Discussion Characters / BleachVandenreich

I agree. Vandenreich is a translation error that should've been fixed a long time ago

Edited by ZeromusPrime

So...what's the best way to go about changing this? XD Nobody actually seems to check these discussion pages, and I just know there's someone out there lurking, waiting to instantly revert any change I attempt so I'm too nervous to even try lol.

Take it to ATT, I guess. If you get the OK there, you can move the page from Characters / Bleach: Vandenreich to Characters / Bleach: Wandenreich.

Now even Brave Souls has corrected it to Wandenreich. There's now literally no media that uses the incorrect "Vandenreich" spelling. This really should be changed

They don't meet the 40,000 byte criteria for Character-Specific Pages.

Edited by RinneSharinganCatalyst Over 900 years, he shall recover his heartbeat. Over 90 years, he shall recover his intellect. Over 9 years, he shall recover his power.

No. The role of a Dragon isn't defined by loyalty (some dragons are, some have their own agenda). Lille wasn't a Dragon. Haschwalth is the only Dragon: he's got the close personal relationship, the Foil aspect, and acts as the face of the Big Bad in his absence.

Lille's role in the manga is nowhere near this level.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Okay I’m just curious. But can do the foil trope of both Lille and Jugram?

Apologies, I'm not sure what you're asking. Would you mind clarifying?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I mean you said that Lille and Jugram are more like the foil to each other. So can we add the foil to Lille and Jugram.

No, I said that Haschwalth is a foil for Yhwach.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Oh I probably misread you comment

Anyone even alive in here?

Yup lol, this is very dead.

And how do you even want to know that it is a mistake? By that logic everything could be a mistake. And mistakes almost always get corrected in the volume and the fourth person can only be Askin. Nel talked about four Reiatsu inside the Giftball. Yuushiro couldn't be it, because we saw him knocked out cold outside the Giftball on an entire different platform. There are only four characters inside the Giftball: Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow and Askin.

Again, what exactly of that was an assumption? Who else could that fourth person be, if not Askin? And what makes the sentence being a typo or mistake even after it was released in the volume, not a bigger assumption?

Edited by bandersnitch

We don't know it's a mistake. We don't know it isn't. We don't know who it "could be". We don't know who it "couldn't" be. That's the point. We know nothing.

Trying to deduce an answer is not what troping is for, simply admitting that we don't know and leaving it at that is (in my opinion) the best course of action. At the very least, the part about Nel saving him and Yhwach's Auschwalen is utterly pointless.

Edited by KingZeal

But we know things. We know that there are only four people inside the Giftball. And we know that one of them is Askin. And we know that the four people inside the Giftball were alive. Those are all things that have been shown or stated.

I don't see how any of this could be an assumption. And that it could be a mistake is most certainly an assumption. Why do you even believe it could be a mistake in the first place. If we go by the logic that it could be a mistake, then everything could be changed. Who says that Ichigo's son is really called Kazui then? It could also be a mistake.

And Nel saving him and Yhwach using Auswahlen are the reason this is Uncertain Doom to begin with. Askin was last stated to be alive and Nel was going to save everyone inside the Giftball, including him. Her possible inability to do so or Yhwach using the Auswahlen are what make Askin's fate uncertain.

No, we don't know any of that due to the ambiguous circumstances of the writing. The Uncertain Doom is Nel's statement, and her statement alone. We do not know if what she said verifies Askin's survival, because he is not directly mentioned. We know Askin was given a mortal wound by Grimmjow — or at least, a wound that under normal conditions would be mortal. Because of that, Nel's statement becomes ambiguous.

Nel's statement about "four signatures" doesn't give an absolute statement that Askin survived. For all we know, someone we didn't see was in there. For all we know, someone entered it after the scene ended. For all we know, she miscounted. Since Askin was not directly referred to, his status is ambiguous.

There isn't much that is ambigous about that. There is no one else in that area. There are only four persons. Only four persons have been shown. If you think that the fourth person being Askin is an assumption, than there being someone else besides Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow and Askin is an even bigger assumption. Because there is nothing that even indicates that there is someone else.

Askin was last seen talking even while lacking a heart. We only saw four people inside the Giftball. Nel sensed four different Reiatsu. The logical conclusion is that Askin is the fourth person and that someone like Nel would not make a mistake of miscounting Reiatsu. Everything else is based upon even bigger assumption.

This is Occam's Razor.

Edited by bandersnitch

No it's a misuse of Occam's Razor. Occams Razor doesn't work if you don't have all the information, and we dont.

Again, we're not supposed to trope "logical conclusions". We trope what the story gives us and nothing more. My point isn't that there IS some unknown fourth party in the Gift Ball but that Nel's statement doesn't give us information to come to any conclusions at all.

Saying "we don't know, therefore anything is possible" isn't making an assumption. It's the exact opposite in fact.

Edited by KingZeal

We have all the information. Nel sensed four people inside the Giftball. And we know that there are four people, Askin, Urahara, Yoruichi and Grimmjow. This means Nel sensed Askin. There is nothing ambiguous about that.

And what you stated is an assumption. It's like saying Ukitake's Bankai allows him to summon a giant wave, is not an assumption, just because we never saw it and therefore anything could be possible.

Okay we're going around in circles. I'm gonna wait til someone else pitches in or take it to Ask The Tropers.

