, the Marill line have more in commom with the Jigglypuff line(look in Azumarill/Wigglytuff) than the Pikachu line.
Outside being honey-loving bears the two have few things in commom- and bears having one prediletion by honey is commom in fiction.
He remembers E.Honda in pretty much the same degree than any random sumo fighter.
Actually, Rayquaza have more things in commom with the Dratini line than with Mewtwo. And despite his "fire" theme, Groudon hardly is this similar with Ho-Oh. The only with any real chances of be one expy is Kyogre.
a)They are not this similar phisically. b)they are not this similar in terms of attacks/powers, neither in "theme".
Things Rayquaza has in common with the Dratini line: Both are Dragon Pokemon; Dragonite is Dragon/Flying too. Same as with Altaria.
Things Rayquaza has in common with Mewtwo: Both first found at Lv.70 in a localization unrelated to the story after the Elite 4, both the strongest Pokemon in their generation. The intention of Rayquaza was to be the new Mewtwo.
For Marill, why do you see it closer to Jigglypuff? It is an elemental rodent that evolves into a not very imposing final form and got a preevolution the next generation. It resembles Jigglypuff (and Clefairy) because those share quite a bunch of things with Pikachu, too.
The fact that they are not physically similar doesn't mean that the new Pokemon were not made with the ones mentioned in mind. Groudon is similar to Ho-Oh in that it is a legendary Version Mascot, fought with 7 badges and in its 40's, and has a fire theme. Groudon not being a phoenix does not mean that it wasn't inspired by Ho-Oh, as it becomes crystal clear if you take a look at the generations after II. Dialga the same, and Reshiram was victim of a plot twist but still counts. You may not see it, but it is there, people nowadays always expect 2 version legendaries and a third one, ever since the third one.
And, really, saying that Rayquaza has things in common with Dratini is way to kill your argument. I'll give it to you in Teddiursa and Hariyama, but those Pokemon are cleary inspired by older ones at least in concept. The design would be the thing that changes, because otherwise it'd be VERY stale.
Also, Deoxys an expy of Mewtwo? That is also a bit of an stretch, they have in common typing and genetic theme, they do not do the same role in the games, we could say Deoxys was an original concept for legends (like Latias and Latios that gen; or the fact that now the mascot trios were official and not by basing 2 Pokemon on one from a previous gen). Genesect would be a better example of a Deoxys expy, but Mewtwo... It is a bit weird, as the first gen was quite unpredictable, but, nowadays, you'll be getting in any given gen: Fire/Water/Grass starters (Bulbasaur/Charmander/Squirtle expies pretty much), Pikaclones (badly done Pikachu expies, although Emonga is almost reaching Raichu level), early game rodents and birds (Rattata and Pidgey expies), pseudo-legends (Dratini expies), at least a normal legendary trio (Articuno/Zapdos/Moltres expies, especially the dogs), version mascot trios (Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza expies, and those 3 take elements from Mewtwo, Lugia and Ho-Oh) and a event legend with even stats (Mew expy). From the 3rd gen on, it is easy to see that patterns exist, and, if old Pokemon are not present, new Pokemon are expies of those.
Heracross was really being worked as a Pinsir evo, but the design didn't quite make the cut, and it remained separate. Compare their stats, and Scyther and Scizor (Scyther and Pinsir were counterparts in Red/Blue), and the fact that Heracross is a Pokemon similar to Pinsir, but better despite the same Base Stat Total; same deal as Scizor and Scyther...
Responding to their replies:
Rayquaza is more similar to the Dratini lineage because both are serpentine dragons with powers about the climate and-yes- have the same type. And seriously, outside be one Bonus Boss be found in the same level than Mewtwo and having the total base stats(but not the individual base stats) the two have something in commom? Come on, i guess that he have more in commom with Lugia( in appearance, typing and moveset) than with Mewtwo(actually, depending of the distance between the creation of the second pokemon movie and of Rayquaza, this probably is the case)
About the Marill line, I not said that they are expies of the Jigglypuff line, only that are more similar with the Jigglypuff line than with the Pikachu line.(the only member of both the lines that remembers one other phisically is Azumarill/Wigglytuff, both the lines have one member that have one pre-evolution in the following generation and he is one mouse pokemon, the same than Pikachu.
About Groudon, i can argue with the same ease that Groudon is based in Moltres. Both are equally fire themed non-roaming legendaries. Or arguably Entei. the fact is that Groudon is not this similar to Ho-oh.
About Deoxys, yes, thinking well, i concurs with you. But at same time he is more similar to Mewtwo than more of the removed guys.
About Heracross, based in the Bulbapedia, this thing of Heracross be an evolution of Pinsir is pure Fanon
But it is BECAUSE of it being a bonus boss why it is an Expy. They have the same function in their corresponding games. Entei and Moltres are not on the case of a game.
