Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
I feel like the Ascian's need to remain here, but everyone not one should be moved to their own page. Some of the entries on here are for the Ancients specifically.
Muramasa got. Hide / Show Replies
I feel like Venat's folder should be combined with Hydaelyn's folder from the Allies page and given her own page. They're literally two incarnations of the same character, after all.
The Danse Macabre Codex
I thought some like Emet-Selch gotten their own pages because they have so many tropes affiliated with them that it would clog up the main page.
Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
I mostly mean that Ancients who aren't Ascians should be moved.
Muramasa got.
I'm seeing quite a few "Elidibus is Themis" related tropes in Elidibus' section. I mean, sure, I'm guessing this falls under "it's transparently obvious and it's only a matter of time before it's officially confirmed."
But has the game or Word of God actually confirmed this yet? Unless I'm mistaken, this is technically speculation despite it being incredibly likely.
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Technically speculation, as it is not confirmed yet... but everyone would be seriously caught off guard if they aren't one and the same, as everything (height, dialogues, and VA too I think) points out to them being the same person.
So, technically, it's speculation and shouldn't be troped, or if troped it should mention that the game is heavily implying it until it is confirmed (though it would fall under the "Examples Are Not Recent" problem).
Seriously, if they are different persons, everyone would be flabbergasted.
Edited by NonoRobot
Too be fair, it is completely possible for a writer to set up an incredibly obvious inference only to reveal that the truth is something else.
Edited by wingedcatgirl Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
I agree this seems a little premature to automatically assume Themis is Elidibus. Hell, there's a decent amount of foreshadowing that Themis is a younger Lahabrea.
My entry for Hermes being a Hypocrite was deleted without a reason being given. I PM'd the troper asking about it, but got no response. Anyone have a problem with me adding it back, or does anyone think that entry was stretching/untrue?
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Pretty sure examples only count if it's an intentional character trait, not just Fridge Logic.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
So, when I went to edit recently, there was a notice that the page was getting too long. Which means it's time to start splitting it into subpages. Some ideas:
1) An "Ancients" section. All Ascians are Ancients but not all Ancients became Ascians and whatnot. Plus it would make the General folder a little cleaner since Ancient-specific stuff would go on their page.
2) An "Ascian Allies" section. Admittedly half the folders there would just redirect to other pages...
3) Emet's folder is almost certainly long enough for him to have his own page, right?
Thoughts?
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I'm in favor of giving the Ancients their own page.
The Danse Macabre Codex
+1 to both splitting "Ancients" from "Ascians" and giving Emet his own page (his folder comes to nearly 80k characters, which would be twice the recommended minimum on Character-Specific Pages)
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
There is little doubt that Emet deserves/needs his own page at this point.
Edited by NonoRobot
A resounding yes for Emet, then! I’ll get on that once I’m off of work. As for the Ancients, maybe that should be held off? There doesn't seem to be any opposition for it but also not a lot of consensus that it's necessary.
Edited by Apocrypha
They don't really belong on the same page as the Ascians as Cast Herd but if the page isn't too big anymore then there probably isn't too much harm leaving them here.
For Venat, I would propose slapping down an Unmarked Spoiler warning for her role in Endwalker, otherwise she'd read like a heavily redacted CIA file.
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I propose to divide (or if you will, sunder) the examples that relate to Fandaniel and to Hermes, as they are effectively different characters. Hermes should be added to the "Other Ancients" section, and all related tropes moved to it.
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I think it would be fine to have sections for tropes relating Ancient Fandaniel, Current Fandaniel, and both under the folder.
Well, Hermes and Amon are noticably different, especially as the latter is the antithesis of the former. I would concur with yours or miscellani's proposal.
Edited by NonoRobot
Late to the party, but I support giving Hermes his own folder. He is a different enough character in personality and role that I think it's easiest to cover him separately.
Should we split this page or else rename it? At this point, about half the entries aren't actually Ascians (point for renaming) and many aren't even villains (point for splitting).
I think we should just remove all spoilers on Emet-Selch's page, due to being so tied to the entire story.
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Perhaps we should consider making Azem's folder all spoilers unmarked, too?
Edit: I didn't mean to post this as a reply, but it's not unfitting here.
Edited by Perseus Trans rights are human rights.
People's read of Hermes and the Ancients seems off because fundamentally, if you do the sidequests, the ancients present show a great deal of interest in and compassion for non-Ancient life. They get emotionally involved in your welfare even though you're just a familiar as far as they know, they care for and mourn their dead prototypes and try to improve them rather than recall them.
Hermes is just morbidly depressed.
By the same token, Venat's argument is less "being as powerful as the ancients is bad" as it is a resigned recognition that the survivors of Amaurot are refusing to accept a path forward that doesn't involve reversion, due to their trauma.
Is Elidibus supposed to be naturally short or is it because he was stuck by the tower? If it's the latter then how does that work?