Edited by KingZeal

I've seen this debate crop up in a few places, so I don't think the fandom in general knows which way to swing on whether the fourth reiatsu is Askin or Yuushiro. That's just my experience, mind. It occurs to me, however, that we can make this confusion work for us in the example given the nature of the trope. What you both think of this as a compromise option? Feel free to help narrow it down, I can sometimes go on a bit in example write-ups.

• Uncertain Doom: Askin's final battle occurs against a succession of opponents, each of whom intervenes as the previous fighter is defeated, until Grimmjow ambushes and apparently kills him. When Nel decides to enter Askin's still-active Poison Giftball to rescue the fallen, she can sense four reiatsu still alive. However, there were five people on the battlefield: Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow, Yuushiro and Askin. The story never confirms which four Nel detected, whether the rescue attempt succeeded, or the final fate of the fifth.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

That looks great, IMO.

It's most certainly not Yuushiro. You can see that Yuushiro was last seen on the center platform in front of the main castle. He was lying there defeated and unable to move. We know that it is the center platform, because Askin, who was about five meters away from him was almost crushed by the falling debris that resulted from the fight of Chad against the statues.

A few moments later Urahara appears and drugs Yoruichi into her beast form. She then chases Askin, while Urahara is following them, across Wahrwelt. By the time Askin activates Giftball deluxe the three are now in the middle of the road that connects the center platform with one of the other five, a location far away from where Yuushiro was last seen. And given his condition it is unlikely he was able to move much.

The fourth person can thus only be Askin, as no one else is there. This was more or less the end stage of the Wahrwelt invasion. Everyone else was either defeated or in the center platform fighting Gerard.

And seeing how he still talked without a heart it isn't that far fetched that Askin was still alive.

Like I said, plenty of people in the fandom have debates about which four were alive inside the Giftball, and whether or not the fifth person was 'dead inside the Giftball', 'dead outside the Giftball' or 'alive outside the Giftball'. It's clearly not considered a cut-and-dried scene as a result.

You're in the camp that believes Askin survived and Yuushiro was not inside the Giftball. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with interpreting the scene like that. However, that's what it is - an interpretation, not a fact.

I'm not saying whether your opinion is right or wrong. I'm just saying we can't trope personal interpretations, and the compromise between people who think Askin's alive and those who think he's dead is to simply point out that the manga never confirms it one way or another. That's the point of giving him the trope, after all.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Sorry, but what exactly about that is an interpretation? Or what is even the argument for Yuushiro being inside the Giftball? Because the manga didn't really leave much room for interpretation as Yuushiro's location had been clearly shown to be the center platform. And the Giftball had clearly been shown to be in a location that is not the center platform. So my question is what exactly about the location of Yuushiro is questionable or open for interpretation? The Uncertain Doom wasn't about whether or not Askin was the fourth person, but rather about whether or not Nel was able to save him (like the rest inside) and whether or not Askin was killed by the second Auswahlen.

I would have no problem with the compromise, but so far I genuinely can't see what the basis for Yuushiro being inside the Giftball is.

Edited by bandersnitch

And for a lot of the fandom it's also about whether or not Askin is the fourth person. Just because you don't like the theory it doesn't change the fact it exists and is part of the fandom's range of questions about how to interpret the fight.

For the record, I actually don't think Yuushiro was inside the Giftball, but that's irrelevant to the fact that it's an interpretation and that plenty of fans disagree with that interpretation.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

This wasn't my problem. I didn't say Askin was the fourth person, just because there could be a chance or because I wanted Askin to the fourth person, but rather I saw evidence in the manga that stated that Yuushiro was not inside the Giftball. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have troped the entry with Uncertain Doom to begin with. And people would probably have a hard time accepting Askin being under Uncertain Doom if it wasn't for said evidence.

So I wonder why Askin would need evidence to be the fourth person, but Yuushiro not? I've no problem with others interpreting it to be Yuushiro, but even an interpretation should have some foundation. Because so far I've only heard the statement that Yuushiro is the fourth person, but without ever explaining why. I mean we can't just state that Yuushiro is the fourth person without any evidence otherwise we could just state for example that Rangiku may have been the fourth person.

So I would like to know why people are interpreting it like that and what the basis for that is. I mean I did the same for why I think that Askin is the fourth person.

So basically, once you or someone can give me some evidence or arguments for the fourth person being Yuushiro, I will be quiet.

Edited by bandersnitch

We're not stating anyone was in. the giftball. That's the point. You're the one saying Askin was in it and alive. and no evidence anyone provides conclusively prove anything because we don't trope "logical conclusions ", as I said.

I highly doubt that we can just willy-nilly trope things without some evidence as for why the trope is in play.

We can't just state that X is the fourth person without at least showing some evidence as to why said person might be considered. Otherwise I could just interpret Ichigo as the fourth person, even though he is clearly in the castle. That can't be it either.

Edited by bandersnitch

Again, the point is that we will not state ANYONE is the fourth person. We will trope exactly what the story shows us, and that's all.

You just do not seem to get that.

Edited by KingZeal

The new proposed entry states this:

"However, there were five people on the battlefield: Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow, Yuushiro and Askin. The story never confirms which four Nel detected, whether the rescue attempt succeeded, or the final fate of the fifth."

