I've added Evil Brit to Magni & Modi because of their British accents.
This page and relevant individual pages claim Tyr and Heimdall are sons of Odin, siblings to Thor, etc. So does the fandom wiki of the Go W games.
While I am aware both are sometimes called sons of Odin in norse mythology (just like Mimir is sometimes described as Odin's uncle) and do not wish to argue that, is that actually the case in the games? Is there any lore markers, conversation, etc, or even developer interviews where either are identified as sons of Odin? Heimdall is only called a close ally, and you'd think Kratos killing yet another son of Odin would bear mentioning. Also Tyr would probably refer to Odin at least once.
If there isn't any, references to those familial relationships should probably be removed.
Could we add Troll to Heimdall since he’s a complete asshole and extremely arrogant.
So I have some issues regarding the Our Gods Are Different entry
It brings forward this idea that the Greek Gods were more powerful than the Norse ones, and that this is because Odin is monopolising all worship in the realms. This idea has even begun to spread to other trope entries, such as Thor's Extreme Doormat trope, where it now states that everyone sees Thor as a mere extension of Odin and therefore all the of their faith goes to Odin instead of Thor.
Near as I can tell all of these ideas are unsubstantiated headcanon. There is never any indication that Odin is denying other Aesir of recognition and faith, as they are all widely recognized and worshipped gods with their own stories, legends and temples. Tyr's Temple being a regularly visited location should easily demonstrate that the idea that none of the Aesir are worshipped besides Odin is just flat out wrong.
Thor isnt widely seen as a mere extension of Odin, in fact the common perception of him that most have, and the one Mimir expounds on, is that his nature as a destructive slayer of giants is entirely is all him. He does have reverent followers, as shown by depictions honoring him, and that time he showed up in the home of one of his worshippers and got drunk.
I also have issues with the idea that the Greek Gods are actually just straight up more powerful than their Norse counterparts. I assume a lot of this idea comes from the fact that the more recent God of War games just focus less on sheer spectacle than the previous ones
There are plenty of beings that are absolutely presented as at least comparable in power to the Greek Gods. Laufey and Thor tore apart an entire inhabited valley just as collateral damage when they fought each other. Ragnarok destroys the entire realm of Asgard, and Freyr is capable of actually holding him back for bit. Garm is an Animalistic Abomination that can chew through the fabric of reality itself, something that is implied to be capable of far more damage than merely opening pathways ("Hel walkers are only the beginning"). Thor hits Jormangandr so damn hard it shatters Yggdrasil and breaks time and space, plowing him from Asgard in the present all the way to Midgard in the far past. Odin is explicitly stated by developer notes to be the most powerful adversary Kratos has ever fought, explicitly stronger than anyone in the Greek Pantheon.
Mimir's curiousity about the power of the Greek Gods is presented more as an explanation for Kratos's latest Bag of Spilling, as he says he heard that the Greek Gods had all sorts of powers and wonders asks if Kratos could conjure some of them. To which Kratos replies that he's tried before, but he can't. Atreus then talks about how Freya explained that magic is bound to the earth, so when Greece fell so did its native magic.
Edited by CrimsonOddball Hide / Show Replies
There is one example from God of War: Ragnarok. When Kratos tells Mimir and Freya about the time he used the Greek Fates to travel into the past and win a battle he'd previously lost, they state that the Norns don't possess anywhere near that kind of power and if they did Odin would've seized it for himself.
Edited by Arawn999
That nonetheless feels like a case of the Greek and Norse gods having different powers rather than case of clear cut superiority
Because it is true that the Norse Pantheon doesn't have a controlled way to travel back in time.
But I can just as easily note that nobody in the Greek Pantheon ever just straight up hit anyone hard enough to break time and space, punting their opponent into the past.
Not to mention the time travel thing was specific to the Sisters of Fate. Not some Pantheon wide ace in the hole that proves they were more powerful.
Now I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to start a measuring contest between the Greek and Norse Pantheons here, because these are the sort of things that cannot be measured. There's no calculation that will tell you how hard exactly Thor had to smack Jormungandr for that to happen, beyond really hard. We aren't going to have any success measuring Thor in terms of how many fractions of a Goku, or hexa-Yamcha's he's equivalent to.
This isn't a VS debate and I don't think that sort of discussion is very productive in general.
The point is that people have started spreading the idea that one Pantheon is "stronger" or "better" than the other, and I don't think there's any hard actual evidence to back this idea. So we shouldn't write tropes touting the idea as fact when it isn't.
So I've removed all the bits that try to state the relative strength of the two Pantheons from the page
Edited by CrimsonOddball
Plus there's also just flat out wrong information that's being introduced as a result of this.
Like this idea that's starting to take root that Odin's the only worshipped God in the entire pantheon. Which is demonstrably false.
Actually has there ever even been any indication at all in the God of War Universe that Gods Need Prayer Badly is even in effect? This is a genuine question. Is there any actual evidence that Gods derive power from worship, as opposed to simply being worshipped because they are powerful?
Edited by CrimsonOddball
The closest thing I've seen to that is Odin levelling a Pretender Diss at Kratos, saying he's not a "real" god since he's never been worshipped or prayed to by mortals.
Do you have a link to the dev notes that say Odin is Kratos strongest opponent yet? I've been trying to find it myself but havent managed to yet
Edited by chrome3
Would it be correct to call the Norse Gods Weak But Skilled in comparison to the Greeks ones? They havent really shown any of the same feats of power the Greeks have shown but they also appear to be more skilled fighters than them
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Possibly. In the Greek games, Kratos held nothing back but still needed assistance in some form to kill the Olympians. Contrast that with the Norse series where Kratos is explicitly holding back his full power yet he's killing Aesir on his own.
However, Cory Balrog said that, as an Olympian, Kratos has gotten stronger with age. What we don't know is how much stronger Kratos has become. If his current restrained power is less than or equal to his old maximum power, than the Aesir are weaker than the Olympians. But if Kratos is hitter harder than before despite holding back, than the Aesir are stronger.
I AM KING OF THE BEACH!!
Can we put Mimir in the Other Characters page? He doesn’t seem to be affiliated with the gods. Maybe put him with Kratos and Atreus?
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Well, it seems like the main question is 'Is he a Norse God'? If he is, then the page for Norse Gods feels like where he should be.
Being located at the top of the food chain does not make one a superior species
I think it may be a good idea to split Tyr off onto his own page now. While page length may not be a concern, he's about a third of this page's size now, and it would be easier to sort his tropes into "general", "main quest" and "post-game/Valhalla DLC" folders for the sake of covering him properly while avoiding spoilers
Edited by DrakeClawfang