Discussion Characters / MCULoki

I think this is a really good idea! For the reasons you mentioned, and also, if we copy-pasted everything, then it will probably not take long until this "the page is too long" warning appears again.

Yeah, main loki and l1130 share all the backstory + all tropes from Thor and the avengers+ a lot of tropes like a shapeshifting trickster etc. I'd keep them together but split off sylvie and all the others. Otherwise troping stuff like DB Cooper will be awkward.

I did the thing, I hope everyone is fine with it. MCU: Multiverse

Aaaand.. the warning appears again. Can we create a separate page for all Loki variants or should we just move L1130 section to the Multiverse page?

I'd say it's okay to unmark the spoilers in Sylvie's folder, since as you said, she's basically a Walking Spoiler.

I'm unsure about the IW spoilers. I mean, aren't character pages, similarly to moments pages, mainly for post-viewing? And character sheets are also mentioned on the spoilers-off page regarding late-arrival spoilers. The movie in question is already more than three years old, after all.

Probably, but he shares all tropes from Thor and the Avengers with the "main" Loki so I'm unsure how to split the tropes cleanly. Until the end of the Avengers there is technically only one Loki. I'd rather wait for the show release before doing anything.

I say wait to see how different the variant version becomes.

Given Vision has no less than three sub-pages (Original, Westview, and White) and the Loki TV show has another alternate Loki confirmed as it's Big Bad, I actually feel it would be best to separate them as quickly as possible.

It is easier with Vision. With Loki, "Original" Loki would be anything up to Thor and the Avengers, including later reveals like the DB Cooper story or turning Thor into a frog story. Imagine trying to split the very long page, and then finding out it was not needed.

I'd keep L1130 on this page and without subfolders for now, and wait for a few episodes. It is yet unclear where they are going with these identities.

I think it is safe to create a subfolder for the Big Bad version though. She seems to be very different.

The Loki variant needs a separate page IMO. He has already diverged quite significantly from the prime version of Loki.

I like the Multiverse page idea.

I think it should be. But on the same page

There is a discussion about this below already. Please check it instead of creating the second one :-)

I agree, with you; it says on the page for Narcissist: "it is distinct from It's All About Me in that it does not focus simply on characters who frequently display self-centered behavior (often for comedic effect), but explores the mindset of characters whose behavior is strongly symptomatic of narcissistic personality disorder."

That does not happen in Ragnarok, it is more downplayed from how he was behaving in Avengers 1, and it is also played a lot more for comedic effect. So I'd vote for that It's All About Me is more fitting here.

It's All About Me fits better, neither of them are in love with themselves. Especially Tony who is more of a Broken Ace and is full of selfloathing.

I'd definitely agree to add that trope; and I personally also agree that Too Dumb to Live doesn't really apply. He knows he'll die either way, either by Thanos's Hand when he fails or by the Black Order's Hand when he succeeds in killing Thanos but he goes it either way because the situation was so dire. And using a small dagger on Thanos might seem stupid at first, but he just didn't have any other options at that moment and Gamora's reaction on Knowhere when she believes she killed Thanos shows that something like that can actually kill Thanos, so yeah, I wouldn't really call that action dumb.

Yeah, I don't think it's dumb so much as desperate.

Yeah it's not an act of dumbness as he's fully aware of what he's getting himself into. Determined Defeatist would be more accurate. Heck it almost verges on being a Heroic Sacrifice.

Mnnh, I dunno. There still would have been plenty of safer methods, even if he didn't plan on surviving. Why not create a few of his copys, for instance? Also, just because Gamora THINKS that a dagger can kill Thanos, doesn't mean that it's true. If anything, it is contradicting to what she said earlier, and judging what else the Mad Titan has survived, yeah, I don't see a tiny dagger scratching him. But hey, democracy.

I agree that Too Dumb to Live isn't appropriate for Loki dying at Thanos' hand. The trope is about someone who has clenched the Idiot Ball so tightly the audience truly feels they don't deserve to live.

There's a lot going on this scene and it's unclear exactly what Loki's full intention and motivation was. Determined Defeatist or Redemption Equals Death seem to be the likely explanation for his actions.

However, I've also heard theories that Loki's "the sun will shine on us again", then he disappears for awhile, then reappears and attacks Thanos left-handed when he favors his right hand in most of his dagger fights has led some to believe he somehow pulled a hustle on Thanos.

Hard to say, but it does tend to suggest Loki was not in full-on idiot mode in this scene so Too Dumb to Live really doesn't seem like a good trope for him.

At least till we see Avengers 4.

Remember that Loki is a god (from the MCU viewpoint) and that he's much more deadly with a dagger than any mere human would be.

Yes, I never saw his move as not thinking it through, but mere desperation. He was certainly fully aware he was about to be Rewarded as a Traitor Deserves, as Thanos was unlikely to fall for his pretend devotion.