It states that Yuushiro might be on the battle field. I simply ask for some evidence that leads to such believe. As for why people would believe it in the first place.

And so far the story showed us that that Nel detected four people and that she wants to save all four. It showed us that Yuushiro was not in the Giftball (unless I see some evidence/scene that shows that Yuushiro might be on the battlefield). It showed us that Askin is in the Giftball and it showed us that no one else besides him, Grimmjow, Nel and Urahara were inside the Giftball. The story did not show us if Nel was able to save them and it showed that Yhwach used the Auswahlen on the remaining Sternritter with power.

That's all I stated and simply explained why these make Askin qualify for Uncertain Doom.

You still do not get it. The proposed entry does not state that Yuuichi is in the Gift Ball. In fact, it doesn't even say he's still on the battefield. It says he was on the battlefield, which is a factually true statement because he fought in the battle. The Gift Ball and the battlefield are not the same thing.

You keep asking for evidence that doesn't exist. Even your "evidence" is nothing but a logical conclusion—which, I will say for the last time, we're not supposed to trope.

That's it. I'm done.

Edited by KingZeal

But this is about the Giftball. Since they are not the same, I don't see why Yuushiro being on the battlefield should be relevant for Yuushiro being in the Giftball. We know that there are four people inside it, one of them being Askin, and we know that Nel sensed four people. If you say there is no evidence to suggest that anyone else besides Urahara, Askin, Yoruichi and Grimmjow, then there is also no reason to assume so or state the possibility.

This is hardly a logical conclusion, which I never heard about not being supposed to be troped, anyway.

And those four not being the four that Nel sensed would be imo a disregard of Occam's Razor.

Just to clarify why I worded the suggested entry as I did. I deliberately chose the word 'battlefield' because we know, in that area, a fight occurred involving Askin, Yoruichi, Yuushiro, Urahara and Grimmjow. The Giftball was on the battlefield. It was not the battlefield.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

The previous suggestion

• Uncertain Doom: Askin's final battle occurs against a succession of opponents, each of whom intervenes as the previous fighter is defeated, until Grimmjow ambushes and apparently kills him. When Nel decides to enter Askin's still-active Poison Giftball to rescue the fallen, she can sense four reiatsu still alive. However, there were five people on the battlefield: Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow, Yuushiro and Askin. The story never confirms which four Nel detected, whether the rescue attempt succeeded, or the final fate of the fifth.

Seems reasonable to me. If any of the characters from the start of the battle are shown after this event, it needs to be added to the example. The fact that the giftball is something from Askin suggests but does not confirm that they're still alive.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yeah, none of the five are ever mentioned again in the story, so Nel's decision to enter the Giftball after mentioning she can sense four reiatsu is the last thing we ever see. Not only do we not know for certain which four reiatsu she was picking up, we don't even know if she succeeded in rescuing them or succumbed to the poison as well.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Actually the novel, which is quite likely going to be canon because Kubo gave it full supervision, showed that Yoruichi (but no word on the rest) is alive. The novel comes out in ten days. So maybe we should keep it as it is for now and change it, depending on the new information from the novel.

Meh, I already went and changed it lol. It's been made pretty clear that you guys are sticking to "Vandenreich" period. As such it needs to be more consistent.

I'm not really *that* interesting... Or a car salesman, for that matter.

I think the reason people stuck with Vandenreich was because people couldn't come to an agreement over whether it was Wandenreich or Vandenreich. So they simply took the Viz version Vandenreich, which actually is more correct than the orginal term Wandenreich. But Vollsterndich is completely wrong. Everyone knows that's supposed to be Vollständig. Vollständig is an actual german word, while Vollsterndich is complete gibberisch. And as far as I know, the Viz version did eventually change to Vollständig.

So I would say that it should go back to Vollständig again.

Edited by bandersnitch

Viz is still using Vollsterndich. As for Vandenreich, the W is the *actual* correct letter if you want to translate German - "vanden" is utter gibberish, "wanden" means "hidden." Hence, it's the "hidden empire". "Vandenreich" is "vanden empire."

Anyways, you guys can't just cherry pick which translations you prefer. Choose one: Japanese, which is "Wandenreich and Vollstanding" or English which is "Vandenreich and Vollsterndich."

I'm not really *that* interesting... Or a car salesman, for that matter.

Wanden doesn't mean hidden. Vanden and Wanden are both non existent words. Wandenreich and Vandenreich is simply a case of spell my name with S. While Vollständig and Vollsterndich are not. One of the two is correct.

But since you mentioned it, lets change it to Wandenreich and Vollständig then.

Edited by bandersnitch

• sigh*

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wA4nden

"Wanden" is the plural form of "wand" - which means "wall." Thus, the most accurate translation is "walled empire." Now goggle "vanden" and tell me what you get. Hint: Not a damn thing.

Now that's not to say that I disagree. In fact, I agree with you *because* Wandenreich is not only the official concrete spelling as confirmed by Kubo himself, but is also the only one that makes sense translation-wise. So, by all means, change it to "Wandenreich" and "Vollstanding." Though it'll be quite a bit of work.

That's not to say you won't run into a problem though: wyldchild has a serious hard-on for the Viz translation (this is the same fool who fought tooth and nail for "Zolo" on the One Piece pages). He'll do whatever he can to make sure it's "Vandenreich."