You don't get it, what I am saying, is that the respective Expies have the same function inside the game that their predecessors. Rayquaza fills the same role as Mewtwo, Ho-Oh has the same Groudon got later... The similarities with the Dratini line are an stretch, as Rayquaza is not a Pokemon that evolves, nor a pseudo-legend. By your logic, Murandoo is an Expy of Arcanine, because, while they look similar, they are very different and do not share any in-game role.
EDIT: I now get why we are conflicting: You are basing your edits in the flavour text, and I'm basing them in the base stats and educated guessing at Game Freak's intentions. But, try to deny that Rayquaza was not intended to be the new Mewtwo; or Groudon and Kyogre to stand for Lugia and Ho-Oh; and then Dialga/Palkia/Giratina and Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem to do the same for those 3.
And, still not getting why you think Marill is more like Jigglypuff that Pikachu. It has the same face as Pikachu! Pikablu, remember that! It acting as somewhat of a mascot for Gen II! C'mon, I do not understand you, at all. I'd leave that to a third person.
By this logic, Kefka is an Expy of ExDeath. And the two have more in commom one with the other than Mewtwo with Rayquaza or Groudon with Ho-oh. The problem of put Rayquaza as Mewtwo expy is that despite having the same role as Bonus Boss, the two have less in commom than Mewtwo with Deoxys- and until you noted that put Deoxys as Mewtwo Expy is "a bit of a scratch"
Actually, Marill mouth is totally different of the mouth of Pikachu and have nothing in the cheeks AND have no neck. The face of Marill is more similar to Pichu than Pikachu. Also, thanks the white part in the chest,(Marill) ears(Azumarill) and the overall format of the body,(both) both are more similar physically to Wigglytuff than Pikachu.
You don't get what makes an Expy in Pokemon. And, Marill and Jiggly are similar JUST IN THEIR ROUNDNESS. But it resembles Pikachu because IT IS A MOUSE WITH ELEMENTAL POWERS. Jeez, you have to be trolling, what's next, say that Plusle/Minum/Pachirisu/Emonga are not Pikachu expies?
Oh, not, i am not arguing that Marill is one Expy of Jigglipuff(and neither of Wigglytuff, that was who i actually compared them with), only that i believe that only be one mouse with elemental powers is not sufficient to qualify as one expy of Pikachu- and other than this the two have really few things in commom-either phisically, in concept, powers or flavor . The two have less in commom than Meowth and Skitty .( By the way, Plusle/Minum/Pachirisu/Emonga are actually similar to Pikachu both in terms of powers as in appearance. Despite being one mouse with elemental powers, Marill is not actually similar to Pikachu, neither in powers, neither in appearance. Is this that i tried point when compared Marill appearance with Wiggytuff )
Erm, so it has to be Electric type to be a Pika expy? Type is the determining factor for being a Expy, according to you? Well, I disagree with you, and with your removal of content from the article, content that has not been touched at all beforehand. People agree on Marill being a Pikaclone, or on Rayquaza being Mewtwo 2. You go just for flavor text and ignore OBVIOUS things, because, if you ask anybody, they'll tell you that Marill is based on Pikachu...
And, why is there a mention of Taillow and Sentret averting Com Mons? Because you EXPECT them to be Com Mons, yet you find yourself trying to find ont instead.
I'm reverting the changes you made in those regards, until a third person fights my points, or you try to challenge mine.
Not , have not than be one electric-type. But have than be more that only be one mouse with elemental powers to qualify as Expy. The motive that i removed Marill is because the two barely have anything in commom beyond both being mouses. Similar role, appearance, powers and concept, are the things that define one Expy and Marill fails in all them except perhaps concept- and they are less similar in concept than Skitty/Meowth . About Rayquaza, more Bonus bosses in rpg games are not expies of other bonus bosses only because are bonus bosses. You already must have noted that i put Rayquaza as the Expy of Lugia. This makes more sense than Rayquaza being one Expy of Mewtwo- Lugia role in relation to to the Legendary Birds is the second movie mirrors Rayquaza role in their own group, Both also have one draconic appearance, Both(exatly as Mewtwo) have the same total base stats. Both are Bonus bosses. Also, depending of the game is fought in level 70- AFTER the Elite Four(exactly as Rayquaza)because the level 70 Lugia is in the Gold Version and the Silver wing is only gained in Kanto . In other words, Rayquaza is more similar to the second Lugia in ALL the aspects.
They are mouses, in the fairy egg group, they evolve but don't change much, they are the face of their generation, they got a preevo in the gen following their debut... I see plenty of details there.
You can say that Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff and Marill make somewhat of a quartet. You could see that treatment cleary in Stadium 2.