I didn't know the Determined Defeatist trope, but that seems to be a nice fit.

I moved the entry to another trope per discussion.

Am I the only troper who thinks that Loki's final death at the hands of Thanos is also an example of "Alas, Poor Villain"?

This trope is misused to hell. This is not when the audience feels sorry for the villain but rather when heroes In-Universe do. Thor weeping over his body counts if one believes Loki is a villain in IW. Thor and Frigga mourning him after he seemingly dies in the first film counts as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#

It is unclear which hair color he had in the myths and whether he originally had association with fire or aquired it later.

I actually believed the same, but we had quite a discussion with ThePantherMan in pm and he is pretty convinced that if Wanda was able to destroy the Mind Stone, the blast would destroy the Space Stone too. I added that part back per discussion with him.

On the other hand, we don't know why Thanos was after Asgardians in the first place. Did he specifically track the refugee ship down for the Tesseract, or was he on his way to wipe Asgard and take the Stone (like he just did with Xandar) and ran into it? If it's the latter, he would have killed half the refugees anyway (since his goal is to wipe out half of everything, basically). Until we know for sure, I'm against adding that item.

I'm really unsure about this situation. I mean, Vision specifically says that the reason why Wanda can destroy the Mind Gem is because her powers basically originate from it. So whatever is about to destroy an Infinity Stone has to be connected to it to be successful.

On the other hand, there is the possibility (although it would probably cross into WMG) that Asgard has Power Sources in its core that were generated/created by the Tesseract (it was in Odin's vault for a long time before it was brought to Norway, after all), so maybe the explosion of Asgard would have destroyed it.

I'd probably be for cutting it, too, since it all would just be Speculative Troping, we simply don't know enough.

I wouldn't object if you cut it but we probably should write to ThePantherMan then because he definitely would be against it.

PS Also, Thor says to Thanos that the Tesseract was destroyed on Asgard, so in-universe Thor believes that it can be destroyed.

I think we can safely add it because even if it wouldn't have been destroyed (and I highly, highly doubt it would've been), he was at least the Unwitting Instigator of Doom for the Asgardian Refugee Ship, since if he hadn't taken the Tesseract, it wouldn't have been destroyed.

Larkmarn, read my second post on this page please. There is no definitive proof to that...

... quite frankly, that's a nonsensical interpretation. "Maybe he was just going to destroy them anyway" is a bananaballs far stretch. He knew the Tesseract was on the ship. He wanted the Tesseract. He's looking for the stones specifically and explicitly so he doesn't have to do the "seek out individual peoples and kill them" thing. So he found the ship. In the process, he goes ahead and kills half the people there, sure, but the idea that he's targeting it just to halve its population is utterly insane.

I was not saying that he targeted them at all. What I am saying is that we don't know whether Thanos knew that the Tesseract is on the ship. There is no proof to that. He could simply know that it was last found on Asgard, just as he knew that the Power Stone is on Xandar.

So he would go to Asgard to take the Stone (and wipe out half the population in process) like he just did with Xandar. But Asgard was destroyed and instead of getting there Thanos would run into a ship on his way, they did not get far.

Unless there is a direct confirmation that Thanos was able to track the location of individual Stones rather than had some general knowledge about them, I'm against stating that the destruction of the ship is Loki's fault.

Also, if he was really able to track them, why he did not track the Soul Stone himself?

Edit: I'll just leave this here for scientific purposes. https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/8mw7rq/spoilers_what_would_have_happened_if_loki/

And some redditors decided to discuss it again: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/8zm3se/would_the_snap_have_happened_if_loki_left_the/

And again.. https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/93pl12/if_loki_didnt_steal_the_tesseract_at_the_end_of/

Seeing all those discussions, I would delete that part by now.

Thor definitely cared about Loki for nearly all of the films. However it's Loki who really pulls the Heel–Face Turn by Ragnarok and while it's not explicitly stated it is heavily implied that it's acceptance into the family that enabled him to do so. Ultimately Thor changed too and was no longer the arrogant idiot from pre-MCU but now they got to hang out together as brothers.

To be honest, I want to add some things: Thor is quite care about Loki just like general siblings, but not to extent of what fandom like to portrayed him quite a bit in the relationship.

I have link of an analysis in Thor/Loki relationship in ragnarok: https://lucianalight.tumblr.com/post/173124438083/small-potato-of-defiance-shine-of-asgard https://lucianalight.tumblr.com/post/171837672053/thor-ragnarok-review-part-4?is_related_post=1

Lol, “love martyr” my ass.

Good job at twisting things like “loki trying to kill him since children”, what the hell? Stabbing doesn’t mean killing since in asgardians, just like how thor electrocutes loki in ragnarok. Thor just mentioned that loki once stabbing him as children, but it never explicitedly says how many times he doing it or whether he doing it for fun/prank or just tested his magic at that time.