Edited by InterestingCarSalesman I'm not really *that* interesting... Or a car salesman, for that matter.

Actually the Plural of Wand is Wände, not Wanden. Wanden is a completly made up word. I'm german, so I know what I'm talking about. And Wandenreich doesn't mean walled-off empire, it is the hidden empire, at least that's what the kanji say.

Also you already changed the word Vollständig to Vollsterndich. You should've waited more than a day to change it. I'm not that familiar with the functions, but isn't there some option to reverse things?

One could also decided by a majority vote, whether it should be Viz or japanese (though with Bleach over, I wonder how many would actually care).

If it's any consolation, at least I'll be here to vote for it lol. I say go with the proper spellings: Wandenreich and Vollstanding.

I'm not really *that* interesting... Or a car salesman, for that matter.

So I asked in the forum. Let's see what will happen.

Lille Barro is also under What Happened to the Mouse? and I think he is more important than BG 9. Though in case both are not minor enough for the mouse, what about Uncertain Doom? Would other Sternritter also be an example of Uncertain Doom, since I think that a few had ambiguous enough fates (namely, Giselle, Liltotto, Askin, Bazz-B and Bambietta), that the reader can't be sure if they actually died or not?

Edited by bandersnitch

I think Uncertain Doom would work. The problem is basically the Left Hanging trope, but Left Hanging would manifest as Uncertain Doom for several characters (including Harribel). Yeah, Uncertain Doom looks much more relevant than Mouse.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

So for Lille and BG 9 it would be like this:

Lille fell to the Seretei after his fight with Shunsui ended, where he transformed into a flamboyance of flamingo-esque birds. He was then confronted then by a zombied Kira. It is unknown what happened to either of them afterwards, whether or one of them killed the other or if they caught in the destruction of the Seretei thanks to Yhwach.

BG 9 was last seen to be executed alongside Cang Du, but after Haschwalth injured Cang Du, the scene cut away. While it can be assumed that both died that way, several moments during the war hint that at least one of them survived.

Should Uncertain Doom also apply to the other Sternritter I mentioned? Unlike with Urahara for example, where the lack of resolution was because of the rushed final, we can't know if Kubo intended them to die during their respective scenes or if he wanted to pull a similiar stunt like with Harribel at the end of FKT, where they simply survived off-screen.

The respective entries would be like this:

Askin: A more subtle example than usual. He was thought to be killed by Grimmjow. But later, when Nel jumped into the Giftball to safe those inside, she sensed four different Reiatsu. At first it seems that she meant Urahara, Yoruichi, Grimmjow and Yuushiro, but then one remembers that Yuushiro was never inside the Giftball and last seen on the center platform in front of the castle, a location far away from Askin's Giftball. This consequently would mean that Askin was the fourth person and still not dead. It is thus unknown if Nel somehow saved Askin and whether or not he fell victim to Yhwach's second Auswahlen.

Bambietta: Her fate after Giselle smashed her head. While she looks noticeably limp and blank-faced, Giselle noted earlier that she is already dead. So even that may not have killed her. After the Auswahlen she was hugged by Giselle, who stated that Bambietta won't die, because she herself won't die. With Giselle's own fate being uncertain, it's unknown what the actual status of Bambietta is.

Liltotto/Bazz-B: He/She was last seen lying on the ground and bleeding and losing conscious. But their wounds looked rather survivable, especially compared to what other characters managed to survive. He/She was furthermore in the proximity of Orihime, and thus could have been healed by her.

Giselle: Giselle was last seen defeated on the ground and bleeding heavily. But because of her abilities it is unknown whether she is actually dead, simply knocked out or just playing possum. Giselle was furthermore in the proximity of Orihime, and thus could have been healed by her.

Would they apply to Uncertain Doom or is Left Hanging more applyable?

There's no reason why Uncertain Doom can't be applied across the board to all relevant characters. My main issue with Mouse was that almost no-one classified as a Mouse.

My preference for Left Hanging is purely just to contain everything under a single example on the work page, but that's a hold over from when these pages were racking up so many tropes they kept having to be split into new pages. We were always trying to save space back then. With the manga finished, that's not likely to be a problem any more.

If you do decide to apply Uncertain Doom to each character you think should have it, I'm not going to object. I would suggest under Giselle's entry that part of the ambiguity with her fate is the fact her tongue was out in her final panels and she appeared to be lapping blood - which is what she does to heal. We just don't know if she did actually heal or not.

I would give your examples a grammar check before adding them, as some of them need a bit of a clean-up, but I don't have any problem with the content.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

If what is written is true, I would say that it does.

The question is whether or not it's true.

Her first scene does have her smiling, but she's criticising Bambietta and using foul language. From then on, we see a range of expressions from her - shocked, horrified, grimacing, smiling, insulting, angry, screaming, solemn - depending on the scene and situation. Her expressions are often shared by one or more characters as appropriate to the scene. Sometimes she does deadpan snark - but she's often not the only one in the scene doing it.

One example: when Yhwach defeats her, she makes a stoic ticked-off complaint about Bazz-B, then her face is shadowed, then she smiles, grimaces and collapses.