Edited by magus123 Hide / Show Replies
As far as we know, Elidibus is supposed to be a kid. So... yeah.
EDIT: Oh wait, apparently people disagree on that.
Edited by NonoRobot
^ We'd rather not have that whole debacle again lmao.
We arrived at the compromise he's supposed to be a Vague Age and YMMV.
I don't think the Amano artwork of Zodiark is totally accurate to its in-game appearance. With that in consideration, which would be a better image for his folder? The Dark Crystal form (https://i.imgur.com/im47nJR.png)){kind=small}
or the statue? Of course, untill a proper appearance.
I really hope this arguement about Elidibus' age has died down for good, because if not, I will invoke Occam's Razor and cut out anything that has to do with age and Elidibus, and will only mention his small stature.
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Speaking as someone who isn't particularly invested in the "how old is Elidibus" arguments, couldn't we just throw in a Vague Age entry? Point out that 17-ish Alphinaud is still called "shounen", that Elidibus is addressed as "seinen", and that he's the youngest of the Convocation. Wrap it up with something like "all of this suggests he's in his early adulthood, late teens at youngest, but specifics are not given".
Hopefully that would end the debates once and for all.
Could work, but I'm not gonna get involved with this as long as I can.
I feel like we're dealing with the same actors on the Final Fantasy wiki having inane arguments regarding the semantics of "seinen." It's stupid.
Something really has to be done otherwise the whole page is gonna get locked for edit wars.
Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
Half-dead and starving man
On Elidibus age, it's time for clarifications to cloture the matter.
First, the angle during his flash backs seems to be oriented specifically for framing purpose. The two ancients look at him in the eye as well, they don't even slouch down at all.
For his hands, they don't seem that small, and even if they were, it could be because they're using *that* model.
His voice is that of an adult, and it stays that way. And yes Alphinaus and Alisaie are treated as our equals, but they are not children. Teenagers, but of adult age in Sharlayan (both said by Alphinaud and in the lorebook).
Elidibus' current size can also easily be explained by all the energy it took him to do his duty, and losing more and more of himself after changing into a primal + being reckt by basically the biggest Auracite known.
This could continue for ages, but please take all of this in consideration, and I'm not even counting other points that have been analyzed by other people over this matter.
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Okay. As a counterargument, let me present this Tumblr post
, which is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to be.
Please post both your links and ensure they work.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
I've double-checked the link and it's fine. It may be the site having a problem, not me.
Here it is in plain text, though: https://shadowmeowth.tumblr.com/post/626527094487351296/
Edited by Perseus Trans rights are human rights.
I'm too tired to continue this, so I'm just gonna wait to see if the devs address this in an interview, or if the coming Tales from the Shadows clarifies the confusion.
Just one thing about a certain line in English however, "I would become Him" refers to Zodiark, not Azem. This is clearer in jp and fr, where he outright says "I thought that if I became Zodiark...etc". We don't know yet what he thought of Azem, though it's likely that like with the rest of the Convocation, it was affectionate.
Seinin as a term refers to a male who is not fully grown adult. The Tales from the Shadows is very clear on the matter that Elidibus is not an adult man but a precocious youth in a position of power unbecoming of his age.
This itself is a deliberate homage to Final Fantasy XII where the esper Zodiark which Elidibus is the patron of, was cursed to forever remain as a child.
Edited by lycropath
The Wikipedia page (JP) on 壮年, or prime of life, notes that Japan's Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare defines "shounen" from ages 6 to 14 and "seinen" from 15 to 30. (I had a link but it doesn't work.)
If anything, this suggests Elidibus was a teenager at most, and certainly not a fully grown adult.
Edited by RedSavant It's been fun.
Team Rocket Boss.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows
The latest tales from the shadow confirms that Elidibus was a youth compared to everyone else in the Convocation.
Edited by RedHunter543 I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult. Hide / Show Replies
With all the confusion over youth, young man, and such, it seems this topic has become more confusing, not less.
Like Elidibus is still the youngest of all the convocation but uses vague language.
It's like the Devs kept it vague as to not bump up the rating if Elidibus was a kid when he was sacrificed.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Elidibus' page is way, waaay too filled with spoilers. While I don't think spoilers relating to 5.3 should be unredacted yet, spoilers from Stormblood should be, just to make it slightly more readable.
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I've removed many of the Stormblood spoilers from his folder, or at least as many of them as I could find.
The Danse Macabre Codex
Thinking of removing the spoilers tags for Emet-Selch due to who big of a spoiler he is.
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Agreed, though the 5.3 spoiler tags (due to how recent the patch is) should maybe remain.
I've cleared most of the spoiler tags out of Emet-Selch's folder. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to trim some of his excessively long trope entries.
The Danse Macabre Codex
Proposal: Have Elidibus have his own page, and split his current self, Themis, and the Warrior of Light primal as different folders within the same page. They're still the same character, just different versions, so it doesn't really make sense for them to be spread in different pages like this.
Edited by Makir