I edited those because I want to keep things in neutral term rather than too biased to one character. I neither edited it into "thor hates loki/ doesn't love him", or erasing loki crimes at all. I just removed what being edited as "thor loves loki/ thor loves loki sincerely/selflessly", because it's not the right either.

It would help if you stated reasons when deleting things, because otherwise it's totally unclear what to assume. At least something like "Tone down" or "Edited for style" in the remarks. I agree that many lines go over the top, and I removed quite a few myself.

I do heavily disagree with your interpretation of Thor-Loki relationship though. In my opinion, the analysis you linked is as over the top as some lines on their MCU pages, sorry. Just skewed in the other direction. Narcissistic abuse from Thor, really?

Ragnarok is the reason I became an MCU fan (I watched all movies because of it), and I love it to bits. I don't think there is anything wrong with characterization of Thor and especially Loki there (the line about becoming predictable is taken straight from the comics and is the reason he sacrifices himself there), but it's not the topic of this discussion.

Narcissistic abuse maybe isn't the appropriate term, but still the analysis raises some points that people often unaware or shrugged it under their views. And Ragnarok it's also the first MCU movies for me (like you, I never bothered watching MCU movie before), but after watching more MCU movies (I'm doing it after IW out), I can definitely says that there's so many wrong characterization in Thor and Loki, especially Loki since he extremely toned down in there ( and in IW). It's the topic of discussion since we're writing many of their personalities here in this page.

Ok, as for the first post you linked. I am no psychologist but I find this post (not mine) insightful and I wouldn't claim that either Thor or Loki have "personality disorders". In Ragnarok, Thor is hurt (he loses his father, his hammer=power and his status as the first-born) and in the "freaky circle scene" he is misplacing the blame on Loki. I agree that he doesn't really understand his brother, but not for the lack of trying. And he cares. Look how he smiles when he sees Loki return, listen how he says "you're late" (because in the elevator scene he used Reverse Psychology and he expected his brother to return).

As for points about Loki in the second post you linked, a) four years have passed between TWD and Ragnarok, during this time he got complacent because Victory Is Boring; "satisfaction is not in his nature" and once he got what he wanted he lost interest in it b) yes he would be scared of the Hulk, and it is justified c) the part about becoming predictable is taken straight from the comics.. along with his self-sacrifice while holding a blue shiny object to avoid being predictable. Comic fans guessed his fate in IW as soon as they saw the first trailer. See link1 and link2.

PS Edited for brevity.

I think the simplest way to look at this is that Thor and Loki regard each other as brothers, and the fact that they are not related by blood simply doesn't occur to them. Brothers fight all the time, and finding out that he was a Frost Giant drove Loki a little crazy. In the end, brothers may fight among themselves but at the end of the day they've got each other's back. Thor wanted Loki to answer for his crimes, but didn't want him killed.

@Asherinka

"In Ragnarok, Thor is hurt (he loses his father, his hammer=power and his status as the first-born) and in the "freaky circle scene" he is misplacing the blame on Loki. I agree that he doesn't really understand his brother, but not for the lack of trying. And he cares. Look how he smiles when he sees Loki return, listen how he says "you're late" (because in the elevator scene he used Reverse Psychology and he expected his brother to return)."

Look, this is what I want to points, it's not because he isn't really "sincerely caring". Of course he's happy when he sees loki's return, because loki has been responding to his "subtle manipulation" aka "Reverse Psychology", and because finally, loki become what Thor wanted him to be back since the event of Thor 1, come back as "good guy" and being his shadow.

Should I debunk "you're late" statement? "You're late" words is obviously not sincere care. It indicates how much thor expected loki to falls into his earlier "words", and he's happy that he succeed making Loki do exactly of what he wants. It's not sincere, I repeat. If he said "You're here" instead of "You're late", you can says that he's sincere since the words "you're here" indicates that he's not that much expecting it, and he's genuinely happy that loki is here now helping him, instead of words "you're late" when it's obviously indicates that thor know that Loki's going to fall into his words. Thor wants loki to fall into his validation and judgement, without considering loki's since he thinks that what loki wants isn't important to him. He wanted loki to be in "his place" that thor specify ( to clarified, I don't think thor's action is wrong according to situation, but like I said, thor is actually not caring to Loki sincerely like fandom always thinks of him to be)

Here's some couple analysis of their relationship and some blogs that speaking some points of it, again: https://lucianalight.tumblr.com/post/174401709328/on-loki-and-on-his-relationship-with-thor https://lucianalight.tumblr.com/post/171233950723/thor-ragnarok-review-part-2

Both Thor and Loki have problems (probably because of pride) to directly state their feelings, and it's also a common issue in the royal family that Loki even lampshades ("open communication was never our family's forte.") So that doesn't mean that Thor's "you're late" isn't sincere. Believe me, that's how siblings very often talk to each other. In that context it's basically the equivalent for "You're here."