All the manga seems to be doing is just letting us get to know her full personality as we see more of her. The first scene is rarely the total reveal of a character's entire personality but the above example seems to be acting like that's the case. What does come out of the fight scenes is that she seems to be a better leader than Bambietta (who initially appeared like she might be the group's leader) and that she's prone to analysing heavily throughout battle.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

The only time she was really emotional was when she got Auswahlened, which stoof out given how reserved and bored she had seemed throughout the entire encounter.

During her first meeting with Bambi her default expression and establishing character moment showcases her cheerfulness and childishness when she criticises Bambietta. Besides her fight with Kenpachi (her 2nd appearance when Kubo hadn't really settled down on her characterisation) her default mode seems to be 'bored' rather than 'cheerful' or the 'unflappable smile' initially mentioned in her profile description.

During all later situations where she commented on her comrades she has always spoken in deadpan sarcasm or snark, and I can hardly imagine the same Liltotto making a happy comment about sweets to Bambietta when criticising her. Kubo seemed settled on making her The Stoic after some point and her consistent demeanor throughout the battle with Ichigo and the Gotei is something I feel worth noting in the tropes section.

There is a very clear change in demeanor as a whole. The first Liltotto we saw can hardly be associated with the bored snarker we saw later, even in the same situation.

Her characterisation is not as linear as your post implies. She displays a range of expressions and attitudes throughout the manga. What does become clear that wasn't revealed in her first appearance is that she's more of a leader than Bambietta and that she analyses fights more than the other girls. She does deadpan snark more than the other girls do, but not exclusively, and others are often snarking with her. Besides, if snark = stoic, every single character in Bleach would be The Stoic.

For example:

There are at least 8 chapters where she displays a range of emotions or expressions that include: smiling (not just the first chapter, but when assessing Ichigo or her defeat in her final scene), grinning while killing shinigami, shock (often caused by Ichigo, but also by Bazz-B, Pepe, Robert and Yhwach), deadpan snark (often shared by at least one other character in the scene), gritting her teeth or grimacing (ordering the attack on Ichigo, or just before she collapses in her final scene), unhappiness (analysing Ichigo, her expression is shared by Meninas), Disbelief-style snark (entire group, even Giselle), horrified screaming (when Pepe hits Meninas), enraged screaming (when betrayed by Yhwach), one expression that is an anime/manga classic (the over-the-top-wide-mouthed 'declaration/announcement' look), and one scene where she's battered and subdued and Giselle openly comments on what her expression means.

There are at least 3 chapters where she's so busy stuffing her face that her mood is going to be pure interpretation by fans.

There are at least 12 chapters where scenes occur that involve a subdued expression, which can be interpreted in a number of ways by fans because of the situations in which they occur, and her expression is often shared by another character in the scene, or can be seen on other characters' faces in the same or similar situations: concentration (attacking or analysing, this expression has been seen on Meninas's face when she's attacking), solemn, unhappy, stoic, coldly furious (her reaction to Pepe may be Tranquil Fury, but it's definitely the Shounen/action film classic of the 'slow, implaccable walk towards the enemy that's about to get his arse kicked'), etc.

There is one scene which probably can be interpreted unambiguously as stoic - it's the scene where the shinigami and quincies confront each other. She does a moment of analysis, which can interpreted as concentration, focus, solemn or stoic, but then the characters all charge in for the attack. The quincies are given a mosic panel of their faces. Eight quincies, and six of them look solemn/stoic. It's the mood of the scene, not proof that Liltotto has undergone a personality change from her first appearance.

Is Kubo refining the personalities of his characters the more they appear? Yes, we've seen it in every character in the story. To the extent where this trope kicks in? Only if we're talking Kubo's growing experience with his own work - which wouldn't single out any individual character.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Isn't the minimum three tropes? If you can think of more than three tropes for him, then you can probably add him.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Well Shaz is the only Ritter not seen on the color spread and given that he is a Gremmy creation in the novel its pretty obvious Kubo accepts Naritas work as canon. Plus Kubo wrote the chapter 520.5 which showcased Kira being worked on by Mayuri which is exactly what happens in the novel. Plus its no less canon than the anime filler. so it should be put up.

We haven't been troping the Spirits Are Always With You events as part of canon, so it's inconsistent to do one and not the other. That's why we need a consensus on what is going to be troped.

For the record, however, Shaz's absence from the cover picture has not been explained by Kubo, and even if it is because Shaz is a figment of Gremmy's imagination, that doesn't mean Narita is correct about everything else. Look at the Kenpachi novel. Narita turned out to be completely wrong about why Kenpachi powers up as a result of fights.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

well we should start then. its apart of Bleach so it should be documented, canon or not. Also the fact the other novel hasnt been documented im sure is that its waaaaaay longer and hasnt been fully translated. The Shaz/Kira one is already fully translated and is much shorter.

And yeah well this novel doesn't contradict anything we already know. And again, canonocity doesn't matter. That garbage Invading Army contradicts canon too.

Edited by InvadersMustDie

I've contacted the Bleach thread on the forums to raise the question for discussion.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Per the Bleach thread, the consensus is that the 13 Blades material, along with Narita's short story, should be troped, but the example should make it clear where the information is coming from, given that it's not coming from Kubo's work.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

That isn't quite what he said, either (according to the Mangastream translation). He said Haschwalth can't absorb Reishi "around [him] and make it his own power". He never said anything about Haschwalth not being able to take away the reishi or spiritual powers of others, and the last part about "making it his own power" is very specific wording. However, I suppose that the latter could be inferred from the former, but since this disagreement is about making the most absolutely accurate and thorough entry possible, I'd leave out the inference.