Hmm.. i am starting to guess that you is right about Marill-but not about Rayquaza. He yet sounds more similar to one Lugia expy than one Mewtwo one. Read the reply above, please, about the number of similarities between Rayquaza and Lugia. (other thing the two have in commom-Lugia was one version mascot-something that Rayquaza eventually was)
Because Rayquaza is an Expy in concept. We may as well call Expies the things that are consistent across the different generations. Anyway:
-Gen I: The original 151, incluiding Mewtwo, are released. Mewtwo is the ultimate Pokemon there of, but can only be caught in the Bonus Dungeon, as a Bonus Boss.
-Gen II: 100 new Pokemon get released. As game mascots, instead of the fully evolved starters, 2 legendaries are used. Those 2 legendaries are meant to evoke the "ultimate" feeling of Mewtwo, and, as such, get its same base stats, but rearranged, learn moves at the same level, and are treated in some media (Stadium 2, most official guides) as a Power Trio. An unofficial one, but they still were statistically similar. Anyway, one of those legends was the prototype of a storyline one (and a full-fledged storyline legend in the remakes), and the other served as the Bonus Boss.
However, for the third version, using Mewtwo as a mascot would be just plain ODD. Suicune became an Ascended Extra and the sole third version mascot to not be part of a Power Trio (Yellow is a fourth version). A problem appeared there.
-Gen III: Legendary version mascots yet again. One has relation with fire, and the other with water. But, with the fiasco with Crystal, they made a third overpowered legendary: In the original games, it was the exact same deal as Mewtwo: Bonus Boss in the Bonus Dungeon, last in the Dex (which Mewtwo also was in the Johto Dex not counting events), highest Base Stat Total (and, that Bst was aimed at, intentional and not a coincidence).
Rayquaza was made with 2 things in mind: Mewtwo, and not going the Suicune way. It is pretty obvious, although my explanations can be fairly confusing. Still, the guy was made in the vein of "ultimate", "Bonus Boss", and "last in the dex". And, like I said, it got publicity as "the new Mewtwo".
After that, we got expies of Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza as a whole. Twice in a row, because Kyurem will very likely be the mascot of the third version.
Lugia is the mascot of a PAIRED version. Rayquaza is the mascot of a third version; fairly different. Mainly because Lugia won't be touched or referenced without doing the same with Ho-Oh. Or why do you think Ho-Oh became the master of the Beasts? Lugia is part of a pair, it will just have Expies as parts of pairs.
And, the second movie is the one whose significance got challengered the most; the birds lost their significancy, and Lugia only got one more reference to being related to the birds since. A single one.
Rayquaza was not related to Lugia that way. Maybe somebody got the idea for Emerald taking a look at the second movie, but it was mostly the one to balance the land vs. sea theme.
EDIT: Why is Rayquaza an Expy of Mewtwo, and not of Lugia? Well, out of its trio (or pseudo-trio, for convenience placing Mewtwo with Lugia and Ho-Oh), it is the one least alike the others. The same applies to Giratina and Kyurem, they are Bonus Boss that are roughly part of a trio, yet they are the ones that are the least like the rest. It also shares with Mewtwo the versatility, as both of them learn MANY moves, more that anything that isn't God/last common ancestor/able to learn ANYTHING; while their partners cannot even learn the 3 elements of Fire, Ice, Lightning.
Aham... Is possible associate Giratina and Rayquaza with the groups they are associated only looking to them and also are associated with them in the backstory. Outside his power, Mewtwo and Rayquaza have less things in commom one with the other than Lugia/Rayquaza. Also, Mewtwo is paired more often with Mew than with Rayquaza. Seriously, the problem with say that Rayquaza was inspired in Mewtwo is that if you remove he of the position of "main bonus boss" is near impossible see the two as part of one group. Despite not having the same Main Bonus Boss role, Deoxys have more in commom with Mewtwo than Mewtwo with Rayquaza. By the way, you said that Deoxys being expy of Mewtwo is "a bit of scratch". Well, the guy that written Pokemon Special disagrees(read about the Fire Red/Leaf Green arc). Mewtwo never was associated to this extent with Rayquaza, Lugia or Ho-Oh-or with any other legendary beyond Mew. Is a bit of scratch associate Rayquaza with especifically Mewtwo- exist two other guys with the same total Base Stats and Bonus Boss status before of the generation where he was created, after all . In either case i am reputting Mewtwo as Expy of Deoxys and reputting Rayquaza as Expy of Lugia. Their arguments to Rayquaza be Expy of Mewtwo but not Lugia were not convincing. Only versality-that Mewtwo only is capable with tms/move tutors-and if you look to the Generation II movesets of Ho-oh and Lugia both have near the same versality than Rayquaza AND more similarity in the Moveset. Also, be the "least alike" of their trio-that is totally unnoficial in Mewtwo case- sounds one bit of a scratch.