If Loki had decided to stay on Sakaar, Thor would have let him. But he knew that that wasn't what Loki actually wanted. That reverse psychology wasn't to manipulate Loki's person, but to get Loki to understand what Loki himself really wants and to stop Loki from destroying his own life because of his own pride.

Come on, if there's one thing that is true throughout all those movies, it's that Thor loves and cares deeply for his brother.

@Hjortron 18

No, "you're late" isn't equivalent to "you're here".

Like I said before, it's different. "late" in this is full of expectation, while "here" is much more sincere since it's more of

"If Loki had decided to stay on Sakaar, Thor would have let him. But he knew that that wasn't what Loki actually wanted. That reverse psychology wasn't to manipulate Loki's person, but to get Loki to understand what Loki himself really wants"

Lie, your statement is a complete lie.

Yes, thor would have let him, but thor would be disappointed as always because loki isn't meeting his expectation or what he always wanted him to be at all. That reverse psychology wasn't to get Loki to understand what Loki himself really wants, it's to get Loki to be what thor thinks/perceives as what loki wants. It's to manipulate loki's own person to be what thor wanted him to be.

Let me debunk your "thor's understanding loki's wants" part. Since when thor ever even understanding, or at least, try to understand him? When? If he really understand loki perfectly, he would have known that loki only wanted to be appreciated/validated as his own person, or his abilities and gifts to be as respected as thor's. Loki doesn't want to be thor's shadow, that's his inner wish (the reason why he spent in his three movies trying to get out of being thor's shadow), and those wish still exist inside loki till now.

If thor really has that sharp perception, he would have realized that, loki got back to be thor's shadow again like in the past, because that's the choice loki can has now in his life. Thor doesn't understand loki's inner deep. He know no such things. All he know is that he thinks that if loki get to be a good person again, they will be back to their old past relationship ( aka superior thor and inferior loki).

Come on, if there's one thing that's true throughout all those movies, it's that Thor "loves" and "cares" for Loki according to his own standard or terms only/not sincerely, unlike Frigga who always loves and cares deeply and sincerely for Loki.

Even as twisted/bad as Loki is, by IW, I will say that Loki's the one who actually loves and cares for his brother more sincerely seeing how he's willing to die for Thor whereas Thor never even thinks of that notion. Sorry for saying that.

Also to have another perception, you can compare to relationship between Gamora and Nebula, you can see that Gamora is far more better sister to Nebula than Thor to Loki ( both gamora and thor are supposedly the "good sibling" in "good sibling, bad sibling" tropes to Nebula and Loki and yet, gamora does much better job at being selfless, actually-admitting-her-own-fault, or non-hypocrite siblings than the "good" Thor).

Relationship between gamora and nebula is also more balance, seeing as their solve their issues by the consideration of the judgement of two persons sides (even though nebula maybe is more at fault, gamora seems to not considering her feelings/judgement as inferior), instead of thor and loki's relationship which centered around one-sided's judgement (loki's feeling/opinion/judgement is entirely inferior to Thor, in which, is the reason why Loki exploded into insanity in the first place, and those things still not changed in ragnarok either). To sums it up, the whole loki and thor relationship is only judged/validated through thor's terms only.

"and to stop Loki from destroying his own life because of his own pride." Thor is the one who have pride, while Loki has self-esteem/inferiority issue in which he try to covered up so hard by his fake pride.

Thor perceptive are black and white about the relationship with Loki and him. For him, Loki is all black, he is the scapegoat he want to blame for their broken relationship (Well, Thor and Loki never has healthy relationship from the start). For Thor himself, Thor is the white one. He begin to accept Loki only when Loki meet with his standard, Maybe he care about Loki, but not by that much like people like to portray him. In The Dark World, the only reason why Thor get Loki out of the prison is because he need his help, he want to use him. Right after Loki dies, he didn't bothered to bury his brother body or bringing it back to Asgard (which led Loki being undiscovered to turn into Odin).

@ Divergent Infant

There was still a fight going on, so of course Thor wouldn't stop and hug Loki even if thats what he wanted.

Then, yes, Thor would be disappointed if Loki stayed on Sakaar, but only because it would mean that he had lost him again, wouldn't see him again, and not because he didn't meet Thor's expectations. Earlier maybe, but I highly doubt that Thor would still think that way after all that character development he went through all those last movies. He's grown out of that way of thinking.