Other than that, the rewrite is fine. Especially since we have no idea how Haschwalth's powers have developed in the intervening years.

Edited by KingZeal

Yeah, I was trying to accommodate all the translations I've read, which is why I think it's quite murky at the moment. How about this?

• Power Nullifier: Yhwach claims Haschwalth possess the same ability as himself, to share power, which is why he cannot absorb reishi to make himself more powerful. Yhwach adds that, unlike himself, Hashwalth cannot take back the power he shares. The first "give and take" example that Haschwalth displays occurs when he shuts off Cang Du's special ability before killing him. The confrontation occurrs after night falls and Haschwalth takes on Yhwach's abilities at night.

Would that fit the multiple translations better?

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

That looks good. Thank you very much.

There's just one small problem with that interpretation... Yhwach's power only jumps to Haschwalth the moment when he falls asleep, not once night falls (as seen when Haschwalth gains The Almighty's eyes after finishing off Bazz-B). And since Yhwach was standing right next to Haschwalth when he was performing the execution in question, his power shouldn't have transferred yet... I'd say it has more to do with his letter's power, whatever it is than Yhwach's powers being transferred to him.

Discussion pages are not guaranteed to get replies. You need a bit more context to establish its nature.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I've had examples removed for the same reason you're concerned about, so I'm not one of those types.

I removed it because we don't know enough. Bazz-B talked about how hard he was training at sword and bow, not whether that skill was amazing compared to others with those skills. They're kids, living in isolation, Bazz-B wouldn't have had much opportunity to make such a comparison, and he was still dismissing Haschwalth has being able to do anything no matter how hard he trained. So, that only tells us Haschwalth is a Determinator.

The fight between them suggests a large difference in power. In this story, power differences trump skill if large enough (Kenpachi's a poster child). Bazz-B had also been partially de-powered by Yhwach and Haschwalth was either about to take on Yhwach's power or had already done so (night was falling). The power difference between them could have been large.

Personally, I think he probably is a Master Swordsman, I just don't see how those two scenes are good examples of it. By themselves, anyway.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I would say put Yhwach as his own page, then split the Sternritter from B through G and H through Z.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Moving Yhwach on his own page was good and all, but doesn't mitigate the remaining 250k+ characters in the long run. We'll eventually have to get back on this issue soon.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Upload the new pics, I would say.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

I agree with Wyldchyld, but for different reasons. The entry reads as though it's viewer interpretation, which doesn't fit the trope.

It's under Guenael's folder so as to keep spoilers to a minimum.

Her true sex is unknown at this point but her gender is definitely female since (s)he identifies as such.

Some people want to watch the world burn... I am one of them ;)

Greetings,

while I do not personally know, maybe the forum topic can help out there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

It might be Prudent to split the Vandenreich in two, similar to how the Soul Society is split from Squads 1-7 and 8-13

Spilt it from A-M and N-Z

Edited by 96.125.230.188 I'm A Pervert not an Asshole!

Page is not large enough to warrant a split yet. Unless it nears a 500,000 character count, which is the stated limit before splitting.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Is there a trope that defines one character's uncanny resemblance to another character from a different work, but unintentionally? Because if so, then it looks an awful lot like Writing Around Trademarks' description.

I know that Captain Ersatz and Expy (namely Char Clone, Fountain of Expies and Rei Ayanami Expy) are some of the more used tropes on this wiki, but by definition they don't exactly concur with just physical resemblance.

Captain Ersatz is for when a character obviously resembles another physically and in personality/motives/background/actions, often done to avoid copyright infringements.

Expy is when the character in question is deliberately based on another character of another, older series.

Edited by 132.204.240.2 "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

We don't have an "unintentional" page, although pretty much all the "reference" tropes are misused as such.

The example Wyldchyld put up here even admits that the similarity is weak; I'll go ahead and say that it's a shoehorn.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

El hombre already lost this battle when he passed the Godwin Event Horizon, but anyway, I also vote shoehorning.

An unintentional resemblance "trope" would really be trivia, and problematic.

Re: Godwin's Law. Wyldchyld was part of the Nazi death camps was he? He gassed Jews to death and helped out with disposing of them in incinerators? Very poor form indeed.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

^Duh, reread the comment. He only sent TROPES to the death camps.

Regardless of the context such a comment should be backed up with, y'know, evidence. Calling someone a Nazi would likely have the police look the other way were they to get a smack in the mouth, that's how bad it is.

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

Kubo does sometimes talk about his interests and hobbies in interviews, so for all I know he could have mentioned something about western comics that would validate it. I understand the fan association. I've called him "Gordon" myself ("Sanders", too), but my main concern was the "similarities mostly end there" part of the example, which did imply fan association.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

In that case, why not put a smaller entry?

• Shout-Out: His glasses, mustache, choice of clothing and hairstyle all remind some readers of Jim Gordon.