For starters, Deoxys' base stat total is 600, not 680; not the same as Mewtwo.
Second, Ancient Power is learnt by ALL legendaries sans the ones of recent origin.
Third, Lugia is not getting an Expy of itself because Lugia is part of a duo.
For Pokemon Special, I did not see a pairing of greater significance: Deoxys was a very strong Pokemon Giovanni had, and Red used Mewtwo, of whom he had earned his respect, to battle them. But it was quite more complex that that.
Lugia and Ho-Oh are themselves Mewtwo Expies, that's why Rayquaza has similarities to Lugia too (because of similar concepts, but the birds have never again been associated to the climate). But, came Kyogre and Groudon being more similar to those two, Rayquaza is the one that does not have a direct counterpart. Hence why, along the very similar elements leading to its capture, SHOUT MEWTWO.
And, I said, it would be better to leave it as it was before, and wait for a third person to change it. Of course, if LOGIC applies, it would leave it as it was before you started to edit things out. You give too much ground to the movies, and not to HOW THE FREAKING CREATURES ARE CREATED. And you make bogus statements. You just repeat that the arguments don't seem convincing to you, but you do not say anything new, just that you disagree with the bunch of data I'm giving.
I'm reverting your changes, and leaving them there until somebody else edits them. I've never seen anybody say that Ray is a Lugia expy, except those who disregard the games when trying to make a canon out of the franchise.
Thanks by not delete my edits. Well i am sorry. the truth is that i was looking all the time the gameplay informations in other tab, in the Bulbapedia(despite having played the games,i not decored the exact stats of the pokemons or the their complete movesets - i never participated of competitive play and by this looked this in the hour, only to confirm before of edit. The only that i decored are the Mew clones and Arceus, to the stats, and pokemons with only one or two moves, to the moves- by obvious reasons.) I guess that i confused myself when looking swiftly(the edits have timing ) to Deoxys stats(i already know that more super-pokemons have the same total base stats and was trying confirm this and the first and last number of the value are the same...sorry) in each level and i not looked in the complete list of pokemons with Ancient Power when i compared Lugia moveset with Rayquaza and they looked similar(By the way i know that the regis have Ancient Power, and, of memory at least some of the pre-hystorical pokemons have it)......sorry.
Hey, no problem, forgive me for going a bit overboard with all this, I should stop going into the Internet to debate with some hangover... XD
Anyway, take a look: http://veekun.com/dex/gadgets/compare_pokemon?pokemon=Groudon&pokemon=Ho-Oh&pokemon=Kyogre&pokemon=Lugia&pokemon=Rayquaza&pokemon=Mewtwo
You can see there that statistically, Lugia and Ho-Oh are closer to Mewtwo that to anything else in terms of numbers, and level up learnset (they learned attacks at the same levels in gens 2 and 3, but since gen 4, the levels got a slight change. Tyranitar and Celebi also were victim to that treatment, no longer learning their moves at exactly the same level as Dragonite and Mew respectively). Comparing Mewtwo and Rayquaza, both of them are meant to be used as all offense, and be able to be taught loads of moves (they are the only ones in their groups to learn all three of Fire, Ice, Lightning, for example). I tend to look at the data to determinate Expies with legends, so that's where our conflict arose.
But doesn't matter, Ray draws elements from both RBY Mewtwo, and 2nd Movie Lugia. ;)
Pikachu as a 'Darkhorse.
That notion on Clefairy is false. Pikachu was always meant to be the mascot, even before the games came out as promo art from early designs shows. Does it still count as a Darkhorse then?
Bringing this up again, but it doesn't count.
I was disappointed that this sheet does not contain entries on every single Pokemon.
So I propose that the Pokedex: Extended Fanon Edition be worked into this page.
C'mon, I dare ya.
Okay, I'm starting the entries here, about the families rather that the species, and until somebody decides to just split it to another page.
Should place holders for other Pokemon/families be added?
Could be even better now that the project has its own Just for Fun wiki section, yet has been discussed about to be moved elsewhere.
Would the microphone/marker Jigglypuff count as a recurring character?
Almost certainly. Didn't it survive into the fifth or sixth season?
Microphone Marker Jigglypuff was more of a running gag than a reoccurring character who actually received plot importance.
As this is a exemple of Power Creep, Power Seep?
This is not the videogame and pikachu is not treated as a Game-Breaker in story.
The characters are not playng the videogame
Misty always was closer to The Chick.
The characters are not playng the video game.
This is a proof of his bravery, not badassitude.
No, he is not.
The two have something in commom beyond the hair color?
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