I think, in later movies Thor understands that Loki's main problem is his self-hate and need for validation, but at the same time Thor can't act on that because of everything Loki has done. Yes, it's heavily implied that Thor used to be very patronizing towards Loki during their time growing up and yes, it would have been great if Thor had the insight and stopped and realized that his brother was very off in Avengers and if he had tried to apply to him more, but then Thor still went through quote a lot character development. And after Avengers, Loki was a criminal. Thor cannot just ignore that, no matter how much he loves Loki. And then, in TDW, when Thor was willing to open himself up to Loki again and try to understand him, Loki faked his death. And then when he saw him again 4 years later, things happened and there wasn't much time for that.

And I think the main issue with Loki and being in Thor's shadow was that their father preferred Thor and his people barely noticed Loki. Now, after Odin's death and Hela's "rule", everything is different. Loki doesn't want to rule, he wants to be seen as a hero, and him coming back with the Statesman (the ship where the Asgardians evacuated) grants him exactly that: A chance to be a true hero, not a staged one, like in his play. It's not going back to their old inferior/superior relationship because in that situation, everyone loves him because he is finally truly a hero.

And don't forget that Loki actually tried to kill Thor at least two times. That one time might not count (since Loki could have known that Thor would survive the fall from the Helicarrier in avengers) but he did actually kill him when Thor was mortal in Thor. Yes, I still believe that Loki sincerely loves Thor and would have terribly regretted it if Thor hadn't been revived but Mjolnir, but he still did it, and he didn't know that Thor would live. Those two just really have gone through a lot character development and Thor is no different.

Didn't express myself clearly there, but I meant that Loki is destroying his own life because he rarely shows his true face (he finally does it a few times in TDW and more often in Ragnarok) because of his pride because he doesn't want to appear vulnerable because of his self esteem issues, as you said.

@Killer Beat 72

He had to move on to earth and stop Malekith, if he went back to Asgard Odin in his rage could have prevented Thor from going after Malekith again and Thor couldn't risk the safety for the universe for that. It doesn't mean that Thor doesn't care for Loki.

@Divergent Infant // Killer Beat 72 Which of these two nicknames do you prefer? I checked history, each time you delete text with one account and it gets restored, you log in to the other one and re-delete it.

Thus, on Loki's page (see History) "Divergent Infant" deleted the line about TWD "However, Thor's later behavior, especially after Loki's "death," show that deep down he still loves his brother", it got reworded and partially restored by siberia82 and me and then "Killer Beat 72" immediately deleted the changed line "and Thor's reaction to his "death" at the hand of Kurse show that both of them still love Loki." I decided to ignore it back then. Apparently, I should have started this discussion at once

Now on Thor's page (again, check History) you edit an entry with the Divergent Infant account, write about it on this very discussion page above and proceed to delete it entirely with the Killer Beat 72 account. I wouldn't argue with the deletion itself, the entry was indeed a stretch. But trying to pretend you are two different people is gross.

Okay, I haven't followed the whole discussion (whenever one start putting wall of texts, it's a bad thing and indicative of fan wank), but I must point out that the behavior described above looks a awful lot like serial edit-warring, and using two separate accounts to make it less obvious is extremely suspicious. Just as a reminder, edit-warring is one of the biggest sin on this wiki and can lead to a suspension especially quick. It doesn't matter how justified you think you are for your position, changing back an edit that was corrected (especially without an edit reason) puts you in very shaky grounds.

There's a lot of TL;DR going on here. But, like, Thor cares deeply about Loki, that is made clear in every MCU movie that features them together

@Hjortron 18

No, Thor would be disappointed if Loki stayed on Sakaar, because it would mean that he had lost him again, wouldn't see him again, and yes, because he didn't meet Thor's expectations of the what thor wants his brother to be.

I'm sorry to debunk, but, Thor's characterizations in ragnarok is a soft reboot ( stated by Taika Waititi himself) Thor's earlier characterizations (self-righteous, slight arrogance) is restored by Taika Waititi, so the development in previous movies aren't that much counted. He's still not yet grown out of his way of thinking.

Actually throughout three movie, thor never shown to understand Loki's main problem, at all. He never once shown that he understand this or that, not in Thor 1, not in the avengers, and not in thor 2 or 3. If thor really shown his understanding earlier in thor 1, loki would never what he's in the avengers.

Like I said, thor thinks that he loves loki, but he's loving him not sincerely. That's what my points are. And no matter how much you think that Thor loves loki, Thor never done something that's good for Loki himself.

Since when in TDW, Thor was willing to understand him? He never ask why he did that or this, never once asked what caused loki to be like that, never once understanding loki's pain and have heart talk-to-talk like Gamora and Nebula, and Thor never once admitting his mistakes to Loki at all. Also, for some informations, in TDW, it's more like Loki hides the fact that he's alive rather than fakes his death (kevin feige stated that he's really injured at that time, but it's not enough to kill him).