Edited by 132.204.240.2 "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

"Reminds some readers" is not Shout-Out.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I rest my case, then.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Little heads up on this, El hombre was completely unapologetic in the edit ban thread and basically flat out stated he was going to use sock puppets to ban evade and keep up his behavior. So if anyone spots a "new account" starting the same shenanigans, use the moderator assistance tool (under "tools" on the left side) to alert the management. Don't bother warring with him to clean up — the mods can bounce him and revert the page.

Edited by 69.136.247.136

Might want to cool the hostility a little.

Anyway, I'm personally unconcerned with which direction we go in. I do not really think it makes a difference, so I wouldn't mind seeing some other opinions on the matter. Either way, after this, can we please just let it rest?

Pros to Vandenreich

1. Name used by people releasing the manga in English
2. Name that more readers are likely to be familiar with

Pros to Wandenreich

1. Actual official romanization of a word that is neither English nor Japanese
2. Actually means something, unlike Vandenreich

I wasn't being hostile. :X Sarcastic a wee bit, but certainly not hostile.

If there are Japanese-language paratextual sources where the Wandenreich spelling is used, please please please link them. No sarcasm in that statement, just that many of us are only working from scanslations and the published Viz volumes. I was using those as my canon sources, plus the decision handed down from the mods the last time the spelling question came up in favor of Vandenreich.

Not here for an edit war. Just tired of people getting snippy at those of us who don't have access to materials not readily available within the chapters themselves or linked on TV Tropes for reference.

Edited by 75.71.191.244

Needs a moderator to revert the changes made recently.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

I can do that, but I want to be absolutely sure - hence, I am asking the Bleach thread about the spelling.

eta: Nevermind, there was a request on Ask The Tropers. So did it.

Edited by 188.63.82.184 "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Yes. However, I don't know whether to edit the page or not, because it looks like the Sealed King isn't intended as a translation here.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

Mistake in posting. Disregard.

Edited by 12.239.13.140

Removed Soldats tropes from the Vandenreich page to this page, to discuss:

---

• Badass Army: The majority of the 2,000 or so deaths in Sereitei were courtesy of the mop up crew.
• Curb-Stomp Battle: They utterly annihilate thousands of shinigami in practically no time, like a tempest.
• Elite Mooks: Subverted, as they are the common soldiers of the Vandenreich. But compared to common soldiers of Soul Society, hell yes they're Elite Mooks.
• The Faceless
• Gas Mask, Longcoat: The Vandenreich as a whole is largely inspired by Nazi Germany, but the Soldat are the most overt representation - nearly mirroring the Fallschirmjäger save for the white color of their uniforms.
• Sealed Army In A Shadow: They burst out from Glasses Quincy's shadow.

---

The Soldats section are group tropes, not character tropes. The Soldats themselves are a group, not individual characters. The group tropes appear on the Main Bleach pages. Group tropes were removed from character pages a long time ago because they belong on the main Bleach pages.

This section also includes Zero Context Examples, which were part of a wiki-wide project to clear up. They had been cleaned up on the Bleach pages so should not have been readded.

Edited by 2.97.133.203 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Unless there's a Soldat who's actually a Stern Ritter, I don't think the Soldats should be added.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

I think the closest we have to an individual Soldat character might be the woman Haschwalth was talking to, but we don't know if she's a Soldat or if her role will end up being fleshed out. If she does end up having an identifiable role and is a Soldat, we can probably end up adding her to the Others folder where Luders and Ebern are placed.

Unless she turns out to be a Stern Ritter, in which case my post is moot anyway.

Edited by 2.97.133.203 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

There could be a commander for the Soldats (Gas Mask, Longcoat and all) in the same way the Jagdarmee had Opie as its commander. By which, we would add him to the page under either Others or Stern Ritters (if he does have a letter).

If there are more Arrancars working for the Wandenreich, we should make a folder separate for them, too.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Well, I think Luders, Ebern and that woman are the only ones we've seen that haven't been identified as Stern Ritter. We don't know what Luders and Ebern classified as and we don't know if the woman will become a character in her own right. The Others folder is probably fine for now since it's not exactly overloaded. If Kirge is the only Jagdarmee who ever gets characterised, he could probably end up being moved into either the Others or the Stern Ritter folders (probably the Stern Ritter folder). But that's a discussion for the future if it ever becomes relevant.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

All we know is that there are Stern Ritters, Jagdarmee (meaning the guys with Opie's garb), Arrancars with Quincy weapons, the Gas Mask Mooks and the soldiers whose faces are revealed.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Yeah. Are we agreed on removing the Soldat and leaving them for the main Bleach pages, and addressing the rest as and when it becomes necessary in the manga?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I always figured that Pragmatic Villainy could qualify if the character was pragmatic enough to be a villain when it suited them. Unless that's supposed to be an inversion, but you have a point on the other three.

Character Tic was one I was iffy about. He does enjoy referencing numbers a lot, so shall we have it as Verbal Tic instead?

Edited by 50.138.2.230 In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Given that he was mainly bringing the audience up to speed, it might be a one off. If he keeps doing it, and it turns out to be evidence he's a robot or cyborg, I'll probably concede that he does have a verbal tic, although I'd imagine his three question issue is what will be the verbal tic. I'd wait for now and see if he keeps doing it.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

All right, if he references numbers again in his next appearance, we'll add Verbal Tic to it.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Not if he references numbers, it's if he uses numbers in a way that isn't necessary but which is quirky. For example, in this conversation, a lot of the numbers were either just rattling off daten for the benefit of the reader or focusing on the number of times he'd asked the same question - it's this focusing on how many times he's repeating a question that may be the verbal tic.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Good point. We'll see if, at least, the number three is his quirk.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

deleted

Edited by WarGriff

Post placed in wrong location.