As for their relationship, It's going back to their old superior Thor/inferior Loki since Thor become a king and Loki his right hand, exactly as Odin planned to be and what their status quo that everyone wanted them to be. And also, in Thor Ragnarok, not once it's shown how much asgardians loves him, they just passing him when entering the ship, and it's clearly shown how much asgardians love Thor. Everyone isn't loving him, they're tolerating his presence. That's it.

And yes, I don't forget when Loki tried to kill Thor and once partially succeed, and I'm not excusing him once. And to be honest, you shouldn't excuse about Thor either. Let's be real, he only thinks he loves his brother, but in fact, that "love" isn't sincere at all, and he's only doing that because he thinks he's a good guy and the hero, while loki is the bad one.

And nah, do you know the reason why Loki rarely shows his true face? Because Thor would probably dismissing it or ignoring it, and that's shown in Thor; ragnarok when he attempt to open himself to Thor in Sakaar's prison, only for Thor to not want to hear it or understand it, and just put all the blame to Loki without guilty at all, thinking that he's always a hero and the only right person in their relationship

And did you even read the analysis that i gave in my links at all?

@Harpie Siren

"There's a lot of TL;DR going on here. But, like, Thor cares deeply about Loki, that is made clear in every MCU movie that features them together"

Thor "cares" deeply about Loki, and his care is very, very limited, and it's actually clear if you watch the movies in some perspective, not on Thor's terms only. Not once Thor cares that deeply about Loki.

@Hjortron 18

"Thor cannot just ignore that, no matter how much he loves Loki."

Also, for addition, he never loves him that much in the first place. And in the dark world, all he's done to loki wasn't opening himself and try to understand him. All he's done is using Loki for his own interest, and in the ship, he's shutting himself from Loki ( didn't want to be blamed by Loki about his mother, didn't want to share grief with him). Those behavior isn't once "opening" or "try to understand", it's a cold treatment. And like I stated, he never once asking him anything like what's his feelings or etc.

@Asherinka

It's disgusting how much your delusional thinking that I and @Killer Beat 72 is the same person. Are you dumb or insane or what? Just because there's some person who agrees with some of my points doesn't mean that it's the same person. If you want to think like that, it's free for you, but that doesn't mean your accusations is right at all.

@Hjortron 18

Maybe I should clear some points again:

1. Thor still doesn't understand loki's main problem ( don't want to be in Thor's shadow, need for validation), and there's no prove that shown if Thor understands that.

2. I perfectly understand the reason why Thor avoid and doesn't want to act that shows his "love" to Loki when he was criminal, but your statement in this isn't relevant to my points at all. And also, I'm not excusing loki's actions, that's not my points or intentions. All I wants to point out is, based on thor's acts to Loki, his "love" isn't that sincere or the martyr level unlike what delusional fans thinking.

3. Also, when you points out that "that wasn't much time". It's a lie. There's enough/plenty of time for Thor to understand loki actually. In the dark world, there's plenty, like when in prison, or when they escape with the ship together in dark world, when in sakaarians prison, or elevator, or when in Thor 1, when Thor confronted Loki, it's all could be the chance for Thor to understand Loki, but Thor never use those chances at all, shutting him down in those chances, continue to avoid loki's perspective, a sign that he never really try to understand him from the start.

For some comparison of other siblings, nebula was also a criminal of xandar when in the start of gotg 2, and actually when there's a chance when they can talk heart-to-heart, gamora take the chance to do it, validating nebula's point of views and willing to change herself for nebula despite being the sibling that has less faults than the other. That's what thor doesn't want to try or do, he doesn't want to validates loki's point of view, and continuously pushing loki to be what Thor thinks loki should be.

4. By the end of ragnarok, the place is pretty much is superior/inferior, light/shadow. The status of king and its right hand man is pretty much is that position. And in the end of ragnarok, people shown that loves/respect to Thor, but neutral to Loki. It's pretty much the same as Thor 1 ( loves/respect to Thor, neutral/indifference to Loki). It's not different.

Do you have a source on that Feige said that Loki was actually injured in TDW? Genuinely asking. I know that Hiddleston said that the death was initially planned to be real. I read the former on reddit too a while back but didn't get to ask the redditor back then for a source, but I did had that head canon myself.

So, about the rest: Yeah I did read the link but its quite a lot to answer every point, so I'm just gonna respond to yours here:

That's true, he doesn't ask, but he doesn't really have to. Loki made it quite clear why, and he doesn't show any remorse towards his mother (which of course doesn't mean that he means it, it could just be a facade), but nevertheless. Also, after his fall, Loki is messed up big time "thanks to" Thanos and like with his mother, I doubt that Loki would sincerely answer to Thor. If he doesn't even trust his mother with that, why should be with Thor.

But Loki never truly wanted to be king. He was hurt because Thor was chosen over him by his father and because he was being lied to his entire life. Loki would take being treated during his upbringing by Odin the same was Odin treated Thor a 1000 times over being a king. Being a king was only a recompense for him, and even that didn't satisfy him because he wasn't allowed to be himself, he was ended up being totally bored. And considering that Loki usurped the throne, basically committing treason and no one has a problem with that anymore because Loki did something to redeem himself, I think it's safe to say that he got back in everyone's good graces, quite rightly. Even Heimdall is happy and grateful that he's back with help.

Come on, that's really uncalled for, of course Thor is far from perfect and not exactly emotionally sensitive, but that doesn't mean that his love isn't sincere, why would he think that he loves his brother if he doesn't actually? Yeah, the "martyr-level-love" statement is exaggerated, but I think the biggest proof for his love is really that despite all his crimes, Thor eventually always forgives Loki, and why should he if he doesn't believe that there's still good in Loki, and why should believe that if he doesn't, to some extent, understand his motivations and that Loki isn't truly evil at heart?

That was a very unfortunate situation and I don't think it would be like that every time Loki tried to talk to Thor; from Thor's perspective, Thor got basically enslaved after losing his dad and finding out that he was lied to by his father, and then his brother refused to help him out... Loki had his reasons, yeah, he was there for several weeks and knows how the place works, but Thor is having a toned down crisis that I don't even exactly want to compare to Loki's in Thor 1, but it is what makes him snap when Loki tries to talk to him and offers his help. And Loki himself is a bit involuntary insensitive here, for him, it has been several weeks of time to get over his father's death and deciding for himself that it is futile to attempt to stop Hela, so when he offers that to Thor, for whom this all is still very much fresh, it comes across the wrong way. Thor does later attempt to open up to Loki again ("Listen, we should talk."), but yeah, "Open communication was never our family's forte" could really be the life motto of the Asgardian royal family, if it isn't already.

I rather meant that there wasn't much time to address all that and to talk all of that out, both in-universe and out-universe. One thing, I have to admit, that kinda bugs me with TDW (among others) is that in interviews Hemsworth and Hiddleston talked about a scene (which was apparently included in the sequence where Thor&Loki fly through Svartalfheim) where the two apparently do talk with each other more (I recall Hemsworth saying that Thor addresses Loki's "not-my-fault"-farce, but also admits that Thor himself was at fault) and that's a shame that it didn't make it into the movie, yeah...

@Hjortron 18

"Do you have a source on that Feige said that Loki was actually injured in TDW? Genuinely asking. I know that Hiddleston said that the death was initially planned to be real. I read the former on reddit too a while back but didn't get to ask the redditor back then for a source, but I did had that head canon myself."

Yes, the source is in "official explanation of loki's death in dark world" video. This is what Kevin Feige said: "We think he's wounded, but it wasn't a death blow for the powerful asgardian", which implied that he's probably really injured at that time, but he's not die yet.

“But Loki never truly wanted to be king. He was hurt because Thor was chosen over him by his father and because he was being lied to his entire life. Loki would take being treated during his upbringing by Odin the same was Odin treated Thor a 1000 times over being a king. Being a king was only a recompense for him, and even that didn't satisfy him because he wasn't allowed to be himself, he was ended up being totally bored. And considering that Loki usurped the throne, basically committing treason and no one has a problem with that anymore because Loki did something to redeem himself, I think it's safe to say that he got back in everyone's good graces, quite rightly. Even Heimdall is happy and grateful that he's back with help.”

Regarding Asgardians’s reactions and manners to Loki: The reason why Loki hasn’t been in prison yet is because the situation making it kinda hard and those asgardians are in the brink of death, and the second reason is because loki is also played key part in the safety of them, so they’re kind of ignoring his treason.

So the conclusion of this part is that asgardians mostly neutral to him, not loving or validating him like what the writers of this tropes wrote in loki’s page. As for the king part, I never said that Loki’s inner desire to be king, and yes, Loki’s inner desire isn’t to be king. But in the end of ragnarok, their relationship is still superior/inferior one, because of reasons:

1. Their relationship only validated by Thor’s terms. If Thor thinks that their relationship is already reconciled, then it’s already reconciled.

2. Loki still needs to be validated by Thor to be a good guy, remember thor’s words “you’re not so bad after all brother”. If loki’s the one who declare himself as right, it’s not valid and doesn’t matter (whether his status, both as prince and as criminal or king). But if thor already approve, then it’s valid.

To sums, in loki and thor’s relationship, Thor’s opinion and approval is the one that matters, why loki doesn’t have the right, and it’s the basic of superior/inferior relationship. And that’s what sums up the big part of their relationship, and by the end of Thor ragnarok, those things still never change.