Edited by 2.100.117.243 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Those tropes were moved to the main page

I'm not engaging in an Edit War, so I'll respond to Serroco here.

Bio-Augmentation - Quilge mentioned reporting back to the Emperor so he'd know to get the Blut adjusted. Interpreting it as definitely this trope solely because there's a blood connection is guessing.

Villain Teleportation: All we know is that the shadow closes over and when it clears, the character is gone. Yamamoto did indicate they were gone fast and that it's weird the shakonmaku couldn't affect their movements. He had no answer for it. Mayuri doesn't yet either. Interpreting it as definitely this trope is guessing.

Serroco's guessing might turn out to be right, but right now it's WMG.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Hero Killer is about a Bad Ass who's The Dreaded because he defeats or kills established characters, ala "Plot Armor will not protect you from this guy". The Dreaded is about someone who's feared in-universe (ala impact of reputation in-universe), but they don't have to kill or defeat anyone on-screen to garner such a response (like Unohana).

The Worf Effect: The power level of Juhabach (or Royd, as it turns out) had already been established once they defeated Zaraki off-screen prior to the encounter. During the encounter, Yamamoto pretty much mopped the floor with him, until it's revealed that Royd was the decoy the real Juhabach was talking to Aizen at the time. I'd say it fits.

Villain Teleportation: When the shadow closes over and when it clears, the character is gone. That's teleportation, because, as even you said, "when the shadow closes over and when it clears, the character is gone."

Edited by Serocco In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Hero Killer requires the characters all knowing of the person to be terrified for the very reason that there's a good chance he can and will kill them. The only people who knew in advance were Yamamoto and Mayuri who didn't seem terrified of him. Now everyone knows and he's killed Yamamoto. But Ichigo wasn't terrified to face him, so we still don't know if this trope will happen.

The Worf Effect is about a known protagonist taking the fall to establish the power level of an unknown enemy. Royd/Juhabach mopping the floor with Kenpachi is an example of Kenpachi suffering The Worf Effect. Yamamoto mopping the floor with Royd isn't.

Villain Teleportation. How is the character gone? The "how" is a mystery. Deciding "gone" = "teleported" is guesswork.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Characters don't have to know the Hero Killer in advance in order to fear him. Look at the 13th Division, including Shino and Yuki, who had a Mass "Oh, Crap!" once they saw Juhabach, because they knew damn-well he was gonna kill them. Sure, they're rookies, but that still counts, because Hero Killer never specifies who has to be afraid of someone like Juhabach. Also never specifies if the characters have to know the villain in advance - only that they know he can and will butcher them.

If The Worf Effect doesn't apply to villains, then how about Diminishing Villain Threat (but as a subversion)?

Villain Teleportation: The "how" is a mystery, but I think it's pretty clear that they're teleporting away. There's no other explanation for why they disappear through those shadows.

Edited by Serocco In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Hero Killer says it's a villain becoming The Dreaded by getting his hands dirty which is the main difference between the two tropes and that creates an Anyone Can Die fear in everyone around him. This has yet to happen with Juhabach. He's a likely candidate to be sure, but it's premature to think he is yet considering Ichigo didn't react with terror to him just because of what he'd done.

The Red Shirts were initially confused by the whole thing and had to be told there had been a quincy massacre. It was only as they realised they were being massacred that they went into meltdown and that was over the entire invasion rather than any individual quincy. Knight of Cerebus (already listed) and Genocide Backfire (main page not here) cover this.

On Villain Teleportation, I agree it's likely, but we're not supposed pre-empt tropes. There are possible explanations. What if the shadow pulls them into a tunnel between worlds and slams the door shut behind it? Like shinigami dangai travel. The quincy disappear but not by teleporting.

I don't think Villain Decay is in effect yet, it's too soon, so I don't think we can say there's a subversion.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Ichigo didn't react in terror towards Aizen in their first encounter either. He did later on, because by then, he knew that Aizen was out of his league. The same can easily happen with Juhabach, who hasn't even fought anyone that seriously yet.

All I know for sure is that the Soldats came through the shadow as if it was a portal. On that instance, it could be Quincies manipulating Reishi and turning it into something like a Garganta. On the other hand, Ebern wrapped it over himself so he could escape Ichigo, something that portals don't do, which is why I feel that Villain Teleportation is in effect when they wrap themselves around those shadows.

I know it's not Villain Decay now, but at the time, it counted because of how easily Yamamoto was handling Royd. It's just a suggestion, though.

Edited by Serocco In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

"He did later on" - that's where Aizen became the Hero Killer. I agree this may become the case with Juhabach. It makes sense. We're talking about the future though.

Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

On the Red Shirt thing, I'm talking about how they had a Mass "Oh, Crap!" once they saw Juhabach appear out of nowhere and destroy a large part of their buildings.

Aizen was never The Dreaded to anyone other than Ichigo, though. Everyone else hated him more than anything else.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

On th Red Shirt thing, I'm talking about the same thing. :)

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.