In fact, your statement right here is proving this point of mine even further and this part is what I criticism heavily:

“Come on, that's really uncalled for, of course Thor is far from perfect and not exactly emotionally sensitive, but that doesn't mean that his love isn't sincere, why would he think that he loves his brother if he doesn't actually? Yeah, the "martyr-level-love" statement is exaggerated, but I think the biggest proof for his love is really that despite all his crimes, Thor eventually always forgives Loki, and why should he if he doesn't believe that there's still good in Loki, and why should believe that if he doesn't, to some extent, understand his motivations and that Loki isn't truly evil at heart?”

Thor thinks that he’s the one who always should decide to forgive loki, he thinks he has the right to decide it, Thor thinks that he get to decided whether there’s still “good” in loki or not, and he thinks he has the right to decide the “bad” and “good” in loki, he thinks he needs to validates loki’s kind/good guy/kindness or evil/bad guy/evilness without thinking that loki also get the right to validate himself or their relationship, or once respect/acknowledge loki and his decision as a person/individual without the need to be validated or patronized by Thor’s way of thinking etc. This kind of behavior is what I called as “superiority” in relationship, and also, too self-centric to be “sincere love”. It’s more like delusion love Thor thinks he has, but actually doesn’t have it in his heart. That’s why thor “love” for loki is never that big or sincere.

@Hjortron 18

Anyway for some irrelevant topic to the above, the remark of "despite all his crimes, Thor eventually always forgives Loki" is kinda ridiculous. So, Thor "doesn't" have a crime and that's why he can judging loki's mercy for his crimes. Oh and hey, remember the first movie about his confrontation with Jotun, and the punishment he get was a three-day vacation with an earth girl. Talks about light punishment and heavy punishment.

Jesus, the Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater is strong here.

@Divergent Infant

I honestly doubt that we can come to an agreement here, on some things I can see where you come from, but I still just don't agree at all that Thor doesn't love Loki.

But yeah, thanks for the source on what Kevin Feige said!

@Larkmarn

Nah, not really that reaching.

I never justifying Loki's actions towards earth people in avengers, and I don't intended to. He deserves heavy punishment from his own actions. And also, loki's actions towards Thor is downright bad either.

As for Thor, I don't ever classified him as a jerk or a bad person, because he's far from that actually. So, the tropes "Ron the death eater" isn't that much applied here.

My objective here isn't to painting loki in light or painting thor as bad person. I'm just raises some points about loki and thor's color of relationship ( which I viewed in gray scale of perspective) that people are mostly ignorant or unaware of it and really trying to give Thor too much credits in the first place for something that he's not.

@Hjortron 18

Well, you can have your own opinion and I can have mine. I think we both can agree with this part.

As for the source, you're welcome too.

The discussion has been going on for quite a while, and the majority of those who replied believe that Thor deeply cares about his brother, and even those who argue against it agree that it is the general opinion of the fans. Since main pages and their sub-pages (i.e. Character Sheets) are designed to reflect the general opinion, per discussion such statements should not be deleted, although the text can still be reworded, amended or toned down if necessary.

@Divergent Infant I asked the moderators to look into the issue with accounts. If I am wrong, you have my sincere apologies.

Divergant Infant, you seem intent on pushing your (quite biased) interpretation of their relationship in lieu of how it's actually presented. You don't like Thor. That's fine. But claiming that he doesn't actually love his brother and instead only condescends to him as an inferior is categorically not what's presented in any of the movies.

@Larkmarn

Ok, so I reply you with my new account since the other one got suspended.

"But claiming that he doesn't actually love his brother and instead only condescends to him as an inferior is categorically not what's presented in any of the movies."

I never do "claiming", I only presented of what their true relationship ran under actually, because people often never noticed subtle things presented with between two characters's relationship.

If you're saying that it's not what's presented in any of the movies, then you're clearly not paying attention that much, and you only watched what's on the surface of the movie. Because if you watched any movies involving them both without attaching your judgement to the hero's perspective/judgement first ( in this case, Thor), you can quite see that he's unintentionally downplaying his brother and yes, unconsciously condescends/treating him as inferior one between them both. It's what presented in subtle, if you bothered to analyze the behaviors under that lovey-dovey surface of relationship.

To be honest, you seem intent to pushing your equally biased interpretation of thor/loki's relationship, in lieu of how it's actually presented. Just for some facts, there's no such things as "actual presented". We all as viewers interpret the movie in our own ways. But yes, there's the term of majority/minority opinions due to human's personality difference, not because the minority is wrong/right or the majority is the one who is wrong/right.

Seriously, just stop. Breaking site rules aside, long rants with poor grammar aren't going to convince anyone.

@Larkmarn

Dude, I already stop my editing days ago, and I haven't yet broken any rules since then.

Anyway, my goal isn't to convince anyone, so you're making a fool out of yourself. Your own arguments aren't even convincing or strong enough from the start.

Well, yes, you have in fact broken the rules by making a new account after being suspended first. The right place to appeal a ban is here. Banned again.